That is certainly true, but I think that there is more than intellectual understanding. The SETI project is a modern manifestation of mankind's intuition that there may be or should be more to reality than our own existence here in this little corner of the vast universe. Why do many, if not most of us yearn to find out this undefinable thing we have labeled "the meaning of life"? Why is there this human quest for finding purpose of existence? Animals seem to be interested in little more than where their next meal or mate is coming from. Why is it that the idea of sacrifice, the giving up of something valuable, often needed or at least useful for survival, is seen only in humans? The idea of sacrifice implies that deep inside many humans, throughout the ages and still today, is a vague sense or feeling that we have a lack or responsibility to a power greater than ourselves, above and beyond us and our physical, temporal existence.
(...attributed to gods or the supernatural...)
In our modern world, many like to think we can look to science to explain everything, including the mysterious or what we still label as supernatural or miraculous. Science is limited to physical laws and phenomena, specifically the law of cause and effect. Science cannot, is not equipped to deal with effects where a cause cannot be established. That is why science cannot deal with God, because of necessity, if He is the First cause, cannot have a cause. One question I have asked a number of times here in this and other forums is this: "Is it possible for anyone to distinguish sufficiently advanced technology from the supernatural or miracle?" If that is possible, what would be a test by which to tell? So far I have never gotten a good answer to that question.
There are different kinds of popularity. Most things popular come and go and some are lasting, undimmed by the ravages of time. Some things are popular only in limited cultures and contexts for a short while. Just because something is popular does not mean it is true and does not mean it is false either. It just happens to be popular. So then we have to ask why is something popular for a short time, like a fad, or why this popularity should go on for generation after generation, century after century? Exactly why it is that an ancient text such as the Bible is so widely distributed to every language culture and nation on earth? There really is no human answer to this question, but it is to me a clear manifestation, that a higher power, specifically God, is behind this. Jesus specifically predicted that his word would be spread to all tongues and nations and once that was accomplished He will return to Earth.
(...Is it really your goal to attempt to do the same to western civilisation?...)
No. If you study of the history of early western science and scientists you would learn that most of them were Christians. They believed in an orderly God having created the orderly universe which they could study by observation and experiment. They laid the foundations of discovering the underlying laws that are at the base of our modern technological civilization. Whether the world was created in six days, 6 ns or 6 billion years or more is totally irrelevant in discovering or utilizing the laws of nature. Your computer, automobile, cell phones and the DNA in your body, in short, everything in our world today, will operate just fine, regardless how long it took to make the universe.
The issue is not science or scientific discovery or progress, but a philosophical worldview. As soon as you even begin to admit the possibility that the universe, especially living things, is a highly complex engineering masterpiece, the question of the nature of the engineer behind it all naturally arises. If there is such a One, could He also have the ability and desire to hold us accountable for how we live? That really is the heart of the issue. We really don't want to be held accountable for our bad behavior. It is because of this, that we humans go to such great lengths to explain the existence of this incredible universe and all the teeming life forms here on earth, by any and all means EXCEPT an intelligent creator God. We come up with all sorts of wild, far out theories of probabilities, Big Bang, strings and multiple universes, just to avoid the possibility at all costs, that there might be a God who will hold each of us accountable on judgment day for how we lived in this life. We fool ourselves by cloaking this inner fear with the mantle of science.
The irony of all this is, that this creator God who exists loves his entire creation, especially people. He wants to have a loving and pleasure filled relationship with everyone. That is why Jesus Christ came here from beyond time and space, as a human being. He taught us to relate to God as a father, a loving father. Christians have been praying for centuries: "Our father...". Anyone who does not freely wish to relate and submit to God as his or her father will eventually face him as a judge.
In the Bible we read: "It is appointed unto men to die once, but after that comes the judgment". The first part of this sentence cannot be disputed, but the second part is not given much credence anymore today, especially by those who read and post to this Internet/. forum.
...Indeed, it should be disregarded precisely because the creation account found in the Bible is demonstrably false...
Do you say this because you or anyone else was there and saw it happen? Exactly where and when has anyone demonstrated that this account is false? We observe that the universe is here and arrogantly assume that from things present we can determine how it began. Such incredible human arrogance I cannot understand it. How can history to be proven? In fact, how can anything be proven? How do you know whether Socrates, Plato, Julius Caesar, Jesus Christ or any historical figure ever really existed? Don't you understand that you have to believe witnesses? No witness in court or otherwise has ever proved anything. Any witness in court or written history, can only be believed or disbelieved. Physical evidence we have of the past, such as fossils and rocks is only another witness, again, to be believed or not. Sure you can say that you disbelieve the creation account in the Bible, but you can not demonstrate it to be false.
(...then one can accept that there are true facts about the universe...)
There is a vast difference between the true facts about our world which we actually observe and the interpretation and meaning we give to such facts. The Biblical creation account is in accord with the observed facts, but in violent disagreement with present-day interpretations and beliefs concerning these facts. The fact is, that the universe is here, we find ourselves in it and from that alone are trying to figure out how the universe and we ourselves got here. Many people today tend to disbelieve the written testimony of the One who was there when He created everything but rather favor their own conjectures.
(...the fundamental question is whether some putative moral imperatives written down in some ancient story are actually mandated by a god...)
It is a fundamental fact that science operates by observing and trying to understand the consistent rules by which space, time, and matter and energy are governed. We call them the laws of physics, which we neither legislated nor control. They just are. The same is true of the rules that govern human behavior, what we call morality. Nobody can break the laws of physics with impunity, not suffering the consequences. The same is true with the laws of morality. It seems in this case though, that people get away with lies, murder, theft, dishonesty and gross selfishness. That however is an illusion because the laws of morality and human behavior do not operate instantaneously the way the laws of physics do. Your nose does not grow longer every time you tell a lie. However there are consequences that follow just as surely as jumping off a tall building or sticking your finger into an energized light socket.
