As I pointed out to another slacktroll, suse is also going downhill fast. The quality is just no longer there. The only difference is that Microsoft gave them another $100 million to take them to 2016 - otherwise, they'd be in the same situation as slackware.
Can SUSE recover? I don't know - $100 million takes the pressure off of fixing the underlying problems, making them complacent, and not lean and hungry.
Consolidation in the linux distro world needs to happen, and for that to happen, the least viable distros need to die. Mandriva and Slackware are part of that process.
Microsoft Corp. and SUSE, an independent business unit of The Attachmate Group Inc., today announced a four-year extension of the groundbreaking agreement struck nearly five years ago between Microsoft and Novell Inc. for broad collaboration on Windows and Linux interoperability and support. This relationship will extend through Jan. 1, 2016, with Microsoft committed to invest $100 million in new SUSE Linux Enterprise certificates for customers receiving Linux support from SUSE.
While they tried to spin it as being from "strong customer response", the fact is that those certificate renewals were not happening, even with 75% discounts. So it was worth it to Microsoft to throw in another $100 million over the next 4 years, because Microsoft is the lead company in CPTN Holdings, the group selling the Novell patents. This deal helps compensate Attachmate (otherwise, there'd be yet another nasty court battle wrt Novell).
# 1. I made a direct comparison to Mandriva, another distro that is in financial straits, not a "we have 28,0000 packages on 9 dvds" like debian. Mandriva issues security updates almost daily. Slackware? Months can go by.
The comparison with Mandriva is apt, because both Slackware and Mandriva are dvds, so they're more or less within the ballpark in terms of being comparable. In other words, I made an apples-to-apples comparison, not the apples-to-oranges you tried to make it out to be when you just threw Debian into the mix (BTW, I *never* mentioned Debian).
So, your claim that "Updates to stable happen only if there is a security problem with a packages (sic)." is simply bogus, since even that doesn't happen in a timely fashion.
# 2. Slackware (the site) being dead was barely noticed because nobody is using it. Same with the non-existent package browser. Nobody is using it.
Sure, slackware still has numbers on distrowatch - but those are people who look, not people who download and install. People who did like I did - downloaded the dvd then realized that slack has turned into a zombie distro - aren't users.
You keep on saying that slackware is stable. Dead is also a stable state, so in that sense you may be right.
# 3. Again, wrt "Updates to stable happen only if there is a security problem with a packages (sic)." Funny how you try to claim that slackware is stable, and only needs to keep up with security updates between releases, when not only does it NOT keep up with security updates, but among the few updates, the biggest was updating Moz/FF, not for any particular security bug, but because of their release schedule.
# 4. Who is going to recommend a distro that can't even keep their web site up for days, never mind weeks at a time? When you're of the net, you're dead to the world. To allow this situation to go on for so long is a sign of incompetence, same as having a package browser that for a year now says "in a few days."
How you can turn around and say "So what you see isn't bad at all and largely expected"? It's a disaster. The only thing that mitigated it to some extent is that nobody notices slackware any more except to ask the question "Is slackware dead (again)?"
Both RedHat and FreeBSD release security patches in a timely manner. Mandriva, even in its current situation, rarely goes more than a few days w/o updates and patches.
Slackware, on the other hand, has really been slacking - for a year now.
I was really dismayed when I went to switch back to it and found out just how badly it's deteriorated. I figured slackware would be around forever, but even if they do "revive" it, it's always going to be more like a zombie now than a viable distro; the damage has been done, and the competition has moved on.
People have been noticing the lack of security and bug fixes for a while.
More directly towards your question, this thread raised what some people called a sh*tstorm when Caitlyn Martin wrote about rebasing off another distro because a slackware.com contributor wrote about the problems being due to an old server and finances.
Realistically, who wouldn't be worried after a year of semi-somnolence, long outages (in a distro that people use as a server because of its' bsd-like reputation... oh the irony), and a reply like that?
Ultimately, the original question - the lack of any activity for months at a time - hasn't been properly addressed. It's worse than the Mandriva situation - Mandriva continues to have timely bug fixes and security updates - on an almost daily basis - and their web site is always pretty responsive.
