While one can be correct in saying that those that do not drive should not have to pay for the infrastructure for those that do excessively, defining that line is difficult. For instance we all require some infrastructure to deliver foods and goods, deliver emergency services, and provide evacuation routes.
If road use is taxed, ie the mileage drove is taxed, even those who do not drive will still pay. Those who sale goods, whether food or anything else, will sale at a price that reflects the cost of transportation.
Having people who use more of a resource pay more to use it? Brilliant! Maybe the tax could be built into the price of the fuel purchased by the users.
You can't have people who drive more pay more by taxing fuel. You can only have those who use the roads more pay more by taxing mileage. If a person has a 45 mpg hybrid and another has a 15 mpg SUV he or she would have to drive 3 tymes as much as the SUV driver to pay just as much as the other driver in fuel tax.
Post-war affluence encouraged parents to send their children off to College where they spent another four years bouncing around the educational system. In a few cases, such extreme education makes sense
Except in a few extreme cases, school isn't needed. All most people ever need is to know how to fish, hunt, and or grow their own food.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? It's just about as ridiculous as what you propose.
It's useless fluff that pads out the school years, especially when you consider that the truly brilliant kids (who should be the heroes of the educational system) frequently find themselves bored to tears.
Ah, dumb down education for most so the exceptional students can have a bigger ego and rule over those without education?
We live in a strange political bubble where universal medicare is viewed as dangerously "socialist" (somehow invoking fears of dictators waving red flags), whereas multi-billion dollar tax funded road networks are seen as a panacea. Bloody odd.
It's not odd at all. Roads are constitutionally authorized whereas Medicare is not. If you want Medicare then propose an amendment, that's what their there for.
Stop acting like society owes you something- civilization is paid for in tax dollars.
More like it's those who tax who are greedy.
you wouldn't be earning anything if it wasn't for the government around you protecting your interests and your rights.
You can protect people and still collect less in taxes. Look at how much these wars like the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror" are costing. The US has the highest prison population, and about half of them are there because of the fake War on Drugs. Instead of these people working and paying taxes they are locked up raising government costs. Then there are all of the governmental agencies, authorities, bureaus, offices and others that are not constitutionally authorized. Release those prisoners and get rid of all those things and tax can be cut and government would still be able to protect people.
If anything, the idea of adding tolls is really no different than a gas tax- it taxes usage, so if you have a problem with it don't use those roads as much! Take a train, ride the bus, carpool!
On that I agree. That's exactly how it should be, use user fees to pay for roads. And all other forms of transportation.
The fuel tax is not high enough to pay for the roads.
Even if taxes per gallon of fuel haven't risen significantly, it doesn't mean the tax is particularly low, $0.05/gallon is no small amount,
It is too low if it does not pay for the roads. You use the road you pay for it.
The number of cars, and amount of gasoline consumed has dramatically increased over the years, so tax revenues would naturally rise.
First, though the number of vehicles has increased the number of miles driven has decreased. And even if fuel tax revenue has increased it hasn't increased as much as building and maintaining those roads go up faster.
There would be some needs for increased maintenance of federal roads, but such costs don't necessarily increase proportionally with the number of gallons of gas consumed.
There would be some needs for increased maintenance of federal roads, but such costs don't necessarily increase proportionally with the number of gallons of gas consumed.
But the costs go up with mileage. As I've said elsewhere when someone renews their license plate tags their odometer is read to see how many miles they drive and they are taxed on that.
Toll roads haven't been used in the past, and yet states and cities have still gotten the road work they need done somehow.
Fuel taxes are not that low, and the tax revenue is enormous, so of course the tax payers are already paying for their road maintenance...
As I said above if they are not high enough to pay for the roads then they are too low. Even the free market institute Reason says "federal gas tax revenues are failing". They want to totally replace the fuel tax with a mileage charge, which I say above should be used.
That's cool if we stick with a fuel tax. Just keep in mind you'll be paying more of your share than someone with an electric vehicle or a hybrid. That's the problem with a fuel tax, when you can't control the distribution of the fuel (in this case, electricity).
I didn't say it in this thread but in another, what could be done is when someone renews their license plate tags their odometer is read.
No need for a scan arch. Have your ipass/toll collection device report your mileage for you.
So they could track where you go? A better way to get your mileage is to simply read the odometer. When someone goes down to renew their license plate tags the odometer is read and you're billed for the number of miles driven. Of course this will take longer and people won't know how much they'll owe until it's checked.
f you're concerned about wear and tear, until a significant percentage of vehicles are alternative fuel in a way that doesn't have the vast majority of people filling up in gas stations
You, er other states, could do what South Carolina does, tax biofuels.
