Oh definitely. It really doesn't help that that's actually a quote from the Koran. It almost makes me think that all Muslims are inherently bigoted assholes.
But then again, it doesn't take much work to dig up equally appalling crap in the Jewish/Christian Torah/Bible. Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 comes to mind, which explicitly calls for genocide. However, since that passage doesn't make me think that all Jews and Christians are inherently bigoted assholes, I figured I'd extend that same courtesy to the Muslims and their own holy book. If we can overlook the Jews' and Christians' unpleasant shit, surely we can overlook the Muslims' too.
That being said, those Hamas guys are responsible for having committed some truly horrifying atrocities. I'm not talking about firing unguided rockets northward, occasionally striking something of value (after all, what the fuck other options do they have, regarding resistance?). I'm not talking about capturing Israeli soldiers alive (this is what happens in war; would you prefer they killed them first?). I'm talking about indoctrinating Palestinian children with absurd caricatures of Jews to ensure that the conflict can rage on for another generation. I'm talking about gunning down innocent Palestinian families who have no interest in being martyred. Hamas does plenty of despicable stuff (as does Israel). We don't need to twist some Mohammed quotes from their charter to frame them as some kind of madmen (any more than we need to absurdly claim that Israel wants high civilian casualties among the Palestinians). Neither side has any moral high ground to speak of (no claims of moral equivalence here, though), so let's stop pointing fingers to yell "but look at what they are doing!"
I'm not an expert, so I'm just going by Wikipedia. Wikipedia says:
In 1994, Israel granted the right of self-governance to Gaza through the Palestinian Authority.
Wow, 20 years ago. And yet even today, the government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own border crossings. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own territorial waters. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own airspace. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own RF spectrum. That's Gaza, but shit, let's not forget, even the government of the West Bank isn't sovereign, instead existing only as far as Israel allows. The PA government exercises sovereignty over 3% of the West Bank. In Gaza, this figure is 0%.
Hamas's charter prominently features a quote from Mohammed about this (and specificially calling for death to Jews).
I contested this claim in detail here. At the risk of seeming pedantic, no, the Hamas charter calls for violent reclamation of Muslim holy sites and land that was consecrated to Allah/Muslims. If we can be precise with our words, the Hamas charter does not specifically call for death to Jews. It, at best, implies that the killing of Jews will likely be required to recapture the territory in question. Both sides in this conflict are committing enough atrocities that there's really no need to make up falsehoods to cast them in a bad light. Your claim that Hamas wants nothing more than "death to Jews" is particularly insidious because it dehumanizes Palestinians and promotes or justifies their current and continuing oppression.
But even if I accepted that Gaza has very real grievances that are worthy of a state of war, I do not condone the tactics used by Hamas.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean you need to turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Israel.
I don't see how Israel can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual war with Gaza.
Agreed, but I also don't see how Gaza can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual subjugation by Israel.
My point is that both sides are wrong. We need to stop focusing on why the "other" side is "more wrong" and accept that, quite simply, both sides are wrong. Until we can do that, we're wasting time and lives.
Really? I'll be the first to admit ignorance here. I don't know much about Apple and I won't pretend otherwise. I was under the impression that Apple bought components from Samsung, TMSC, etc. Out of genuine curiosity, can you point me to an IC that Apple recently designed?
Congratulations, you have discovered the tautology. Bad news, though: dovf beat you to it. I guess now it's down to who can get to the patent office first!
Like the 13-year strategy of rocket attacks against civilian targets that Hamas has pursued in violation of international law?
This is a red-herring for two reasons.
First, your portrayal of Hamas' rocket fire is inaccurate. While it is true that various actors within Gaza have been responsible for a low but continuous level of rocket attacks into Israel for a very long time, to pin the blame on Hamas is disingenuous. This year, for example, the first Hamas rocket to be fired into Israel was launched July 7 in retaliation for the live burning of a Palestinian teenager in East Jeruslam as well as the Israeli abduction of recently-released Palestinian prisoners. It's not like Hamas just keeps firing rockets just because "Jews!", although it is clear that there are other Palestinians in Gaza who do indeed do just that. Additionally, it is unreasonable to expect Hamas to be able to effectively police Gaza if they're subject to assassination, air strikes, and periodic ground assaults by Israel.
Second, you mention civilian targets. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), Hamas does not have targeting capabilities on any of their rockets. At all. The rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israel. Hamas rockets do not target civilians, they target "North". If Israel is unhappy with this arrangement, I'm sure Hamas will be more than willing to accept delivery of rockets that do have targeting capabilities. Of course, Hamas also has the option of sitting back and doing nothing until the day that they do gain targeting capabilities. However, that's not likely to happen. In any case, it's inaccurate to claim that Hamas targets civilians with their rockets, as this is simply not possible.
