...Do you think I want to waste one second trying to hook an external harddrive to a computer and then find out it "can not mount it" because of "wrongful formatting"?.....
I have a portable 80G drive which works transparently with either Macs or Windows. It was originally set up that way on a Mac, but could have as well have been set up on Windows. You better use a Mac for a while, before you appear like a fountain of ignorance on this forum.
....ending their current status as neutral providers......
Government now protects "neutral" carriers from liability over what content they carry. Just tell them that if they chose to benefit from content selectively, they will lose that protection. Different KINDS of contents could get preferential treatment, but not content from different sources. Is that such a hard thing to do?
.....The root of the net neutrality debate in the US is the decision of the FCC to resolve the different handling......
The solution of course is to let each company decide whether they want to be protected from liability for the content they carry. If yes, then they are a common carrier, otherwise that should be open to lawsuits over any content they carry, such as porn for example, just as a radio station might get sued. Why should there be *any* differenced made by whatever means and pathways bits are delivered? The phone companies want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to get some of the content provider pie without also the risks of being held responsible for such content. Content providers too should not be treated differently. Regardless how the content gets to the consumer, whether by various wires & fibers, airwaves or print, the rules should be the same for all. For example, a broadcaster is a broadcaster, no matter how the signal eventually makes its way to the receiver. Therefore all broadcasting rules should be the same. Of course, vested interests will try to keep things in their favor.
.........a story that shows that NOBODY can live a "clean honest live". Nobody.......
Does that mean perhaps that humans need some outside help? In part of that story (Isaiah 7:14) we are also told that God will help us in the person of someone called Immanuel, "God with us" and how He will help us (Isaiah 53)
The story continues in the New Testament where that help receives the name 'Jesus', who alone conquered death. However, no one can be helped unless they first believe that help is available and then accept that help. That help is called mercy, not sinless perfection, available to those who truly have realized that they cannot live a "clean honest life", but would truly at least WANT to have that.
....world is more complicated than the Ten Commandments allow for.......
OK then, let's simplify it and leave God out for the moment. How about just keeping the second one? That would solve the problem of blackmail for sure, as well as most other problems we have in the world.
I remember Bebo at the Computer Center quite well. I worked with him as an interested member of the SLAC user community. I helped him and his group concerning certain aspects the three mainframe IBM computers sort of lashed together. They called that the "Triplex".
Those who live clean honest lives are very difficult to blackmail. Perhaps those don't go into politics much however.
The gap between morality and uprightness and the laws is becoming wider all the time. Politicians pile law upon law. Somehow these laws have to be enforced. Technology is not the problem. The problem lies in the hearts of people who do not wish to obey the Ten Commandments. If those simple rules are flouted, then why bother to obey all the uncountable laws that all the politicians have passed since?
Jesus claimed to be God because that is who he is. 15 times he uses the "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek). When He uttered that phrase at His arrest, it is recorded that those that came to arrest Him fell backwards to the ground at those words of supreme majesty. (John 18:5-6) The Septuagint, the old testament translation into Greek uses that same phrase "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14 where God tells Moses who is sending him back down to Egypt. That is the "I AM", the name of God the rabbis would never pronounce. The pharisees help us here also. They too understood Jesus claim to deity and were very upset. (Luke 5:23 & 7:49) They know that only God can forgive sin. Now Jesus claims to be God, a blasphemy in their eyes.
For us to be able to understand fully the complete nature of God would mean we would have to actually be God. That is why we must believe and trust scripture which tells us that while God and Jesus are not identical, they are interlinked so closely, that they are as one.
As an engineer and scientist I try to think of physical equivalencies of spiritual things. These of course never fully work, especially pertaining to God, but are often helpful to my finite mind. Water is a molecule of hydrogen and oxygen. We can have it as a solid, liquid or vapor. Its properties and functions in each of these states are very different, yet it always remains one substance, that of water.
You will not be sinning if you worship Jesus, but will bring honor to God the Father when you do so worship.
....Really though the distinction between us being in hell now or destined for hell later is not really relevant to my original point.....