If there were only a few linux distros out there, maybe slack could make a come-back - but there are ~1,000 distros, many with much larger user bases, much more activity, that are far better supported. Unfortunately, in view of that, it's irresponsible to recommend slackware to anyone looking for a Linux distro, either for their own use, business, or as a base to build a spin-off, unless they're ready to assume the burden of maintaining and improving it going forward.
You'd be surprised how many people stop using facebook once they get an ipad - simply because they have something else to waste their free time on. FBs biggest competition is AAPL.
What's more significant is that Zynga crashed - down 17% and trading halted for almost an hour. If FB were so great, why did their BFF take a nasty shot to the head?
According to your own link, there were NO updates between December 14th and February 1st, ONE update in December, Moz and 5 other updates in November, Moz in October, Moz again in September (plus an update to httpd), 10 (including Moz again) updated in August, 6 (including Moz yet again) in July, half a dozen (including Moz, duh!) in June. That's pretty slack behaviour.
Take out the Moz/Seamonkey stuff and you've got almost NOTHING going on between June of last year and today. Even with the Moz stuff, you've STILL got almost nothing.
No wonder the mirrors I looked at were almost empty - you're still stuck on LibreOffice 3.5.3 despite 3.5.4 being out since June 3rd of last year, and 3.5.5 since February.
That's absolute crap, same as your argument. Slackware is dead. Trying to convert it into being an almost-dead zombie isn't going to work. A year of neglect, being mostly off the net, and not having timely updates has killed it. Go collect your red shirt award.
considering you can get a linux VPS anywhere from $5 USD to $20 USD a month, especially since the ISOs are torrent only, your ramblings are ignorant and telltale of the system in front of you.
and
I'm more than a little surprised that slackware.com was running on a 10-year old server in colocation... if the hardware really was that old and underpowered, somebody needs to get fired. I wouldn't keep hardware in colo more than 5 years, and even that is pushing it, simply due to the upgrade cycle and lifecycle of the hardware. I've had a hardware blow up (craters on one of the IC's) on systems that were less than that, and it wasn't pretty.
and
Instead of paying to colo two really, really shitty 'servers', why don't you just get a small linode vps? Worry about the distro instead of wasting time fighting with a $3 eth card.
and
move a page or two to appspot for goodness sake. geez..
server is dead? what a joke in this day and age.
and
Keeping a core server live for a decade is like being proud of how long you've worn the same underwear. You may think it's funny, but it tends to drive sensible people away. The crusties do tend to accumulate, and they're unlikely to survive cleaning.
They make some very valid points. Points that have yet to be answered (because there really is no excuse in this day and age). Who in their right mind is going to recommend a distro that has had a year of screw-ups?
Do you want to turn this into a Monty Python "Dead Parrot" skit?
Any distro that goes for 9 months with only a couple dozen updates is dead.
Any distro that is "off the net" for months is dead.
Any distro with a link on its main page to their official package browser that doesn't exist, and hasn't existed for a year, is dead.
It's not just "pining for a new server." It's not "resting". It's not "a fine example of the breed." It's dead. Who in their right mind is going to recommend slackware after a year of screw-ups?
To you, this (very late in the game) burst of activity may make it still seem alive, but to users it has the stale musty smell of the crypt.
Plus, if it's happened repeatedly, chances are it's going to happen again. Months with no security updates. Just the thing to inspire confidence.
A few days, a few weeks, sure, cut slackware some slack. But this situation has been going on way too long. One of the posters defending this posted this link. Many of the readers didn't buy it - letting such a situation go on for almost a year reeks of indifference or incompetence - or a dead distro.
Perhaps the time, talent, and energy now being used to bring it back from the dead would be better spent on a more viable distro?
I checked a whole slew of mirrors 2 months ago, the most that anyone had was 3 dozen updated packages - the majority had a couple dozen or less. Slacker zombie or dead, whichever, but to someone looking to switch back to a long-abandoned distro, that was both a big disappointment and an absolute vote of non-confidence.
Stuff like this doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever. "A few days" has turned into a year. And remember - this is the recommended package browser linked to from the slackware.com home page.
The sudden "OMG we have to pick up the slack because people are saying (and have been saying for months) that slackware is dead" is simply too little, too late. And that's sad, because I remember slackware from the download-and-install-from-floppies days of 3x.