I think Israel, like Hamas, has figured out that international law is largely toothless.
The Israeli civilian population is about 20% Muslim/Arab. Can you explain to me why a tunnel connecting one Palestinian area (in Gaza) with an Israeli civilian population center (that has a significant Muslim/Arab minority) would not be used/useful for smuggling?
The table is a list of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel. The first of the Hamas rockets was launched July 7. The attacks you list from earlier in the year were not conducted by Hamas. I know it can be hard to keep track of all the different parties here, but really, you could at least try.
They call for Israel's destruction without room for negotiation.
And Israel openly calls for Hamas' destruction without room for negotiation (even branding them a terrorist organization to frustrate any efforts at negotiation). What's your point?
I agree with just about all of your points. I'd just like to add one point, regarding Hamas' disinterest in a cease-fire.
Consider what Israeli popular sentiment would be like if somehow the Palestinians got the upper hand and drove all the Israelis into a 139 square mile concentration camp, blockaded them off from the rest of the world, and refused to allow the formation of any sort of sovereign government. Do you think the Israelis would be very eager to accept a cease-fire? To effectively concede that this 139 square mile shithole at the mercy of the Palestinians will be the Jewish State that they dreamed of?
That's funny. You sure do read like an apologist for Hamas here.
In the same sentence, I state my preference for the total destruction of Gaza (and consequently the irrelevance and disbanding of Hamas). Quite the apologist.
This sure looks like a value judgement and an incitement to kill Jews to me.
Please look through other Abrahamic holy books (say, the Jewish Torah or the Christian Bible, which are also frequently quoted from) and note that they also include various calls for genocide (Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 comes to mind). Is quoting this passage also a value judgement and an incitement to commit genocide?
Well, I guess you would have to label me as obtuse, because this sure as hell looks a lot like a call for genocide to me.
Indeed. For your benefit, I suggest but one of many possible ways for the objective set forth in this article to be achieved without any requirement of genocide: the Jews could leave Israel (relocating to various places in the western world), and the Arabs could take control of the abandoned Israeli territory (including the Aqsa Mosque). This may not be entirely obvious to you because you omitted the actual meat of this article by partial-quoting me.
Let me just say that from where I'm sitting, it seems that either your reading comprehension skills are lacking or you claim every part of Hamas' charter is a call for genocide independent of the actual content of the charter. I could replace the charter with a verbatim copy of Othello and you'd still be arguing that it looks like a call for genocide to you.
Your goalposts are moving. I addressed (refuted?) both of your points (Israel prevents Fatah from being able to effectively police their territory; the current situation is not the result of hundreds of rockets Hamas fired at Israel).
By your own timeline, the Palestinians started this.
By my own timeline (though I would argue that objective reality isn't really "my own"), Palestinians did start this. Note that "Palestinians" isn't the same thing as "Hamas", but since you're being so sloppy with your language I don't suppose you'd understand the significance of the difference.
Also by your own admission, Israel began the raids only after Hamas began shooting rockets (Again) at Israel.
I never contested the claim that the current Israeli offensive is the immediate consequence of Hamas' rocket fire. The claim I contested was that the rocket fire is what brought about this situation.
So suck it.
Indeed, continue patting yourself on the back. Your nuanced understanding of this situation has led to peace in the middle east. Congratulations, hero of the day.
On a more serious note, ignorant cheerleaders such as yourself are the real reason why this problem exists today and will continue to exist for some time into the future. Instead of trying in earnest to understand both sides point of view, you focus on trying to pin blame on whichever party you're biased against. Considering that the strategy of blaming the other side hasn't been very effective in establishing peace these past few decades, I'd argue that you're a fool to continue down this path.
I have a degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering.
If you think trace layouts matter in the same sense that ICs matter, I don't know what to say. I've never seen a PCB and been like "Whoa, that's some groundbreaking work there! This changes everything!"
Perhaps it's a terrible translation from Arabic, but I take this passage to imply violent conflict between Muslims and Jews in which the Muslims are to come out victorious. Based on my understanding of history, there is little reason to equate violent conflict with genocide.
I'n not the one who left you looking "like some Palestinian-supporter", you took care of that nicely on your own
Reading comprehension fail. Let me quote myself: "Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter". The subject: me. The predicate: resorting. Translation to a level of language that you're capable of understanding: I never said you left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, so you don't need to deny a non-existent accusation.
Aside from that, I see you've entirely ignored the content of my post. You're still clinging to your "Israel is the best, Hamas need to die" ideology (with the notable exception of criticizing Israel for the power plant attack), focusing on providing more evidence of why Hamas are not the "good guys". Indeed, resolving this is a nice dream. Are you suggesting that your approach of embracing the conflict and working to ensure its continuation is preferable?
