1. Java enforces Exception handling, so it is not a design failure, maybe a bug and not listed anywhere...
2. That is can't be a design failure either, it sounds like a bug, and not realy critical, cause it only helps code design is not a very critical keyword.
3. But necessary, one are classes the other are generic types, how should they be handled otherwise ?
4. Basicly it is runtime typed, thats indeed one of the anoying points, but a good linker tool could easily overcome the problem.
5. ??? Works fine for me. Which part do you mean ? It is one of the most thread safe API i saw until now
6. AWT is a just a basic window library, but Swing is very sophisticated... well compare whats on the other side... well if Swing Sux, then please i would like to hear the swear words that could possible describes MFC or even Motif ?
7. Unsafe Casts in Java ??? Well it has dynamic Type checking, you can not call anything which signatures does not fit on runtime. See 3.
8. Buahaha... the.H/.C concept is one of the bullshities concepts in the realms of programing.
9. Not at all, it leads to clean OO Concepts and safes from a lot of pittfalls in larger class hierachies, one of the strange things is that C++ developers always want to inherite from as many classes they possibly can, with no advantage by doing so and generating big unmantainable class structures... interfaces describe callback mechanisms, nothing more.
10. Why ? It cleans up the mess and makes browsing code easier.
C/C++ is the language, what can you do with it without a API ? Nothing, so there is nothing to scale on C/C++.
I meant the Java API is scalable.
- Secure
>Firstly, in a proper OS, language level security >isn't needed. Secondly, that lack of security in >C and C++ makes them more powerful.
Simple, programs than run for example in a browser are running on YOUR machine and can do anything they want (from sending you private documents over the internet upto installing the DOS attack bot). The Java API has is scalabe and has configurable securtiy mechanisms to example switch off file support in its API. Or limit network access.... no OS can really do that right now.
And C/C++ has not even an unsecure API, but that makes it not more powerfull.
- Plattform independent
>No, Java only runs on the Java platform, which >happens to be emulated on many other platforms.
Well the Java API is platform independent then. Try to write a programm that should run on Linux and Windows and MacOS, guess what you have to write... your own platform API. Java has already done that.
>If we compiled C or C++ for the Java >environment, it'd be platform independent as >well, and you could have all those security >things, too.
As soon as you have pointers to memory you can do(with the proper know how) anything you want... fast but never secure.
>- Prospering in all directions
>You mean that Java is an unfinished, changing >languages, rather than a fixed and stable >language? This is a good thing?
Ok, not in first glance, true.
But on the second it still has evolution and the APIs are expanding and get more complete and powerfull. C/C++ has no APIs at all. Or is the stdlib matching the needs of today in any way ?
>And btw, you don't have to use every feature a >language has to offer.
Exactly, so new Java features are a bonus.
- Skalable in Speed
>Now that's interesting. Have a link about >automatic use of extra processors? Uh... Intel >CPUs are not the only possible target for C/C++ >compilers!
... and CPU speed is the most important issue right ?
Mean the java compiled classes have enough info to get recompiled, that is what for example JIT compilers do.
C/C++ is not just for Intel CPUs but the.LIBs, programms and APIs you write your programs are, even so little details as machine endian or 32/64 bit CPU are not handled probably... when speaking about Java, one only has to port the Java API to the new platform or CPU, there is the total freedom of porting it to any hardware architekture... the information of a java programm is in the Class structure and usage of it not in the lines of code or the assembler instruction set.
Links, sorry not at hand... but Java makes Intel CPUs one out of many, cause they are not tied to it in any way.. even the Java VM introduces features that allow complete new CPU architectures, as for example multithreading CPUs, hardware exception handling, different instruction sets, runtime optimization of code etc... it is the fastest way out of the limited x86 instruction set and architekture.
>- Software Design
>These issues are all related to the programmer. >Personally, I like pointers. Yeah, you have to >be careful with them, but wreckless programming >is probably a bad idea anyway.
Ever worked with more than 1 person on a project over longer time ?
