....Evolution is SCIENCE, plain and simple and belongs in Science class.....
If that were true, why is it that almost every "scientific" paper dealing with origins contains faith constructs such as "if we assume", "it is believed that", "scientist X believes or thinks", "in the opinion of (insert big name PhD here)" and other constructs of this nature. Pick ten or so "scientific papers" at random and carefully go through them and underline how many times such types of expressions of belief are found.
In science I want to hear what is KNOWN, not somebody's belief, assumptions or opinions. When it comes to origins we KNOW nothing, because nobody alive today was actually there to observe and measure. Extrapolating from what we see and measure today to the distant past is based on the assumptions (faith) that nothing has changed that could affect the end result and our conclusions. Radioactive dating, for example is based on the assumption (belief) that the fundamental "constants" that govern radioactivity have NOT changed over all time past. There is no way of KNOWING this. Certainly in the minute amount of time we have observed radioactivity it has not changed, but that doesn't mean it might not have over long eons of time.
We simply don't KNOW how life began, but there are various beliefs about it. Nobody except God was around when He created the big bang or however He did it. He has only told us that He did it, but not exactly how he did. So we can believe our own intellectual speculations about it, or we can simply believe that God did it somehow and admit that we don't and can't exactly know. Science is knowledge and not belief. Calling a belief science doesn't make it so, but it is simply religion, faith.
My objection to evolution is not so much that it is taught in schools, but that it is taught as science, when in reality it is the faith upon which atheism is based. Evolution is the religion of the secular humanists and it is supported by my tax money. Creationism and evolution could be taught as two beliefs concerning beginnings. However the proponents of evolution have brainwashed a large percentage of the population and our government into believing that their teaching is scientific and factual. But then the Nazis succeeded in brainwashing a large fraction of the German population that Jews were in fact inferior and could therefore be dealt with accordingly.
.....but this also would imply that they would have had to understand the message...........
Obedience has to do first with trust in the one who makes a rule or restriction. Trust is the outworking of belief. Someone who doesn't trust me, won't believe me either. If I tell a toddler not to touch a hot stove, he/she will not if he/she believes/trusts me. If there is doubt, the the kid MAY touch the stove. If there is flat out distrust/belief, then the child WILL touch the stove just to find out whether I was truthful and/or know what I am talking about.
Adam did NOT trust God, take His word as truth and that is what the sin was. He in effect called God a liar by unbelief and mistrust. The statement "Thus says the Jehovah" appear innumerable times in the Bible. People today do not believe that God has indeed spoken and thereby STILL call Him a liar. God will not hold our failure to understand against us, only our failure to believe and trust Him completely.
If your doctor tells you to take a certain medicine you take it, not because you understand exactly how the medicine works or if it is even the right medicine, but because you believe and trust the doctor. Our lives are based more on faith and trust than we care to admit. When you get on an airliner, you have faith and trust in all the people who have worked on that plane and the fight crew. You don't KNOW if they all did their job correctly or if the pilot can really fly that plane. You trust and believe in them. You don't KNOW if that bridge you are about to drive across will hold your vehicle, but you trust that it will.
.....Apple do not come close to offering the kind of support that corporate buyers want.......
So What? Right now they are making so much money they couldn't care less if the Bank of America or any other big enterprise doesn't buy their computers. Most of the ossified corporate buyers have not yet figured out that the new Macs are a lot more compatible with their existing Windows infrastructure. Large corporate IT department could be cut down to a third, because of the integrated hardware-software nature of Macs makes for fewer support headaches. What corporate IT boss would recommend Macs to their CEO, knowing full well that such a move would reduce their IT empire and budget by two thirds? There are actually some enterprises and especially education establishments that do use mostly Macs.
Apple has NO financial incentive whatsoever to allow clones again. They do have a number of disincentives. A big one is increased support costs. When a clone customer sees the OSX Apple logo, they'll call Apple to try to get their problem fixed rather than the clone maker. Apple would be subject to the hardware-software blame game that plagues the Windows world. Apple market share is commonly compared to ALL other PC makers. That is bogus. Compare the market share with Dell, HP, Sony and the others. In that light, Apple is doing rather well and their profit margins are better than any of the others.
.....Apple completely controls the entire hardware system, Apple completely controls the software,.......
Indeed they do and that is absolutely great. Ford builds a complete car, so does Honda and all the other automobile makers. Kenmore makes a whole refrigerator. It includes the compressor that runs it and the thermostat that controls it. If your Kenmore refrigerator breaks you don't go to the compressor maker or complain to the maker of the thermostat. If your Dell computer breaks, they'll first try to blame software for the problem, which it is more often than not and on that grounds try to weasel out on their warranty. There was an article right here on/. about Dell not wanting to honor *any* hardware warranty if they delivered their hardware with Linux installed. When you buy an Apple product, they DO take responsibility for ALL of it.
In what other industry are consumers expected to agree to a multi-page legalese gobbledygook document telling then exactly how they may or may not use the product? Do I get permission from Honda to drive my Accord to Salt Lake City or anyplace else? Do you have to call your TV maker or the broadcast station for permission to watch or 'activate' your refrigerator before it will allow you to put food into it?? I didn't first have to 'activate' my Macbook from Apple. Why did you have to do this with your PC crap? Why is the computer industry allowed to get away with stuff no other industry is? They have sold a bill of goods to the consumers and we have fallen for it, hook line and sinker.