Tunnels with secret entrances and exits, where e.g. the exit is less than a kilometre from a kindergarten, may have multiple uses but are primarily useful for attack. As such, the Israelis will not tolerate their existence and will destroy all such tunnels. IMHO they are right to do this.
Totally agree.
Also, it is a tragedy that Hamas allocated tens of millions of dollars worth of resources to these tunnels, when they could have been allocating resources to help the people of Gaza.
Totally disagree. That's no different than Palestinians in Gaza talking about how it is a tragedy that the US Government allocates vast sums of money to military aid packages for Israel, when they could have been allocating these resources to destroying Israel instead. Who are you to speak for the people of Gaza? How do you know that they would not rather see retribution against Israel instead of some creature comforts for themselves?
As for the tragedy of the greenhouses...
I never called it a tragedy, but nonetheless.... I don't take the position that Israel should have left sufficient soldiers inside Gaza to guard the greenhouses. I don't blame Israel for the destruction of the greenhouses. I'm merely countering the claim that there was any sort of "gift" of greenhouses, in practice. If I "gift" you $1M but send it as cash via uninsured US Postal Service and you never get it because it's stolen en route, can I really say you received any sort of gift from me? Anyway, to me, any mention of greenhouses is a canary. The greenhouses are overwhelmingly brought up by disingenuous or uninformed people trying to portray the Palestinians as savages that would cut off their noses to spite their faces (destroy the greenhouses simply because they were from the Jews). I note that you didn't bring it up in that way, which is refreshing. However, I caution you against mentioning it to supporters of Palestine or independents, as usually it causes people to tune out and dismiss the speaker as a loon (somewhat like when people bring up Jews drinking the blood of children, etc.)
When the Jews/Christians quote Yahweh/God as having issued a commandment to commit genocide against the Hittites, the Amorites, etc., in their Torah/Bible (Deuteronomy 20 : 16-18), they offer Yahweh's/God's view as that of an authority. By your logic, Jews and Christians join the Muslims in supporting genocide.
You're saying followers of all Abrahamic faiths support genocide, but I'm the moron. Fancy that.
Yes, conveniently I used the very link you provided me with. If you wanted me to go back to 2001, you shouldn't have linked to a list of rocket attacks in 2014.
Two can play at this disingenuous game. Conveniently you don't count prior years. Since 1895, Jews have come to control 8522 square miles of Palestinian land in the Middle East. Israel has frequently violated international laws of war by using white phosphorous indiscriminately in civilian populated areas. Israelis have fought several wars of aggression to continue their state's expansion.
Did you think Israeli (or pre-1948, Zionist) takeover of Palestinian land started this year? I only link to a few of the atrocities committed by Israel, but each of my links can direct you to further information on Israeli violence.
Israel is so proud of their illegal expansion that they unveiled a plan to annex the remainder of Palestine.
See? See how intentionally being a dick can turn civil discourse into a pissing contest? See how digging your heels in and refusing to be objective can turn a reasonable person into a raging asshole? Maybe next time you'll think twice before embracing a disingenuous argument. I won't hold my breath, though.
Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, much like you come across as an Israel-supporter. That means nothing productive can come of this discussion. In my own defense, I can point you to my extensive posting history today which I hope shows that I'm only here to encourage people to set aside their preconceptions and approach the issue from an objective point of view without instinctively seeking out to blame one party or the other for "starting it" or "being responsible". In the end, it doesn't fucking matter who's responsible for the death and destruction we see in the news. What I'm more interested in is who will be responsible for setting aside generations of prejudices to actually put this shit behind us and move forward into a new era of peace.
I have seen the same news reports, and a lack of the same news reports. Indeed, I have no proof that the tunnels on the Israeli side were used for smuggling. However, I do know that the blockade has created a huge demand for cross-border smuggling. I also know that the supply of cross-border tunnels has decreased significantly due to action taken on the Egyptian side. I also know that no significant changes have occurred within Gaza to decrease demand for cross-border smuggling. I'm postulating that the tunnels on the Israeli side are suitable for smuggling (albeit less so than the ones on the Egypt side were, since it's much easier to procure illegal arms in Egypt than in Israel), and therefore are most likely being used for such purposes as well. If you feel that the closure of the Egyptian side tunnels has eliminated the demand for smuggled goods in Gaza, or you feel that the Israeli side tunnels are unsuitable for any such purpose, I'm open to hearing your argument. Otherwise, even in the absence of any direct evidence, I will maintain that it is overwhelmingly likely that these tunnels are being used not only for attacks into Israel but also to facilitate cross-border smuggling. You're entitled to disagree, as this is merely conjecture, without providing any evidence. However, in the absence of evidence (and we do have an absence of unbiased evidence regarding these tunnels), I feel that the most reasonable position is the one that acknowledges the incompleteness of information and doesn't insist on absolutes (like the claims that these tunnels' sole purpose was to attack Israel and nothing else). Reality is very rarely so black-and-white, and large infrastructure projects are rarely single-use (even if they are initially intended as such).
