Do you really mean Apple doesn't offer you a Mac configured the way you want it? If you do a side by side comparison of a Macbook or Macbook Pro and comparable Windows laptop, or a Mac Pro and comparable tower PC from a Windows OEM you'll see the price of the Apple offering is in line with the Windows PC offerings. Now what many people who say Macs are too expensive is that Apple doesn't offer a midrange desktop or tower.
their big sellers are still separate tower types, specifically mid-low range ones.
That's one area Apple isn't in. As someone said dealing with TFA, most people who say Macs are too expensive what they really mean is that Apple doesn't offer a computer configures the way they want it.
mean look at the server market, these days it's all rackmount hardware, mostly 1U.
Apple offers 1U servers, the Xserve. Unfortunately I didn't find data on what it's market share is otherwise I'd post it and the link.
"constantly having to reinstall windows...." you're doing it wrong.
The first few tymes I reinstalled Windows I was told to by tech support. I ordered and bought a PC from Gateway, and never will again. In the first year I had it I called tech support maybe half a dozen tymes and 2 or 3 of the calls the tech told me to reinstall Windows after walking me through some tests. After a couple of years going through this when I started getting a lot of system errs and crashes, believing the tech would tell me to reinstall I'd do it on my own.
my wife has a vista pc (ugh) and an XP-SP2 machine... we use her XP machine *just* to watch DVDs, and TV and DVR some TV programs.... it's uptime.... UPTIME mind you.... is over 30 days
I don't have a PC with XP but the first tyme I used one, it was at the college I attended. On the first day of a semester I walked into a classroom with all new Dells on the desks. I sat down and powered up the PC where I sat. Five minutes later it still hadn't booted up, the screen was frozen with boot info showing. I had to push in and hold the power button until it shutdown. On the other hand I had my NT4 PC running for more than 30 days at a tyme. Not once did I get an err from Windows. Unfortunately it's a DEC Alpha PC and I wasn't able to get much software installed. What was weird is that the only commercial software I was able to install was Borland C++ however I was able to install some free/shareware.
and the iBook G4 (because its small 12" form factor is perfect for carrying to on location photo shoots...)
Are you a pro photographer, or do you work as a photographer? I'm on disability now but I'm hoping to start working as a photographer. Which is why I wanted a large display with my laptop. I'm also looking for a good external display at least 24", I'd prefer an LCD but haven't been able to find one that a few photographers will recommend. As for portability, the weight doesn't bother me. What bothers me some is banging the laptop however the backpack I carry it in has plenty in it for cushioning.
You said nothing about high end hardware not counting.
This whole thread is about Psystar and what Macs are comparable to it. That's all. Mac Pros aren't even on the table, that's the whole point of my original message.
You've changed the rules then yourself. In the post I replied to you brought in laptops, and Psystar hasn't come out with a laptop. Now when I point out the high end you say it's not applicable.
However I just thought of something I hadn't thought of before, nor has anyone else brought it up. Psystar isn't the first, or only, company that builds Macs besides Apple. Axiotron makes the Modbook, a tablet Mac. However it's an aftermarket modification of the Macbook. Now that I've thought of it I think it would be a good idea if Apple bought Axiotron. I'd love to have a table Mac but wouldn't like to see another company, Axiotron, put out of business. That way I could still take it down to the Genius Bar in an Apple store and still get support for it.
The entry level Mac Pro is $2800 with no monitor. Now that's no surprising as it features things like dual quad core Xeons.
You can get a Mac Pro with only 1 quad core Xeon. That cuts the price by $500.
if you buy the all in ones, you have to get a monitor every time you want a computer upgrade.
That's the problem I have with all-in-ones, they're simply a waste of resources. Though I don't like it either, the Mac Mini is better in this regard.
they don't offer many choices, and one of the choices they exclude is one of the most popular choices: consumer desktop/tower and separate monitor.
