The only people that really value Devry and ITT grads are the companies telling you that. I would rather have a smart kid who went to a more affordable state school. They get more theory. The advantage of a good CS program over these private programs is that the public schools don't care if you fail. This forces you to work harder. Devry and ITT can't fail that many people because it costs them money.
Most programmers are incompetent. It's across the board.
Once you hit the 5-7 year mark, the most you can hope for(unless you have a US security clearance) is about $95,000 no matter how much better you are than your college. Many companies pay much less than that for senior level people. This has been steady since about 2000. Google supposedly pays up to $150,000 however, that is one company and that is probably for a PhD, not a normal IT worker.
IT salaries for managers are holding steady too. The only way to really go up in salary is to make it to the VP level, but only a very small percentage of people make it that high. I have seen a small number of temp jobs(6 months or so ) that pay $65-90/hour. There are very few of these, so even if you are the best of the best you typically cannot stay employed at this level for ever, unless you are willing to travel around the country at your own expense and live out of a suitcase.
No one is starving, but it is frustrating since the very best people making the max salary are typically MUCH better than the average person making that much. So all you end up with is more work. The first and second level managers don't make that much more, they just work alot more hours. It's not until 3 levels of management above you where the wages really go up.
I don't think it's a good sign when the top salaries are capped like this. Even classified jobs cap around $120,000/year. This is true for classified jobs that take 6-8 months to fill. They won't raise the salaries to attract someone sooner. Yes it's quite a bit of money. However, people who work in finance who are equally as technical can make $300,000/year or more. They get paid more for performance.
I believe this cap in salaries is the main reason why so many people are completely incompetent in software development and database administration. Once you hit the max salary there is no incentive to make yourself better even though there is still alot of room to grow. There is a huge different between the typical 'senior' person and the truly senior person. It's like the Different between Michael Jordan and Charles Oakley. Both made the All-star team one year in the 1990s. This can get rather frustrating for those of us who are in the elite category, because others who make the same amount of money tend to get in the way.
I have a masters in software engineering. It is useful. There are very few Software Engineering degrees in the US, though the number is increasing. Virtually every computer science program has a number of courses in Software Engineering.
No most companies don't do much 'software engineering' as the book teaches it. I have been in shops with 60 developers that did not have a true development environment. However, federal government contracting follows it more closely.
There is alot of work for computer engineers relative to the number that are out there. There is a ton of work in the US Federal government contracting sector.
Computer Science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering are far more powerful degrees. They are also much hard than IS. I took some IS classes to learn some new things at a local state college. I thought the classes were a joke. The classes were easy. There was no low level theory at all. No you will never directly use the theory, but if you understand the concepts its much easier to grab a book and learn the practical stuff on your own. The same school has very hard computer science courses.
Even if you want to be a network engineer. You will learn ALOT more with a computer science degree. You can then do a minor in information systems and take a few classes that you are interested in.
Computer engineering is probably the most valuable to employers. The reason is that the barrier to entry is higher. For a network administrator or a programmer you can learn it without school. You really can't learn computer engineering without school.
At work we have 8GB of RAM, but those are Solaris boxes that cost $70,000. I was on another project with a $250,000 server that had 16 GB of RAM.
Those prices will drop in time. By 2005 you will probably see 6-8GB boards for less than $2000. So very high end gamers will buy it.
Then in 2006, they will become affordable. That is pretty fast. Games won't be developed that need that much RAM for a while anyway. The only reason you need tons of RAM this day is if you run a server.
I'm a developer in the Washington DC area. Ive been on 5 projects. The four that have not required US citizenship has been dominated by non-Citzens, the plurality of which are Indians.
My take is that most people are slightly better than worthless regardless of where they come from.
I'd also like to point out that on the Oracle database end of development there are typical 50-100 applicants for each job and 80-90% are non-citizens. Its at the point where non-Citizens do not want anymore immigrations. They want it totally cut off, because their wages are going down.