(...a deity who could create the universe and all the beings in it certainly wouldn't need to write down these things down in a book...)
No, he would not HAVE to, but could CHOOSE to do it that way could he not? Unlike any animal, we have received the art of writing as a gift to allow us to pass on our thoughts and ideas to succeeding generations. I believe that God has chosen this method to pass on his ideas and thoughts to all generations also. That is why, unlike any other book, the Bible, which claims to be God's communication to man, has been and still is more widely distributed and translated that any other human writing. It is not a book written by a single or maybe two authors over months or years of time, such as other religious writings, but it is a library of 66 books penned by 40 different authors over 1500 years of time. Yet it has the distinct characteristics of having a single author. Because the Bible is such a remarkable book, is also why Johannes Gutenberg chose the Bible as the first major human written work to be printed and thus enjoy wide distribution.
(...endless stream of posts arguing that "faith" is more important than true knowledge...)
Faith, reason and knowledge are a strong triangle support
...But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'...
Here Jesus makes a definite statement about creation and specifically about human beings. If that statement is false, if today's probabilistic evolution is true, then Jesus statements have no foundation in fact and are only expressions of his opinion. The first verse of the Bible is the foundation of everything. If that is not true, and everything built upon that foundation is equally not true. If the foundation of a bridge or building is faulty or broken, that structure will eventually fail. The biggest argument brought up against a literal interpretation of Genesis is the time factor. Modern evolutionists know and agree, that without immense periods of time, evolution is an impossibility. If there is a Creator God, he could have created the universe in billions of years as today's theory of evolution demands. Yet, he could have also done it in six days or 6 ns. Since only God was there in the beginning when he created everything, we all either have to believe what he tells us or come up with our own theories. When you tell another person something that you know to be true, to which they reply: " I don't believe you", they are telling you that you are a liar or an idiot that doesn't know what you're talking about. I don't think that the God of the universe, the creator of all, appreciates being labeled as such by anyone.
Science is only possible because we observe certain regular behavior of matter and energy throughout time. We have termed this particular predictable behavior the "laws of physics". We did not and cannot legislate these laws, they just are. They apply to the realms of space, time, and matter-energy. They do not apply to love, hate, murder, theft, selfishness and other behavior aspects of human beings. Most modern people seem to be under the belief, that we humans generated what we have come to call moral laws in and of ourselves, rather than that they also, like the laws of physics, just are. In the same way, we are informed in the pages of the holy Bible that God just is.
....Encoding a binary message in the cosmic background radiation would do the trick for me....
That assumes that you have the intelligence and the equipment to receive such a message in the first place. If the message is encrypted, and you don't have the key, it will appear to you as random noise. This is exactly how the cosmic background radiation does appear to us, random noise. Therefore, in addition to the encoded binary message, God would also have to supply you with the key and the algorithm necessary to decode the message. It would also mean that God could have not communicated to mankind until 1948 when the cosmic background radiation was first noticed. All that, seems rather convoluted to me. How do you know that the cosmic background radiation is NOT an encrypted binary message from God? How would he reveal to you the key and algorithms necessary to decrypt it? Would he give it to you on a floppy or a USB stick?
In the Gospel records we read that despite all the evidence of deity Jesus clearly demonstrated, those that did not WANT to believe simply refused to. They saw and experienced his words and deeds right there in front of them. To believe in Jesus as God, means to be willing to submit to him. No amount of evidence will convince a person of truth that they are not willing to submit to. A man convinced against his will will forever remain unconvinced still.
...Macs are bought for preference, not because they're more suited to development...
That depends on what is to be developed for. If you want to develop for the iPhone or iTouch, or of course the increasingly popular Macintosh, you would have to buy a Mac anyway, in addition to your solid, cheaper PC. So now, you would have two computers cluttering up your office and taking up space, rather than only one. Can you justify that cost?
...An other explanation might simply be that humans evolved as group/pack animals,...
The main problem I see with that explanation is that no other animal "evolved" any kind of behavior that could reasonably be termed "religious". No animal has ever been observed in what could be described as prayer or worship. Religious activity differentiates humans from all other animals in kind, not just in degree. Everything than humans do, animals have also been observed doing, of course on a vastly lower level. If you can name any other activity that man does, that is not at all found to some degree in some animals, please do so.
According to the Darwinian evolutionary theory, survival of the "fittest" is its driving force. Those organisms that are more "fit" survive to pass their genes on to the next generation. Nobody has ever explained to me how the "wasting" of resources and energy on religious activity, collectively or individually, makes humans more "fit" to survive. If anything, NOT spending time and effort building cathedrals, churches, synagogues and mosques, as well as engaging in other religious trappings, such as embarking on long weary, dangerous pilgrimages to distant places, should be an evolutionary advantage to those groups and individuals who avoid all that. Eventually, survival energy sapping religion should have evolved into extinction. Why has this not happened?
We read in Genesis that God made man in His image and likeness in contrast to any animal. Man alone has been given a unique ability and yearning to communicate with his Creator. That is why there never has been and never will be a culture or tribe that is not religious. Even those who deny the existence of God, eagerly spend billions in programs such as SETI, in the hope of having some communications with other inhabitants of this vast universe. Man doesn't at all like the idea that we are drifting through this immense universe alone and without purpose on this third rock from the sun. The "God theory" certainly fits observations from history, the present time, human behavior seen still today, as well as nature, better than the mechanical probabilistic evolution theory.
are only valuable if they are believed to be based on truth. If any of the statements of the Bible can be shown to be untrue, then how can we know that the statements that cannot be verified are not also false? Jesus referred to the creation account, specifically when asked about divorce and marriage. If the creation account, as found in the Bible is demonstrably false, then why should Jesus reference to it not be equally false and therefore be disregarded? If the foundational statements about God and creation in Genesis are false, then why should the rest of the statements from anywhere in Scripture not also be false? Can we human beings really use our intellect and understanding to determine which aspects of the Bible are true and which are not?