The distinctions is that the condemnation is already, but the sentence is yet to be carried out. Jesus said:
He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
The only way out is to accept the pardon. You may have heard about the availability of the pardon in your youth, but until you actually personally accept this pardon Jesus offers, you are condemned person awaiting execution of the sentence pronounced -- death -- eternal separation from God. The conditions are faith and repentance. Accept or reject? Your choice.
I suppose that after you and I are both dead, we'll find out who was right. If I am right, then you are in big trouble. If you are right, then I'll just go out of existence also.
....I am receptive to the possibility that Jesus was in fact the same as the LORD.......
The Apostle Peter was convinced of that in Acs chapter 2. In v 22 Peter gets very specific. Jesus was actually quite a common name in Israel. Peter spells out exactly which Jesus he is talking about. In V32 he reiterates: " God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses." Not any Jesus, but a very special one.
Paul, in his letter to the Philippians chapter 2:5-10 is quite clear that Jesus is Lord. Since God is the only one we must worship, Jesus could only be bowed down to in worship if He is indeed God.. We read V10: "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
(....I don't think it is appropriate to say the Father and the Son are literally the same being.....)
I don't either and neither does the Bible. Jesus said: "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30) He never said He was the same being. He prays for all believers, you and me also: "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21) This to me, is one of the most mind boggling statements. Jesus prays in effect to include us humans in the inner circle of God! Read the whole chapter and let it sink in.
(....all the other O.T. prophets, whom the LORD loved, got perfect justice instead of the mercy route? I don't believe it.......)
I don't believe it either. It clearly says of Abraham that he was declared righteous because of faith. Read Hebrews 11 sometime. The work of Christ is not time bound. The cross is past for us here in the 21st century, but Christ is timeless and so is His salvation, for them yet future. The O.T. believers get mercy on the basis of faith. The Ark of the Covenant had a Mercy Seat.
(....I don't think the LORD breaks his promises......)
I don't either. All of Israel will be saved, once 'the fullness of gentiles' has been gathered. The rebirth of Israel as a nation is a signpost of the truth of the Bible. Too bad that they are still a largely secular nation where the majority does not worship Jehova at present. However in due time they will return to Him, the God of their fathers. We read in (Zechariah 12:10): "And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son , and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born." Who got pierced here? Was that One, who was pierced on the cross, God? Where else would God have gotten pierced?
(.....the doctrine you might see accepted in churches.....)
In science and technology we need accurate, unvarying standards of measurement. I cut some wood for our stove once. Instead of using one original measured piece, I used succeeding lengths of the wood I was cutting. To my chagrin I found that the later pieces did not fit into the stove because they were too long. Martin Luther and others taught us that we must check with the original standard, the Bible from time to time. To navigate a ship to its destination, an external reference is needed. The church is like the ship. The Bible is its compass showing the course toward God.
(....speed of light had been increased by 300x....)
The speed of an electromagnetic wave is determined by the medium it traverses. Space itself is not an empty nothing, but has definite electrical and magnetic properties which affect light. There is evidence that at the beginning light moved not 300 times, but 300 MILLION times faster than it does now. Einstein showed the relationships of matter-energy and space-time. These have been experimentally verified many times. Evolutionists measure time by the motion of atoms. The equations of these contain time
.....There are so many inaccuracies in what you are saying......
I used the word "hell" in the generic sense that most people do. Of course there are nuances. The point is, none of us know what hell is really like, nor can we really imagine heaven either. We are right now closer to hell than heaven. In fact Jesus said we are all like accused prisoners awaiting judgment since we have all broken the law.
In the Bible we are told about heaven and hell in terms that human language can express. Then Jesus added: "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (John 3:12) There are no human words or concepts whereby either heaven or hell can be fully described. The concepts of relativity are part of this time-space dimension we are presently living in, yet few people fully understand relativity. Because the spiritual dimension is so far beyond our present understanding, that the only avenue left is belief, faith.
.....People are going to hell by the millions each year.....
