What I don't understand is exactly what advantage is Java providing on the server-side. Do you really need cross-platform bytecode at that level?
No, of course not. Servers haven't run "cross-platform bytecode" in six or seven years now; that is simply the deployment format (a "portable executable" if you will). The moderns JVMs (several implementations, including from IBM, Sun and BEA) take that deployment format and convert it to machine code, either as they load it ("JIT") or as they run it ("profile-based optimization", a la Sun's HotSpot).
The concept of portable formats is so universally accepted (e.g. XML, ZIP, HTML, etc.) as to require no defense. Java simply has a portable format for executable code.
Performance has not been a major issue for a couple years now, and the scalability is unparalleled. We recently completed a test in which a Java cluster (Tangosol Coherence on x86/Linux) was processing over 1 BILLION clustered transactions per hour. Java now powers many of the equities and currency exchanges, trading systems, banking systems, travel systems, retail web sites, logistics systems, etc., often in HA scale-out configurations attaining a scaling factor approaching 1.0.
Java is also huge in the PDA and cell phone markets. There are over a billion such Java-enabled devices out there. The version of Java for these devices is a bit cut down to say the least, meaning that (in most cases) you can't take a server app and run the code on a phone.
Java has already entered the "real time" systems marketplace, using both Real Time Java (a bastardized Java that has hard real time guarantees) and some of the newer JVMs like jRockit that can provide soft real time guarantees (e.g. no GC pause over 15ms).
Strangely enough, the only market that Java hasn't really penetrated is the desktop market -- which is where it originally started with all those ugly and slow applets!;-) On the desktop, the combination of "difficult to make Java really beautiful" and "eats large amounts of memory per JVM" have kept Java from being a good choice for most application development. The big business apps on the desktop are often Java, but utilities, command line tools, etc. are almost never Java.
Is it just because of the extensive Java API's? That seems unfortunate because you could have the same API's in a native compiled language and get much better performance.
Obviously, a rich set of APIs helps. However, since Java is natively compiled (see above) there is no reason why it would be faster in a different language. Furthermore, most Java VMs use runtime profiling information to optimize the binary code even further, including massive amounts of inlining (that can de-inline dynamically if the optimization proves to be incorrect). The result is actually faster execution in a VM for large applications with lots of tiny methods and zillions of calls. Remember, "VM" does not mean interpreted; it simply means that the specification for execution guarantees are not bound to a single execution implementation.
Native compiled languages are just as portable (or even more portable) as Java.
It is an interesting argument, but it is not true. Our customers use the same binary on the Z and on 20 different Linux distros and Windows and OS400 and HPUX and MacOSX etc., and often within the same Tangosol cluster. Before Java, I used C/C++ extensively, and it was not portable without huge amounts of additional work (much of which had to be baked in up front).
As a language Java is certainly not easier to use than the higher-level languages like PHP, Perl, Ruby, etc. It's very verbose and complicated (relatively speaking). I can understand using scripting languages, it's Java that doesn't make any sense.
That is a reasonable and logical argument. The same is occurring today in the Java world. Ruby (jRuby) and Groovy and BeanShell are
First, you have to have an application that would benefit from Sun's "the grid". That rules out 99.9% of all applications right out of the gate. Then, you have to find one that isn't already running in some cobbled-together-yet-acceptable manner. That rules out 99% of the remaining 0.01%. You're left with two or three applications, tops.
Now think about the expense in actually preparing an application to run on this "grid":
- You have to re-build the app in a way that it can run on Sun's "the grid" - You have to test it on "the grid" (this is probably the easiest part, and it still will cost at least US$100k in equipment, software and time) - You have get the app bundled up in such a way that you can put it on Sun's "the grid" - You have to get your data over there to Sun's "the grid" so that the app actually has something to crunch - You have to get your lawyers to give you permission to put your data over there on Sun's "the grid" - Your lawyers either just say "no" (probably!) or they suck up time from your best engineers to verify that it's possible to securely put your confidential data over there on Sun's "the grid" - Your lawyers then say "no"
In the end, like most business decisions, we see companies going with the "known and trusted" instead of risking their assets on the "unknown and untrusted". Makes sense, doesn't it?
As a technology teacher, I have yet to embrace teaching the Advanced Placement Computer Science course to high school students. The reason? I do not wish to teach students using a proprietary language. The AP Computer Science course requires learning Java.
Yes, as a brilliant teacher and would-be social activist, you certainly know better than the AP board. And businesses that use Java. Stick it to the man!
Let's see: we have kaffe, gcj, and a handful of other open source attempts to clone java, all of which are not exactly one-hundred percent compatible, and none of which would exist if java had been open source in the first place.
Let's see, we have the JDK for free, so WTF are people cloning it in the first place?;-)
You really think that the term "free software" has a specific, well-defined meaning? I just asked 100 people on the street, and they all agreed that free software is good because they like getting things without paying for them..
bobhagopian said: What's truly amazing about Pioneer and all the other satellites of the era..
What's even more amazing is that they aren't satellites.
When is the last freaking time you actually paid attntion to and responded to any anoynmous poster in any technical disucssion?
This isn't "anonymous coward" style anonymous, it's the creation of a plethora of accounts that have real-sounding names and participate in real conversations (sometimes with themselves.)