And for those interested, here's an alternative take on the greenhouses.
Are we talking "design" as in which logic gates go in which circuit, or are we talking "design" as in rounded corners? Because I thought Apple doesn't do IC design.
Holy fuck I wish I could un-post this comment. I didn't realize it would attract such attention from fans of Apple Computer.
While not an Apple customer myself, I didn't intend this as some sort of Apple-bashing thread. I was merely pointing out that to me, coming from an x86 background, that seems like an astonishingly high sum to spend on any computer at a computer store. Being generally ignorant of Apple products, I didn't mean to imply that this is the cost of a typical Apple product. If you're still feeling butthurt, please s/Apple store/CompUSA/ or s/Apple store/Microcenter/.
Unless of course Apple sells servers at Apple stores. But then again, I didn't even know Apple made servers until some of these responses started rolling in.
Hi. You're mistaking me for someone who cares enough about Macs to read an entire article only to cherry pick quotes that support my position. To be honest, I glanced at the first paragraph or two, only to find a quote that unequivocally supports my position. Forgive me for citing it as such, and return to your Mac-loving ways.
You haven't provided any evidence that Hamas launched even a single rocket prior to the immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir.
Anyway, in case you're having trouble with the timeline and/or the principle of causality:
June 12, three Israeli teenage "settlers" are kidnapped and murdered in the West Bank while hitchhiking, probably by Palestinians.
July 2, a Palestinian teenager in East Jerusalem is kidnapped and burned alive by Israelis.
July 7, Hamas begins its retaliation, launching dozens (and subsequently hundreds) of rockets per day into Israel.
July 8, large scale IDF assault on Gaza.
The current situation (large scale IDF assault on Gaza) can be said to be the result of one of more of the following:
Hamas' retaliatory rocket attacks.
The abduction and immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem.
The abduction and murder of three teenage Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
Don't pretend that Hamas just woke up grumpy one day and decided to start firing off hundreds of rockets at Israel to pass the time.
Also, regarding the discrepancy between Israel's handling of the crimes committed in Israel versus Fatah's handling of the crimes committed in the West Bank (yes, Fatah, not Hamas, because the settler teens were killed in the West Bank, not Gaza)... Perhaps you're not aware of this, but while the Israeli government actually has sovereignty over Israeli territory, Fatah unfortunately does not have sovereignty over the West Bank. Perhaps if Israel were to allow a real sovereign government to exist in the West Bank, they'd have the right to expect some sort of real governance there. Since that is currently not the case, I personally am not surprised to see that a weak pseudo-government is incapable of quality police work. Are you? Or are you now saying that the moderate Fatah government is intentionally interfering with the investigation? That would be quite the extraordinary claim, one not even made by the Israelis themselves.
I know you are being sarcastic here, but seriously, what would it take to convince you that a tunnel from Gaza into Israel was intended for attacking Israel?
How about if it was actually used to attack Israel... would that be enough to convince you?
No, that wouldn't be enough to convince me. Any more than you would be convinced that the tunnels are used to smuggle essential supplies if I were to provide convincing evidence that someone walked through one with some shawarma once. Any honest person will admit that it's entirely possible and overwhelmingly likely that the tunnels serve(d) many purposes. That they were used in the commission of crimes (to Westerners, "terrorism", to Arabs, "resistance") doesn't mean that that was their sole purpose. My point is that if you're okay with calling them "terror tunnels" or "kidnapping tunnels", or arbitrarily naming them for one of their many uses, you should be equally okay with calling them "food tunnels". Of course, you don't hear people talking about the "food tunnels", because that doesn't fit the narrative that they're trying to push with their "terror tunnels". I'm pointing out dishonesty, nothing more, nothing less. I acknowledge that these tunnels were used to kill or capture Israeli soldiers, because I'm not trying to advance one side's agenda over the other's. Are you similarly willing to acknowledge that these tunnels were used for purposes that aren't quite so nefarious, or do you refuse to acknowledge reality when it fails to cast a negative light on the Palestinians?
You are seriously arguing the moral equivalence of Hamas and Israel? You are seriously saying that it's okay for Hamas to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Israel has been able to keep them from getting better weapons?
No, but it sure seems like Israel apologists are saying that it's okay for Israel to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Palestinians have been unable to police their side of the quasi-border (largely because of Israeli policy which prevents any meaningful governance by the PA). I'm merely using this faulty logic in the opposite direction, where I expected it to be quickly called out as being faulty logic. However, I suppose it's asking too much for people to realize that if it's faulty logic when used in defense of Hamas, it's equally faulty when used in defense of Israel.