What gives you the idea that you are GOING to hell? You're in it right now. We all are. We are all guilty criminals in God's sight, already in prison for our crimes. Did you ever tell a lie? Ever take something that was not yours? Ever got so mad at someone you would like to have killed them? Yes? I thought I was right that I was communicating with a lying thief and murderer. But guess what? The Governor has issued a pardon, signed in blood, for you, or anyone who is willing to admit their crimes and promise to at least attempt to live by the rules. You don't have to accept the pardon however. You may choose to remain in prison. Don't fault the Governor for leaving you in prison if you don't accept the pardon and its conditions. I have accepted that pardon and so I am now free. Jesus said "Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." Are you still in prison?
.....If I said I was perfectly reliable and accurate, would you believe me?.........
Yes, provided that there were other witnesses whom I do believe. If these testify that you have never, ever lied as far they have known you, I would believe you. In general it is better and more charitable to assume someone is telling the truth, than to automatically assume them to be liars. Most people tend to be truthful, but some are liars. I would assume you belong to the larger, truthful group. I may find out otherwise later however, and that is always sad.
....but I'd love to see a quote from the bible that describes hell as inflicted torture......
Look at Revelation 14:10-11 and Rev 20:10 for starters. Jesus also talks about hell and pain. This is the payback for those, both demonic and human who who have inflicted pain and suffering on millions and are still doing so at present and will yet on those unborn.
Exactly. Hell isn't confined to the hereafter either. God created the earth for man and gave man stewardship over it. He intended and still intends man to take care of His property under wise counsel of God Himself. Man rejected Gods right to rule and has made a huge mess of this planet and humanity as a whole. Jesus said it best in the parable of the vineyard in Matthew 21:33-46. His hearers understood this story and were ready to put an end to Jesus right then and there.
In the parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13:24 tells us that right now good and evil are mixed up together but that at the harvest they will be separated. Later Jesus interprets the parable and tells us that no human will do this separation, but God will through His holy Angels. Then He concludes this in V43 with: "Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
The present state of the world, with evil and good side by side was not so in the beginning and will again not be when Jesus rules in righteousness right here on Earth. Heaven and Earth will be united as one and filled with good. Those who do not want to participate in that will be given a place where they can do as much evil as they want, unhindered by any good whatsoever.
....so one reminder seven thousand years ago in a document in an obscure language is sufficient notice.....
Apparently Abraham thought that scripture is enough. Jesus lifts the curtain into eternity a tiny bit in Luke 16:20-31. He concludes the lesson with: "And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead." Anyone unwilling to believe the written records of scripture is not going to believe a miracle either.
After Jesus performed what was arguably His greatest miracle, the raising of Lazarus from the dead, Jesus unbelieving enemies were ever more determined to murder Him.
John 11:53 Then from that day they took counsel together that they might kill Him.
So, no, God is not going to give you more notice than He has already. There will be nobody who will have a valid excuse at the final judgment.
....Do you stop them from taking those keys and inform them that they need to take another car.......
God has not chosen to stop us from taking the car, but He did tell us not to and informed us of the consequences if we do anyway. Apparently most people decide the car is OK, but truly believe the warning that the brakes are out only AFTER the crash. The problem is that anyone who takes the car anyway is calling the owner who warned them a liar. Neither God nor people enjoy being called a liar.
.....There is no evidence that Jesus proclaimed himself to be the literal son of God.......
He did more than that. He claimed to BE God. 15 times he uses the "I AM". When He uttered that phrase at His arrest, it is recorded that those that came to arrest Him fell backwards to the ground at those words of supreme majesty. (John 18:5-6) The Septuagint, the old testament translation into Greek uses that same phrase "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14 where God tells Moses who is sending him back down to Egypt. That is the "I AM", the name of God the rabbis would never pronounce. The pharisees help us here also. They too understood Jesus claim to deity and were very upset. (Luke 5:23 & 7:49)Either Jesus is God, Immanuel, God with us, or He is the biggest, most arrogant deceiver that ever walked on this planet. If He is God, we do well to pay attention and give Him our obedience.
I suggest you study scripture a little more closely before making statements about Jesus.
She came to God the only way anyone can - by faith in Jesus Christ. It is because she believed in Him and truly loved Him, that she lived such a exemplary life few of us manage.