It is of course good and admirable and very necessary for us to love our fellows, but the fundamental question is not whether the guidelines given in the Bible are admirable and good, but whether they are true. Most other religions and sacred books have good guidelines for human behavior. The most important question is this: Did God reveal objective truth to us or not? Of course, there are many today who will dispute that such a thing as objective truth even exists. If that were really the case, then doing science would be impossible.
So this was all of history. Does that mean history is false, both recent and ancient? Did George Washington really live? You can't go back and meet him and talk to them can you? Was there a really Julius Caesar in the city of Rome? You have to take the truth of the writings of history for that don't you? Why should the writings of the Bible have less credibility than any other historical writing? The fact is, that there are more ancient manuscripts of the biblical record than of any other historical records. Just because they relate to events which we call supernatural, does not by itself mean they are untrue and not things that actually happened. There is no way that we humans by our own intellect can tell the difference between sufficiently advanced technology and what we have called miracles. If there is a God, or even seriously advanced space aliens, we would it be still be left with either believing the evidence given or not.
Even at the present time, there are many experiments you can do to deceive your senses. Do your senses always tell you the truth? In the end, we all have no choice, except to either believe or disbelieve. If you believe that an airplane will carry you to your destination, you will get on board. If you truly believe that it will be hijacked and flown into a tall building, you will take a bus or a train. Our everyday life is based more on faith than on sure knowledge.
...Also, why should I believe these fairy tales of people who claim to have had a deity visit them?....
If God were to come and visit you personally tomorrow, standing right there in front of you, what evidence would you accept, be convinced and worship him?
....Soon there will be more Muslims then Christians - does that mean that then Islam will be true?...
Since when has truth ever depended on popularity? That applies equally to philosophical, religious or scientific truth. Evidently, you did not read my post very well. Ultimately, the question of origins cannot be resolved by science, because science is limited to the law of cause and effect. You must have missed that. Science can answer many questions about the universe, but the questions of origins are not included. Science is good and great and very useful, but it is not the end-all and be-all of all things and definitely cannot answer the most important questions that humans have asked since the beginning. The deepest and most important questions can only be answered by faith. The fact that the humanity is incurably religious, abundantly proves of this.
...i find it even more insulting to think that even if there is a god, why doesn't he show himself?...
If there is a God and he came and stood in front of you to make that claim, what evidence or proof would you require, so you could be convinced that this was really true? Would it be sufficient for you if he were able to instantly stop a violent storm by a simple verbal command? How about, if you were in a boat and he came walking over to you on the surface of the lake? Would it be sufficient evidence for you if he turned to a few hundred gallons of water into really good tasting wine? How about if he managed to feed 5000 or more people with nothing more than a few loaves and fish? How about if you stood in a graveyard and you were there with him and witnessed, along with the entire funeral attendees gathered there, him calling out a dead person by name and that person came out of the grave? What if you witnessed his person who claims to be God, get cruelly murdered and rise again from the dead on the third day and show himself to you and to your friends? Would that be good enough?
Exactly what would it take today, right now, for you to be convinced that a person claiming to be God, such as Jesus Christ did, really is telling the truth and cause you to worship him as God?
...All science can't prove that god does or doesn't exist...
The reason for this is really quite simple. The most fundamental law of science is the law of cause and effect. No matter how far back you roll the causes of how and why things are really the way we observe them, ultimately, you must arrive at a cause that has NO cause. This is where science has come to end its rope had faith must begin.
....Whoever we're looking for, we know he'll have a musical degree and a conductor's baton....
No, we are looking for a piano player.
There was a family of mice who lived all their lives in a piano, just as we live in our fragments of the universe. And to them in the piano-world came the music of the instrument filling all the dark places with sound and harmony. At first the mice were very much impressed by it. They drew comfort and wonder from the thought that there was Someone who made the music -- though invisible to them-- above, yet close to them. And they loved to think of the Great Player whom they could not see.
Then one day a daring mouse climbed up part of the piano and returned very thoughtful. He had discovered how the music was made. Wires were the secret; tightly stretched wires of graduated lengths which trembled and vibrated. They must revise all their old beliefs: none but the most conservative could any longer believe in the Unseen Player.
Later, another explorer carried the explanation further. Hammers were the secret; dozens of hammers dancing and leaping on the wires. This was a more complicated theory, but it all went to show that they lived in a purely mechanical and mathematical world.
The Unseen Player came to be thought of as a myth. But the Pianist continued to play the piano.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
...when it was discovered that the universe was expanding at an accelerating rate....
That was not and still is not a discovery, but an interpretation what astronomers call the red shift. He only observation we have is that distant starlight has shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. The reason for this has been interpreted to be the doppler effect. There is increasing evidence that is observed red shift is not caused by motion, but by fundamental changes in all atomic structures in the universe. All atoms are affected by the intrinsic nature of space itself. Like most things in nature, the properties of space have not been constant throughout all time.
....Who created the creator ? Nobody, he's always been. Mathematically that's simple to express and quite consistent....
If Genesis 1 verse one is really true, then on what basis can anyone reject the rest of the Bible? If there is a Creator God, and I believe there is, who can create a whole universe out of nothing, then what problem can there be to accept the other "supernatural" stuff in the Bible? How can anyone tell sufficiently advanced technology from the supernatural? Is it such a stretch for a God that has the power to create a whole universe from absolutely nothing, to take whatever amount of time, which of course is also created by him, as he wants to? If he wanted to do it in six days, or 6 billion years, does he not have that choice? At its heart, science is the study of cause and effect. It cannot fathom or study a fact that has no cause. That is the ultimate paradox. That is why the things of God can only be grasped and understood by faith.
.... "well if there is some creator of our universe, then who or what created the creator?"....
Ultimately, the creator of the universe, whatever or whoever that might have been might been has to be an itself/himself/herself uncreated, self existent eternal entity. Another way of stating this that the first cause must of necessity be uncaused. Since science is the study of cause and effect, the concepts and methods of science break down and cannot answer the question of ultimate origin. Any answer can only come from the domain of faith, belief, as commonly manifested in religion.