As for monopoly, you've got to be kidding! Since when does less than 10% of a market constitute a monopoly? There nothing that prevents anyone from starting a computer company like Apple which makes a COMPLETE computer, hardware AND software. MS has enough money and has indeed copied Apple in the end to end game computer market. Apple wasn't the first with a portable music player, but they make a product that a lot of people vote for with their wallet. Why? Simple. It works and nobody needs a degree in rocket science to figure out how to make it perform its functions. Apple operates a bit more independently from the rest of computerdom.
.....was around long before the human mind was......
In the case of DNA and life it is not the human mind, but the mind of God. Now there is lots of disagreement about the nature of God or even of His existence. All arguments about this is religious and has nothing to do with science.
My main point is that the dogma of evolution, especially macro evolution, is a religious doctrine that happens to be the state supported religion of the USA. It is successful in this because it has managed to clothe itself in the mantle of science.
We readily acknowledge that all human activity first begins in a human mind. Why then deny that the natural complexity of the created order, especially life, also first began in a mind? Denial of this simple, logical extension is at the core of evolutionary dogma.
The first verse of the Bible elegantly tells us that God made time (beginning) space (heavens) and the earth (matter-energy). Scientists speculate how it might have happened in a big bang or whatever, but that foundational verse has never been refuted by scientific observations.
Once we are willing to admit that God was and still is involved we can try to figure out how He may have proceeded. It doesn't make the process of discovery and learning any less exciting and challenging. God encourages us humans in the Biblical text to look deeply into His creation and learn something about Him, the creator of it all. Faith and science are not contradictory, but augment and enhance each other, each in its distinct way.
.....Actually computer models have shown how you can get DNA from RNA.......
Computer models make a big pile of simplifying assumptions which have yet to be made to match the incredible complexity of the DNA-RNA chemistry. "Assumption" is one of the the scientists code word for faith or belief. Science must be based on facts, experiments and realtime PRESENT observations. It s dangerous and often just plain WRONG to extrapolate to the distant past or the future. As soon as an element of faith comes into science, it is no longer science but religion. Anytime you read the word "assume" or similar terms in a so called scientific paper, it becomes religious faith. This is especially true when dealing with the questions of origins.
....Man to be able to join the ranks of the angels.......
Except that God tells us in His word, the Bible that man's destiny is to rule over and judge even the Angels. That's what Lucifer did not want. He did not even want God to be ruler over him, let alone what he considered a creature inferior to himself. Jesus as Creator has every right to demand our obedience.
..... Is it the knowledge of good & evil that earned them the boot, or the disobedience?..........
The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit tells us that it was the disobedience. See Romans 5:19. They may have eaten from the TOL before they disobeyed. We are simply not told everything we want to know. Most likely they did.
It was not about good or evil, but whether they would believe God. They chose not to and most people are STILL choosing not to believe, thereby calling God a liar. It has nothing to do with understanding. It's like when Dad says NO to a kid. Which part of NO is so hard to grasp? If there are no consequences to disregarding the rules, what's the point of having any? Adam was not an infant. He chose to disbelieve and disregard God's word. People still do that today also.
.... the fossil evidence points a clearer dotted line to the existence of evolution......
BS. The very existence of fossils shows exactly the opposite. Nobody has ever made a fossil today nor even come forth with a viable mechanism for the making of one. When a living organism dies today, it is immediately attacked by microorganisms. It NEVER makes a fossil. Fossils are the result of rapid burial, such as in a catastrophe. Heat pressure and the exclusion of oxygen kill microorganisms and then allow fossils to form. The Bible relates of such a cataclysm, called the flood of Noah.
Evolution is a pure belief in the unobserved arising of information out of energy and matter. If you or anyone else can show me how information, such as DNA code, a computer program, a set of blueprints for a building, machine or bridge, a poem or novel can come into being, WITHOUT and NOT by the activity of a mind, I'd believe evolution.
The laws of physics, are pure information which determine the behavior of galaxies and atoms. Galaxies and atoms do not generate the laws of physics any more than ink and paper produce the works of Shakespeare, Beethoven or the Beatles.
The belief that everything arose in the mind of God is much more according to the way we ourselves live and operate. Everything we do or make first arises in our human minds.
....Why the PC world thinks the computer is some special case apart from every other fucking consumer product on the face of the planet is beyond me........
That's because other than Apple all computers are a comittee job based on the interpretions of human language as written in specifications. So which member of the comittee do you blame if it doesn't work? With Apple the blame is clear. This would no longer be true if clones were allowed.
......that gives me "an answer" as to why evil came from good/perfection in the very beginning.......
The Bible, in the NT speaks of "mysteries" such as as of God, evil, gospel, Christ, the Church, faith and others. Like any mystery these will eventually be cleared up. For now however, our understanding has been darkened by sin and imperfection and we are simply asked to believe the revelation that God HAS given us about Himself and our position.
Solomon, of whom we are told that he was the wisest man of his time boiled it down very succinctly:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
Do not let your understanding, or rather the lack thereof be a judge of whether the Bible is the Word of God and of your relationship to Him. Do not put your intellect in the place of God.
....... Everything is supposed to be a part of his divine plan. Everything.......
It is, but it isn't finished yet. The devil and the fall are just speed bumps along the way. He knew about them and solved the problem. In Genesis God tells us that He began it all. In Revelation He tells us how it will all end. He doesn't always fill in all the details we would like to know to our intellectual satisfaction, however. That is the reason why we just have to believe for now and trust Him.
