"I think that's a 'when', not an 'if', as that happens with almost everything."
-Hemos 11/02/01
-------
We have been warned. Quickly, stockpile all anti-MS material. Backup as many previous Slashdot discussions as you can. Buy a gun^H^H^H stun gun. Move to Montana^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a non-MS territory. Quickly friends, time is running out!
Go read the linux-kernel mailing list archives; at least once every couple of months, someone tries to give Linus a 300K patch, and he rejects it. Linus wants *small* patches, which do specific things, or implement one new feature.
Essentially, the only reason NON-platform-specific stuff gets through faster is because it all goes to Alan Cox, who then stuffs them into his own tree (the -ac* patches). When he decides they're stable enough to pass on, he breaks them up into bite-sized pieces for Linus.
Games are a big weak spot for Linux, so naturally it seems that making Linux an attractive game platform is an important long term goal for the community. Sure, some people don't like games, but no one can argue that games haven't partially driven CPU technology in the past and have almost totally driven low-end 3d technology.
So how do we push Linux (and unix in general) as a usefull game platform? Obviously we need to present game programmers with a programming interface that they can use to port games to (or ideally write original games for). Like GTK+ is for GUI applications (or Qt, depending on your religion), we need the "GTK+" of the game world. Some kind of library that:
1. Is portable
2. Is extendable
3. Can make use of hardware acceleration
4. Can grow with future graphics/sound technology
5. Is based on _some_ kind of industry standard
Number five is VERY important. A standard has to be agreed upon or developers are just going to shrug Linux off as a bunch of non-standard API's each evangalized by their own creator but no one else.
What we have been seeing lately, is too many chefs spoiling the soup. Everyone and his uncle has their own API they are trying to push, and no one is working together to agree on a standard.
You aren't going to like this but I'll say it anyway. The reason Windows has caught on as a game playform is because of DirectDraw and DirectSound (and to a lesser extent hardware-accellerated OpenGL). Simply, developers don't have to worry about writing their own routines to allocate video memory, access the sound card's dma buffers, etc. etc., because Microsoft for once provided a pretty decent standard API to write to, that everyone could pretty much agree on.
Everytime someone announces his own "KICKASS GAME API" we (the Linux/unix community) actually suffer a set-back. We slip farther from the goal of having a single, open, standard API for mainstream developers to rely on.
Fortunately we have things like Mesa, which seems to "Get It". I'm not going to advertise Mesa more than I have to, suffice to say it meets all of the five criteria I mentioned above. Personally I believe time spent on writing APIs that essentially do what Mesa already does is time wasted. LOOK INTO MESA before you decide to write "Yet Another Graphics API".
On the other hand, we have sound support on Linux. Currently it's a mess. Basically application writers need to directly access the sound driver in order to get any kind of noise working. We currently have no standard _OPEN_ API to work with, and for the most part sound capabilities under linux are limited to a single process using a sound card. This will not fly with game developers.
Like the graphics world, we need an sound API that:
1. Is portable
2. Is extendable
3. Is hardware-independant
4. Allows more than one process/thread access to sound hardware simultaniously (a mixer)
One thing I have seen that looks promising is eSound. Do your own research on it but it looks pretty nice, and it will get the job done if its developers continue to do "The Right Thing".
It is important for us small-time game developers to look for APIs like Mesa and eSound, which are implemented properly and have potential to become some kind of standard, rather than latching on to one that has cool screenshots but only had a single game written to them--or worse, just writing our own game API.
Sometimes the w3 comes out with something useful, clear and powerful. SVG [w3.org] and the original version of XML are examples of this. But they quickly forget their design goals and everything goes to hell. Example: XML is supposed to be a human readable, HTML like markup language for arbitrary data that is easy for a program to parse and understand. Then the committee does its thing and now with name spaces and the other additions, XML is about as readable as a binary file. W3's problem is that they are victims of feature creep. They take something simple and elegant and turn it into a monster. Features are good but they don't seem to know how to stop.
> Why on Earth would I want to run Linux on my PS2?
Just off the top of my head, I would say there is a lot you can do. eg, many open source linux games can now be ported to the PS much more easily since all the neccesary linux libs etc will be available.