Slashdot Mirror
Oh definitely. It really doesn't help that that's actually a quote from the Koran. It almost makes me think that all Muslims are inherently bigoted assholes.
But then again, it doesn't take much work to dig up equally appalling crap in the Jewish/Christian Torah/Bible. Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 comes to mind, which explicitly calls for genocide. However, since that passage doesn't make me think that all Jews and Christians are inherently bigoted assholes, I figured I'd extend that same courtesy to the Muslims and their own holy book. If we can overlook the Jews' and Christians' unpleasant shit, surely we can overlook the Muslims' too.
That being said, those Hamas guys are responsible for having committed some truly horrifying atrocities. I'm not talking about firing unguided rockets northward, occasionally striking something of value (after all, what the fuck other options do they have, regarding resistance?). I'm not talking about capturing Israeli soldiers alive (this is what happens in war; would you prefer they killed them first?). I'm talking about indoctrinating Palestinian children with absurd caricatures of Jews to ensure that the conflict can rage on for another generation. I'm talking about gunning down innocent Palestinian families who have no interest in being martyred. Hamas does plenty of despicable stuff (as does Israel). We don't need to twist some Mohammed quotes from their charter to frame them as some kind of madmen (any more than we need to absurdly claim that Israel wants high civilian casualties among the Palestinians). Neither side has any moral high ground to speak of (no claims of moral equivalence here, though), so let's stop pointing fingers to yell "but look at what they are doing!"
I'm not an expert, so I'm just going by Wikipedia. Wikipedia says:
In 1994, Israel granted the right of self-governance to Gaza through the Palestinian Authority.
Wow, 20 years ago. And yet even today, the government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own border crossings. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own territorial waters. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own airspace. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own RF spectrum. That's Gaza, but shit, let's not forget, even the government of the West Bank isn't sovereign, instead existing only as far as Israel allows. The PA government exercises sovereignty over 3% of the West Bank. In Gaza, this figure is 0%.
Hamas's charter prominently features a quote from Mohammed about this (and specificially calling for death to Jews).
I contested this claim in detail here. At the risk of seeming pedantic, no, the Hamas charter calls for violent reclamation of Muslim holy sites and land that was consecrated to Allah/Muslims. If we can be precise with our words, the Hamas charter does not specifically call for death to Jews. It, at best, implies that the killing of Jews will likely be required to recapture the territory in question. Both sides in this conflict are committing enough atrocities that there's really no need to make up falsehoods to cast them in a bad light. Your claim that Hamas wants nothing more than "death to Jews" is particularly insidious because it dehumanizes Palestinians and promotes or justifies their current and continuing oppression.
But even if I accepted that Gaza has very real grievances that are worthy of a state of war, I do not condone the tactics used by Hamas.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean you need to turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Israel.
I don't see how Israel can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual war with Gaza.
Agreed, but I also don't see how Gaza can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual subjugation by Israel.
My point is that both sides are wrong. We need to stop focusing on why the "other" side is "more wrong" and accept that, quite simply, both sides are wrong. Until we can do that, we're wasting time and lives.
Really? I'll be the first to admit ignorance here. I don't know much about Apple and I won't pretend otherwise. I was under the impression that Apple bought components from Samsung, TMSC, etc. Out of genuine curiosity, can you point me to an IC that Apple recently designed?
Congratulations, you have discovered the tautology. Bad news, though: dovf beat you to it. I guess now it's down to who can get to the patent office first!
Like the 13-year strategy of rocket attacks against civilian targets that Hamas has pursued in violation of international law?
This is a red-herring for two reasons.
First, your portrayal of Hamas' rocket fire is inaccurate. While it is true that various actors within Gaza have been responsible for a low but continuous level of rocket attacks into Israel for a very long time, to pin the blame on Hamas is disingenuous. This year, for example, the first Hamas rocket to be fired into Israel was launched July 7 in retaliation for the live burning of a Palestinian teenager in East Jeruslam as well as the Israeli abduction of recently-released Palestinian prisoners. It's not like Hamas just keeps firing rockets just because "Jews!", although it is clear that there are other Palestinians in Gaza who do indeed do just that. Additionally, it is unreasonable to expect Hamas to be able to effectively police Gaza if they're subject to assassination, air strikes, and periodic ground assaults by Israel.
Second, you mention civilian targets. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), Hamas does not have targeting capabilities on any of their rockets. At all. The rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israel. Hamas rockets do not target civilians, they target "North". If Israel is unhappy with this arrangement, I'm sure Hamas will be more than willing to accept delivery of rockets that do have targeting capabilities. Of course, Hamas also has the option of sitting back and doing nothing until the day that they do gain targeting capabilities. However, that's not likely to happen. In any case, it's inaccurate to claim that Hamas targets civilians with their rockets, as this is simply not possible.