Yea, that's the problem I have with Apple's lineup. I've heard Apple doesn't think it's worth it to spend the money on a midrange computer but I disagree.
apple engineers and coders are too dumb to figure out how to get "their" (stolen from debian) software
Name one program Apple stole from Debian, where's your citation?
they make the hardware and they write the software to work with that set of hardware specifically
That's right, they write the software, they don't steal it unlike Microsoft.
and points to the non-mac x86 market machines' biggest advantage as it's biggest flaw
And what advantage is that? Other than that Windows run most PCs. Is it that unless you're a super user or sys admin it crashes frequently?
and brainless mindless sheep will still flock to apple because they make a laptop that uses a magnet to stay closed rather than a latch
Just as mindless sheep buy Windows because it's the dominate OS. After 10 years of having PC hardware having to be replaced and constantly having to reinstall Windows because it kept crashing I decided maybe it's tyme to switch. So when I replaced my Windows PC I replaced it with a Linux PC. Unfortunately I had to have it's motherboard replaced after less than a year too. Then after doing some comparisons I chose to get a MacBook Pro for a new laptop. It's price was about the same as other OEM's offerings and less than others'.
They said "A similar, Apple-branded computer could cost more than $2,000." They didn't say "To get a better Apple branded computer..." or "At least as good an Apple branded computer". They said "similar". Even a bleeding lawyer would have to admit that there's a clear implication that their system was "similar" to a $2000+ Mac.
The quote "But they never made any such implication" was not mine. It was the GP's, quote.
I wasn't talking about the cost difference between Dell's high end workstation and a Mac high end workstation, I was talking about the original article comparing a midrange PC with a Mac workstation as if they were "similar".
You're the one on drugs, though I wish I were. You said nothing about high end hardware not counting.
2008 calling. Macs have been comparably priced to PCs for years.
You CAN compare them to similar spec'd PC hardware to see how overpriced they are.
For a few years now I have. Just a little while ago I did again. In a previous post about TFA I posted how a Dell configured similar to a Mac Pro cost considerably more than the Mac.
IANAL, but this sounds like the IBM vs. Clone lawsuits of the 80s where IBM wanted to be the only company to sell their IBM software on IBM hardware. They lost that battle, and if APple were to try to enforce their EULA they would lose that one as well.
There's a difference between IBM's case and this one, Microsoft. Microsoft supplied IBM as well as the cloners with DOS. Apple only supplies OS X for installation on Macs.
I think they aren't suing because 1) this isn't their market and 2) they wouldn't win and it would open the door for a precendent where any and all PC vendors would start selling hardware with OSX preinstalled.
If Apple were to do nothing then that could encourage other OEMs to release Mac clones as well. Apple tried Mac clones once before and they lost money.
Why? It is a matter of taste and no other reason. I simply don't like any of the Mac OSes I've used and, yes, I've used many of them throughout the years.
Ok.
I happily admit that I take the extra time and effort to make as secure as possible a Windows OS by choice.
Except Windows 2003, and now Vista, I've used every version of Windows since 3.x. And DOS before then. The only Windows I liked at all was NT4. I've used Macs since they came out as well. And Amigas and Linux. I prefer Macs over Windows PCs but Amigas were my fav.
I like the Air because of the beauty and the size. As a travel buddy it would be ideal for me. (I'm quite often on the road.)
I'd like a laptop with a larger screen because I love photography and would like to be out in nature, hiking and such, a lot. I've read all too many/.ers say "bigger" laptops are too heavy. I've backpacked with backpacks weighing 50 to 100 lbs, I've even carried 120 lb backpacks, and if a laptop under 10 lbs is too heavy then I'm badly out of shape.
I simply prefer the Windows layout/method/experience.
About the only thing I like about Windows is the Explorer. However now Linux and OS X have layouts somewhat similar.
At home that is my OS of choice. (Specifically Windows XP Professional Edition but Vista's good enough if you turn off all the new features.)
Next to my knee I have my Windows NT4 DEC Alpha box, next to it is my Linux box, and towards my back is my Windows ME PC. As for XP, after it came out the college I attended got a bunch of new Dell Dimensions I believe with XP installed. The very first day of class I walked into the classroom seeing the new PC, I sat down and started booting up the PC where I sat. Five minutes later it still hadn't booted up, it was frozen. I finally had to push and hold the power button in before rebooting.
But at some point the people at Psystar must have clicked "I Agree", so they agreed to comply.