As far as who to believe -- believe in the One who is alive at this moment. Jesus is the only one who is not dead. For starters, read the Gospel of John as many times needed until you are able to act upon what Jesus says therein. Ask God to help you understand it. After that read the other Gospels, the rest of the New Testament and then wade into the old. Maybe you'll change you mind about God after that.
That is unfortunately neither in accord with what Jesus clearly said nor with God's laws of physics. Nothing goes out of existence, but only changes form and place. Part of that 'image of God' in man is our eternal makeup. The same word "eternal" as applied to happiness in heaven is also used for the anguish of hell. Hell is an awful place which Jesus described in terms of the worst kind of pain we humans can physically experience - that of fire and burning. If hell were not such a bad place to end up, then Jesus would not have to go through hell himself on our behalf. After all if there is no hell, we go out of existence or hell is NOT really so bad after all, then Jesus went to the cross for nothing.
..... It would be better to just kill these people off.......
If God did that, he'd have to 'kill' himself first. Death doesn't mean going out of existence. Nothing in the physical world does that. Things change form and place, but still exist. You are made in the image of God. That is why you are an eternal being, extremely valuable to Him.
The Bible mentions two deaths. The first one we are very familiar with as our loved ones bodies die, one by one. The second death is eternal separation from God's presence. God has given us the ability to want to be with Him or not. We can only want. However He alone has the made it possible to actually make it happen by taking our sin upon Himself at the cross. Anyone who truly wants to be with God forever WILL come to accept the gift of salvation by faith. God will never use His divine power to force anyone to go to heaven or hell. He is limited by His nature, love and justice. Love will never force anyone into heaven and justice will never allow evil to enter there.
.....Agnosticism is the idea that you can't know whether or not god exists....
The fact is though that many so called agnostics don't really want to know whether God is. If they admit to that possibility, then a lot of uncomfortable questions arise which they'd rather not have to deal with.
It is hard for us time bound creatures to even imagine someone or something that has always existed, someone that just IS. Moses was given the name of God as "I AM" the eternally self existing one. You just have chosen to completely deny His existence, because if you even admitted even in the slightest that there possibly could be a Creator after all, who made you, a very uncomfortable series of thoughts will come into your mind. Some are: If there is a possibility, even a small one, that there is a God, then what, if any is my responsibility to Him? Is there maybe a judgement after death? If there is, what are my chances? Was Jesus who He claimed to be, the Immanuel, 'God with us" the "I AM" come to earth? When he claimed to be THE truth, was He lying or deceived?
What if there is a heaven and a hell and physical death of only the body, with its brain, is not the end of my existence? After all, in the physical world there is no extinction either. There are conservation laws. When you burn a piece of wood in your fireplace it doesn't go out of existence. It only changes form. Matter and energy cannot be destroyed and neither can the eternal spirit person that is the real conscious you. Right now you still have opportunity to determine the CORRECT answer to these and other important questions concerning your eternal destiny. I suggest you don't fool yourself, but earnestly seek true answers to these questions.
.....There are no facts of science. Science is a process.....
Would it not more accurate to say that the process you describe well and succinctly discovers certain facts about our physical existence? Digging in the earth we do find fossils. Astronomers measure starlight and discover the red-shift. These are then interpreted through the world view of either there is or there is not a Creator. Anyone who admits a Creator then is faced with the uncomfortable prospect of being accountable to such a Creator. That is where our human sin problem comes in. Because we are sinners, we feel very uneasy, yes plagued by guilt in the light of His perfection and demand for justice. Only God Himself could fix that and He did. He became fully human, in Jesus Christ, and took care of our sin by becoming our sin bearer so we would not have to bear that sin ourselves forever. God made the entire universe by simply speaking into existence, but He had to do hard work and suffer the cross in order to redeem us humans from sin. Salvation is free to us, but was very costly to God. Anyone who spurns this gift through unbelief will get perfect justice rather than mercy. I, and I believe you too have chosen the mercy route. I certainly hope and pray that some our fellow readers on this forum will do so also.
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...Do you think I want to waste one second trying to hook an external harddrive to a computer and then find out it "can not mount it" because of "wrongful formatting"?.....