I see NO ultimate downside, except if you live way out in the middle of nowhere you are going to have a problem, but that's only because right now people out in the middle of nowhere pay nowhere near the cost to society of them living there! Its their choice. If its too expensive to live out there, then you can move into town.
So you're willing to make rural people pay more? Are you also willing to pay more for food? For me, yes I am willing to pay more so long as I get to chose who gets the money and not some politician or bureaucrat.
This may show my lack of knowledge on key-value stores, but using your example how would I look up everyone who lives at the same address? How about return to me all the people who have more than 1 address?
Key: Name1
Values:
Address 1
Address 2
Address 3
Same thing for Name2.
That's how my black, er green, book is for phone numbers.
No method is going to be completely fair, but a flat tax is going to be the only effective method after electric vehicles come about and you can get your fuel from anywhere. It's a better option than trying to bill everyone for every mile they travel.
You may but I don't think a flat tax is a better option. Because the more you drive the more roads and road maintenance is needed taxing by the mile is better.
But if you drive a fairly small amount, you probably live in the city
I don't drive much because I'm disabled and don't work. Even when I did work though I tried to plan my driving so I didn't have to drive as much, and I love driving.
and not the suburbs or a rural area
I used to live in the suburbs and didn't drive much then either. Actually I drove more after I moved near downtown. Everyplace I went to was further away.
and could use a car share or car rental for the times you need to drive
While I like the idea of car sharing I don't know when I'll be going somewhere. Or how long I'll be gone. I love the freedom of being able to jump in my car, go wherever, and take as long as I want. I am willing to pay a little more for fuel tax to keep that freedom.
The users of the road are already paying for it in the form of very high state and federal taxes on gasoline.
Fuel taxes, which are not high, have not kept pace with inflation. You want to talk about high fuel tax, try Canada. Though it's been years since I've been there the last tyme I bought gas in Canada it cost significantly more there than in the US. And you can't blamed that on the cost of oil. The US imports more oil from Canada than from any other country. Europe has significantly higher fuel taxes than the US too. Because of low fuel taxes the US has one of the lowest fuel prices.
One way to do this, is to do the entire calculation in the car, and only transmit the accumulated cost, but this requires an in-car device that can do map matching.
This will only work if you require everyone to have an in-car device. It would be just another government mandate.
Why don't you compare machines at a price point that people actually buy?
If people don't buy the computers from Apple and Dell I listed then why do they offer them? They offer them because people do buy them. For lower priced computers try this:
iMac 20-inch with 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM
250GB Serial ATA Drive
Total = $1,274.00
XPS (Product) Red with 2.2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
Total = $1,099
While the Mac is $175 more it has a 2.4 GHz whereas the Dell is only a 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo and the RAM is 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM whereas the Dell's RAM is 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM. Both the CPU and RAM are faster on the Mac.
I've heard a Genius in Regent Street (the flagship UK store) tell someone the exact route to another store which would sell and fit RAM for about 1/5 the price Apple wanted. Of course, if you can fit it yourself as I did you can get about 1/10th the price.
My Mac came with a booklet showing how to add RAM. And a genius at one store told me to go to this one store to have my hdd replaced with a bigger one. However Apple stores won't do this unless the hdd has to be replaced because it's bad. Mine was good I just needed a bigger drive.
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You pay the toll at the gasoline pump through the ~70 cent per gallon tax.
As of 2005 the fuel tax in the US was 18.4/gal. On 28 September 2006 it was 24.5 cents per gallon. Of course states have their own fuel tax, but those range from 8 cents in Alaska to 32.1 cent per gallon in Wisconsin.
Falcon
While one can be correct in saying that those that do not drive should not have to pay for the infrastructure for those that do excessively, defining that line is difficult. For instance we all require some infrastructure to deliver foods and goods, deliver emergency services, and provide evacuation routes.
If road use is taxed, ie the mileage drove is taxed, even those who do not drive will still pay. Those who sale goods, whether food or anything else, will sale at a price that reflects the cost of transportation.
Falcon
I am not "wrong" as you put it.
As you said "they won't be able to leave the computer unattended to boot", you are wrong. I can leave my old PC to boot on it's own without a problem.
Falcon
Having people who use more of a resource pay more to use it? Brilliant! Maybe the tax could be built into the price of the fuel purchased by the users.