Open sources projects i saw are horrible in maintance and coding styles, cause everybody introduces there own style, knows more macro or operater overloading and compiler tricks... it is just not mantainable. I mean not even an unsigned 32 bit integer is standarised: unsigned, DWORD, TU32, uint32, ulong, etc.
>There is no rule that says you have to use the >STL.
Which makes C/C++ has not even its standariesed collection classes.
>- Complexity
>Java is not immune. Java is not a magic bullet.
Not the magic bullet. But lot of common sense.
>Wait until many Java spplications are at version >4.0 and get back to me. C++ gives programmers >the freedom to write clean or messy.
Exactly. But 2 clean talking C++ people still can often not understand each other;)
>Well, you don't have to write your own string >class. Nothing's to stop you from using the >string class that comes with your libraries
>(like, say CString), and nothing's to stop you >from using C-style string functions.
Yeah, but would it be nice to have a string class that is already powerfull enought to handle everything one want possible ever do with a String (including Unicode, and Kanji strings) ? And not go figuring everytime one has to incoperate a external lib what to heck do with the strings...
>C++ is more flexible than Java because is locked >in to the Java Environment, the Java Libraries, >etc.
Sure there are places where C/C++ has it advantages... but on the other side Java has its advantages and they are a step higher then C/C++...
>Of course, this power comes at the cost of >complexity.
Complexity which could be spend in other places, not to make killer "operatores", figuring out more clever macros and getting more wired casts around one pointer... if you can do faster your homework there is more time for the interessting parts...
Cause Java is developed for the future it has HUGE potential to put all this hacking, rewritting, glueing, reinterfacing, rewritting called "programming" at least one tiny step further towards software development.
Cause, its:
- Skalable in Size
From Palm, Webbrowser, Applikation upto Server and the important interconectivity in between.
- Secure
The Sandbox restrictions seem to got forgoten, but thats exactly what is need for a lot of stuff nowdays to deploy basic secure applications in a browser, there is still no real alternative. Server based solutions never can do all tricks, cause good user interaction has to be programmed on client side. Well downloading and installing application or glued flash, javascript and server systems can't be the final solution, please ?
- Plattform independent
In fact it is a platform on its own. Whats missing is a Java OS (based on Linux and/or MacOs and/or Windows?) and off you go...
- Sophisticated, Huge and Clever APIs
They are getting better and better and more stable.
Try to connect to a database, do a 3D visualisation of the data and send an Email with the resulting picture... go figure in any other language with any set of API(s).
- Prospering in all directions
C/C++ is already dead a few years, it seem to have stopped at defining some cool but useless class keywords and a freaky "STL" ? On the oposite Java is not really pure Sun anymore nor IBM... its already a multifendor platform. Even Microsoft has smelled it a while ago and now tries to sneak in before it really hurts. Strange the Linux people continue flogging the dead horse, with basicly no real useable APIs for application development, trying to define there own ? A operating system is nothing without good APIs (and thats not just drag&drop and some windows, but also Printing, Audio, Video, 3D, Registry, Databases, Plugins, Components), what is missing for Linux, Java already has it ? But Unix has to be C right ?
- Skalable in Speed
Java VM is complete abstract, the language and the API (the main part of Java) are not realy tied to the VM... it could be redefined any time and the current VM is hopefully not the last in compiler technology, especially Software/Hardware hybrids (like Cruso) can make a lot more out of it... well a lot more than out of the 25 year old intel instruction set.
And plug in a second CPU and Java will make instant use of it... in my opinion there would be options to make JAVA CPUs that would outperforme every now available CPU by using multithread architekture in a single PU. Classic single CPU speed will get less scalable and to get out of the MHz drain multi instruction computing has to become more aware... guess which language has one of the best and most reliable multithreading programming architecture... even novices know how to programm a thread in Java... ever written more than one in C++ ? And got it synchronised succesfull ?
- Software Design
There are so many C/C++ design pitfalls (Header and Implementation seperation, Pointers, the quer STL, Operator overloading, Preprocessor and Macros overuse) that make software development a pain in the ass. Java has building blocks of software development and is extended only with features that are necessary and make sense.