I have a portable 80G drive which works transparently with either Macs or Windows. It was originally set up that way on a Mac, but could have as well have been set up on Windows. You better use a Mac for a while, before you appear like a fountain of ignorance on this forum.
....ending their current status as neutral providers......
Government now protects "neutral" carriers from liability over what content they carry. Just tell them that if they chose to benefit from content selectively, they will lose that protection. Different KINDS of contents could get preferential treatment, but not content from different sources. Is that such a hard thing to do?
.....The root of the net neutrality debate in the US is the decision of the FCC to resolve the different handling ......
The solution of course is to let each company decide whether they want to be protected from liability for the content they carry. If yes, then they are a common carrier, otherwise that should be open to lawsuits over any content they carry, such as porn for example, just as a radio station might get sued. Why should there be *any* differenced made by whatever means and pathways bits are delivered? The phone companies want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to get some of the content provider pie without also the risks of being held responsible for such content. Content providers too should not be treated differently. Regardless how the content gets to the consumer, whether by various wires & fibers, airwaves or print, the rules should be the same for all. For example, a broadcaster is a broadcaster, no matter how the signal eventually makes its way to the receiver. Therefore all broadcasting rules should be the same. Of course, vested interests will try to keep things in their favor.
.........a story that shows that NOBODY can live a "clean honest live". Nobody.......
Does that mean perhaps that humans need some outside help? In part of that story (Isaiah 7:14) we are also told that God will help us in the person of someone called Immanuel, "God with us" and how He will help us (Isaiah 53)
The story continues in the New Testament where that help receives the name 'Jesus', who alone conquered death. However, no one can be helped unless they first believe that help is available and then accept that help. That help is called mercy, not sinless perfection, available to those who truly have realized that they cannot live a "clean honest life", but would truly at least WANT to have that.
....world is more complicated than the Ten Commandments allow for.......
OK then, let's simplify it and leave God out for the moment. How about just keeping the second one? That would solve the problem of blackmail for sure, as well as most other problems we have in the world.
I remember Bebo at the Computer Center quite well. I worked with him as an interested member of the SLAC user community. I helped him and his group concerning certain aspects the three mainframe IBM computers sort of lashed together. They called that the "Triplex".
.....blackmailing people.......
Those who live clean honest lives are very difficult to blackmail. Perhaps those don't go into politics much however.
The gap between morality and uprightness and the laws is becoming wider all the time. Politicians pile law upon law. Somehow these laws have to be enforced. Technology is not the problem. The problem lies in the hearts of people who do not wish to obey the Ten Commandments. If those simple rules are flouted, then why bother to obey all the uncountable laws that all the politicians have passed since?
......to worship Jesus.......
Jesus claimed to be God because that is who he is. 15 times he uses the "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek). When He uttered that phrase at His arrest, it is recorded that those that came to arrest Him fell backwards to the ground at those words of supreme majesty. (John 18:5-6) The Septuagint, the old testament translation into Greek uses that same phrase "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14 where God tells Moses who is sending him back down to Egypt. That is the "I AM", the name of God the rabbis would never pronounce. The pharisees help us here also. They too understood Jesus claim to deity and were very upset. (Luke 5:23 & 7:49) They know that only God can forgive sin. Now Jesus claims to be God, a blasphemy in their eyes.
For us to be able to understand fully the complete nature of God would mean we would have to actually be God. That is why we must believe and trust scripture which tells us that while God and Jesus are not identical, they are interlinked so closely, that they are as one.
As an engineer and scientist I try to think of physical equivalencies of spiritual things. These of course never fully work, especially pertaining to God, but are often helpful to my finite mind. Water is a molecule of hydrogen and oxygen. We can have it as a solid, liquid or vapor. Its properties and functions in each of these states are very different, yet it always remains one substance, that of water.
You will not be sinning if you worship Jesus, but will bring honor to God the Father when you do so worship.
....Really though the distinction between us being in hell now or destined for hell later is not really relevant to my original point .....
