It's pretty common to challenge authority in America in various ways. There were other ways they could have gone about it. Instead of complying with a lawful order as they had in the past, this time they did it in an ill considered way and now the joke is on their customers. Ha ha?
By your line of thinking there actually is: the government of the People's Republic of China. You should note that they managed to kill about 65,000,000 people. They actually live up to that sort of reputation even if they have been trying to take the edges off lately (and the reforms may not stick). The US isn't even close to being in the same league.
Seriously though, $10 says it's a U.S. citizen unhappy with D.C. dysfunction. The terrorists wouldn't waste their bullets. They're home watching CSPAN with a bowl of popcorn and thinking "Mission Accomplished".
No, the terrorist that was most recently shooting up DC is in prison now. They caught him.
Melaku, a 23-year-old naturalized U.S. citizen who was born in Ethiopia, was arrested June 17 at the cemetery. He had a backpack with four plastic bags each containing 5 pounds of ammonium nitrate, material commonly used in homemade explosives. He also had numerous 9 mm spent shell casings; black paint and a notebook with Arabic statements mentioning al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the Taliban and the "Path to Jihad."...
Melaku admitted to five shootings with a legally owned handgun at military buildings in Northern Virginia between October 17 and November 2 of 2010. He said he attacked the Pentagon, Marine and Coast Guard recruiting offices and he twice fired at the National Museum of the Marine Corps.
They also previously caught the Beltway snipers. There are some interesting things there too. -- The Beltway Snipers' Motives
You're still dancing around the fact that Lavabit could have provided the metadata for just one user, as requested, but didn't. That would not have revealed the keys for everybody.
And you wouldn't complain about a SWAT team, right? A SWAT team would make no sense, wouldn't get them what they asked for, and would generate news reports that could defeat the purpose of the investigation. What they really wanted was pretty obviously what they originally asked for. But hey, the Truth be damned!
Yes, how dare the impudent bastards attempt to protect their customers from illegal surveillance!
The problem is that the law says what the investigators wanted in this case was legal, and it appears that the Supreme Court has previously said was legal. If you want to claim that it was "illegal surveillance," you're going to have to come up with some interesting magic since it apparently was for investigation of an actual specific crime.
They could have just complied with the original demand for metadata for one user, which they admit they could have done, but didn't do. It is straight forward non-compliance with a legal order. The result was the order to produce the SSL keys.
...when the fact emerge that they were defying court orders.
...when the fact emerge that they were defying [Secret, Unaccountable, Undemocratic] court orders.
The FISA courts were created by Congress, the same as any other Federal court besides the Supreme Court. The FISA court is accountable to both its appeal court and the Supreme Court like other Federal Courts, and the Judges can be removed by Congress as can other Judges. In fact, the Judges on the FISA court are ordinary Federal judges that rotate through the FISA court from other Federal courts. It isn't uncommon for Court orders to be sealed during investigations, especially when investigating matters involving classified information. Your point is pretty much nonsense.
As to the Nazi "Special Courts," that is a nonsense comparison. The primary purpose of the FISA court is to provide a dedicated court for the consideration of applications for warrants involving national security surveillance, not to try suspects.
Obviously the operators of the Cold Fjord account...
I thought these and similar laws (wiretap, etc) were only allowed to act upon the entities being investigated and for which the warranty was issued. And it sounds like Lavabit tried to keep the scope narrowed to the one person being investigated, but the FBI wanted more.
The Feds originally just wanted metadata for one account, which Lavabit could have provided. They didn't comply with court orders so now they are facing the consequences.
Lavabit shut down. Their other customers have lost service. They are almost certainly going to lose in court. I doubt many in the public will support them when the fact emerge that they were defying court orders.
If you read the article, they demanded the SSL key since Lavabit did not comply with the earlier order. All the Feds originally wanted was metadata for one user. Lavabit could have provided that, but refused. The prosecutors asked they be held in contempt of court, and then asked for the SSL keys. This is on Lavabit.
“The representative of Lavabit indicated that Lavabit had the technical capability to decrypt the information, but that Lavabit did not want to ‘defeat [its] own system,’” the government complained.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Theresa Buchanan immediately ordered Lavabit to comply, threatening Levison with criminal contempt — which could have potentially put him in jail.
By July 9, Lavabit still hadn’t defeated its security for the government, and prosecutors asked for a summons to be served for Lavabit, and founder Ladar Levison, to be held in contempt “for its disobedience and resistance to these lawful orders.”
A week later, prosecutors upped the ante and obtained the search warrant demanding “all information necessary to decrypt communications sent to or from the Lavabit e-mail account [redacted] including encryption keys and SSL keys.”
OK, lets talk about December 7th. In 1941 there were far more people killed by automobiles, ~ 13x, than were killed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. That is before we get into the large numbers killed by disease. By your thinking the US should never have gone to war against Japan, and yet it did. How do you explain that? Is it possible that there is a flaw in your reasoning regarding national security?
Slashdot Mirror
It's pretty common to challenge authority in America in various ways. There were other ways they could have gone about it. Instead of complying with a lawful order as they had in the past, this time they did it in an ill considered way and now the joke is on their customers. Ha ha?
Note that is the median income, not the mean, because a relatively few, very rich people skew the mean by a long way
So make it a trimmed mean. Drop the top and bottom 2.5% and calculate from there.
Oh, that's right! Silly me.... thanks for the reminder! ;)
By your line of thinking there actually is: the government of the People's Republic of China. You should note that they managed to kill about 65,000,000 people. They actually live up to that sort of reputation even if they have been trying to take the edges off lately (and the reforms may not stick). The US isn't even close to being in the same league.