I think Israel, like Hamas, has figured out that international law is largely toothless.
This point we can both agree on.
The Israeli civilian population is about 20% Muslim/Arab. Can you explain to me why a tunnel connecting one Palestinian area (in Gaza) with an Israeli civilian population center (that has a significant Muslim/Arab minority) would not be used/useful for smuggling?
The table is a list of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel. The first of the Hamas rockets was launched July 7. The attacks you list from earlier in the year were not conducted by Hamas. I know it can be hard to keep track of all the different parties here, but really, you could at least try.
They call for Israel's destruction without room for negotiation.
And Israel openly calls for Hamas' destruction without room for negotiation (even branding them a terrorist organization to frustrate any efforts at negotiation). What's your point?
A reaonsable response! From an AC!
I agree with just about all of your points. I'd just like to add one point, regarding Hamas' disinterest in a cease-fire.
Consider what Israeli popular sentiment would be like if somehow the Palestinians got the upper hand and drove all the Israelis into a 139 square mile concentration camp, blockaded them off from the rest of the world, and refused to allow the formation of any sort of sovereign government. Do you think the Israelis would be very eager to accept a cease-fire? To effectively concede that this 139 square mile shithole at the mercy of the Palestinians will be the Jewish State that they dreamed of?
I lolled.
That's funny. You sure do read like an apologist for Hamas here.
In the same sentence, I state my preference for the total destruction of Gaza (and consequently the irrelevance and disbanding of Hamas). Quite the apologist.
This sure looks like a value judgement and an incitement to kill Jews to me.
Please look through other Abrahamic holy books (say, the Jewish Torah or the Christian Bible, which are also frequently quoted from) and note that they also include various calls for genocide (Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 comes to mind). Is quoting this passage also a value judgement and an incitement to commit genocide?
Well, I guess you would have to label me as obtuse, because this sure as hell looks a lot like a call for genocide to me.
Indeed. For your benefit, I suggest but one of many possible ways for the objective set forth in this article to be achieved without any requirement of genocide: the Jews could leave Israel (relocating to various places in the western world), and the Arabs could take control of the abandoned Israeli territory (including the Aqsa Mosque). This may not be entirely obvious to you because you omitted the actual meat of this article by partial-quoting me.
Let me just say that from where I'm sitting, it seems that either your reading comprehension skills are lacking or you claim every part of Hamas' charter is a call for genocide independent of the actual content of the charter. I could replace the charter with a verbatim copy of Othello and you'd still be arguing that it looks like a call for genocide to you.
By your own timeline, the Palestinians started this.
By my own timeline (though I would argue that objective reality isn't really "my own"), Palestinians did start this. Note that "Palestinians" isn't the same thing as "Hamas", but since you're being so sloppy with your language I don't suppose you'd understand the significance of the difference.
Also by your own admission, Israel began the raids only after Hamas began shooting rockets (Again) at Israel.
I never contested the claim that the current Israeli offensive is the immediate consequence of Hamas' rocket fire. The claim I contested was that the rocket fire is what brought about this situation.
So suck it.
Indeed, continue patting yourself on the back. Your nuanced understanding of this situation has led to peace in the middle east. Congratulations, hero of the day.
On a more serious note, ignorant cheerleaders such as yourself are the real reason why this problem exists today and will continue to exist for some time into the future. Instead of trying in earnest to understand both sides point of view, you focus on trying to pin blame on whichever party you're biased against. Considering that the strategy of blaming the other side hasn't been very effective in establishing peace these past few decades, I'd argue that you're a fool to continue down this path.
I have a degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering.
If you think trace layouts matter in the same sense that ICs matter, I don't know what to say. I've never seen a PCB and been like "Whoa, that's some groundbreaking work there! This changes everything!"
Perhaps it's a terrible translation from Arabic, but I take this passage to imply violent conflict between Muslims and Jews in which the Muslims are to come out victorious. Based on my understanding of history, there is little reason to equate violent conflict with genocide.
I'n not the one who left you looking "like some Palestinian-supporter", you took care of that nicely on your own
Reading comprehension fail. Let me quote myself: "Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter". The subject: me. The predicate: resorting. Translation to a level of language that you're capable of understanding: I never said you left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, so you don't need to deny a non-existent accusation.
Aside from that, I see you've entirely ignored the content of my post. You're still clinging to your "Israel is the best, Hamas need to die" ideology (with the notable exception of criticizing Israel for the power plant attack), focusing on providing more evidence of why Hamas are not the "good guys". Indeed, resolving this is a nice dream. Are you suggesting that your approach of embracing the conflict and working to ensure its continuation is preferable?
Tunnels with secret entrances and exits, where e.g. the exit is less than a kilometre from a kindergarten, may have multiple uses but are primarily useful for attack. As such, the Israelis will not tolerate their existence and will destroy all such tunnels. IMHO they are right to do this.