.....Haven't we figured out by now religion and science don't mix? Copernicus, Galileo, Da Vinci,.......
They used to. The guys you mentioned as well as most early scientists were people of faith. True science consists of experiments and observations as we see them TODAY. We then by power of our reason and imagination extrapolate these into the past or into realms which science cannot access. Nobody was around when the Universe began and what the conditions then were. We use our reasoning power extrapolate todays conditions onto the past and onto the non-physical realms of which we are largely ignorant. Jesus tried to clothe spiritual concepts in physical analogies, but faced massive unbelief.
(...makes all sorts of references about the fact that time for God doesn't pass like it does for us humans...)
That is a perfect example. Einstein figured out that time is relative and varies with mass, acceleration, gravity and maybe other factors we have not yet discovered. He also figured out that time is a created thing, just as space-matter-energy are. The Bible tells us that God is outside of and apart from time. There are only two choices about how everything came to be. 1) the Universe, time-space-matter-energy created itself or 2) someone eternal, outside and apart from it created it.
You are allowed to chose which one you want to BELIEVE, but there is no way to prove either one.
......Since when did being a Christian mean that you have to literally believe everything in the Bible......
The question is on what basis can anyone decide what parts are truly the words of God and therefore must be believed and obeyed and which are not and can therefore be ignored? We are told that liars are damned to hell. Is that true or not? Can reason give us the answer?
If the basis is intellect, then that rises to the place of God. At the center of the Christian faith is the person and work of Jesus. If the accounts of Adam, Eve, Noah, Jonah and the other persons in the Bible are not factual literal historical figures and revelations on how they lived, then how can we be sure that Jesus was?
We cannot have it both ways. Either the entire Bible is an accurate message from God or it is not. Outside of our intellectual reasoning ability we have no independent basis for choosing which parts of the Bible to accept or reject. Most people, especially here on/. have chosen to elevate their power of reason to the position of being a judge over what God has said or not said. If the Bible is indeed the word of God, calling God a liar, based solely on brainpower, is a dangerous position I would rather not be in.
....I can easily believe in God. I can believe that God created this universe......
The key in your comment and most of them here in this thread is the word BELIEVE. Christians and evolutionists can really only believe. There is no way to prove or disprove one or other belief. Believers generally defend their belief, whether that belief is in the God of the Bible or something else. Some spend large sums of money, some blow up buildings and airplanes in order to propagate and convince others about their beliefs. Some clothe their beliefs as science and get the taxpayer to propagate their belief systems. Building a museum is considerably more benign than building bombs and guns.
The Bible predicts that Jesus Christ will return one day and take over control of the entire earth and all mankind. Until that day comes, we can all only argue about beliefs, but no one can prove a thing.
..... with limited application availability.......
I don't think there is even a single computer function or job that doesn't presently have a Mac equivalent program. There are of course some programs that run only on Windows systems, especially games. Even there, the really popular ones EVENTUALLY get ported to the Mac. Anyone who has a Mac and who also MUST use certain special Windows only software, can easily do so, either with boot camp or virtual machine software, such as from Parallels. I have been using a Windows only chat program called Paltalk. Recently I installed it under Parallels VM on my Macbook and it works just as well as it did on my desktop PC.
I wonder how a price comparison between a Mac running Windows and a Windows only PC could be fairly done. Such a Mac is in effect two computers in one. I feel I do not need antivirus software on the VM since its network exposure is only through Paltalk. All other Internet activity takes place on the much more secure MacOSX. The VM networks through the Mac, which also serves as a firewall in addition to the normal firewall supplied by our ISP. Even if the VM Windows installation did get infected or otherwise damaged, it is trivial to replace the Windows HD image file with a clean one.
If Apple were to license OSX, they would instantly have to deal with many of the support headaches Microsoft has to handle. The computer misbehaves and many hardware makers shove the responsibility off on the software. Since Apple makes it all, the customer has only one place to go for help.
........which is an upgrade-limiting gimmick.........
Other than RAM, what percentage of people upgrade their computer these days? Ten years ago, that was more common. The article was mainly about laptops and those don't upgrade much anyway. The mini is for a PC person who already has a serviceable monitor/keyboard/mouse who is tired of dealing with viruses, worms and other PC vermin and the performance sapping and extra cost anti-virus software needed try to defend their computer.
.......Shit, the low end machines have more grunt than any normal person requires anyway.........
Then why does Dell and all their competitors make high end machines? The article was comparing more or less similar machines at the higher prices. Right at the outset the writer states that if you want a cheap computer to not bother reading the rest of the article and just get a cheap PC. A Lexus and a Hyundai will get you from one end of town to the other in roughly the same amount of time. If all you want is to get across town, get a Hyundai or even better, ride the bus. Use a computer in your library.
.....Apple has terrible hardware/driver support.....
They support everything THEY make. Everything 99% of users need is built into their computers. So what if they don't support your no-name video card or special cell phone gizmo? Get support from the gadget maker and if they don't support it on a Mac, get a windows PC and cross your fingers that they do. If you use Linux, probably a fervent prayer to the computer gods won't help either.
.......I think it's time to allow companies to produce OS/X based clones.....
Obviously you are not a Mac user. Computers are much more than a piece of hardware with some software grafted on or in. They are a synergistic system. Apple is the ONLY personal computer maker who builds both as an integrated system "that just works". Why should they give up that exclusive advantage? Just to compete with MS for something nebulous called 'marketshare'?