However most people don't have access to the EULA before they buy and once you open the software you might be able to exchange the disk for one with the same stuff on it but you may not be able to return it for a refund. I don't know how many receipts I've got, a lot of them though, with "Exchange for like item only if open" or something like it, printed.
Apple already tried Mac clones, while Jobs was gone. But when they brought Steve back he looked at the books and saw the clones were costing more for Apple in lost hardware sales than it made in software licensing. So he ended the licensing.
If they do sue, I won't be offering them a bandage for their blown-off foot.
They'd be shooting their foot if they allowed clones again. Actually Apple is stuck between a rock and a hard place, if Apple does nothing their hardware sales can go do, as well as get a black eye because the clones don't "just work". Psystar may look bad but so will Apple. And if Apple does sue they'll get bad publicity.
Or only if you compare "like for like" by absolutely insisting that the Wintel box have every feature of the Mac, and discount everything that the "like" Wintel box has (once you get done with it) as having no value. Otherwise you're looking at a 40-70% premium.
But what I was objecting to was the implication that Apple was charging a 200% premium for comparable hardware.
Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus-Windows® XP Professional loaded
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI Capable
2GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS)
16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD(TM) and Roxio Creator(TM) Dell Ed
320GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache(TM)
cost $3933. While the configuration of the two aren't the same I got them as close as I could. Trying to configure a Dell for large business cost even more. And I didn't find a home and home office PC that offered 2 CPUs or Xeon processors.
The fact that people are seriously interested in buying cheapo generic PCs at something close to Apple's markup
What markup?
to get an OS that doesn't suck in hardware that doesn't lock them in to forklift upgrades should be raising red flags at Apple. In the marketing department, not legal.
Yea, maybe Psystar's offering will cause Apple to release a minitower Mac though I doubt it.
I have no problem with monopolies, so long as it's not a government granted monopoly, what I have trouble with is when that monopoly uses it's position as leverage to enter another market anticompetitively.
I really want to buy the MacBook Air for the beauty and quality of the hardware.
I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro and love the looks and quality of the hardware, but I can't imagine ever wanting to get a MacBook Air. Now if Apple were to release a 21" MBP, mine is 17", I'd be in line to get one.
I'd be apt to piss off the fanboys as I'd do all that I could to avoid using Leopard though.
Why avoid Leopard? I admit I still have Tiger on my MBP, though I have the Leopard upgrade I see no reason for me to upgrade. Leopard offers nothing over Tiger that's worth it to me, even though I got it free. Give me another year and I might upgrade.
Gotta hand it to 'em, they make some damned pretty stuff.
Which is stable and lasts for years. Typically Macs hold their price as well as usefulness better than Windows PCs.
Actually corporations are a reaction to liability. The first businesses granted a Corporate Charter were the Honourable East India Company in 1600 and the Dutch East India Company in 1602. Both companies were in shipping which was a risky business. Ships had to deal with storms such as hurricanes and pirates. When a ship sunk or was attacked the ship owner was financially liable. The owner of the lost goods had to be paid back. The crewmen or their survivors had to be paid as well. This could bankrupt the owners, who could even loose their homes. So the British and Dutch allowed companies to be granted a corporate charter, which gave the corporation's owners limited liability. The most a stockholder could loose is the amount they invested. However back then corporations were only granted charters if the corporation served the Common Good or Public Good. Once a corporation no longer did it's corporate charter could be revoked. Today governments no longer revoke charters though. As Thomas Jefferson warned, "I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."
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If Apple can't make an appliance that has the options I want then I am not buying it.
That's really it isn't it, it's not the price? Apple doesn't offer a Mac with the options you want.
FalconDo you really mean Apple doesn't offer you a Mac configured the way you want it? If you do a side by side comparison of a Macbook or Macbook Pro and comparable Windows laptop, or a Mac Pro and comparable tower PC from a Windows OEM you'll see the price of the Apple offering is in line with the Windows PC offerings. Now what many people who say Macs are too expensive is that Apple doesn't offer a midrange desktop or tower.
FalconThe desktop/tower with separate monitor is still the most popular seller from the PC vendors.
In PCs above $1000 Macs dominate: "Apple dominates sales for PCs above $1,000".
their big sellers are still separate tower types, specifically mid-low range ones.