If such a creator, God, if you will, really exists, the only way we can ever find out anything at all, is if she/he/it chooses to communicate to us humans. If such a communication did happen, we would still be stuck with the issue of believing or disbelieving that this communication was genuine and true.
There are many sacred writings that make various claims as to their divine or supernatural origin. Of all such writings existing on earth, I believe, that the holy Bible is the best candidate for the true communication of this self existing Creator God. Here is why:
Even if a person not accept the Bible as truth, or as God's message to mankind, an open minded person certainly should be able to consider that it is a very unusual book. Actually it is a collection of 66 books penned by 40 different writers over a time span of at least 1500 years. In spite of this, it bears hallmarks of centrally planned continuity.
For thousands of years, all human writing had to be laboriously copied by hand. When the art of printing was finally invented by Johannes Gutenberg, which human writing was first printed? Which human writing is STILL distributed more widely than any other and translated into more languages and dialects than any other? Which book have its enemies have endeavored to destroy more than any other throughout the centuries? There are many religious writings, but none of them come even remotely close to the content and distribution of this remarkable book.
Many say that the Bible is scientifically inaccurate. Would it not be more honest to say that it appears that certain parts of the Bible seem to be contrary to our present scientific understanding? The Bible opens with this majestic declaration: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Are we, even today, in a position to unequivocally declare that this statement is untrue? If a person accepts this opening declaration as truth, does it then become impossible to accept everything else that follows as truth as well?
....Can I change it to 11/17/08 format so that it's easier to read with having to resize the column? No, that feature is only available in windows....
Not true, all that can be changed in the system preferences dat/time panel which refers you to the International panel. The Apple UI is better thought out than Windows and so the incentive to customize is far less to begin with, but still possible for those who want to fiddle with the settings.
...and they're losing a lot of business because of it....
I seriously doubt that statement. Apple's main business is not catering to developers, but to ordinary users. Their iMac and Macpro line is designed for the majority of all such users. Anyone who is a professional programmer or artist making a living with a computer will buy the best tool for their profession that money can buy. As in most professions, a cheap tool that does not work well is the most expensive one in the long run. An 8 core Mac-Pro with 8 or more GB of RAM is definitely expensive, but will pay for itself for use by anyone making a living with it. In addition to its native OSX with its normal applications, it can run Windows VISTA, XP and Linux in their 32 or 64 bit versions all at the same time in separate virtual machines.
A hammer and a bucket of nails is a lot cheaper than a professional nailing gun together with its high-performance air compressor. The expense of such would not be worth it to a weekend handyman, but definitely to a professional house builder.
....You may hope that nothing bad happens, much as you might hope that if you purchase a lottery ticket that you'll win....
It appears there is a semantic problem. You call it hope and I called it faith. That's OK, I can agree that we hope (or believe) that we will get safely to our destination.
(...When you choose to get into a vehicle you're gambling based on the knowledge that the odds are in your favor...)
Yes, life is indeed a gamble and many are betting that death will be the cessation of their conscious existence. If that were the case, the human spirit, consciousness, soul, whatever you want to call it, is the ONLY thing that goes out of existence. NOTHING ever goes out of existence in the entire universe, but only changes form.
Another gamble many make is WHERE this eternal, real part of their person goes, as based on their present life. If people like Mother Theresa , having lived a "good", selfless life are wrong about eternity, what have they lost if they indeed just simply evaporate into nothingness, as most people believe (hope) today? However, if a person who believes (hopes) in the "nothingness" theory lives for self, without love and regard to others, finds out after death that there IS a hell, a place of eternal damnation after all, who has made the more foolish gamble?
Science cannot help you make the choice in how you live your life, because only faith, or hope, if you will, can travel beyond the grave. Jesus Christ ALONE came back from death and promises life eternal to those who put their faith, trust and hope in Him. Science is good. I have been in the academic scientific community for over 30 years and know its limitations and methods. Do not put your hope in science or religion, but in someone who came back from death and has the power to keep His promise to give life to anyone who hopes in Him. This life doesn't start after death, but can be yours right now, as it is for me already.
Whose rules? Yours? Some politician's? The Supreme Court's? It seems there still are and always will be millions of people on this planet who will not and cannot live only such rules. Man is and always has been incurably religious and there are no signs that this will ever change. There are people in this world who will fly airplanes into buildings and blow themselves into tiny pieces over the really important questions that science cannot answer. Most things we, even we Westerners do, are based on faith, belief, not sure knowledge. You don't get into an airplane or a car because you know for sure that it will take you to the other end where you want to go, but you believe there is a good statistical probability that you will get there. The question, will I get to my destination is not answerable by science, but only in belief over good probability that you will.
The weapon based on the "ledbetter effect" in Heinein's "6th Column" was pretty good. This "Ledbetter Projector" weapon could be set to cause the "Pan-Asians" who had conquered the US to "explode into a cloud of greasy black smoke" while leaving anyone else unharmed.
....provide answers to questions with no known explanations.....
So who provides answers to questions with no explanations today? Science? Politicians? The courts? Maybe people are so self absorbed these days you don't even ask such questions anymore. Maybe there are no more questions that have no explanations and our technological and "enlightened" age. After all humanity has gotten so smart and advanced that we can come up with an answer to every question, stupid or otherwise.
...Delusion or not, false beliefs should be eliminated....
The problem is, how does one do that? Can the presentation of evidence work? Can anyone who does not believe or believe something be persuaded by any amount of evidence? Can a person be persuaded against their will by any amount of evidence? There are people today who believe that the moon landing in 1969 was staged by Hollywood.
Slashdot Mirror
...Man has a yearning to understand the world....