By what logic do you suppose that allowing clones would help their high end hardware business? They have nothing to gain and lots to lose by trying to compete in the cutthroat PC business.
Belief in God is more than mental assent that He exists. We read in scripture that the demons believe that and tremble.
Belief includes complete implicit trust, as a little child who trusts his/her daddy and tries to please him at heart. The child is reassured of the fathers love even if he/she screws up and may need to feel the pain of discipline at times. We read that even Jesus, as the son of God had to, as a man learn submission and obedience to God the father by the sufferings and shame He was subject to, while here on earth. Because Jesus was willing, He has been given the highest position under God and invites those other humans wiling to follow Him, to share in that royal calling under His name.
If you tell God that you too are willing to become a follower of Jesus, with NO conditions, he will take you at your word, show Himself to you and assign to you a path that will come to glory with Him through suffering. Jesus doesn't promise His followers a flower strewn pathway through life, but to the contrary, present unfailing love in spite of suffering and exaltation with Him in the future. Be careful though, before you ask God this, for it will cost you everything. Jesus said it this way:
And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever will save his life shall lose it, but whoever will lose his life for My sake, he shall save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world and loses himself, or is cast away? (Matt. 9:23-25)
..... then he told his other prophets that he reserved the right to bring down flaming destruction, famine, pestilence and other destruction, instead........
Indeed He does and rightly so. I do not want this to turn into a long religious discussion./. isn't really the place for such.
Briefly, however, God is perfect and just. He is the Creator and as such He has the right to rule over His creation. For example, he condemns all breakers of His laws to death. One of these is telling lies, deliberate deception. So you, I and every person on this planet that has ever told a lie is guilty of and is sentenced to death. We are all on death row, awaiting execution. God could have left us in this state, but in His love He found a way to satisfy justice and be merciful. That is the purpose of Jesus death and resurrection. He took the sentence we all are under.
Full pardon and release is now available to all who choose to admit their guilt, believe in and freely accept and submit to the righteous rule of Jesus. I have accepted these conditions and therefore have received a full pardon, allowing me full present and future access to God and fellowship in the society of all others so forgiven of all wrongdoing.
Right now, the good and evil are mixed up together here on earth. There will be a separation. One place where there will only be good and another where there is nothing good. One is light the other is darkness, heaven and hell. You may choose now where you will be after that separation happens.
There are only two groups of people, those who have been forgiven and those still under sentence of death -- eternal death. Which group are you in?
They certainly do. An idea, totally new springs into some mind. The works of great composers, playwrights and other artists certainly are information that did not exist previously. Society has even developed a whole body of law concerning INTELLECTUAL property. The nature of IP is very different from physical things. The technology we have today ALL arose in the minds of countless individuals over time. Maybe YOU can tell me one or more examples how information arises WITHOUT the activity of mind. The very LAWS of physics are immaterial, yet govern all aspects of the physical universe. Those laws were formulated in a mind to govern our time-space-matter-energy universe before it came to be.
Software on a disk neither adds nor subtracts from the mass of that material information carrier. Information, in order to interact with us in the physical realm must be imposed in some way onto a physical object. That doesn't mean though that Information cannot exist apart from and beyond the physical. The information lies in the arrangement of bits or letters on a suitable carrier. If the information is encrypted, it is lost, unless the key can be discovered in some manner. Interpreting information involves MEANING. If I wrote this to you in German, it would not convey information to you, unless you know German or can find someone who does and will translate the message so you can understand it and possibly take some kind of action based on that message.
I can run Windows, Mac OSX, Linux, DOS and who knows what else all on the same hardware. Each of these gives the computer a distinct "personality" but in no way normally affects the physical structure of the hardware. Software (Information) can travel at the speed of light. If we knew of a physical carrier that could go any distance instantly, then the information imposed thereon would also. Information then is CERTAINLY different than matter-energy. There is no reason mind cannot exist apart from and independently from matter-energy. However, since we are limited to the physical right now, we could not interact with or in any way perceive a pure mind.
....Please show me any phrase in any scripture of any religion where God says "Hey, I am a nice guy.".......
If you would read the Bible you would learn of many statements by or about God that are much better than "I am a nice guy". I'll only give one quote and a few references you can look up if you wish.
1John 4:8 "The one who does not love has not known God. For God is love"
Science is not illogical, but limited. It is confined to exploring only the present time-space universe we inhabit. You assume (faith) that this present physical reality and its laws is all that exists. Even within this physical reality there are these things we call mind, spirit, information, software etc. These are all a separate class, apart from the matter-energy science deals with. These are not subject to the same laws, but have rules of their own. Concerning information in particular, there is no known law of nature, no known process, no known sequence of events, which can cause information to originate by itself in or from matter/energy. The material realm can contain and manipulate existing information, but only a mind can create it.
It is in this realm, that God, who is not physical, reveals certain things. One of these things is that the physical reality we study in science is temporary and will one day be replaced. Science has figured that out as you stated. We are told that after this universe dies, the game is NOT over, but the beginning of a new game at a very much higher level. We are told of this in the last book of the Bible in Revelation 21:1. Now you may choose not to believe anything written therein, but that is your business.
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....Evolution is SCIENCE, plain and simple and belongs in Science class.....