That's one area Apple isn't in. As someone said dealing with TFA, most people who say Macs are too expensive what they really mean is that Apple doesn't offer a computer configures the way they want it.
mean look at the server market, these days it's all rackmount hardware, mostly 1U.
Apple offers 1U servers, the Xserve. Unfortunately I didn't find data on what it's market share is otherwise I'd post it and the link.
Falcon"constantly having to reinstall windows...." you're doing it wrong.
The first few tymes I reinstalled Windows I was told to by tech support. I ordered and bought a PC from Gateway, and never will again. In the first year I had it I called tech support maybe half a dozen tymes and 2 or 3 of the calls the tech told me to reinstall Windows after walking me through some tests. After a couple of years going through this when I started getting a lot of system errs and crashes, believing the tech would tell me to reinstall I'd do it on my own.
my wife has a vista pc (ugh) and an XP-SP2 machine... we use her XP machine *just* to watch DVDs, and TV and DVR some TV programs.... it's uptime.... UPTIME mind you.... is over 30 days
I don't have a PC with XP but the first tyme I used one, it was at the college I attended. On the first day of a semester I walked into a classroom with all new Dells on the desks. I sat down and powered up the PC where I sat. Five minutes later it still hadn't booted up, the screen was frozen with boot info showing. I had to push in and hold the power button until it shutdown. On the other hand I had my NT4 PC running for more than 30 days at a tyme. Not once did I get an err from Windows. Unfortunately it's a DEC Alpha PC and I wasn't able to get much software installed. What was weird is that the only commercial software I was able to install was Borland C++ however I was able to install some free/shareware.
and the iBook G4 (because its small 12" form factor is perfect for carrying to on location photo shoots...)
Are you a pro photographer, or do you work as a photographer? I'm on disability now but I'm hoping to start working as a photographer. Which is why I wanted a large display with my laptop. I'm also looking for a good external display at least 24", I'd prefer an LCD but haven't been able to find one that a few photographers will recommend. As for portability, the weight doesn't bother me. What bothers me some is banging the laptop however the backpack I carry it in has plenty in it for cushioning.
FalconNo prob, I make way too many errs. Among other problems my memory is bad.
FalconYou said nothing about high end hardware not counting.
This whole thread is about Psystar and what Macs are comparable to it. That's all. Mac Pros aren't even on the table, that's the whole point of my original message.
You've changed the rules then yourself. In the post I replied to you brought in laptops, and Psystar hasn't come out with a laptop. Now when I point out the high end you say it's not applicable.
However I just thought of something I hadn't thought of before, nor has anyone else brought it up. Psystar isn't the first, or only, company that builds Macs besides Apple. Axiotron makes the Modbook, a tablet Mac. However it's an aftermarket modification of the Macbook. Now that I've thought of it I think it would be a good idea if Apple bought Axiotron. I'd love to have a table Mac but wouldn't like to see another company, Axiotron, put out of business. That way I could still take it down to the Genius Bar in an Apple store and still get support for it.
FalconThe entry level Mac Pro is $2800 with no monitor. Now that's no surprising as it features things like dual quad core Xeons.
You can get a Mac Pro with only 1 quad core Xeon. That cuts the price by $500.
if you buy the all in ones, you have to get a monitor every time you want a computer upgrade.
That's the problem I have with all-in-ones, they're simply a waste of resources. Though I don't like it either, the Mac Mini is better in this regard.
they don't offer many choices, and one of the choices they exclude is one of the most popular choices: consumer desktop/tower and separate monitor.
Yea, that's the problem I have with Apple's lineup. I've heard Apple doesn't think it's worth it to spend the money on a midrange computer but I disagree.