As far as most users are concerned, Slackware is dead. Being on and off the net (mostly off) over the last year, only a couple dozen updated packages 9 months after release (I checked - this latest flurry of activity has the odor of a last-gasp hail-mary attempt), a broken package browser for a year now... calling it dead isn't trolling.
"Oh, slackware's not dead. It's pining for a new server."
All good things come to an end, and I have fond memories of slackware, but that was the previous century.
I keep seeing everyone talking about $9 and $14 watches....what's the deal, is everyone cheap, or broke?!?
A watch is a piece of jewelry you wear every day...functional jewelry, but jewelry just the same. Guys don't generally get to wear as much 'bling' as women, so you need to make what you do wear, count.
Nowadays you can't tell a cheap watch from an expensive one at a glance. Look at how many $20-$100 "Roll-ex" Rolex knock-offs there are.
As for a watch being jewelry, I'd rather spend it on earrings, a ring, bracelet or necklace. A watch is just a watch. Something that will inevitably break.
If you're not a broke college student...the grow up a bit, and spend a little cash and get something that is NICE, and makes you look more like an adult.
A watch doesn't make you look "more like an adult" any more than an expensive cell phone or laptop or tablet does. Adults are (mostly) a bit more discerning.
I pretty much agree with everything else - the linux world is a mess, a mish-mash wasted effort on too many forks, each of which has to duplicate 99% of the work before adding their own 1% of "differentiation bling" that is supposed to "add value."
Fedora[*], Slackware, Debian, Arch, Gentoo - that's about it?
Please update your list - slackware is dead. No new release in more than a year, the "updated package browser" that was supposed to take a couple of weeks has also been missing in action for more than a year, the server has had many outages (it's currently responds to pings, but no page loads), and the few mirrors don't have much in the way of security and other updates (2 - 3 dozen packages in the last year, depending on the mirror).
I wear my $9 Wal Mart timepiece (analog) because it's not a crime if I lose it or scratch the face of it.
Almost the same here. A cheap ($14.95) watch at a small place in the local mall. When the battery dies, $5 for a new battery, installed. When it finally gives up the ghost (I tend not to take it off to wash the dishes), I'll just buy a new one.
If someone were to give me an expensive watch, I'd be worried about breaking it, or losing it, or scratching it, so I'd only wear it occasionally. So what's the point?
An architect is a person trained in the planning, design and oversight of the construction of buildings. To practice architecture means to offer or render services in connection with the design and construction of a building, or group of buildings and the space within the site surrounding the buildings, that have as their principal purpose human occupancy or use.
Throughout the project (planning to occupancy), the architect co-ordinates a design team. Structural, mechanical, and electrical engineers and other specialists, are hired by the client or the architect, who must ensure that the work is co-ordinated to construct the design.
Architects typically put projects to tender on behalf of their clients, advise on the award of the project to a general contractor, and review the progress of the work during construction. They typically review contractor shop drawings and other submittals, prepare and issue site instructions, and provide construction contract administration and Certificates for Payment to the contractor (see also Design-bid-build). In many jurisdictions, mandatory certification or assurance of the work is required.
Go on a construction site and look for the people in the white hard-hats in the mobile trailer with the blueprints, etc. You know, the one with the big sign that has the architect firms name on it.
I understand their issues, developers are expensive, and cheap ones produce shoddy code
No, you don't. You left out part. "developers are expensive, and cheap ones produce shoddy code, and the company is so incompetent (and/or bloated) in terms of management, marketing and sales that they can't produce enough perceived value to be able to pay market rates."
They're doomed.
This is a death spiral.
In the end, they'll close up, the companies that did the outsourced work will have the code but no customer, no worry about being sued, so you've financed the creation of a foreign competitor for what were your products. Way to go, Charlie Brown. The New American Way. To Eleventeen!!!!
There's another problem - as you continue to offshore, you lose the ability to bring in people at the entry level locally. So what happens when a significant portion of the local labour pool can no longer get an entry-level job?
The answer is more insidious than you'd think at first glance. Not only do the entry-level jobs disappear, but eventually so do the mid-level jobs, since you don't have anyone local who's grown into the position. Repeat often enough, and the local industry is dead as more of the work just "naturally" shifts overseas.