If that were true, why is it that almost every "scientific" paper dealing with origins contains faith constructs such as "if we assume", "it is believed that", "scientist X believes or thinks", "in the opinion of (insert big name PhD here)" and other constructs of this nature. Pick ten or so "scientific papers" at random and carefully go through them and underline how many times such types of expressions of belief are found.
In science I want to hear what is KNOWN, not somebody's belief, assumptions or opinions. When it comes to origins we KNOW nothing, because nobody alive today was actually there to observe and measure. Extrapolating from what we see and measure today to the distant past is based on the assumptions (faith) that nothing has changed that could affect the end result and our conclusions. Radioactive dating, for example is based on the assumption (belief) that the fundamental "constants" that govern radioactivity have NOT changed over all time past. There is no way of KNOWING this. Certainly in the minute amount of time we have observed radioactivity it has not changed, but that doesn't mean it might not have over long eons of time.
We simply don't KNOW how life began, but there are various beliefs about it. Nobody except God was around when He created the big bang or however He did it. He has only told us that He did it, but not exactly how he did. So we can believe our own intellectual speculations about it, or we can simply believe that God did it somehow and admit that we don't and can't exactly know. Science is knowledge and not belief. Calling a belief science doesn't make it so, but it is simply religion, faith.
My objection to evolution is not so much that it is taught in schools, but that it is taught as science, when in reality it is the faith upon which atheism is based. Evolution is the religion of the secular humanists and it is supported by my tax money. Creationism and evolution could be taught as two beliefs concerning beginnings. However the proponents of evolution have brainwashed a large percentage of the population and our government into believing that their teaching is scientific and factual. But then the Nazis succeeded in brainwashing a large fraction of the German population that Jews were in fact inferior and could therefore be dealt with accordingly.
.....but this also would imply that they would have had to understand the message...........
Obedience has to do first with trust in the one who makes a rule or restriction. Trust is the outworking of belief. Someone who doesn't trust me, won't believe me either. If I tell a toddler not to touch a hot stove, he/she will not if he/she believes/trusts me. If there is doubt, the the kid MAY touch the stove. If there is flat out distrust/belief, then the child WILL touch the stove just to find out whether I was truthful and/or know what I am talking about.
Adam did NOT trust God, take His word as truth and that is what the sin was. He in effect called God a liar by unbelief and mistrust. The statement "Thus says the Jehovah" appear innumerable times in the Bible. People today do not believe that God has indeed spoken and thereby STILL call Him a liar. God will not hold our failure to understand against us, only our failure to believe and trust Him completely.
If your doctor tells you to take a certain medicine you take it, not because you understand exactly how the medicine works or if it is even the right medicine, but because you believe and trust the doctor. Our lives are based more on faith and trust than we care to admit. When you get on an airliner, you have faith and trust in all the people who have worked on that plane and the fight crew. You don't KNOW if they all did their job correctly or if the pilot can really fly that plane. You trust and believe in them. You don't KNOW if that bridge you are about to drive across will hold your vehicle, but you trust that it will.
.....Apple do not come close to offering the kind of support that corporate buyers want.......
So What? Right now they are making so much money they couldn't care less if the Bank of America or any other big enterprise doesn't buy their computers. Most of the ossified corporate buyers have not yet figured out that the new Macs are a lot more compatible with their existing Windows infrastructure. Large corporate IT department could be cut down to a third, because of the integrated hardware-software nature of Macs makes for fewer support headaches. What corporate IT boss would recommend Macs to their CEO, knowing full well that such a move would reduce their IT empire and budget by two thirds? There are actually some enterprises and especially education establishments that do use mostly Macs.
Apple has NO financial incentive whatsoever to allow clones again. They do have a number of disincentives. A big one is increased support costs. When a clone customer sees the OSX Apple logo, they'll call Apple to try to get their problem fixed rather than the clone maker. Apple would be subject to the hardware-software blame game that plagues the Windows world. Apple market share is commonly compared to ALL other PC makers. That is bogus. Compare the market share with Dell, HP, Sony and the others. In that light, Apple is doing rather well and their profit margins are better than any of the others.
.....Apple completely controls the entire hardware system, Apple completely controls the software,.......
/. about Dell not wanting to honor *any* hardware warranty if they delivered their hardware with Linux installed. When you buy an Apple product, they DO take responsibility for ALL of it.
Indeed they do and that is absolutely great. Ford builds a complete car, so does Honda and all the other automobile makers. Kenmore makes a whole refrigerator. It includes the compressor that runs it and the thermostat that controls it. If your Kenmore refrigerator breaks you don't go to the compressor maker or complain to the maker of the thermostat. If your Dell computer breaks, they'll first try to blame software for the problem, which it is more often than not and on that grounds try to weasel out on their warranty. There was an article right here on
In what other industry are consumers expected to agree to a multi-page legalese gobbledygook document telling then exactly how they may or may not use the product? Do I get permission from Honda to drive my Accord to Salt Lake City or anyplace else? Do you have to call your TV maker or the broadcast station for permission to watch or 'activate' your refrigerator before it will allow you to put food into it?? I didn't first have to 'activate' my Macbook from Apple. Why did you have to do this with your PC crap? Why is the computer industry allowed to get away with stuff no other industry is? They have sold a bill of goods to the consumers and we have fallen for it, hook line and sinker.