The distinctions is that the condemnation is already, but the sentence is yet to be carried out. Jesus said:
He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
The only way out is to accept the pardon. You may have heard about the availability of the pardon in your youth, but until you actually personally accept this pardon Jesus offers, you are condemned person awaiting execution of the sentence pronounced -- death -- eternal separation from God. The conditions are faith and repentance. Accept or reject? Your choice.
....what you see is what you get.....
I suppose that after you and I are both dead, we'll find out who was right. If I am right, then you are in big trouble. If you are right, then I'll just go out of existence also.
....I am receptive to the possibility that Jesus was in fact the same as the LORD.......
The Apostle Peter was convinced of that in Acs chapter 2. In v 22 Peter gets very specific. Jesus was actually quite a common name in Israel. Peter spells out exactly which Jesus he is talking about. In V32 he reiterates: " God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses." Not any Jesus, but a very special one.
Paul, in his letter to the Philippians chapter 2:5-10 is quite clear that Jesus is Lord. Since God is the only one we must worship, Jesus could only be bowed down to in worship if He is indeed God.. We read V10: "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
(....I don't think it is appropriate to say the Father and the Son are literally the same being.....)
I don't either and neither does the Bible. Jesus said: "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30) He never said He was the same being. He prays for all believers, you and me also: "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21) This to me, is one of the most mind boggling statements. Jesus prays in effect to include us humans in the inner circle of God! Read the whole chapter and let it sink in.
(....all the other O.T. prophets, whom the LORD loved, got perfect justice instead of the mercy route? I don't believe it.......)
I don't believe it either. It clearly says of Abraham that he was declared righteous because of faith. Read Hebrews 11 sometime. The work of Christ is not time bound. The cross is past for us here in the 21st century, but Christ is timeless and so is His salvation, for them yet future. The O.T. believers get mercy on the basis of faith. The Ark of the Covenant had a Mercy Seat.
(....I don't think the LORD breaks his promises......)
I don't either. All of Israel will be saved, once 'the fullness of gentiles' has been gathered. The rebirth of Israel as a nation is a signpost of the truth of the Bible. Too bad that they are still a largely secular nation where the majority does not worship Jehova at present. However in due time they will return to Him, the God of their fathers. We read in (Zechariah 12:10): "And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son , and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born." Who got pierced here? Was that One, who was pierced on the cross, God? Where else would God have gotten pierced?
(.....the doctrine you might see accepted in churches.....)
In science and technology we need accurate, unvarying standards of measurement. I cut some wood for our stove once. Instead of using one original measured piece, I used succeeding lengths of the wood I was cutting. To my chagrin I found that the later pieces did not fit into the stove because they were too long. Martin Luther and others taught us that we must check with the original standard, the Bible from time to time. To navigate a ship to its destination, an external reference is needed. The church is like the ship. The Bible is its compass showing the course toward God.
(....speed of light had been increased by 300x....)
The speed of an electromagnetic wave is determined by the medium it traverses. Space itself is not an empty nothing, but has definite electrical and magnetic properties which affect light. There is evidence that at the beginning light moved not 300 times, but 300 MILLION times faster than it does now. Einstein showed the relationships of matter-energy and space-time. These have been experimentally verified many times. Evolutionists measure time by the motion of atoms. The equations of these contain time
.....There are so many inaccuracies in what you are saying......
I used the word "hell" in the generic sense that most people do. Of course there are nuances. The point is, none of us know what hell is really like, nor can we really imagine heaven either. We are right now closer to hell than heaven. In fact Jesus said we are all like accused prisoners awaiting judgment since we have all broken the law.
In the Bible we are told about heaven and hell in terms that human language can express. Then Jesus added: "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (John 3:12) There are no human words or concepts whereby either heaven or hell can be fully described. The concepts of relativity are part of this time-space dimension we are presently living in, yet few people fully understand relativity. Because the spiritual dimension is so far beyond our present understanding, that the only avenue left is belief, faith.
.....People are going to hell by the millions each year.....