Again, your experience, your "putting in your time" is irrelevant.
The only reason you did so was, as you admit, that you were bored. So switching scratched your itch.
Other people want to work to make money. That's their itch. You're going to have to pay market rates, or you're simply not in the market. Why should a total stranger agree to waste time at a lower rate of pay so that your employer can reap the benefit for the next two years while you guys get your act together?
If you want to pay less, you're going to have to offer to scratch other itches to compensate. Telecommuting is one. Flex time is another. Giving them more authority to make design and implementation decisions is yet another.
If you are a developer, and your boss thinks programming is "monkey work", I'd be looking for a different job, right now.
I know that's not the question you asked, but that's the answer I have.
Absolutely 100% the right answer.
Because you're next no matter how it goes.
It will go badly. And then there won't be the budget to fix the problem. Whose fault is that? Well, let's see... the First Law of Business Physics is "Sh*t always rolls downhill." Since it's just you and your boss, guess who's at the bottom of the hill?
So you will be blamed for the failure.
Some problems are intractable - they cannot be solved under the given conditions and constraints. This is one of them. It's way past time to leave. Try to contact everyone else who's left, tell them you're ready to jump ship and would appreciate any assistance they can give.
If the boss complains when you tell him that it can't be done, tell him you want a big raise. What's he going to do - fire you? Then he's out of a job as well. He's already looking around for another opportunity anyway... the minute he finds one, you're dead in the water.
Non-paid internships that do work that would normally be done by a paid employee, or that the employer derives a benefit from, are illegal under the U.S. Fair Labor Standards Act See in particular item #4.
Slashdot Mirror
As I pointed out to another slacktroll, suse is also going downhill fast. The quality is just no longer there. The only difference is that Microsoft gave them another $100 million to take them to 2016 - otherwise, they'd be in the same situation as slackware.
Can SUSE recover? I don't know - $100 million takes the pressure off of fixing the underlying problems, making them complacent, and not lean and hungry.
Consolidation in the linux distro world needs to happen, and for that to happen, the least viable distros need to die. Mandriva and Slackware are part of that process.
You're missing a LOT of the main points here.
# 1. I made a direct comparison to Mandriva, another distro that is in financial straits, not a "we have 28,0000 packages on 9 dvds" like debian. Mandriva issues security updates almost daily. Slackware? Months can go by.
The comparison with Mandriva is apt, because both Slackware and Mandriva are dvds, so they're more or less within the ballpark in terms of being comparable. In other words, I made an apples-to-apples comparison, not the apples-to-oranges you tried to make it out to be when you just threw Debian into the mix (BTW, I *never* mentioned Debian).
So, your claim that "Updates to stable happen only if there is a security problem with a packages (sic)." is simply bogus, since even that doesn't happen in a timely fashion.
# 2. Slackware (the site) being dead was barely noticed because nobody is using it. Same with the non-existent package browser. Nobody is using it.
Sure, slackware still has numbers on distrowatch - but those are people who look, not people who download and install. People who did like I did - downloaded the dvd then realized that slack has turned into a zombie distro - aren't users.
You keep on saying that slackware is stable. Dead is also a stable state, so in that sense you may be right.
# 3. Again, wrt "Updates to stable happen only if there is a security problem with a packages (sic)." Funny how you try to claim that slackware is stable, and only needs to keep up with security updates between releases, when not only does it NOT keep up with security updates, but among the few updates, the biggest was updating Moz/FF, not for any particular security bug, but because of their release schedule.
# 4. Who is going to recommend a distro that can't even keep their web site up for days, never mind weeks at a time? When you're of the net, you're dead to the world. To allow this situation to go on for so long is a sign of incompetence, same as having a package browser that for a year now says "in a few days."
How you can turn around and say "So what you see isn't bad at all and largely expected"? It's a disaster. The only thing that mitigated it to some extent is that nobody notices slackware any more except to ask the question "Is slackware dead (again)?"
Slackware, on the other hand, has really been slacking - for a year now.
I was really dismayed when I went to switch back to it and found out just how badly it's deteriorated. I figured slackware would be around forever, but even if they do "revive" it, it's always going to be more like a zombie now than a viable distro; the damage has been done, and the competition has moved on.