You can't have people who drive more pay more by taxing fuel. You can only have those who use the roads more pay more by taxing mileage. If a person has a 45 mpg hybrid and another has a 15 mpg SUV he or she would have to drive 3 tymes as much as the SUV driver to pay just as much as the other driver in fuel tax.
Falcon
Post-war affluence encouraged parents to send their children off to College where they spent another four years bouncing around the educational system. In a few cases, such extreme education makes sense
Except in a few extreme cases, school isn't needed. All most people ever need is to know how to fish, hunt, and or grow their own food.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? It's just about as ridiculous as what you propose.
It's useless fluff that pads out the school years, especially when you consider that the truly brilliant kids (who should be the heroes of the educational system) frequently find themselves bored to tears.
Ah, dumb down education for most so the exceptional students can have a bigger ego and rule over those without education?
Falcon
We live in a strange political bubble where universal medicare is viewed as dangerously "socialist" (somehow invoking fears of dictators waving red flags), whereas multi-billion dollar tax funded road networks are seen as a panacea. Bloody odd.
It's not odd at all. Roads are constitutionally authorized whereas Medicare is not. If you want Medicare then propose an amendment, that's what their there for.
Falcon
No. There is no technical need to send the location info to the government. Nor even to a private organisation.
Except you talked about using a GPS, which gives the location. I even included that in my reply.
Falcon
This isn't capitalist, it's corporate welfare.
Falcon
We are taxed on miles traveled. That's called the gasoline tax. You're taxed proportionally to the amount in which you drive.
We are not taxed on how much we drive, we are taxed on how much fuel we use A hybrid getting 40 mpg pays less than the SUV only getting 15 mpg.
Hell, submit anything under the guise of "Stimulating the economy" and its bound to be passed.
Yeap, congress took a look at the title of the bill and approved it. Not one member of congress actually read the whole bill.
Falcon
Stop acting like society owes you something- civilization is paid for in tax dollars.
More like it's those who tax who are greedy.
you wouldn't be earning anything if it wasn't for the government around you protecting your interests and your rights.
You can protect people and still collect less in taxes. Look at how much these wars like the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror" are costing. The US has the highest prison population, and about half of them are there because of the fake War on Drugs. Instead of these people working and paying taxes they are locked up raising government costs. Then there are all of the governmental agencies, authorities, bureaus, offices and others that are not constitutionally authorized. Release those prisoners and get rid of all those things and tax can be cut and government would still be able to protect people.
If anything, the idea of adding tolls is really no different than a gas tax- it taxes usage, so if you have a problem with it don't use those roads as much! Take a train, ride the bus, carpool!
On that I agree. That's exactly how it should be, use user fees to pay for roads. And all other forms of transportation.
Falcon
It should be pretty easy to pay for roads, tax mileage.
Falcon
Yes it is not reasonable to you or me, however there are many who would like nothing more to "punish" people who drive cars
It's not only environmentalists who want to raise the fuel tax, even an " Oil refiner CEO advocates for higher fuel taxes".
Falcon
The fuel tax is not high enough to pay for the roads.
Even if taxes per gallon of fuel haven't risen significantly, it doesn't mean the tax is particularly low, $0.05/gallon is no small amount,
It is too low if it does not pay for the roads. You use the road you pay for it.
The number of cars, and amount of gasoline consumed has dramatically increased over the years, so tax revenues would naturally rise.
First, though the number of vehicles has increased the number of miles driven has decreased. And even if fuel tax revenue has increased it hasn't increased as much as building and maintaining those roads go up faster.
There would be some needs for increased maintenance of federal roads, but such costs don't necessarily increase proportionally with the number of gallons of gas consumed.
There would be some needs for increased maintenance of federal roads, but such costs don't necessarily increase proportionally with the number of gallons of gas consumed.
But the costs go up with mileage. As I've said elsewhere when someone renews their license plate tags their odometer is read to see how many miles they drive and they are taxed on that.
Toll roads haven't been used in the past, and yet states and cities have still gotten the road work they need done somehow.
Toll roads have most certainly been used. I was on toll roads back in the 1970s. Here's an article from the "New York Times" dated 25 Aug 1918: " ABANDON OLD TOLL ROADS.; Lancaster Turnpike Purchase Frees Pennsylvania of Last Section."
Fuel taxes are not that low, and the tax revenue is enormous, so of course the tax payers are already paying for their road maintenance...
As I said above if they are not high enough to pay for the roads then they are too low. Even the free market institute Reason says "federal gas tax revenues are failing". They want to totally replace the fuel tax with a mileage charge, which I say above should be used.