- Complexity
Java has the power and the clearness to write and maintain applications off higher complexity. In my opinion many software projects (C/C++) are doomed to crash soon or later cause of there unmanagable complexity (the version 4.0 burn out;))... if the core concept of the project is not good it will wash out and get riddled... Java has a good core concept and at least the programmer is not responsible to rewrite basic functions if there is a new OS or bullshit API that thinks it has to reinvent the well more round.
- Its allready #1 for a lot of things...
I know more people starting in Java than in C/C++. It is the language that is teached in scools and universities... cause one can get things done and not has to write a suitable String class nor learn the wired secrets of some oldscool APIs to popup a window.
something will overtake on the left lain... watch it fly by !
Not that it will knock C/C++ from the street... but who is driving Assembler these days ?
Yeah. Java is not just the language anymore to write some cute applets that can be run in a web browser.
IT IS:
- a 99% clean object orientated language - a huge standarized object API for applications - scalable to run in web browsers, palm tops, user applications and on the server side - as platform (CPU) independet as it technical can get - not only SUN but: IBM, HP, SGI, Linux, Oracle, Apple, (and even a bit Microsoft) that are at least those I can figure out...
It will or should strike back, because:
- It is the only object API that has the same richnes and functionality as the Win32 (MFC) API for applications
- the Java VMs will get faster, at least there is a lot of potential, just have a look at the multithread possibilities. Running application truely parallel on thread basis on multi instruction execution. Compilitaion of java classes to machine code on install time, etc.
- It is platform independet without any draw backs, beside speed, but what should my 1Ghz 256 MB PC do with all the processor time, if not running more sophisticated, more stable and more flexible applications then just doing the job a 1/10 second faster, but bang out with a null pointer exception because one used a feature that was forgoten to be beta tested.
- It can standarize things that are not standarized yet for programming, at least for the non Win32 world. As for example multimedia APIs, 3D APIs, component model, database interfaces, in fact Java is used a lot in interface programming where it not can be seen directly, but it is there: for example VRML Authoring Interface, inside Oracle database triggers, Web Server CGI "Servlet" programs
- It is designed for the future and can handle the increased complexity of future applications, net centered, for distributed and portable computers
- Sophisticated development tools are comming, have a look at AnyJ, JBuilder or VisualAge
- And it is a pleasure to program:)
Sorry, I know no X application that really has the features and interoperability (data exchange, drag&drop and ease of use) of a good windows/MAC application.
But solid Win32 and X applications are, in my opinion, a pain to program and are not portable.
For Unix application, the X toolkits and X desktop are seeming to go no where, at least from my view, what is KDE and Gnome in comparison with the windows application features ? What consumer applications are there ? And why can't they have a common look and feel ? Or even have a plugable look&feel as the Java window toolkits ?
So in my opinion Linux and JAVA would fit together nicely. A solid command line OS with basic device operations for GFX and hardware devices, with a good scalability on different CPUs and hardware, and Java for sophisticated platfrom independent applications, with the hardware abstraction possiblities of the Java VM.
Maybe it could rock the windows boat, or even make Windows look more as another OS to run Java applications, and not the only OS with the full range of consumer applications.
In my opinion applications are the key to the users not the technical or political correctnes.
I hope more Linux Gurus will support Java. It has allready some features Linux is currently missing.
Imagine to run the same word processor / web browser application on your Intel or on a quad Alpha processor Linux. Without addapting the source(only think of the big/little endian and 32/64 bit issues)... exchanging data between applications on different platforms, distributed... and have a web client that runs on your palm top to read your documents stored on your home machine.
For copyleft, open source for Java would be a great thing, it is highly reusable on source and in binary form and well documented and more clear than these #ifdef, operator overloaded sources.
The only thing that is missing from SUN are very stable reference implementations of their APIs, they look good but they are not very solid implemented, yet ? And a state of the art and fast Java VM Linux implementation.... to get it going...
A ISO "open source" standard certificate for Java would also be very nice.
Well only time will tell, but in my opinion it looks more promising from a technical view point for Linux and Java then it looks for the chaotic and over stretcht Win32 API.
Slashdot Mirror
User your drive letters!
"subst" working since MS-DOS 3.0
... would this be a better world?