You're not the only one asking that question.
People have been noticing the lack of security and bug fixes for a while.
More directly towards your question, this thread raised what some people called a sh*tstorm when Caitlyn Martin wrote about rebasing off another distro because a slackware.com contributor wrote about the problems being due to an old server and finances.
Realistically, who wouldn't be worried after a year of semi-somnolence, long outages (in a distro that people use as a server because of its' bsd-like reputation... oh the irony), and a reply like that?
Ultimately, the original question - the lack of any activity for months at a time - hasn't been properly addressed. It's worse than the Mandriva situation - Mandriva continues to have timely bug fixes and security updates - on an almost daily basis - and their web site is always pretty responsive.
If there were only a few linux distros out there, maybe slack could make a come-back - but there are ~1,000 distros, many with much larger user bases, much more activity, that are far better supported. Unfortunately, in view of that, it's irresponsible to recommend slackware to anyone looking for a Linux distro, either for their own use, business, or as a base to build a spin-off, unless they're ready to assume the burden of maintaining and improving it going forward.
You'd be surprised how many people stop using facebook once they get an ipad - simply because they have something else to waste their free time on. FBs biggest competition is AAPL.
What's more significant is that Zynga crashed - down 17% and trading halted for almost an hour. If FB were so great, why did their BFF take a nasty shot to the head?
According to your own link, there were NO updates between December 14th and February 1st, ONE update in December, Moz and 5 other updates in November, Moz in October, Moz again in September (plus an update to httpd), 10 (including Moz again) updated in August, 6 (including Moz yet again) in July, half a dozen (including Moz, duh!) in June. That's pretty slack behaviour.
Take out the Moz/Seamonkey stuff and you've got almost NOTHING going on between June of last year and today. Even with the Moz stuff, you've STILL got almost nothing.
No wonder the mirrors I looked at were almost empty - you're still stuck on LibreOffice 3.5.3 despite 3.5.4 being out since June 3rd of last year, and 3.5.5 since February.
That's absolute crap, same as your argument. Slackware is dead. Trying to convert it into being an almost-dead zombie isn't going to work. A year of neglect, being mostly off the net, and not having timely updates has killed it. Go collect your red shirt award.
and
and
and
and
They make some very valid points. Points that have yet to be answered (because there really is no excuse in this day and age). Who in their right mind is going to recommend a distro that has had a year of screw-ups?
Do you want to turn this into a Monty Python "Dead Parrot" skit?
Any distro that goes for 9 months with only a couple dozen updates is dead.
Any distro that is "off the net" for months is dead.
Any distro with a link on its main page to their official package browser that doesn't exist, and hasn't existed for a year, is dead.
It's not just "pining for a new server." It's not "resting". It's not "a fine example of the breed." It's dead. Who in their right mind is going to recommend slackware after a year of screw-ups?
To you, this (very late in the game) burst of activity may make it still seem alive, but to users it has the stale musty smell of the crypt.
Plus, if it's happened repeatedly, chances are it's going to happen again. Months with no security updates. Just the thing to inspire confidence.
A few days, a few weeks, sure, cut slackware some slack. But this situation has been going on way too long. One of the posters defending this posted this link. Many of the readers didn't buy it - letting such a situation go on for almost a year reeks of indifference or incompetence - or a dead distro.
Perhaps the time, talent, and energy now being used to bring it back from the dead would be better spent on a more viable distro?
I checked a whole slew of mirrors 2 months ago, the most that anyone had was 3 dozen updated packages - the majority had a couple dozen or less. Slacker zombie or dead, whichever, but to someone looking to switch back to a long-abandoned distro, that was both a big disappointment and an absolute vote of non-confidence.
Stuff like this doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever. "A few days" has turned into a year. And remember - this is the recommended package browser linked to from the slackware.com home page.
The sudden "OMG we have to pick up the slack because people are saying (and have been saying for months) that slackware is dead" is simply too little, too late. And that's sad, because I remember slackware from the download-and-install-from-floppies days of 3x.
Abandoning the old package browser, because the new one will be ready in a few weeks ... that was last year too.
What point is there installing a distro that had no security updates for ages? That's just too slack for most people.
"Oh, slackware's not dead. It's pining for a new server."