Falcon
That's cool if we stick with a fuel tax. Just keep in mind you'll be paying more of your share than someone with an electric vehicle or a hybrid. That's the problem with a fuel tax, when you can't control the distribution of the fuel (in this case, electricity).
I didn't say it in this thread but in another, what could be done is when someone renews their license plate tags their odometer is read.
Falcon
Technically it's even quite easy to do: you need GPS, GSM
Yea, the authorities have to be able to track citizens and know when they go somewhere.
Falcon
No need for a scan arch. Have your ipass/toll collection device report your mileage for you.
So they could track where you go? A better way to get your mileage is to simply read the odometer. When someone goes down to renew their license plate tags the odometer is read and you're billed for the number of miles driven. Of course this will take longer and people won't know how much they'll owe until it's checked.
Falcon
f you're concerned about wear and tear, until a significant percentage of vehicles are alternative fuel in a way that doesn't have the vast majority of people filling up in gas stations
You, er other states, could do what South Carolina does, tax biofuels.
Falcon
I see NO ultimate downside, except if you live way out in the middle of nowhere you are going to have a problem, but that's only because right now people out in the middle of nowhere pay nowhere near the cost to society of them living there! Its their choice. If its too expensive to live out there, then you can move into town.
So you're willing to make rural people pay more? Are you also willing to pay more for food? For me, yes I am willing to pay more so long as I get to chose who gets the money and not some politician or bureaucrat.
Falcon
This may show my lack of knowledge on key-value stores, but using your example how would I look up everyone who lives at the same address? How about return to me all the people who have more than 1 address?
Key: Name1
Values:
Address 1
Address 2
Address 3
Same thing for Name2.
That's how my black, er green, book is for phone numbers.
The fuel tax doesn't nearly cover the cost. We need new revenue in the system.
What we need is to raise the fuel tax. They haven't even kept up with inflation.
Falcon
No method is going to be completely fair, but a flat tax is going to be the only effective method after electric vehicles come about and you can get your fuel from anywhere. It's a better option than trying to bill everyone for every mile they travel.
You may but I don't think a flat tax is a better option. Because the more you drive the more roads and road maintenance is needed taxing by the mile is better.
But if you drive a fairly small amount, you probably live in the city
I don't drive much because I'm disabled and don't work. Even when I did work though I tried to plan my driving so I didn't have to drive as much, and I love driving.
and not the suburbs or a rural area
I used to live in the suburbs and didn't drive much then either. Actually I drove more after I moved near downtown. Everyplace I went to was further away.
and could use a car share or car rental for the times you need to drive
While I like the idea of car sharing I don't know when I'll be going somewhere. Or how long I'll be gone. I love the freedom of being able to jump in my car, go wherever, and take as long as I want. I am willing to pay a little more for fuel tax to keep that freedom.
Falcon
The users of the road are already paying for it in the form of very high state and federal taxes on gasoline.
Fuel taxes, which are not high, have not kept pace with inflation. You want to talk about high fuel tax, try Canada. Though it's been years since I've been there the last tyme I bought gas in Canada it cost significantly more there than in the US. And you can't blamed that on the cost of oil. The US imports more oil from Canada than from any other country. Europe has significantly higher fuel taxes than the US too. Because of low fuel taxes the US has one of the lowest fuel prices.
Falcon
One way to do this, is to do the entire calculation in the car, and only transmit the accumulated cost, but this requires an in-car device that can do map matching.
This will only work if you require everyone to have an in-car device. It would be just another government mandate.
Falcon
Why don't you compare machines at a price point that people actually buy?
If people don't buy the computers from Apple and Dell I listed then why do they offer them? They offer them because people do buy them. For lower priced computers try this:
iMac 20-inch with 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM
250GB Serial ATA Drive
Total = $1,274.00
XPS (Product) Red with 2.2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
Total = $1,099
While the Mac is $175 more it has a 2.4 GHz whereas the Dell is only a 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo and the RAM is 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM whereas the Dell's RAM is 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM. Both the CPU and RAM are faster on the Mac.
Falcon
I've heard a Genius in Regent Street (the flagship UK store) tell someone the exact route to another store which would sell and fit RAM for about 1/5 the price Apple wanted. Of course, if you can fit it yourself as I did you can get about 1/10th the price.
My Mac came with a booklet showing how to add RAM. And a genius at one store told me to go to this one store to have my hdd replaced with a bigger one. However Apple stores won't do this unless the hdd has to be replaced because it's bad. Mine was good I just needed a bigger drive.
Falcon