No, he was just mentally ill. I'm unaware of any ideological component to it. I'm open to being informed though. Your point is worth considering.
Apparently the police office was injured by the barrier.
Nah, there were no comments, you just got "fox rolled."
Seriously though, $10 says it's a U.S. citizen unhappy with D.C. dysfunction. The terrorists wouldn't waste their bullets. They're home watching CSPAN with a bowl of popcorn and thinking "Mission Accomplished".
No, the terrorist that was most recently shooting up DC is in prison now. They caught him.
Former Marine reservist pleads guilty in Pentagon shooting incident
Melaku, a 23-year-old naturalized U.S. citizen who was born in Ethiopia, was arrested June 17 at the cemetery. He had a backpack with four plastic bags each containing 5 pounds of ammonium nitrate, material commonly used in homemade explosives. He also had numerous 9 mm spent shell casings; black paint and a notebook with Arabic statements mentioning al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the Taliban and the "Path to Jihad." ...
Melaku admitted to five shootings with a legally owned handgun at military buildings in Northern Virginia between October 17 and November 2 of 2010. He said he attacked the Pentagon, Marine and Coast Guard recruiting offices and he twice fired at the National Museum of the Marine Corps.
They also previously caught the Beltway snipers. There are some interesting things there too. -- The Beltway Snipers' Motives
On that we can agree.
Lavabit being "in contempt" regarding the first request in no way justifies the second.
There are similar patterns in the law.
You don't pay your property tax.
Ignore warning letter.
Ignore second warning letter.
Property seized.
You're still dancing around the fact that Lavabit could have provided the metadata for just one user, as requested, but didn't. That would not have revealed the keys for everybody.
And you wouldn't complain about a SWAT team, right? A SWAT team would make no sense, wouldn't get them what they asked for, and would generate news reports that could defeat the purpose of the investigation. What they really wanted was pretty obviously what they originally asked for. But hey, the Truth be damned!
As is too common, the posts from the "FriendlyLurker" are neither.
Yes, how dare the impudent bastards attempt to protect their customers from illegal surveillance!
The problem is that the law says what the investigators wanted in this case was legal, and it appears that the Supreme Court has previously said was legal. If you want to claim that it was "illegal surveillance," you're going to have to come up with some interesting magic since it apparently was for investigation of an actual specific crime.
They could have just complied with the original demand for metadata for one user, which they admit they could have done, but didn't do. It is straight forward non-compliance with a legal order. The result was the order to produce the SSL keys.
...when the fact emerge that they were defying court orders.
...when the fact emerge that they were defying [Secret, Unaccountable, Undemocratic] court orders.
The FISA courts were created by Congress, the same as any other Federal court besides the Supreme Court. The FISA court is accountable to both its appeal court and the Supreme Court like other Federal Courts, and the Judges can be removed by Congress as can other Judges. In fact, the Judges on the FISA court are ordinary Federal judges that rotate through the FISA court from other Federal courts. It isn't uncommon for Court orders to be sealed during investigations, especially when investigating matters involving classified information. Your point is pretty much nonsense.
As to the Nazi "Special Courts," that is a nonsense comparison. The primary purpose of the FISA court is to provide a dedicated court for the consideration of applications for warrants involving national security surveillance, not to try suspects.
Obviously the operators of the Cold Fjord account ...
That trolling is tedious.
I thought these and similar laws (wiretap, etc) were only allowed to act upon the entities being investigated and for which the warranty was issued. And it sounds like Lavabit tried to keep the scope narrowed to the one person being investigated, but the FBI wanted more.
The Feds originally just wanted metadata for one account, which Lavabit could have provided. They didn't comply with court orders so now they are facing the consequences.
The other possibility is that your opinion is contrary to settled law.
Lavabit shut down. Their other customers have lost service. They are almost certainly going to lose in court. I doubt many in the public will support them when the fact emerge that they were defying court orders.
Do you "stick it to the man" by defying court orders with any frequency? If not, I have another nomination for who is "naïve."
How is this legal? How do you get a warrant that broad? Are fishing expeditions now allowed by law enforcement?
If you read TFA you'll see that it came about because Lavabit did not comply with the previous order. There is little mystery about it.
If you read the article, they demanded the SSL key since Lavabit did not comply with the earlier order. All the Feds originally wanted was metadata for one user. Lavabit could have provided that, but refused. The prosecutors asked they be held in contempt of court, and then asked for the SSL keys. This is on Lavabit.
Edward Snowden’s E-Mail Provider Defied FBI Demands to Turn Over Crypto Keys, Documents Show
“The representative of Lavabit indicated that Lavabit had the technical capability to decrypt the information, but that Lavabit did not want to ‘defeat [its] own system,’” the government complained.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Theresa Buchanan immediately ordered Lavabit to comply, threatening Levison with criminal contempt — which could have potentially put him in jail.
By July 9, Lavabit still hadn’t defeated its security for the government, and prosecutors asked for a summons to be served for Lavabit, and founder Ladar Levison, to be held in contempt “for its disobedience and resistance to these lawful orders.”
A week later, prosecutors upped the ante and obtained the search warrant demanding “all information necessary to decrypt communications sent to or from the Lavabit e-mail account [redacted] including encryption keys and SSL keys.”
if the FBI can force Lavabit to hand over their SSL key or face shutdown, they can do it to anyone."
With a court order, yes. Is the situation really different anywhere else?
You said I don't want a free country. Prove it.
OK, lets talk about December 7th. In 1941 there were far more people killed by automobiles, ~ 13x, than were killed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. That is before we get into the large numbers killed by disease. By your thinking the US should never have gone to war against Japan, and yet it did. How do you explain that? Is it possible that there is a flaw in your reasoning regarding national security?