:)
iDon't think so
1. Java enforces Exception handling, so it is not a design failure, maybe a bug and not listed anywhere...
.H/.C concept is one of the bullshities concepts in the realms of programing.
... interfaces describe callback mechanisms, nothing more.
2. That is can't be a design failure either, it sounds like a bug, and not realy critical, cause it only helps code design is not a very critical keyword.
3. But necessary, one are classes the other are generic types, how should they be handled otherwise ?
4. Basicly it is runtime typed, thats indeed one of the anoying points, but a good linker tool could easily overcome the problem.
5. ??? Works fine for me. Which part do you mean ? It is one of the most thread safe API i saw until now
6. AWT is a just a basic window library, but Swing is very sophisticated... well compare whats on the other side... well if Swing Sux, then please i would like to hear the swear words that could possible describes MFC or even Motif ?
7. Unsafe Casts in Java ??? Well it has dynamic Type checking, you can not call anything which signatures does not fit on runtime. See 3.
8. Buahaha... the
9. Not at all, it leads to clean OO Concepts and safes from a lot of pittfalls in larger class hierachies, one of the strange things is that C++ developers always want to inherite from as many classes they possibly can, with no advantage by doing so and generating big unmantainable class structures
10. Why ? It cleans up the mess and makes browsing code easier.
- Scalable in Size
... fast but never secure.
.LIBs, programms and APIs you write your programs are, even so little details as machine endian or 32/64 bit CPU are not handled probably ... when speaking about Java, one only has to port the Java API to the new platform or CPU, there is the total freedom of porting it to any hardware architekture ... the information of a java programm is in the Class structure and usage of it not in the lines of code or the assembler instruction set.
;)
...
... if you can do faster your homework there is more time for the interessting parts...
>... how is that "better" than C/C++?
C/C++ is the language, what can you do with it without a API ? Nothing, so there is nothing to scale on C/C++.
I meant the Java API is scalable.
- Secure
>Firstly, in a proper OS, language level security >isn't needed. Secondly, that lack of security in >C and C++ makes them more powerful.
Simple, programs than run for example in a browser are running on YOUR machine and can do anything they want (from sending you private documents over the internet upto installing the DOS attack bot). The Java API has is scalabe and has configurable securtiy mechanisms to example switch off file support in its API. Or limit network access.... no OS can really do that right now.
And C/C++ has not even an unsecure API, but that makes it not more powerfull.
- Plattform independent
>No, Java only runs on the Java platform, which >happens to be emulated on many other platforms.
Well the Java API is platform independent then. Try to write a programm that should run on Linux and Windows and MacOS, guess what you have to write... your own platform API. Java has already done that.
>If we compiled C or C++ for the Java >environment, it'd be platform independent as >well, and you could have all those security >things, too.
As soon as you have pointers to memory you can do(with the proper know how) anything you want
>- Prospering in all directions
>You mean that Java is an unfinished, changing >languages, rather than a fixed and stable >language? This is a good thing?
Ok, not in first glance, true.
But on the second it still has evolution and the APIs are expanding and get more complete and powerfull. C/C++ has no APIs at all. Or is the stdlib matching the needs of today in any way ?
>And btw, you don't have to use every feature a >language has to offer.
Exactly, so new Java features are a bonus.
- Skalable in Speed
>Now that's interesting. Have a link about >automatic use of extra processors? Uh... Intel >CPUs are not the only possible target for C/C++ >compilers!
... and CPU speed is the most important issue right ?
Mean the java compiled classes have enough info to get recompiled, that is what for example JIT compilers do.
C/C++ is not just for Intel CPUs but the
Links, sorry not at hand... but Java makes Intel CPUs one out of many, cause they are not tied to it in any way.. even the Java VM introduces features that allow complete new CPU architectures, as for example multithreading CPUs, hardware exception handling, different instruction sets, runtime optimization of code etc... it is the fastest way out of the limited x86 instruction set and architekture.
>- Software Design
>These issues are all related to the programmer. >Personally, I like pointers. Yeah, you have to >be careful with them, but wreckless programming >is probably a bad idea anyway.
Ever worked with more than 1 person on a project over longer time ?