Also off the top of my head: With just linux, a framebuffer driver for the PS, an opendivx codec and a bit of work, it shouldn't be too hard to get a bootable linux based cd whose sole purpose is to play back the divx thats also recorded to the cd. In other words, an alternative to DVD that plays on any PS and is easily copied and distributed. This would be ideal for people wanting to send copies of their summer party video to their friends, none of whom own a pc, but all who have playstations.
When someone says that linux runs on the PS, don't automatically think that they are talking about a complete GNU/Linux system together with all the usual shells and servers etc. That will probably not be the case. I expect a bootable linux CD could be set up to go straight into a game from init. The user may not even know they were running linux at all.
This could be the start of lots of free-software games releases ported to the PS.
It appears this gentleman has a fetish for Nerf darts and has somehow tapped them as an energy source... Perhaps he got pointers from the Spud server?
Re:Sensible Discussion, please
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: 0
Damn. Never expected to see karma go that far down. That'll be easily fixed by creating a new UID, however.
My original post, #4, was never intended to insult or degrade mentally handicapped people. In real life, and far away from the anonymity offered on Internet forums, I am a concerned and compassionate individual. I have no qualms about working, helping, or serving disabled people.
Ciao.
Re:Troll-moderators, your attention please!
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: -1, Flamebait
Damn, do tell me how I'm trolling. Come on, let's hear it.
Re:Sensible Discussion, please
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: -1, Flamebait
I'd love to hear an idiot's opinion on what's wrong with me. Tell me.
Re:Sensible Discussion, please
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: -1, Flamebait
No, you won't. I'm 6'1" and 185 pounds. I play football. I know Tae Kwon Do. Mmmmkay?
Re:Sensible Discussion, please
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: -1, Flamebait
Heh. Go away troll. Far away. If I wanted your fucking opinion, I'd ask for it.
Sensible Discussion, please
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: -1, Troll
Guys, let's try and keep this discussion civil and sensible. Difficult, I know, especially on Slashdot, but I think that everyone would benefit if we all remain calm. Faction wars/arguments are utterly pointless.
Arguing about Mac/PC issues is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
Slashdot Mirror
"I think that's a 'when', not an 'if', as that happens with almost everything."
-Hemos 11/02/01
-------
We have been warned. Quickly, stockpile all anti-MS material. Backup as many previous Slashdot discussions as you can. Buy a gun^H^H^H stun gun. Move to Montana^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a non-MS territory. Quickly friends, time is running out!
Go read the linux-kernel mailing list archives; at least once every couple of months, someone tries to give Linus a 300K patch, and he rejects it. Linus wants *small* patches, which do specific things, or implement one new feature.
Essentially, the only reason NON-platform-specific stuff gets through faster is because it all goes to Alan Cox, who then stuffs them into his own tree (the -ac* patches). When he decides they're stable enough to pass on, he breaks them up into bite-sized pieces for Linus.
Games are a big weak spot for Linux, so naturally it seems that making Linux an attractive game platform is an important long term goal for the community. Sure, some people don't like games, but no one can argue that games haven't partially driven CPU technology in the past and have almost totally driven low-end 3d technology.
So how do we push Linux (and unix in general) as a usefull game platform? Obviously we need to present game programmers with a programming interface that they can use to port games to (or ideally write original games for). Like GTK+ is for GUI applications (or Qt, depending on your religion), we need the "GTK+" of the game world. Some kind of library that:
1. Is portable
2. Is extendable
3. Can make use of hardware acceleration
4. Can grow with future graphics/sound technology
5. Is based on _some_ kind of industry standard
Number five is VERY important. A standard has to be agreed upon or developers are just going to shrug Linux off as a bunch of non-standard API's each evangalized by their own creator but no one else.
What we have been seeing lately, is too many chefs spoiling the soup. Everyone and his uncle has their own API they are trying to push, and no one is working together to agree on a standard.