Now about offshoring. Larger companies are not outsourcing, they are firing Americans and opening shops in India. The bulk of the cost is upfront. Once these shops are set up and processes are in place, it gets alot cheaper to move people over. I think the real goal is to do as much 'core development' as possible offshore and keep a skeleton crew of Americans to handle customer relations and maintenance.
This and the massive amount of immigration, plus the slow down in IT has radically lowered salaries. Its at the point now where a small but growing number of companies are offering entry level wages to senior level people. Its at the point, where if that is all I Could get, I would switch careers. It's not worth it.
We have H1-Bs in my department and they are average. They had to sign a contract where if they quit their job before getting a greencard(and hardly any of them get this) they have to pay the company $18,000. They have been here for 4 years, are payed the minimum in the pay bracket and have never gotten a raise. Both of them have pulled all-nighters for weeks at a time. None of the Americans will do that. Not worth it.
How do you compete with these wages? Your flooding the supply. There are more people in India than the US, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, and Australia combined.
The problem with this is that its an under the cover trade deficit. Think about. The costs to develop get spent outside the US and the money spent on the project is payed inside the US. Its an un-tracked trade deficit.
Plus, these are very high paying jobs. So when we career switch its back to entry level and to lower paying jobs. I'm relatively young, but people in their 40s really can't get true entry level jobs where you can move up. So we have less money to spend.
What really annoys me about this are the lies that companies tell. Companies will lie to customers and employees about outsourcing. They are not honest.
I'll ride out IT for a few more years, but I'm also investigating a career switch. I will not give someone my senior level skills for lousy pay. What is in it for me? I'm just putting money in your pocket. I expect wages to continue to go down for a while. They might go down to the point where US citizens wont do the work. Similiar to the argument for illegal immigrants. Companies offer wages so low, its not worth it to do the job, but they argue its 'fair market value', so they want more outsourcing and immigration.
Same argument people use for hiring illegals.
Note: not one biggoted or racist argument here.
Slashdot Mirror
ise.gmu.edu
GMU has an MS in Software Engineering. What do you think of this degree? There don't seem to be alot of degrees like this around the country.
The only people that really value Devry and ITT grads are the companies telling you that. I would rather have a smart kid who went to a more affordable state school. They get more theory. The advantage of a good CS program over these private programs is that the public schools don't care if you fail. This forces you to work harder. Devry and ITT can't fail that many people because it costs them money.
Most programmers are incompetent. It's across the board.
Once you hit the 5-7 year mark, the most you can hope for(unless you have a US security clearance) is about $95,000 no matter how much better you are than your college. Many companies pay much less than that for senior level people. This has been steady since about 2000. Google supposedly pays up to $150,000 however, that is one company and that is probably for a PhD, not a normal IT worker. IT salaries for managers are holding steady too. The only way to really go up in salary is to make it to the VP level, but only a very small percentage of people make it that high. I have seen a small number of temp jobs(6 months or so ) that pay $65-90/hour. There are very few of these, so even if you are the best of the best you typically cannot stay employed at this level for ever, unless you are willing to travel around the country at your own expense and live out of a suitcase. No one is starving, but it is frustrating since the very best people making the max salary are typically MUCH better than the average person making that much. So all you end up with is more work. The first and second level managers don't make that much more, they just work alot more hours. It's not until 3 levels of management above you where the wages really go up. I don't think it's a good sign when the top salaries are capped like this. Even classified jobs cap around $120,000/year. This is true for classified jobs that take 6-8 months to fill. They won't raise the salaries to attract someone sooner. Yes it's quite a bit of money. However, people who work in finance who are equally as technical can make $300,000/year or more. They get paid more for performance. I believe this cap in salaries is the main reason why so many people are completely incompetent in software development and database administration. Once you hit the max salary there is no incentive to make yourself better even though there is still alot of room to grow. There is a huge different between the typical 'senior' person and the truly senior person. It's like the Different between Michael Jordan and Charles Oakley. Both made the All-star team one year in the 1990s. This can get rather frustrating for those of us who are in the elite category, because others who make the same amount of money tend to get in the way.