All good things come to an end, and I have fond memories of slackware, but that was the previous century.
Nowadays you can't tell a cheap watch from an expensive one at a glance. Look at how many $20-$100 "Roll-ex" Rolex knock-offs there are.
As for a watch being jewelry, I'd rather spend it on earrings, a ring, bracelet or necklace. A watch is just a watch. Something that will inevitably break.
A watch doesn't make you look "more like an adult" any more than an expensive cell phone or laptop or tablet does. Adults are (mostly) a bit more discerning.
No, they posted a billion in annual revenue.
I pretty much agree with everything else - the linux world is a mess, a mish-mash wasted effort on too many forks, each of which has to duplicate 99% of the work before adding their own 1% of "differentiation bling" that is supposed to "add value."
Please update your list - slackware is dead. No new release in more than a year, the "updated package browser" that was supposed to take a couple of weeks has also been missing in action for more than a year, the server has had many outages (it's currently responds to pings, but no page loads), and the few mirrors don't have much in the way of security and other updates (2 - 3 dozen packages in the last year, depending on the mirror).
Almost the same here. A cheap ($14.95) watch at a small place in the local mall. When the battery dies, $5 for a new battery, installed. When it finally gives up the ghost (I tend not to take it off to wash the dishes), I'll just buy a new one.
If someone were to give me an expensive watch, I'd be worried about breaking it, or losing it, or scratching it, so I'd only wear it occasionally. So what's the point?
Really?
Go on a construction site and look for the people in the white hard-hats in the mobile trailer with the blueprints, etc. You know, the one with the big sign that has the architect firms name on it.
No, you don't. You left out part. "developers are expensive, and cheap ones produce shoddy code, and the company is so incompetent (and/or bloated) in terms of management, marketing and sales that they can't produce enough perceived value to be able to pay market rates."
They're doomed.
This is a death spiral.
In the end, they'll close up, the companies that did the outsourced work will have the code but no customer, no worry about being sued, so you've financed the creation of a foreign competitor for what were your products. Way to go, Charlie Brown. The New American Way. To Eleventeen!!!!
Good luck litigating in a foreign jurisdiction ... esp. India, where bribes are the norm.
There's another problem - as you continue to offshore, you lose the ability to bring in people at the entry level locally. So what happens when a significant portion of the local labour pool can no longer get an entry-level job?
The answer is more insidious than you'd think at first glance. Not only do the entry-level jobs disappear, but eventually so do the mid-level jobs, since you don't have anyone local who's grown into the position. Repeat often enough, and the local industry is dead as more of the work just "naturally" shifts overseas.
It's the same thing that happened with electronics manufacturing - everyone's in China now because everyone else is in China. No wonder software development is a dead-end career.
Again, your experience, your "putting in your time" is irrelevant.
The only reason you did so was, as you admit, that you were bored. So switching scratched your itch.
Other people want to work to make money. That's their itch. You're going to have to pay market rates, or you're simply not in the market. Why should a total stranger agree to waste time at a lower rate of pay so that your employer can reap the benefit for the next two years while you guys get your act together?
If you want to pay less, you're going to have to offer to scratch other itches to compensate. Telecommuting is one. Flex time is another. Giving them more authority to make design and implementation decisions is yet another.
Check the old comments in the minimsft blog - the entire Microsoft India operation is a long-running joke within the company.
Absolutely 100% the right answer.
Because you're next no matter how it goes.
It will go badly. And then there won't be the budget to fix the problem. Whose fault is that? Well, let's see ... the First Law of Business Physics is "Sh*t always rolls downhill." Since it's just you and your boss, guess who's at the bottom of the hill?
So you will be blamed for the failure.
Some problems are intractable - they cannot be solved under the given conditions and constraints. This is one of them. It's way past time to leave. Try to contact everyone else who's left, tell them you're ready to jump ship and would appreciate any assistance they can give.
If the boss complains when you tell him that it can't be done, tell him you want a big raise. What's he going to do - fire you? Then he's out of a job as well. He's already looking around for another opportunity anyway ... the minute he finds one, you're dead in the water.
Non-paid internships that do work that would normally be done by a paid employee, or that the employer derives a benefit from, are illegal under the U.S. Fair Labor Standards Act See in particular item #4.