That is certainly true, but I think that there is more than intellectual understanding. The SETI project is a modern manifestation of mankind's intuition that there may be or should be more to reality than our own existence here in this little corner of the vast universe. Why do many, if not most of us yearn to find out this undefinable thing we have labeled "the meaning of life"? Why is there this human quest for finding purpose of existence? Animals seem to be interested in little more than where their next meal or mate is coming from. Why is it that the idea of sacrifice, the giving up of something valuable, often needed or at least useful for survival, is seen only in humans? The idea of sacrifice implies that deep inside many humans, throughout the ages and still today, is a vague sense or feeling that we have a lack or responsibility to a power greater than ourselves, above and beyond us and our physical, temporal existence.
(...attributed to gods or the supernatural...)
In our modern world, many like to think we can look to science to explain everything, including the mysterious or what we still label as supernatural or miraculous. Science is limited to physical laws and phenomena, specifically the law of cause and effect. Science cannot, is not equipped to deal with effects where a cause cannot be established. That is why science cannot deal with God, because of necessity, if He is the First cause, cannot have a cause. One question I have asked a number of times here in this and other forums is this: "Is it possible for anyone to distinguish sufficiently advanced technology from the supernatural or miracle?" If that is possible, what would be a test by which to tell? So far I have never gotten a good answer to that question.
...Argument from popularity again....
There are different kinds of popularity. Most things popular come and go and some are lasting, undimmed by the ravages of time. Some things are popular only in limited cultures and contexts for a short while. Just because something is popular does not mean it is true and does not mean it is false either. It just happens to be popular. So then we have to ask why is something popular for a short time, like a fad, or why this popularity should go on for generation after generation, century after century? Exactly why it is that an ancient text such as the Bible is so widely distributed to every language culture and nation on earth? There really is no human answer to this question, but it is to me a clear manifestation, that a higher power, specifically God, is behind this. Jesus specifically predicted that his word would be spread to all tongues and nations and once that was accomplished He will return to Earth.
(...Is it really your goal to attempt to do the same to western civilisation?...)
No. If you study of the history of early western science and scientists you would learn that most of them were Christians. They believed in an orderly God having created the orderly universe which they could study by observation and experiment. They laid the foundations of discovering the underlying laws that are at the base of our modern technological civilization. Whether the world was created in six days, 6 ns or 6 billion years or more is totally irrelevant in discovering or utilizing the laws of nature. Your computer, automobile, cell phones and the DNA in your body, in short, everything in our world today, will operate just fine, regardless how long it took to make the universe.
The issue is not science or scientific discovery or progress, but a philosophical worldview. As soon as you even begin to admit the possibility that the universe, especially living things, is a highly complex engineering masterpiece, the question of the nature of the engineer behind it all naturally arises. If there is such a One, could He also have the ability and desire to hold us accountable for how we live? That really is the heart of the issue. We really don't want to be held accountable for our bad behavior. It is because of this, that we humans go to such great lengths to explain the existence of this incredible universe and all the teeming life forms here on earth, by any and all means EXCEPT an intelligent creator God. We come up with all sorts of wild, far out theories of probabilities, Big Bang, strings and multiple universes, just to avoid the possibility at all costs, that there might be a God who will hold each of us accountable on judgment day for how we lived in this life. We fool ourselves by cloaking this inner fear with the mantle of science.
The irony of all this is, that this creator God who exists loves his entire creation, especially people. He wants to have a loving and pleasure filled relationship with everyone. That is why Jesus Christ came here from beyond time and space, as a human being. He taught us to relate to God as a father, a loving father. Christians have been praying for centuries: "Our father...". Anyone who does not freely wish to relate and submit to God as his or her father will eventually face him as a judge.
In the Bible we read: "It is appointed unto men to die once, but after that comes the judgment". The first part of this sentence cannot be disputed, but the second part is not given much credence anymore today, especially by those who read and post to this Internet /. forum.
...Indeed, it should be disregarded precisely because the creation account found in the Bible is demonstrably false...
Do you say this because you or anyone else was there and saw it happen? Exactly where and when has anyone demonstrated that this account is false? We observe that the universe is here and arrogantly assume that from things present we can determine how it began. Such incredible human arrogance I cannot understand it. How can history to be proven? In fact, how can anything be proven? How do you know whether Socrates, Plato, Julius Caesar, Jesus Christ or any historical figure ever really existed? Don't you understand that you have to believe witnesses? No witness in court or otherwise has ever proved anything. Any witness in court or written history, can only be believed or disbelieved. Physical evidence we have of the past, such as fossils and rocks is only another witness, again, to be believed or not. Sure you can say that you disbelieve the creation account in the Bible, but you can not demonstrate it to be false.
(...then one can accept that there are true facts about the universe...)
There is a vast difference between the true facts about our world which we actually observe and the interpretation and meaning we give to such facts. The Biblical creation account is in accord with the observed facts, but in violent disagreement with present-day interpretations and beliefs concerning these facts. The fact is, that the universe is here, we find ourselves in it and from that alone are trying to figure out how the universe and we ourselves got here. Many people today tend to disbelieve the written testimony of the One who was there when He created everything but rather favor their own conjectures.
(...the fundamental question is whether some putative moral imperatives written down in some ancient story are actually mandated by a god...)
It is a fundamental fact that science operates by observing and trying to understand the consistent rules by which space, time, and matter and energy are governed. We call them the laws of physics, which we neither legislated nor control. They just are. The same is true of the rules that govern human behavior, what we call morality. Nobody can break the laws of physics with impunity, not suffering the consequences. The same is true with the laws of morality. It seems in this case though, that people get away with lies, murder, theft, dishonesty and gross selfishness. That however is an illusion because the laws of morality and human behavior do not operate instantaneously the way the laws of physics do. Your nose does not grow longer every time you tell a lie. However there are consequences that follow just as surely as jumping off a tall building or sticking your finger into an energized light socket.
(...a deity who could create the universe and all the beings in it certainly wouldn't need to write down these things down in a book...)