Open sources projects i saw are horrible in maintance and coding styles, cause everybody introduces there own style, knows more macro or operater overloading and compiler tricks... it is just not mantainable. I mean not even an unsigned 32 bit integer is standarised: unsigned, DWORD, TU32, uint32, ulong, etc.
>There is no rule that says you have to use the >STL.
Which makes C/C++ has not even its standariesed collection classes.
>- Complexity
>Java is not immune. Java is not a magic bullet.
Not the magic bullet. But lot of common sense.
>Wait until many Java spplications are at version >4.0 and get back to me. C++ gives programmers >the freedom to write clean or messy.
Exactly. But 2 clean talking C++ people still can often not understand each other
>Well, you don't have to write your own string >class. Nothing's to stop you from using the >string class that comes with your libraries
>(like, say CString), and nothing's to stop you >from using C-style string functions.
Yeah, but would it be nice to have a string class that is already powerfull enought to handle everything one want possible ever do with a String (including Unicode, and Kanji strings) ? And not go figuring everytime one has to incoperate a external lib what to heck do with the strings...
>C++ is more flexible than Java because is locked >in to the Java Environment, the Java Libraries, >etc.
Sure there are places where C/C++ has it advantages... but on the other side Java has its advantages and they are a step higher then C/C++
>Of course, this power comes at the cost of >complexity.
Complexity which could be spend in other places, not to make killer "operatores", figuring out more clever macros and getting more wired casts around one pointer
Cause Java is developed for the future it has HUGE potential to put all this hacking, rewritting, glueing, reinterfacing, rewritting called "programming" at least one tiny step further towards software development.
... go figure in any other language with any set of API(s).
... it could be redefined any time and the current VM is hopefully not the last in compiler technology, especially Software/Hardware hybrids (like Cruso) can make a lot more out of it... well a lot more than out of the 25 year old intel instruction set.
;)) ... if the core concept of the project is not good it will wash out and get riddled... Java has a good core concept and at least the programmer is not responsible to rewrite basic functions if there is a new OS or bullshit API that thinks it has to reinvent the well more round.
... watch it fly by !
Cause, its:
- Skalable in Size
From Palm, Webbrowser, Applikation upto Server and the important interconectivity in between.
- Secure
The Sandbox restrictions seem to got forgoten, but thats exactly what is need for a lot of stuff nowdays to deploy basic secure applications in a browser, there is still no real alternative. Server based solutions never can do all tricks, cause good user interaction has to be programmed on client side. Well downloading and installing application or glued flash, javascript and server systems can't be the final solution, please ?
- Plattform independent
In fact it is a platform on its own. Whats missing is a Java OS (based on Linux and/or MacOs and/or Windows?) and off you go...
- Sophisticated, Huge and Clever APIs
They are getting better and better and more stable.
Try to connect to a database, do a 3D visualisation of the data and send an Email with the resulting picture
- Prospering in all directions
C/C++ is already dead a few years, it seem to have stopped at defining some cool but useless class keywords and a freaky "STL" ? On the oposite Java is not really pure Sun anymore nor IBM... its already a multifendor platform. Even Microsoft has smelled it a while ago and now tries to sneak in before it really hurts. Strange the Linux people continue flogging the dead horse, with basicly no real useable APIs for application development, trying to define there own ? A operating system is nothing without good APIs (and thats not just drag&drop and some windows, but also Printing, Audio, Video, 3D, Registry, Databases, Plugins, Components), what is missing for Linux, Java already has it ? But Unix has to be C right ?
- Skalable in Speed
Java VM is complete abstract, the language and the API (the main part of Java) are not realy tied to the VM
And plug in a second CPU and Java will make instant use of it... in my opinion there would be options to make JAVA CPUs that would outperforme every now available CPU by using multithread architekture in a single PU. Classic single CPU speed will get less scalable and to get out of the MHz drain multi instruction computing has to become more aware... guess which language has one of the best and most reliable multithreading programming architecture... even novices know how to programm a thread in Java... ever written more than one in C++ ? And got it synchronised succesfull ?