You aren't going to like this but I'll say it anyway. The reason Windows has caught on as a game playform is because of DirectDraw and DirectSound (and to a lesser extent hardware-accellerated OpenGL). Simply, developers don't have to worry about writing their own routines to allocate video memory, access the sound card's dma buffers, etc. etc., because Microsoft for once provided a pretty decent standard API to write to, that everyone could pretty much agree on.
Everytime someone announces his own "KICKASS GAME API" we (the Linux/unix community) actually suffer a set-back. We slip farther from the goal of having a single, open, standard API for mainstream developers to rely on.
Fortunately we have things like Mesa, which seems to "Get It". I'm not going to advertise Mesa more than I have to, suffice to say it meets all of the five criteria I mentioned above. Personally I believe time spent on writing APIs that essentially do what Mesa already does is time wasted. LOOK INTO MESA before you decide to write "Yet Another Graphics API".
On the other hand, we have sound support on Linux. Currently it's a mess. Basically application writers need to directly access the sound driver in order to get any kind of noise working. We currently have no standard _OPEN_ API to work with, and for the most part sound capabilities under linux are limited to a single process using a sound card. This will not fly with game developers.
Like the graphics world, we need an sound API that:
1. Is portable
2. Is extendable
3. Is hardware-independant
4. Allows more than one process/thread access to sound hardware simultaniously (a mixer)
One thing I have seen that looks promising is eSound. Do your own research on it but it looks pretty nice, and it will get the job done if its developers continue to do "The Right Thing".
It is important for us small-time game developers to look for APIs like Mesa and eSound, which are implemented properly and have potential to become some kind of standard, rather than latching on to one that has cool screenshots but only had a single game written to them--or worse, just writing our own game API.
Sometimes the w3 comes out with something useful, clear and powerful. SVG [w3.org] and the original version of XML are examples of this. But they quickly forget their design goals and everything goes to hell. Example: XML is supposed to be a human readable, HTML like markup language for arbitrary data that is easy for a program to parse and understand. Then the committee does its thing and now with name spaces and the other additions, XML is about as readable as a binary file. W3's problem is that they are victims of feature creep. They take something simple and elegant and turn it into a monster. Features are good but they don't seem to know how to stop.
How the PS2 works - this is an awesome source... very informative, yet easy-to-read.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/ps2.htm
> Why on Earth would I want to run Linux on my PS2?
Just off the top of my head, I would say there is a lot you can do. eg, many open source linux games can now be ported to the PS much more easily since all the neccesary linux libs etc will be available.
Also off the top of my head: With just linux, a framebuffer driver for the PS, an opendivx codec and a bit of work, it shouldn't be too hard to get a bootable linux based cd whose sole purpose is to play back the divx thats also recorded to the cd. In other words, an alternative to DVD that plays on any PS and is easily copied and distributed. This would be ideal for people wanting to send copies of their summer party video to their friends, none of whom own a pc, but all who have playstations.
When someone says that linux runs on the PS, don't automatically think that they are talking about a complete GNU/Linux system together with all the usual shells and servers etc. That will probably not be the case. I expect a bootable linux CD could be set up to go straight into a game from init. The user may not even know they were running linux at all.
This could be the start of lots of free-software games releases ported to the PS.
It appears this gentleman has a fetish for Nerf darts and has somehow tapped them as an energy source... Perhaps he got pointers from the Spud server?
Damn. Never expected to see karma go that far down. That'll be easily fixed by creating a new UID, however.
My original post, #4, was never intended to insult or degrade mentally handicapped people. In real life, and far away from the anonymity offered on Internet forums, I am a concerned and compassionate individual. I have no qualms about working, helping, or serving disabled people.
Ciao.
Damn, do tell me how I'm trolling. Come on, let's hear it.
I'd love to hear an idiot's opinion on what's wrong with me. Tell me.
No, you won't. I'm 6'1" and 185 pounds. I play football. I know Tae Kwon Do. Mmmmkay?
Heh. Go away troll. Far away. If I wanted your fucking opinion, I'd ask for it.
Guys, let's try and keep this discussion civil and sensible. Difficult, I know, especially on Slashdot, but I think that everyone would benefit if we all remain calm. Faction wars/arguments are utterly pointless.
Arguing about Mac/PC issues is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.