No, he would not HAVE to, but could CHOOSE to do it that way could he not? Unlike any animal, we have received the art of writing as a gift to allow us to pass on our thoughts and ideas to succeeding generations. I believe that God has chosen this method to pass on his ideas and thoughts to all generations also. That is why, unlike any other book, the Bible, which claims to be God's communication to man, has been and still is more widely distributed and translated that any other human writing. It is not a book written by a single or maybe two authors over months or years of time, such as other religious writings, but it is a library of 66 books penned by 40 different authors over 1500 years of time. Yet it has the distinct characteristics of having a single author. Because the Bible is such a remarkable book, is also why Johannes Gutenberg chose the Bible as the first major human written work to be printed and thus enjoy wide distribution.
(...endless stream of posts arguing that "faith" is more important than true knowledge...)
Faith, reason and knowledge are a strong triangle support
...But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' ...
Here Jesus makes a definite statement about creation and specifically about human beings. If that statement is false, if today's probabilistic evolution is true, then Jesus statements have no foundation in fact and are only expressions of his opinion. The first verse of the Bible is the foundation of everything. If that is not true, and everything built upon that foundation is equally not true. If the foundation of a bridge or building is faulty or broken, that structure will eventually fail. The biggest argument brought up against a literal interpretation of Genesis is the time factor. Modern evolutionists know and agree, that without immense periods of time, evolution is an impossibility. If there is a Creator God, he could have created the universe in billions of years as today's theory of evolution demands. Yet, he could have also done it in six days or 6 ns. Since only God was there in the beginning when he created everything, we all either have to believe what he tells us or come up with our own theories. When you tell another person something that you know to be true, to which they reply: " I don't believe you", they are telling you that you are a liar or an idiot that doesn't know what you're talking about. I don't think that the God of the universe, the creator of all, appreciates being labeled as such by anyone.
Science is only possible because we observe certain regular behavior of matter and energy throughout time. We have termed this particular predictable behavior the "laws of physics". We did not and cannot legislate these laws, they just are. They apply to the realms of space, time, and matter-energy. They do not apply to love, hate, murder, theft, selfishness and other behavior aspects of human beings. Most modern people seem to be under the belief, that we humans generated what we have come to call moral laws in and of ourselves, rather than that they also, like the laws of physics, just are. In the same way, we are informed in the pages of the holy Bible that God just is.
....Encoding a binary message in the cosmic background radiation would do the trick for me....
That assumes that you have the intelligence and the equipment to receive such a message in the first place. If the message is encrypted, and you don't have the key, it will appear to you as random noise. This is exactly how the cosmic background radiation does appear to us, random noise. Therefore, in addition to the encoded binary message, God would also have to supply you with the key and the algorithm necessary to decode the message. It would also mean that God could have not communicated to mankind until 1948 when the cosmic background radiation was first noticed. All that, seems rather convoluted to me. How do you know that the cosmic background radiation is NOT an encrypted binary message from God? How would he reveal to you the key and algorithms necessary to decrypt it? Would he give it to you on a floppy or a USB stick?
In the Gospel records we read that despite all the evidence of deity Jesus clearly demonstrated, those that did not WANT to believe simply refused to. They saw and experienced his words and deeds right there in front of them. To believe in Jesus as God, means to be willing to submit to him. No amount of evidence will convince a person of truth that they are not willing to submit to. A man convinced against his will will forever remain unconvinced still.
...Macs are bought for preference, not because they're more suited to development...
That depends on what is to be developed for. If you want to develop for the iPhone or iTouch, or of course the increasingly popular Macintosh, you would have to buy a Mac anyway, in addition to your solid, cheaper PC. So now, you would have two computers cluttering up your office and taking up space, rather than only one. Can you justify that cost?
...An other explanation might simply be that humans evolved as group/pack animals,...
The main problem I see with that explanation is that no other animal "evolved" any kind of behavior that could reasonably be termed "religious". No animal has ever been observed in what could be described as prayer or worship. Religious activity differentiates humans from all other animals in kind, not just in degree. Everything than humans do, animals have also been observed doing, of course on a vastly lower level. If you can name any other activity that man does, that is not at all found to some degree in some animals, please do so.
According to the Darwinian evolutionary theory, survival of the "fittest" is its driving force. Those organisms that are more "fit" survive to pass their genes on to the next generation. Nobody has ever explained to me how the "wasting" of resources and energy on religious activity, collectively or individually, makes humans more "fit" to survive. If anything, NOT spending time and effort building cathedrals, churches, synagogues and mosques, as well as engaging in other religious trappings, such as embarking on long weary, dangerous pilgrimages to distant places, should be an evolutionary advantage to those groups and individuals who avoid all that. Eventually, survival energy sapping religion should have evolved into extinction. Why has this not happened?
We read in Genesis that God made man in His image and likeness in contrast to any animal. Man alone has been given a unique ability and yearning to communicate with his Creator. That is why there never has been and never will be a culture or tribe that is not religious. Even those who deny the existence of God, eagerly spend billions in programs such as SETI, in the hope of having some communications with other inhabitants of this vast universe. Man doesn't at all like the idea that we are drifting through this immense universe alone and without purpose on this third rock from the sun. The "God theory" certainly fits observations from history, the present time, human behavior seen still today, as well as nature, better than the mechanical probabilistic evolution theory.
...moral/ethical guidelines...
are only valuable if they are believed to be based on truth. If any of the statements of the Bible can be shown to be untrue, then how can we know that the statements that cannot be verified are not also false? Jesus referred to the creation account, specifically when asked about divorce and marriage. If the creation account, as found in the Bible is demonstrably false, then why should Jesus reference to it not be equally false and therefore be disregarded? If the foundational statements about God and creation in Genesis are false, then why should the rest of the statements from anywhere in Scripture not also be false? Can we human beings really use our intellect and understanding to determine which aspects of the Bible are true and which are not?