Falconapple engineers and coders are too dumb to figure out how to get "their" (stolen from debian) software
Name one program Apple stole from Debian, where's your citation?
they make the hardware and they write the software to work with that set of hardware specifically
That's right, they write the software, they don't steal it unlike Microsoft.
and points to the non-mac x86 market machines' biggest advantage as it's biggest flaw
And what advantage is that? Other than that Windows run most PCs. Is it that unless you're a super user or sys admin it crashes frequently?
and brainless mindless sheep will still flock to apple because they make a laptop that uses a magnet to stay closed rather than a latch
Just as mindless sheep buy Windows because it's the dominate OS. After 10 years of having PC hardware having to be replaced and constantly having to reinstall Windows because it kept crashing I decided maybe it's tyme to switch. So when I replaced my Windows PC I replaced it with a Linux PC. Unfortunately I had to have it's motherboard replaced after less than a year too. Then after doing some comparisons I chose to get a MacBook Pro for a new laptop. It's price was about the same as other OEM's offerings and less than others'.
FalconThey said "A similar, Apple-branded computer could cost more than $2,000." They didn't say "To get a better Apple branded computer..." or "At least as good an Apple branded computer". They said "similar". Even a bleeding lawyer would have to admit that there's a clear implication that their system was "similar" to a $2000+ Mac.
The quote "But they never made any such implication" was not mine. It was the GP's, quote.
FalconI wasn't talking about the cost difference between Dell's high end workstation and a Mac high end workstation, I was talking about the original article comparing a midrange PC with a Mac workstation as if they were "similar".
You're the one on drugs, though I wish I were. You said nothing about high end hardware not counting.
FalconPfff you're lucky with software if you can take it back at all.
I've taken software back without a problem, unopened that is.
Falcon2008 calling. Macs have been comparably priced to PCs for years.
You CAN compare them to similar spec'd PC hardware to see how overpriced they are.
For a few years now I have. Just a little while ago I did again. In a previous post about TFA I posted how a Dell configured similar to a Mac Pro cost considerably more than the Mac.
FalconIANAL, but this sounds like the IBM vs. Clone lawsuits of the 80s where IBM wanted to be the only company to sell their IBM software on IBM hardware. They lost that battle, and if APple were to try to enforce their EULA they would lose that one as well.
There's a difference between IBM's case and this one, Microsoft. Microsoft supplied IBM as well as the cloners with DOS. Apple only supplies OS X for installation on Macs.
I think they aren't suing because 1) this isn't their market and 2) they wouldn't win and it would open the door for a precendent where any and all PC vendors would start selling hardware with OSX preinstalled.
If Apple were to do nothing then that could encourage other OEMs to release Mac clones as well. Apple tried Mac clones once before and they lost money.
FalconWhy? It is a matter of taste and no other reason. I simply don't like any of the Mac OSes I've used and, yes, I've used many of them throughout the years.
Ok.
I happily admit that I take the extra time and effort to make as secure as possible a Windows OS by choice.
Except Windows 2003, and now Vista, I've used every version of Windows since 3.x. And DOS before then. The only Windows I liked at all was NT4. I've used Macs since they came out as well. And Amigas and Linux. I prefer Macs over Windows PCs but Amigas were my fav.
I like the Air because of the beauty and the size. As a travel buddy it would be ideal for me. (I'm quite often on the road.)
I'd like a laptop with a larger screen because I love photography and would like to be out in nature, hiking and such, a lot. I've read all too many /.ers say "bigger" laptops are too heavy. I've backpacked with backpacks weighing 50 to 100 lbs, I've even carried 120 lb backpacks, and if a laptop under 10 lbs is too heavy then I'm badly out of shape.
I simply prefer the Windows layout/method/experience.
About the only thing I like about Windows is the Explorer. However now Linux and OS X have layouts somewhat similar.
At home that is my OS of choice. (Specifically Windows XP Professional Edition but Vista's good enough if you turn off all the new features.)
Next to my knee I have my Windows NT4 DEC Alpha box, next to it is my Linux box, and towards my back is my Windows ME PC. As for XP, after it came out the college I attended got a bunch of new Dell Dimensions I believe with XP installed. The very first day of class I walked into the classroom seeing the new PC, I sat down and started booting up the PC where I sat. Five minutes later it still hadn't booted up, it was frozen. I finally had to push and hold the power button in before rebooting.
But at some point the people at Psystar must have clicked "I Agree", so they agreed to comply.
However most people don't have access to the EULA before they buy and once you open the software you might be able to exchange the disk for one with the same stuff on it but you may not be able to return it for a refund. I don't know how many receipts I've got, a lot of them though, with "Exchange for like item only if open" or something like it, printed.