As for monopoly, you've got to be kidding! Since when does less than 10% of a market constitute a monopoly? There nothing that prevents anyone from starting a computer company like Apple which makes a COMPLETE computer, hardware AND software. MS has enough money and has indeed copied Apple in the end to end game computer market. Apple wasn't the first with a portable music player, but they make a product that a lot of people vote for with their wallet. Why? Simple. It works and nobody needs a degree in rocket science to figure out how to make it perform its functions. Apple operates a bit more independently from the rest of computerdom.
.....was around long before the human mind was......
In the case of DNA and life it is not the human mind, but the mind of God. Now there is lots of disagreement about the nature of God or even of His existence. All arguments about this is religious and has nothing to do with science.
My main point is that the dogma of evolution, especially macro evolution, is a religious doctrine that happens to be the state supported religion of the USA. It is successful in this because it has managed to clothe itself in the mantle of science.
We readily acknowledge that all human activity first begins in a human mind. Why then deny that the natural complexity of the created order, especially life, also first began in a mind? Denial of this simple, logical extension is at the core of evolutionary dogma.
The first verse of the Bible elegantly tells us that God made time (beginning) space (heavens) and the earth (matter-energy). Scientists speculate how it might have happened in a big bang or whatever, but that foundational verse has never been refuted by scientific observations.
Once we are willing to admit that God was and still is involved we can try to figure out how He may have proceeded. It doesn't make the process of discovery and learning any less exciting and challenging. God encourages us humans in the Biblical text to look deeply into His creation and learn something about Him, the creator of it all. Faith and science are not contradictory, but augment and enhance each other, each in its distinct way.
.....Actually computer models have shown how you can get DNA from RNA.......
Computer models make a big pile of simplifying assumptions which have yet to be made to match the incredible complexity of the DNA-RNA chemistry. "Assumption" is one of the the scientists code word for faith or belief. Science must be based on facts, experiments and realtime PRESENT observations. It s dangerous and often just plain WRONG to extrapolate to the distant past or the future. As soon as an element of faith comes into science, it is no longer science but religion. Anytime you read the word "assume" or similar terms in a so called scientific paper, it becomes religious faith. This is especially true when dealing with the questions of origins.
....Man to be able to join the ranks of the angels .......
Except that God tells us in His word, the Bible that man's destiny is to rule over and judge even the Angels. That's what Lucifer did not want. He did not even want God to be ruler over him, let alone what he considered a creature inferior to himself. Jesus as Creator has every right to demand our obedience.
..... Is it the knowledge of good & evil that earned them the boot, or the disobedience? ..........
The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit tells us that it was the disobedience. See Romans 5:19. They may have eaten from the TOL before they disobeyed. We are simply not told everything we want to know. Most likely they did.
....how can it be about free will?......
It was not about good or evil, but whether they would believe God. They chose not to and most people are STILL choosing not to believe, thereby calling God a liar. It has nothing to do with understanding. It's like when Dad says NO to a kid. Which part of NO is so hard to grasp? If there are no consequences to disregarding the rules, what's the point of having any? Adam was not an infant. He chose to disbelieve and disregard God's word. People still do that today also.
.... the fossil evidence points a clearer dotted line to the existence of evolution ......
BS. The very existence of fossils shows exactly the opposite. Nobody has ever made a fossil today nor even come forth with a viable mechanism for the making of one. When a living organism dies today, it is immediately attacked by microorganisms. It NEVER makes a fossil. Fossils are the result of rapid burial, such as in a catastrophe. Heat pressure and the exclusion of oxygen kill microorganisms and then allow fossils to form. The Bible relates of such a cataclysm, called the flood of Noah.
Evolution is a pure belief in the unobserved arising of information out of energy and matter. If you or anyone else can show me how information, such as DNA code, a computer program, a set of blueprints for a building, machine or bridge, a poem or novel can come into being, WITHOUT and NOT by the activity of a mind, I'd believe evolution.
The laws of physics, are pure information which determine the behavior of galaxies and atoms. Galaxies and atoms do not generate the laws of physics any more than ink and paper produce the works of Shakespeare, Beethoven or the Beatles.
The belief that everything arose in the mind of God is much more according to the way we ourselves live and operate. Everything we do or make first arises in our human minds.
....Why the PC world thinks the computer is some special case apart from every other fucking consumer product on the face of the planet is beyond me........
That's because other than Apple all computers are a comittee job based on the interpretions of human language as written in specifications. So which member of the comittee do you blame if it doesn't work? With Apple the blame is clear. This would no longer be true if clones were allowed.
......that gives me "an answer" as to why evil came from good/perfection in the very beginning.......
The Bible, in the NT speaks of "mysteries" such as as of God, evil, gospel, Christ, the Church, faith and others. Like any mystery these will eventually be cleared up. For now however, our understanding has been darkened by sin and imperfection and we are simply asked to believe the revelation that God HAS given us about Himself and our position.
Solomon, of whom we are told that he was the wisest man of his time boiled it down very succinctly:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
Do not let your understanding, or rather the lack thereof be a judge of whether the Bible is the Word of God and of your relationship to Him. Do not put your intellect in the place of God.
....... Everything is supposed to be a part of his divine plan. Everything.......
It is, but it isn't finished yet. The devil and the fall are just speed bumps along the way. He knew about them and solved the problem. In Genesis God tells us that He began it all. In Revelation He tells us how it will all end. He doesn't always fill in all the details we would like to know to our intellectual satisfaction, however. That is the reason why we just have to believe for now and trust Him.