It is of course good and admirable and very necessary for us to love our fellows, but the fundamental question is not whether the guidelines given in the Bible are admirable and good, but whether they are true. Most other religions and sacred books have good guidelines for human behavior. The most important question is this: Did God reveal objective truth to us or not? Of course, there are many today who will dispute that such a thing as objective truth even exists. If that were really the case, then doing science would be impossible.
....With religion, everything is second hand...
So this was all of history. Does that mean history is false, both recent and ancient? Did George Washington really live? You can't go back and meet him and talk to them can you? Was there a really Julius Caesar in the city of Rome? You have to take the truth of the writings of history for that don't you? Why should the writings of the Bible have less credibility than any other historical writing? The fact is, that there are more ancient manuscripts of the biblical record than of any other historical records. Just because they relate to events which we call supernatural, does not by itself mean they are untrue and not things that actually happened. There is no way that we humans by our own intellect can tell the difference between sufficiently advanced technology and what we have called miracles. If there is a God, or even seriously advanced space aliens, we would it be still be left with either believing the evidence given or not.
Even at the present time, there are many experiments you can do to deceive your senses. Do your senses always tell you the truth? In the end, we all have no choice, except to either believe or disbelieve. If you believe that an airplane will carry you to your destination, you will get on board. If you truly believe that it will be hijacked and flown into a tall building, you will take a bus or a train. Our everyday life is based more on faith than on sure knowledge.
...Also, why should I believe these fairy tales of people who claim to have had a deity visit them?....
If God were to come and visit you personally tomorrow, standing right there in front of you, what evidence would you accept, be convinced and worship him?
....Soon there will be more Muslims then Christians - does that mean that then Islam will be true?...
Since when has truth ever depended on popularity? That applies equally to philosophical, religious or scientific truth. Evidently, you did not read my post very well. Ultimately, the question of origins cannot be resolved by science, because science is limited to the law of cause and effect. You must have missed that. Science can answer many questions about the universe, but the questions of origins are not included. Science is good and great and very useful, but it is not the end-all and be-all of all things and definitely cannot answer the most important questions that humans have asked since the beginning. The deepest and most important questions can only be answered by faith. The fact that the humanity is incurably religious, abundantly proves of this.
...i find it even more insulting to think that even if there is a god, why doesn't he show himself?...
If there is a God and he came and stood in front of you to make that claim, what evidence or proof would you require, so you could be convinced that this was really true? Would it be sufficient for you if he were able to instantly stop a violent storm by a simple verbal command? How about, if you were in a boat and he came walking over to you on the surface of the lake? Would it be sufficient evidence for you if he turned to a few hundred gallons of water into really good tasting wine? How about if he managed to feed 5000 or more people with nothing more than a few loaves and fish? How about if you stood in a graveyard and you were there with him and witnessed, along with the entire funeral attendees gathered there, him calling out a dead person by name and that person came out of the grave? What if you witnessed his person who claims to be God, get cruelly murdered and rise again from the dead on the third day and show himself to you and to your friends? Would that be good enough?
Exactly what would it take today, right now, for you to be convinced that a person claiming to be God, such as Jesus Christ did, really is telling the truth and cause you to worship him as God?
...All science can't prove that god does or doesn't exist...
The reason for this is really quite simple. The most fundamental law of science is the law of cause and effect. No matter how far back you roll the causes of how and why things are really the way we observe them, ultimately, you must arrive at a cause that has NO cause. This is where science has come to end its rope had faith must begin.
....Whoever we're looking for, we know he'll have a musical degree and a conductor's baton....
No, we are looking for a piano player.
There was a family of mice who lived all their lives in a piano, just as we live in our fragments of the universe. And to them in the piano-world came the music of the instrument filling all the dark places with sound and harmony. At first the mice were very much impressed by it. They drew comfort and wonder from the thought that there was Someone who made the music -- though invisible to them-- above, yet close to them. And they loved to think of the Great Player whom they could not see.
Then one day a daring mouse climbed up part of the piano and returned very thoughtful. He had discovered how the music was made. Wires were the secret; tightly stretched wires of graduated lengths which trembled and vibrated. They must revise all their old beliefs: none but the most conservative could any longer believe in the Unseen Player.
Later, another explorer carried the explanation further. Hammers were the secret; dozens of hammers dancing and leaping on the wires. This was a more complicated theory, but it all went to show that they lived in a purely mechanical and mathematical world.
The Unseen Player came to be thought of as a myth. But the Pianist continued to play the piano.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
...when it was discovered that the universe was expanding at an accelerating rate....
That was not and still is not a discovery, but an interpretation what astronomers call the red shift. He only observation we have is that distant starlight has shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. The reason for this has been interpreted to be the doppler effect. There is increasing evidence that is observed red shift is not caused by motion, but by fundamental changes in all atomic structures in the universe. All atoms are affected by the intrinsic nature of space itself. Like most things in nature, the properties of space have not been constant throughout all time.
....Who created the creator ? Nobody, he's always been. Mathematically that's simple to express and quite consistent....
If Genesis 1 verse one is really true, then on what basis can anyone reject the rest of the Bible? If there is a Creator God, and I believe there is, who can create a whole universe out of nothing, then what problem can there be to accept the other "supernatural" stuff in the Bible? How can anyone tell sufficiently advanced technology from the supernatural? Is it such a stretch for a God that has the power to create a whole universe from absolutely nothing, to take whatever amount of time, which of course is also created by him, as he wants to? If he wanted to do it in six days, or 6 billion years, does he not have that choice? At its heart, science is the study of cause and effect. It cannot fathom or study a fact that has no cause. That is the ultimate paradox. That is why the things of God can only be grasped and understood by faith.
.... "well if there is some creator of our universe, then who or what created the creator?"....
Ultimately, the creator of the universe, whatever or whoever that might have been might been has to be an itself/himself/herself uncreated, self existent eternal entity. Another way of stating this that the first cause must of necessity be uncaused. Since science is the study of cause and effect, the concepts and methods of science break down and cannot answer the question of ultimate origin. Any answer can only come from the domain of faith, belief, as commonly manifested in religion.