FalconThis gives Apple more exposure.
Apple already tried Mac clones, while Jobs was gone. But when they brought Steve back he looked at the books and saw the clones were costing more for Apple in lost hardware sales than it made in software licensing. So he ended the licensing.
If they do sue, I won't be offering them a bandage for their blown-off foot.
They'd be shooting their foot if they allowed clones again. Actually Apple is stuck between a rock and a hard place, if Apple does nothing their hardware sales can go do, as well as get a black eye because the clones don't "just work". Psystar may look bad but so will Apple. And if Apple does sue they'll get bad publicity.
FalconOr only if you compare "like for like" by absolutely insisting that the Wintel box have every feature of the Mac, and discount everything that the "like" Wintel box has (once you get done with it) as having no value. Otherwise you're looking at a 40-70% premium.
But what I was objecting to was the implication that Apple was charging a 200% premium for comparable hardware.
The price for a Mac Pro with:
costs $2,799.00 whereas a Dell Precision T5400(from small and medium business) with:
cost $3933. While the configuration of the two aren't the same I got them as close as I could. Trying to configure a Dell for large business cost even more. And I didn't find a home and home office PC that offered 2 CPUs or Xeon processors.
FalconI think Apple's trying to hold on to that sort of "we're upper-end only" image.
Why did Apple release the iMac and the Mac Mini then?
FalconOh, I agree, I want something in that slot too. I was just objecting to the way they mplied that this was really an equivalent machine to the Mac Pro.
But they never made any such implication. You invented that up all on your own. All they said was:
The system is priced at $804.99. A similar, Apple-branded computer could cost more than $2,000.
Notice there they say a "similar", Apple has no similar system. The only expandable system Apple offers is the Mac Pro.
FalconThe fact that people are seriously interested in buying cheapo generic PCs at something close to Apple's markup
What markup?
to get an OS that doesn't suck in hardware that doesn't lock them in to forklift upgrades should be raising red flags at Apple. In the marketing department, not legal.
Yea, maybe Psystar's offering will cause Apple to release a minitower Mac though I doubt it.
FalconYou can hookup an external monitor to an iMac.
FalconI have no problem with monopolies, so long as it's not a government granted monopoly, what I have trouble with is when that monopoly uses it's position as leverage to enter another market anticompetitively.
FalconI really want to buy the MacBook Air for the beauty and quality of the hardware.
I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro and love the looks and quality of the hardware, but I can't imagine ever wanting to get a MacBook Air. Now if Apple were to release a 21" MBP, mine is 17", I'd be in line to get one.
I'd be apt to piss off the fanboys as I'd do all that I could to avoid using Leopard though.
Why avoid Leopard? I admit I still have Tiger on my MBP, though I have the Leopard upgrade I see no reason for me to upgrade. Leopard offers nothing over Tiger that's worth it to me, even though I got it free. Give me another year and I might upgrade.
Gotta hand it to 'em, they make some damned pretty stuff.
Which is stable and lasts for years. Typically Macs hold their price as well as usefulness better than Windows PCs.
FalconWhich is exactly where they don't want to be. Right now they're huge in the $1000 and up market, which I'm sure is where they're happy to be.
Yea, you could almost say Apple owns the market above $1000: "Apple dominates sales for PCs above $1,000".
FalconActually corporations are a reaction to liability. The first businesses granted a Corporate Charter were the Honourable East India Company in 1600 and the Dutch East India Company in 1602. Both companies were in shipping which was a risky business. Ships had to deal with storms such as hurricanes and pirates. When a ship sunk or was attacked the ship owner was financially liable. The owner of the lost goods had to be paid back. The crewmen or their survivors had to be paid as well. This could bankrupt the owners, who could even loose their homes. So the British and Dutch allowed companies to be granted a corporate charter, which gave the corporation's owners limited liability. The most a stockholder could loose is the amount they invested. However back then corporations were only granted charters if the corporation served the Common Good or Public Good. Once a corporation no longer did it's corporate charter could be revoked. Today governments no longer revoke charters though. As Thomas Jefferson warned, "I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."
Falcon