What gives you the idea that you are GOING to hell? You're in it right now. We all are. We are all guilty criminals in God's sight, already in prison for our crimes. Did you ever tell a lie? Ever take something that was not yours? Ever got so mad at someone you would like to have killed them? Yes? I thought I was right that I was communicating with a lying thief and murderer. But guess what? The Governor has issued a pardon, signed in blood, for you, or anyone who is willing to admit their crimes and promise to at least attempt to live by the rules. You don't have to accept the pardon however. You may choose to remain in prison. Don't fault the Governor for leaving you in prison if you don't accept the pardon and its conditions. I have accepted that pardon and so I am now free. Jesus said "Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." Are you still in prison?
.....If I said I was perfectly reliable and accurate, would you believe me?.........
Yes, provided that there were other witnesses whom I do believe. If these testify that you have never, ever lied as far they have known you, I would believe you. In general it is better and more charitable to assume someone is telling the truth, than to automatically assume them to be liars. Most people tend to be truthful, but some are liars. I would assume you belong to the larger, truthful group. I may find out otherwise later however, and that is always sad.
....but I'd love to see a quote from the bible that describes hell as inflicted torture......
Look at Revelation 14:10-11 and Rev 20:10 for starters. Jesus also talks about hell and pain. This is the payback for those, both demonic and human who who have inflicted pain and suffering on millions and are still doing so at present and will yet on those unborn.
....Hell isn't God being vindictive....
Exactly. Hell isn't confined to the hereafter either. God created the earth for man and gave man stewardship over it. He intended and still intends man to take care of His property under wise counsel of God Himself. Man rejected Gods right to rule and has made a huge mess of this planet and humanity as a whole. Jesus said it best in the parable of the vineyard in Matthew 21:33-46. His hearers understood this story and were ready to put an end to Jesus right then and there.
In the parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13:24 tells us that right now good and evil are mixed up together but that at the harvest they will be separated. Later Jesus interprets the parable and tells us that no human will do this separation, but God will through His holy Angels. Then He concludes this in V43 with: "Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
The present state of the world, with evil and good side by side was not so in the beginning and will again not be when Jesus rules in righteousness right here on Earth. Heaven and Earth will be united as one and filled with good. Those who do not want to participate in that will be given a place where they can do as much evil as they want, unhindered by any good whatsoever.
....so one reminder seven thousand years ago in a document in an obscure language is sufficient notice .....
Apparently Abraham thought that scripture is enough. Jesus lifts the curtain into eternity a tiny bit in Luke 16:20-31. He concludes the lesson with: "And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead." Anyone unwilling to believe the written records of scripture is not going to believe a miracle either.
After Jesus performed what was arguably His greatest miracle, the raising of Lazarus from the dead, Jesus unbelieving enemies were ever more determined to murder Him.
John 11:53 Then from that day they took counsel together that they might kill Him.
So, no, God is not going to give you more notice than He has already. There will be nobody who will have a valid excuse at the final judgment.
....Do you stop them from taking those keys and inform them that they need to take another car .......
God has not chosen to stop us from taking the car, but He did tell us not to and informed us of the consequences if we do anyway. Apparently most people decide the car is OK, but truly believe the warning that the brakes are out only AFTER the crash. The problem is that anyone who takes the car anyway is calling the owner who warned them a liar. Neither God nor people enjoy being called a liar.
.....There is no evidence that Jesus proclaimed himself to be the literal son of God.......
He did more than that. He claimed to BE God. 15 times he uses the "I AM". When He uttered that phrase at His arrest, it is recorded that those that came to arrest Him fell backwards to the ground at those words of supreme majesty. (John 18:5-6) The Septuagint, the old testament translation into Greek uses that same phrase "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14 where God tells Moses who is sending him back down to Egypt. That is the "I AM", the name of God the rabbis would never pronounce. The pharisees help us here also. They too understood Jesus claim to deity and were very upset. (Luke 5:23 & 7:49)Either Jesus is God, Immanuel, God with us, or He is the biggest, most arrogant deceiver that ever walked on this planet. If He is God, we do well to pay attention and give Him our obedience.
I suggest you study scripture a little more closely before making statements about Jesus.
....i reckon Mother Teresa....
She came to God the only way anyone can - by faith in Jesus Christ. It is because she believed in Him and truly loved Him, that she lived such a exemplary life few of us manage.