- Software Design
There are so many C/C++ design pitfalls (Header and Implementation seperation, Pointers, the quer STL, Operator overloading, Preprocessor and Macros overuse) that make software development a pain in the ass. Java has building blocks of software development and is extended only with features that are necessary and make sense.
- Complexity
Java has the power and the clearness to write and maintain applications off higher complexity. In my opinion many software projects (C/C++) are doomed to crash soon or later cause of there unmanagable complexity (the version 4.0 burn out
- Its allready #1 for a lot of things...
I know more people starting in Java than in C/C++. It is the language that is teached in scools and universities... cause one can get things done and not has to write a suitable String class nor learn the wired secrets of some oldscool APIs to popup a window.
something will overtake on the left lain
Not that it will knock C/C++ from the street... but who is driving Assembler these days ?
Yeah. Java is not just the language anymore to write some cute applets that can be run in a web browser.
:)
... exchanging data between applications on different platforms, distributed... and have a web client that runs on your palm top to read your documents stored on your home machine.
IT IS:
- a 99% clean object orientated language
- a huge standarized object API for applications
- scalable to run in web browsers, palm tops, user applications and on the server side
- as platform (CPU) independet as it technical can get
- not only SUN but: IBM, HP, SGI, Linux, Oracle, Apple, (and even a bit Microsoft) that are at least those I can figure out...
It will or should strike back, because:
- It is the only object API that has the same richnes and functionality as the Win32 (MFC) API for applications
- the Java VMs will get faster, at least there is a lot of potential, just have a look at the multithread possibilities. Running application truely parallel on thread basis on multi instruction execution. Compilitaion of java classes to machine code on install time, etc.
- It is platform independet without any draw backs, beside speed, but what should my 1Ghz 256 MB PC do with all the processor time, if not running more sophisticated, more stable and more flexible applications then just doing the job a 1/10 second faster, but bang out with a null pointer exception because one used a feature that was forgoten to be beta tested.
- It can standarize things that are not standarized yet for programming, at least for the non Win32 world. As for example multimedia APIs, 3D APIs, component model, database interfaces, in fact Java is used a lot in interface programming where it not can be seen directly, but it is there: for example VRML Authoring Interface, inside Oracle database triggers, Web Server CGI "Servlet" programs
- It is designed for the future and can handle the increased complexity of future applications, net centered, for distributed and portable computers
- Sophisticated development tools are comming, have a look at AnyJ, JBuilder or VisualAge
- And it is a pleasure to program
Sorry, I know no X application that really has the features and interoperability (data exchange, drag&drop and ease of use) of a good windows/MAC application.
But solid Win32 and X applications are, in my opinion, a pain to program and are not portable.
For Unix application, the X toolkits and X desktop are seeming to go no where, at least from my view, what is KDE and Gnome in comparison with the windows application features ? What consumer applications are there ? And why can't they have a common look and feel ? Or even have a plugable look&feel as the Java window toolkits ?
So in my opinion Linux and JAVA would fit together nicely. A solid command line OS with basic device operations for GFX and hardware devices, with a good scalability on different CPUs and hardware, and Java for sophisticated platfrom independent applications, with the hardware abstraction possiblities of the Java VM.
Maybe it could rock the windows boat, or even make Windows look more as another OS to run Java applications, and not the only OS with the full range of consumer applications.
In my opinion applications are the key to the users not the technical or political correctnes.
I hope more Linux Gurus will support Java. It has allready some features Linux is currently missing.
Imagine to run the same word processor / web browser application on your Intel or on a quad Alpha processor Linux. Without addapting the source(only think of the big/little endian and 32/64 bit issues)
For copyleft, open source for Java would be a great thing, it is highly reusable on source and in binary form and well documented and more clear than these #ifdef, operator overloaded sources.
The only thing that is missing from SUN are very stable reference implementations of their APIs, they look good but they are not very solid implemented, yet ? And a state of the art and fast Java VM Linux implementation.... to get it going...
A ISO "open source" standard certificate for Java would also be very nice.
Well only time will tell, but in my opinion it looks more promising from a technical view point for Linux and Java then it looks for the chaotic and over stretcht Win32 API.
... an application programmers view