I have a masters in software engineering. It is useful. There are very few Software Engineering degrees in the US, though the number is increasing. Virtually every computer science program has a number of courses in Software Engineering. No most companies don't do much 'software engineering' as the book teaches it. I have been in shops with 60 developers that did not have a true development environment. However, federal government contracting follows it more closely.
There is alot of work for computer engineers relative to the number that are out there. There is a ton of work in the US Federal government contracting sector.
Computer Science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering are far more powerful degrees. They are also much hard than IS. I took some IS classes to learn some new things at a local state college. I thought the classes were a joke. The classes were easy. There was no low level theory at all. No you will never directly use the theory, but if you understand the concepts its much easier to grab a book and learn the practical stuff on your own. The same school has very hard computer science courses.
Even if you want to be a network engineer. You will learn ALOT more with a computer science degree. You can then do a minor in information systems and take a few classes that you are interested in.
Computer engineering is probably the most valuable to employers. The reason is that the barrier to entry is higher. For a network administrator or a programmer you can learn it without school. You really can't learn computer engineering without school.
At work we have 8GB of RAM, but those are Solaris boxes that cost $70,000. I was on another project with a $250,000 server that had 16 GB of RAM.
Those prices will drop in time. By 2005 you will probably see 6-8GB boards for less than $2000. So very high end gamers will buy it.
Then in 2006, they will become affordable. That is pretty fast. Games won't be developed that need that much RAM for a while anyway. The only reason you need tons of RAM this day is if you run a server.
I'm a developer in the Washington DC area. Ive been on 5 projects. The four that have not required US citizenship has been dominated by non-Citzens, the plurality of which are Indians. My take is that most people are slightly better than worthless regardless of where they come from. I'd also like to point out that on the Oracle database end of development there are typical 50-100 applicants for each job and 80-90% are non-citizens. Its at the point where non-Citizens do not want anymore immigrations. They want it totally cut off, because their wages are going down. Now about offshoring. Larger companies are not outsourcing, they are firing Americans and opening shops in India. The bulk of the cost is upfront. Once these shops are set up and processes are in place, it gets alot cheaper to move people over. I think the real goal is to do as much 'core development' as possible offshore and keep a skeleton crew of Americans to handle customer relations and maintenance. This and the massive amount of immigration, plus the slow down in IT has radically lowered salaries. Its at the point now where a small but growing number of companies are offering entry level wages to senior level people. Its at the point, where if that is all I Could get, I would switch careers. It's not worth it. We have H1-Bs in my department and they are average. They had to sign a contract where if they quit their job before getting a greencard(and hardly any of them get this) they have to pay the company $18,000. They have been here for 4 years, are payed the minimum in the pay bracket and have never gotten a raise. Both of them have pulled all-nighters for weeks at a time. None of the Americans will do that. Not worth it. How do you compete with these wages? Your flooding the supply. There are more people in India than the US, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, and Australia combined. The problem with this is that its an under the cover trade deficit. Think about. The costs to develop get spent outside the US and the money spent on the project is payed inside the US. Its an un-tracked trade deficit. Plus, these are very high paying jobs. So when we career switch its back to entry level and to lower paying jobs. I'm relatively young, but people in their 40s really can't get true entry level jobs where you can move up. So we have less money to spend. What really annoys me about this are the lies that companies tell. Companies will lie to customers and employees about outsourcing. They are not honest. I'll ride out IT for a few more years, but I'm also investigating a career switch. I will not give someone my senior level skills for lousy pay. What is in it for me? I'm just putting money in your pocket. I expect wages to continue to go down for a while. They might go down to the point where US citizens wont do the work. Similiar to the argument for illegal immigrants. Companies offer wages so low, its not worth it to do the job, but they argue its 'fair market value', so they want more outsourcing and immigration. Same argument people use for hiring illegals. Note: not one biggoted or racist argument here.