.....Haven't we figured out by now religion and science don't mix? Copernicus, Galileo, Da Vinci,.......
They used to. The guys you mentioned as well as most early scientists were people of faith. True science consists of experiments and observations as we see them TODAY. We then by power of our reason and imagination extrapolate these into the past or into realms which science cannot access. Nobody was around when the Universe began and what the conditions then were. We use our reasoning power extrapolate todays conditions onto the past and onto the non-physical realms of which we are largely ignorant. Jesus tried to clothe spiritual concepts in physical analogies, but faced massive unbelief.
(...makes all sorts of references about the fact that time for God doesn't pass like it does for us humans...)
That is a perfect example. Einstein figured out that time is relative and varies with mass, acceleration, gravity and maybe other factors we have not yet discovered. He also figured out that time is a created thing, just as space-matter-energy are. The Bible tells us that God is outside of and apart from time. There are only two choices about how everything came to be. 1) the Universe, time-space-matter-energy created itself or 2) someone eternal, outside and apart from it created it.
You are allowed to chose which one you want to BELIEVE, but there is no way to prove either one.
......Since when did being a Christian mean that you have to literally believe everything in the Bible......
/. have chosen to elevate their power of reason to the position of being a judge over what God has said or not said. If the Bible is indeed the word of God, calling God a liar, based solely on brainpower, is a dangerous position I would rather not be in.
The question is on what basis can anyone decide what parts are truly the words of God and therefore must be believed and obeyed and which are not and can therefore be ignored? We are told that liars are damned to hell. Is that true or not? Can reason give us the answer?
If the basis is intellect, then that rises to the place of God. At the center of the Christian faith is the person and work of Jesus. If the accounts of Adam, Eve, Noah, Jonah and the other persons in the Bible are not factual literal historical figures and revelations on how they lived, then how can we be sure that Jesus was?
We cannot have it both ways. Either the entire Bible is an accurate message from God or it is not. Outside of our intellectual reasoning ability we have no independent basis for choosing which parts of the Bible to accept or reject. Most people, especially here on
....I can easily believe in God. I can believe that God created this universe......
The key in your comment and most of them here in this thread is the word BELIEVE. Christians and evolutionists can really only believe. There is no way to prove or disprove one or other belief. Believers generally defend their belief, whether that belief is in the God of the Bible or something else. Some spend large sums of money, some blow up buildings and airplanes in order to propagate and convince others about their beliefs. Some clothe their beliefs as science and get the taxpayer to propagate their belief systems. Building a museum is considerably more benign than building bombs and guns.
The Bible predicts that Jesus Christ will return one day and take over control of the entire earth and all mankind. Until that day comes, we can all only argue about beliefs, but no one can prove a thing.
..... with limited application availability.......
I don't think there is even a single computer function or job that doesn't presently have a Mac equivalent program. There are of course some programs that run only on Windows systems, especially games. Even there, the really popular ones EVENTUALLY get ported to the Mac. Anyone who has a Mac and who also MUST use certain special Windows only software, can easily do so, either with boot camp or virtual machine software, such as from Parallels. I have been using a Windows only chat program called Paltalk. Recently I installed it under Parallels VM on my Macbook and it works just as well as it did on my desktop PC.
I wonder how a price comparison between a Mac running Windows and a Windows only PC could be fairly done. Such a Mac is in effect two computers in one. I feel I do not need antivirus software on the VM since its network exposure is only through Paltalk. All other Internet activity takes place on the much more secure MacOSX. The VM networks through the Mac, which also serves as a firewall in addition to the normal firewall supplied by our ISP. Even if the VM Windows installation did get infected or otherwise damaged, it is trivial to replace the Windows HD image file with a clean one.
If Apple were to license OSX, they would instantly have to deal with many of the support headaches Microsoft has to handle. The computer misbehaves and many hardware makers shove the responsibility off on the software. Since Apple makes it all, the customer has only one place to go for help.
........which is an upgrade-limiting gimmick.........
Other than RAM, what percentage of people upgrade their computer these days? Ten years ago, that was more common. The article was mainly about laptops and those don't upgrade much anyway. The mini is for a PC person who already has a serviceable monitor/keyboard/mouse who is tired of dealing with viruses, worms and other PC vermin and the performance sapping and extra cost anti-virus software needed try to defend their computer.
.......Shit, the low end machines have more grunt than any normal person requires anyway.........
Then why does Dell and all their competitors make high end machines? The article was comparing more or less similar machines at the higher prices. Right at the outset the writer states that if you want a cheap computer to not bother reading the rest of the article and just get a cheap PC. A Lexus and a Hyundai will get you from one end of town to the other in roughly the same amount of time. If all you want is to get across town, get a Hyundai or even better, ride the bus. Use a computer in your library.
.....Apple has terrible hardware/driver support.....
They support everything THEY make. Everything 99% of users need is built into their computers. So what if they don't support your no-name video card or special cell phone gizmo? Get support from the gadget maker and if they don't support it on a Mac, get a windows PC and cross your fingers that they do. If you use Linux, probably a fervent prayer to the computer gods won't help either.
.......I think it's time to allow companies to produce OS/X based clones.....
Obviously you are not a Mac user. Computers are much more than a piece of hardware with some software grafted on or in. They are a synergistic system. Apple is the ONLY personal computer maker who builds both as an integrated system "that just works". Why should they give up that exclusive advantage? Just to compete with MS for something nebulous called 'marketshare'?