If such a creator, God, if you will, really exists, the only way we can ever find out anything at all, is if she/he/it chooses to communicate to us humans. If such a communication did happen, we would still be stuck with the issue of believing or disbelieving that this communication was genuine and true.
There are many sacred writings that make various claims as to their divine or supernatural origin. Of all such writings existing on earth, I believe, that the holy Bible is the best candidate for the true communication of this self existing Creator God. Here is why:
Even if a person not accept the Bible as truth, or as God's message to mankind, an open minded person certainly should be able to consider that it is a very unusual book. Actually it is a collection of 66 books penned by 40 different writers over a time span of at least 1500 years. In spite of this, it bears hallmarks of centrally planned continuity.
For thousands of years, all human writing had to be laboriously copied by hand. When the art of printing was finally invented by Johannes Gutenberg, which human writing was first printed? Which human writing is STILL distributed more widely than any other and translated into more languages and dialects than any other? Which book have its enemies have endeavored to destroy more than any other throughout the centuries? There are many religious writings, but none of them come even remotely close to the content and distribution of this remarkable book.
Many say that the Bible is scientifically inaccurate. Would it not be more honest to say that it appears that certain parts of the Bible seem to be contrary to our present scientific understanding? The Bible opens with this majestic declaration: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Are we, even today, in a position to unequivocally declare that this statement is untrue? If a person accepts this opening declaration as truth, does it then become impossible to accept everything else that follows as truth as well?
...MacOSX is just an extremely polished old turd....
A polished Mac turd is still nicer than a dull Windows turd.
....Can I change it to 11/17/08 format so that it's easier to read with having to resize the column? No, that feature is only available in windows....
Not true, all that can be changed in the system preferences dat/time panel which refers you to the International panel. The Apple UI is better thought out than Windows and so the incentive to customize is far less to begin with, but still possible for those who want to fiddle with the settings.
...and they're losing a lot of business because of it....
I seriously doubt that statement. Apple's main business is not catering to developers, but to ordinary users. Their iMac and Macpro line is designed for the majority of all such users. Anyone who is a professional programmer or artist making a living with a computer will buy the best tool for their profession that money can buy. As in most professions, a cheap tool that does not work well is the most expensive one in the long run. An 8 core Mac-Pro with 8 or more GB of RAM is definitely expensive, but will pay for itself for use by anyone making a living with it. In addition to its native OSX with its normal applications, it can run Windows VISTA, XP and Linux in their 32 or 64 bit versions all at the same time in separate virtual machines.
A hammer and a bucket of nails is a lot cheaper than a professional nailing gun together with its high-performance air compressor. The expense of such would not be worth it to a weekend handyman, but definitely to a professional house builder.
....You may hope that nothing bad happens, much as you might hope that if you purchase a lottery ticket that you'll win....
It appears there is a semantic problem. You call it hope and I called it faith. That's OK, I can agree that we hope (or believe) that we will get safely to our destination.
(...When you choose to get into a vehicle you're gambling based on the knowledge that the odds are in your favor...)
Yes, life is indeed a gamble and many are betting that death will be the cessation of their conscious existence. If that were the case, the human spirit, consciousness, soul, whatever you want to call it, is the ONLY thing that goes out of existence. NOTHING ever goes out of existence in the entire universe, but only changes form.
Another gamble many make is WHERE this eternal, real part of their person goes, as based on their present life. If people like Mother Theresa , having lived a "good", selfless life are wrong about eternity, what have they lost if they indeed just simply evaporate into nothingness, as most people believe (hope) today? However, if a person who believes (hopes) in the "nothingness" theory lives for self, without love and regard to others, finds out after death that there IS a hell, a place of eternal damnation after all, who has made the more foolish gamble?
Science cannot help you make the choice in how you live your life, because only faith, or hope, if you will, can travel beyond the grave. Jesus Christ ALONE came back from death and promises life eternal to those who put their faith, trust and hope in Him. Science is good. I have been in the academic scientific community for over 30 years and know its limitations and methods. Do not put your hope in science or religion, but in someone who came back from death and has the power to keep His promise to give life to anyone who hopes in Him. This life doesn't start after death, but can be yours right now, as it is for me already.
...is against the rules....
Whose rules? Yours? Some politician's? The Supreme Court's? It seems there still are and always will be millions of people on this planet who will not and cannot live only such rules. Man is and always has been incurably religious and there are no signs that this will ever change. There are people in this world who will fly airplanes into buildings and blow themselves into tiny pieces over the really important questions that science cannot answer. Most things we, even we Westerners do, are based on faith, belief, not sure knowledge. You don't get into an airplane or a car because you know for sure that it will take you to the other end where you want to go, but you believe there is a good statistical probability that you will get there. The question, will I get to my destination is not answerable by science, but only in belief over good probability that you will.
..the most ingenious weapon ever inventerised!...
The weapon based on the "ledbetter effect" in Heinein's "6th Column" was pretty good. This "Ledbetter Projector" weapon could be set to cause the "Pan-Asians" who had conquered the US to "explode into a cloud of greasy black smoke" while leaving anyone else unharmed.
....provide answers to questions with no known explanations.....
So who provides answers to questions with no explanations today? Science? Politicians? The courts? Maybe people are so self absorbed these days you don't even ask such questions anymore. Maybe there are no more questions that have no explanations and our technological and "enlightened" age. After all humanity has gotten so smart and advanced that we can come up with an answer to every question, stupid or otherwise.
...Delusion or not, false beliefs should be eliminated....
The problem is, how does one do that? Can the presentation of evidence work? Can anyone who does not believe or believe something be persuaded by any amount of evidence? Can a person be persuaded against their will by any amount of evidence? There are people today who believe that the moon landing in 1969 was staged by Hollywood.