Totally agree.
Also, it is a tragedy that Hamas allocated tens of millions of dollars worth of resources to these tunnels, when they could have been allocating resources to help the people of Gaza.
Totally disagree. That's no different than Palestinians in Gaza talking about how it is a tragedy that the US Government allocates vast sums of money to military aid packages for Israel, when they could have been allocating these resources to destroying Israel instead. Who are you to speak for the people of Gaza? How do you know that they would not rather see retribution against Israel instead of some creature comforts for themselves?
As for the tragedy of the greenhouses...
I never called it a tragedy, but nonetheless.... I don't take the position that Israel should have left sufficient soldiers inside Gaza to guard the greenhouses. I don't blame Israel for the destruction of the greenhouses. I'm merely countering the claim that there was any sort of "gift" of greenhouses, in practice. If I "gift" you $1M but send it as cash via uninsured US Postal Service and you never get it because it's stolen en route, can I really say you received any sort of gift from me? Anyway, to me, any mention of greenhouses is a canary. The greenhouses are overwhelmingly brought up by disingenuous or uninformed people trying to portray the Palestinians as savages that would cut off their noses to spite their faces (destroy the greenhouses simply because they were from the Jews). I note that you didn't bring it up in that way, which is refreshing. However, I caution you against mentioning it to supporters of Palestine or independents, as usually it causes people to tune out and dismiss the speaker as a loon (somewhat like when people bring up Jews drinking the blood of children, etc.)
When the Jews/Christians quote Yahweh/God as having issued a commandment to commit genocide against the Hittites, the Amorites, etc., in their Torah/Bible (Deuteronomy 20 : 16-18), they offer Yahweh's/God's view as that of an authority. By your logic, Jews and Christians join the Muslims in supporting genocide.
You're saying followers of all Abrahamic faiths support genocide, but I'm the moron. Fancy that.
Convenient that you don't count prior years
Yes, conveniently I used the very link you provided me with. If you wanted me to go back to 2001, you shouldn't have linked to a list of rocket attacks in 2014.
Two can play at this disingenuous game. Conveniently you don't count prior years. Since 1895, Jews have come to control 8522 square miles of Palestinian land in the Middle East. Israel has frequently violated international laws of war by using white phosphorous indiscriminately in civilian populated areas. Israelis have fought several wars of aggression to continue their state's expansion. Did you think Israeli (or pre-1948, Zionist) takeover of Palestinian land started this year? I only link to a few of the atrocities committed by Israel, but each of my links can direct you to further information on Israeli violence.
Israel is so proud of their illegal expansion that they unveiled a plan to annex the remainder of Palestine.
See? See how intentionally being a dick can turn civil discourse into a pissing contest? See how digging your heels in and refusing to be objective can turn a reasonable person into a raging asshole? Maybe next time you'll think twice before embracing a disingenuous argument. I won't hold my breath, though.
Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, much like you come across as an Israel-supporter. That means nothing productive can come of this discussion. In my own defense, I can point you to my extensive posting history today which I hope shows that I'm only here to encourage people to set aside their preconceptions and approach the issue from an objective point of view without instinctively seeking out to blame one party or the other for "starting it" or "being responsible". In the end, it doesn't fucking matter who's responsible for the death and destruction we see in the news. What I'm more interested in is who will be responsible for setting aside generations of prejudices to actually put this shit behind us and move forward into a new era of peace.
I have seen the same news reports, and a lack of the same news reports. Indeed, I have no proof that the tunnels on the Israeli side were used for smuggling. However, I do know that the blockade has created a huge demand for cross-border smuggling. I also know that the supply of cross-border tunnels has decreased significantly due to action taken on the Egyptian side. I also know that no significant changes have occurred within Gaza to decrease demand for cross-border smuggling. I'm postulating that the tunnels on the Israeli side are suitable for smuggling (albeit less so than the ones on the Egypt side were, since it's much easier to procure illegal arms in Egypt than in Israel), and therefore are most likely being used for such purposes as well. If you feel that the closure of the Egyptian side tunnels has eliminated the demand for smuggled goods in Gaza, or you feel that the Israeli side tunnels are unsuitable for any such purpose, I'm open to hearing your argument. Otherwise, even in the absence of any direct evidence, I will maintain that it is overwhelmingly likely that these tunnels are being used not only for attacks into Israel but also to facilitate cross-border smuggling. You're entitled to disagree, as this is merely conjecture, without providing any evidence. However, in the absence of evidence (and we do have an absence of unbiased evidence regarding these tunnels), I feel that the most reasonable position is the one that acknowledges the incompleteness of information and doesn't insist on absolutes (like the claims that these tunnels' sole purpose was to attack Israel and nothing else). Reality is very rarely so black-and-white, and large infrastructure projects are rarely single-use (even if they are initially intended as such).