As far as who to believe -- believe in the One who is alive at this moment. Jesus is the only one who is not dead. For starters, read the Gospel of John as many times needed until you are able to act upon what Jesus says therein. Ask God to help you understand it. After that read the other Gospels, the rest of the New Testament and then wade into the old. Maybe you'll change you mind about God after that.
....One just goes back into non-being .......
That is unfortunately neither in accord with what Jesus clearly said nor with God's laws of physics. Nothing goes out of existence, but only changes form and place. Part of that 'image of God' in man is our eternal makeup. The same word "eternal" as applied to happiness in heaven is also used for the anguish of hell. Hell is an awful place which Jesus described in terms of the worst kind of pain we humans can physically experience - that of fire and burning. If hell were not such a bad place to end up, then Jesus would not have to go through hell himself on our behalf. After all if there is no hell, we go out of existence or hell is NOT really so bad after all, then Jesus went to the cross for nothing.
..... It would be better to just kill these people off .......
If God did that, he'd have to 'kill' himself first. Death doesn't mean going out of existence. Nothing in the physical world does that. Things change form and place, but still exist. You are made in the image of God. That is why you are an eternal being, extremely valuable to Him.
The Bible mentions two deaths. The first one we are very familiar with as our loved ones bodies die, one by one. The second death is eternal separation from God's presence. God has given us the ability to want to be with Him or not. We can only want. However He alone has the made it possible to actually make it happen by taking our sin upon Himself at the cross. Anyone who truly wants to be with God forever WILL come to accept the gift of salvation by faith. God will never use His divine power to force anyone to go to heaven or hell. He is limited by His nature, love and justice. Love will never force anyone into heaven and justice will never allow evil to enter there.
.....Agnosticism is the idea that you can't know whether or not god exists....
The fact is though that many so called agnostics don't really want to know whether God is. If they admit to that possibility, then a lot of uncomfortable questions arise which they'd rather not have to deal with.
.....Where did this mind come from?.......
It is hard for us time bound creatures to even imagine someone or something that has always existed, someone that just IS. Moses was given the name of God as "I AM" the eternally self existing one. You just have chosen to completely deny His existence, because if you even admitted even in the slightest that there possibly could be a Creator after all, who made you, a very uncomfortable series of thoughts will come into your mind. Some are: If there is a possibility, even a small one, that there is a God, then what, if any is my responsibility to Him? Is there maybe a judgement after death? If there is, what are my chances? Was Jesus who He claimed to be, the Immanuel, 'God with us" the "I AM" come to earth? When he claimed to be THE truth, was He lying or deceived?
What if there is a heaven and a hell and physical death of only the body, with its brain, is not the end of my existence? After all, in the physical world there is no extinction either. There are conservation laws. When you burn a piece of wood in your fireplace it doesn't go out of existence. It only changes form. Matter and energy cannot be destroyed and neither can the eternal spirit person that is the real conscious you. Right now you still have opportunity to determine the CORRECT answer to these and other important questions concerning your eternal destiny. I suggest you don't fool yourself, but earnestly seek true answers to these questions.
.....There are no facts of science. Science is a process.....
Would it not more accurate to say that the process you describe well and succinctly discovers certain facts about our physical existence? Digging in the earth we do find fossils. Astronomers measure starlight and discover the red-shift. These are then interpreted through the world view of either there is or there is not a Creator. Anyone who admits a Creator then is faced with the uncomfortable prospect of being accountable to such a Creator. That is where our human sin problem comes in. Because we are sinners, we feel very uneasy, yes plagued by guilt in the light of His perfection and demand for justice. Only God Himself could fix that and He did. He became fully human, in Jesus Christ, and took care of our sin by becoming our sin bearer so we would not have to bear that sin ourselves forever. God made the entire universe by simply speaking into existence, but He had to do hard work and suffer the cross in order to redeem us humans from sin. Salvation is free to us, but was very costly to God. Anyone who spurns this gift through unbelief will get perfect justice rather than mercy. I, and I believe you too have chosen the mercy route. I certainly hope and pray that some our fellow readers on this forum will do so also.