For more information, refer to Rickard Oberg's blog and Mike Spille's blog. (BTW - Rickard is one of the authors of JBoss.)
(Just in case you didn't figure it out from my login, I'm the Cameron Purdy that purportedly co-authored the article with Rickard.)
Peace.
Slashdot Mirror
> what strategies should a developer take to insure that the resulting program is as crash-free as possible? First, avoid using C++.
> there is no Java JVM for a Palm I have seen at least 3 different JVMs for the Palm. Peace.
No, of course not. Servers haven't run "cross-platform bytecode" in six or seven years now; that is simply the deployment format (a "portable executable" if you will). The moderns JVMs (several implementations, including from IBM, Sun and BEA) take that deployment format and convert it to machine code, either as they load it ("JIT") or as they run it ("profile-based optimization", a la Sun's HotSpot). The concept of portable formats is so universally accepted (e.g. XML, ZIP, HTML, etc.) as to require no defense. Java simply has a portable format for executable code. Performance has not been a major issue for a couple years now, and the scalability is unparalleled. We recently completed a test in which a Java cluster (Tangosol Coherence on x86/Linux) was processing over 1 BILLION clustered transactions per hour. Java now powers many of the equities and currency exchanges, trading systems, banking systems, travel systems, retail web sites, logistics systems, etc., often in HA scale-out configurations attaining a scaling factor approaching 1.0. Java is also huge in the PDA and cell phone markets. There are over a billion such Java-enabled devices out there. The version of Java for these devices is a bit cut down to say the least, meaning that (in most cases) you can't take a server app and run the code on a phone. Java has already entered the "real time" systems marketplace, using both Real Time Java (a bastardized Java that has hard real time guarantees) and some of the newer JVMs like jRockit that can provide soft real time guarantees (e.g. no GC pause over 15ms). Strangely enough, the only market that Java hasn't really penetrated is the desktop market -- which is where it originally started with all those ugly and slow applets! ;-) On the desktop, the combination of "difficult to make Java really beautiful" and "eats large amounts of memory per JVM" have kept Java from being a good choice for most application development. The big business apps on the desktop are often Java, but utilities, command line tools, etc. are almost never Java.
Obviously, a rich set of APIs helps. However, since Java is natively compiled (see above) there is no reason why it would be faster in a different language. Furthermore, most Java VMs use runtime profiling information to optimize the binary code even further, including massive amounts of inlining (that can de-inline dynamically if the optimization proves to be incorrect). The result is actually faster execution in a VM for large applications with lots of tiny methods and zillions of calls. Remember, "VM" does not mean interpreted; it simply means that the specification for execution guarantees are not bound to a single execution implementation.
It is an interesting argument, but it is not true. Our customers use the same binary on the Z and on 20 different Linux distros and Windows and OS400 and HPUX and MacOSX etc., and often within the same Tangosol cluster. Before Java, I used C/C++ extensively, and it was not portable without huge amounts of additional work (much of which had to be baked in up front).
That is a reasonable and logical argument. The same is occurring today in the Java world. Ruby (jRuby) and Groovy and BeanShell are
First, you have to have an application that would benefit from Sun's "the grid". That rules out 99.9% of all applications right out of the gate. Then, you have to find one that isn't already running in some cobbled-together-yet-acceptable manner. That rules out 99% of the remaining 0.01%. You're left with two or three applications, tops.
Now think about the expense in actually preparing an application to run on this "grid":
- You have to re-build the app in a way that it can run on Sun's "the grid"
- You have to test it on "the grid" (this is probably the easiest part, and it still will cost at least US$100k in equipment, software and time)
- You have get the app bundled up in such a way that you can put it on Sun's "the grid"
- You have to get your data over there to Sun's "the grid" so that the app actually has something to crunch
- You have to get your lawyers to give you permission to put your data over there on Sun's "the grid"
- Your lawyers either just say "no" (probably!) or they suck up time from your best engineers to verify that it's possible to securely put your confidential data over there on Sun's "the grid"
- Your lawyers then say "no"
In the end, like most business decisions, we see companies going with the "known and trusted" instead of risking their assets on the "unknown and untrusted". Makes sense, doesn't it?
Peace.
Yes, Dan the local plumber has nothing better to do with his time than continue development on an open source RDBMS ;-)
But you're the teacher ..
Yes, as a brilliant teacher and would-be social activist, you certainly know better than the AP board. And businesses that use Java. Stick it to the man!
Let's see, we have the JDK for free, so WTF are people cloning it in the first place? ;-)
You really think that the term "free software" has a specific, well-defined meaning? I just asked 100 people on the street, and they all agreed that free software is good because they like getting things without paying for them ..
Session issues call for something like Coherence for clustering, letting you scale horizontally by running any number of Tomcat servers.
bobhagopian said: What's truly amazing about Pioneer and all the other satellites of the era.. What's even more amazing is that they aren't satellites.
When is the last freaking time you actually paid attntion to and responded to any anoynmous poster in any technical disucssion? This isn't "anonymous coward" style anonymous, it's the creation of a plethora of accounts that have real-sounding names and participate in real conversations (sometimes with themselves.) For more information, refer to Rickard Oberg's blog and Mike Spille's blog. (BTW - Rickard is one of the authors of JBoss.) (Just in case you didn't figure it out from my login, I'm the Cameron Purdy that purportedly co-authored the article with Rickard.) Peace.