And for those interested, here's an alternative take on the greenhouses.
Are we talking "design" as in which logic gates go in which circuit, or are we talking "design" as in rounded corners? Because I thought Apple doesn't do IC design.
Holy fuck I wish I could un-post this comment. I didn't realize it would attract such attention from fans of Apple Computer.
While not an Apple customer myself, I didn't intend this as some sort of Apple-bashing thread. I was merely pointing out that to me, coming from an x86 background, that seems like an astonishingly high sum to spend on any computer at a computer store. Being generally ignorant of Apple products, I didn't mean to imply that this is the cost of a typical Apple product. If you're still feeling butthurt, please s/Apple store/CompUSA/ or s/Apple store/Microcenter/.
Unless of course Apple sells servers at Apple stores. But then again, I didn't even know Apple made servers until some of these responses started rolling in.
Congratulations on discovering the tautology.
Hi. You're mistaking me for someone who cares enough about Macs to read an entire article only to cherry pick quotes that support my position. To be honest, I glanced at the first paragraph or two, only to find a quote that unequivocally supports my position. Forgive me for citing it as such, and return to your Mac-loving ways.
You haven't provided any evidence that Hamas launched even a single rocket prior to the immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir.
Anyway, in case you're having trouble with the timeline and/or the principle of causality:
June 12, three Israeli teenage "settlers" are kidnapped and murdered in the West Bank while hitchhiking, probably by Palestinians.
July 2, a Palestinian teenager in East Jerusalem is kidnapped and burned alive by Israelis.
July 7, Hamas begins its retaliation, launching dozens (and subsequently hundreds) of rockets per day into Israel.
July 8, large scale IDF assault on Gaza.
The current situation (large scale IDF assault on Gaza) can be said to be the result of one of more of the following:
Hamas' retaliatory rocket attacks.
The abduction and immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem.
The abduction and murder of three teenage Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
Don't pretend that Hamas just woke up grumpy one day and decided to start firing off hundreds of rockets at Israel to pass the time.
Also, regarding the discrepancy between Israel's handling of the crimes committed in Israel versus Fatah's handling of the crimes committed in the West Bank (yes, Fatah, not Hamas, because the settler teens were killed in the West Bank, not Gaza)... Perhaps you're not aware of this, but while the Israeli government actually has sovereignty over Israeli territory, Fatah unfortunately does not have sovereignty over the West Bank. Perhaps if Israel were to allow a real sovereign government to exist in the West Bank, they'd have the right to expect some sort of real governance there. Since that is currently not the case, I personally am not surprised to see that a weak pseudo-government is incapable of quality police work. Are you? Or are you now saying that the moderate Fatah government is intentionally interfering with the investigation? That would be quite the extraordinary claim, one not even made by the Israelis themselves.
I know you are being sarcastic here, but seriously, what would it take to convince you that a tunnel from Gaza into Israel was intended for attacking Israel?
How about if it was actually used to attack Israel... would that be enough to convince you?
No, that wouldn't be enough to convince me. Any more than you would be convinced that the tunnels are used to smuggle essential supplies if I were to provide convincing evidence that someone walked through one with some shawarma once. Any honest person will admit that it's entirely possible and overwhelmingly likely that the tunnels serve(d) many purposes. That they were used in the commission of crimes (to Westerners, "terrorism", to Arabs, "resistance") doesn't mean that that was their sole purpose. My point is that if you're okay with calling them "terror tunnels" or "kidnapping tunnels", or arbitrarily naming them for one of their many uses, you should be equally okay with calling them "food tunnels". Of course, you don't hear people talking about the "food tunnels", because that doesn't fit the narrative that they're trying to push with their "terror tunnels". I'm pointing out dishonesty, nothing more, nothing less. I acknowledge that these tunnels were used to kill or capture Israeli soldiers, because I'm not trying to advance one side's agenda over the other's. Are you similarly willing to acknowledge that these tunnels were used for purposes that aren't quite so nefarious, or do you refuse to acknowledge reality when it fails to cast a negative light on the Palestinians?
You are seriously arguing the moral equivalence of Hamas and Israel? You are seriously saying that it's okay for Hamas to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Israel has been able to keep them from getting better weapons?
No, but it sure seems like Israel apologists are saying that it's okay for Israel to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Palestinians have been unable to police their side of the quasi-border (largely because of Israeli policy which prevents any meaningful governance by the PA). I'm merely using this faulty logic in the opposite direction, where I expected it to be quickly called out as being faulty logic. However, I suppose it's asking too much for people to realize that if it's faulty logic when used in defense of Hamas, it's equally faulty when used in defense of Israel.
If only a peaceful agreement were possible.
1) Evacuate
2) Nuke
3) Middle east below sea level
4) Peace!