By what logic do you suppose that allowing clones would help their high end hardware business? They have nothing to gain and lots to lose by trying to compete in the cutthroat PC business.
....whether I believe in him or not......
Belief in God is more than mental assent that He exists. We read in scripture that the demons believe that and tremble.
Belief includes complete implicit trust, as a little child who trusts his/her daddy and tries to please him at heart. The child is reassured of the fathers love even if he/she screws up and may need to feel the pain of discipline at times. We read that even Jesus, as the son of God had to, as a man learn submission and obedience to God the father by the sufferings and shame He was subject to, while here on earth. Because Jesus was willing, He has been given the highest position under God and invites those other humans wiling to follow Him, to share in that royal calling under His name.
If you tell God that you too are willing to become a follower of Jesus, with NO conditions, he will take you at your word, show Himself to you and assign to you a path that will come to glory with Him through suffering. Jesus doesn't promise His followers a flower strewn pathway through life, but to the contrary, present unfailing love in spite of suffering and exaltation with Him in the future. Be careful though, before you ask God this, for it will cost you everything. Jesus said it this way:
And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever will save his life shall lose it, but whoever will lose his life for My sake, he shall save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world and loses himself, or is cast away? (Matt. 9:23-25)
..... then he told his other prophets that he reserved the right to bring down flaming destruction, famine, pestilence and other destruction, instead........
/. isn't really the place for such.
Indeed He does and rightly so. I do not want this to turn into a long religious discussion.
Briefly, however, God is perfect and just. He is the Creator and as such He has the right to rule over His creation. For example, he condemns all breakers of His laws to death. One of these is telling lies, deliberate deception. So you, I and every person on this planet that has ever told a lie is guilty of and is sentenced to death. We are all on death row, awaiting execution. God could have left us in this state, but in His love He found a way to satisfy justice and be merciful. That is the purpose of Jesus death and resurrection. He took the sentence we all are under.
Full pardon and release is now available to all who choose to admit their guilt, believe in and freely accept and submit to the righteous rule of Jesus. I have accepted these conditions and therefore have received a full pardon, allowing me full present and future access to God and fellowship in the society of all others so forgiven of all wrongdoing.
Right now, the good and evil are mixed up together here on earth. There will be a separation. One place where there will only be good and another where there is nothing good. One is light the other is darkness, heaven and hell. You may choose now where you will be after that separation happens.
There are only two groups of people, those who have been forgiven and those still under sentence of death -- eternal death. Which group are you in?
.....Minds don't "create information" .......
They certainly do. An idea, totally new springs into some mind. The works of great composers, playwrights and other artists certainly are information that did not exist previously. Society has even developed a whole body of law concerning INTELLECTUAL property. The nature of IP is very different from physical things. The technology we have today ALL arose in the minds of countless individuals over time. Maybe YOU can tell me one or more examples how information arises WITHOUT the activity of mind. The very LAWS of physics are immaterial, yet govern all aspects of the physical universe. Those laws were formulated in a mind to govern our time-space-matter-energy universe before it came to be.
Software on a disk neither adds nor subtracts from the mass of that material information carrier. Information, in order to interact with us in the physical realm must be imposed in some way onto a physical object. That doesn't mean though that Information cannot exist apart from and beyond the physical. The information lies in the arrangement of bits or letters on a suitable carrier. If the information is encrypted, it is lost, unless the key can be discovered in some manner. Interpreting information involves MEANING. If I wrote this to you in German, it would not convey information to you, unless you know German or can find someone who does and will translate the message so you can understand it and possibly take some kind of action based on that message.
I can run Windows, Mac OSX, Linux, DOS and who knows what else all on the same hardware. Each of these gives the computer a distinct "personality" but in no way normally affects the physical structure of the hardware. Software (Information) can travel at the speed of light. If we knew of a physical carrier that could go any distance instantly, then the information imposed thereon would also. Information then is CERTAINLY different than matter-energy. There is no reason mind cannot exist apart from and independently from matter-energy. However, since we are limited to the physical right now, we could not interact with or in any way perceive a pure mind.
....Please show me any phrase in any scripture of any religion where God says "Hey, I am a nice guy.".......
If you would read the Bible you would learn of many statements by or about God that are much better than "I am a nice guy". I'll only give one quote and a few references you can look up if you wish.
1John 4:8 "The one who does not love has not known God. For God is love"
Romans 5:8, 1John 4:12, 1John 4:16, Deuteronomy 7:7-8
Science is not illogical, but limited. It is confined to exploring only the present time-space universe we inhabit. You assume (faith) that this present physical reality and its laws is all that exists. Even within this physical reality there are these things we call mind, spirit, information, software etc. These are all a separate class, apart from the matter-energy science deals with. These are not subject to the same laws, but have rules of their own. Concerning information in particular, there is no known law of nature, no known process, no known sequence of events, which can cause information to originate by itself in or from matter/energy. The material realm can contain and manipulate existing information, but only a mind can create it.
It is in this realm, that God, who is not physical, reveals certain things. One of these things is that the physical reality we study in science is temporary and will one day be replaced. Science has figured that out as you stated. We are told that after this universe dies, the game is NOT over, but the beginning of a new game at a very much higher level. We are told of this in the last book of the Bible in Revelation 21:1. Now you may choose not to believe anything written therein, but that is your business.