Here is proof positive you have no clue what you are talking about. You have never written software that has been sold. I guess you are soon going to finish high-school. Yes, there is enormous amounts of software out there that require a web interface. You talk to the customer, they hand you a spec, and the spec says: "Application must have a web interface." Whatever you think of that requirement is irrelevant, it is there, and you have to deal with it.
And you're where? Stuck in the 90s?
Hey, moron, it would cost billions and billions of dollars to scrap all AS/400 (or S/XXXX) stuff out there and replace it with newer technologies. In most cases it makes no sense technology wise or money wise. As you are now proving 100%, you are a high-school kid with no effing clue.
Do you use your banks on-line services? How the fxxx do you think your account data is moved from the IBM hardware, probably S/XXX or AS/400 boxes, and into your browser? Magic? Someone much smarter than you will ever become wrote software that interfaces between the Sun server (probably) that runs your banks website, and the IBM hardware that has all your account information. Would you fire the person who came up with the idea that you should be able to access your bank account from your web-browser? Moron.
I said: Java is, by far, the best tool for a number of different types of projects.
Your moronic reply: Only if you throw out laughable parameters like "must run in a fucking Web browser."
Hey, dumb-ass, I didn't say that the java part must run in a web-browser, 99% of all Java stuff runs on the server side. It sits on the Sun (or maybe Linux) box that hosts the Apache web-server and interfaces with the AS/400 based application that your bank stores your account information in. Applets are generally toys and not widely used. You are so amazingly ignorant of what Java is, and your belief (completely unfounded) that Java is used much for applet work shows that to a staggering degree. Yes, Java is used for web-based applications, but not in the browser, on the server side. To serve up the HTML (or often XML) pages. The fact that you think Java has anything to do with running applets in a browser shows that you are the ignorant dumbass stuck in the '90s.
Well, for starters, the first thing I would do is fire the dumbass that came up with that utterly antiquated and absurd list of requirements.
That would be effing smart you moron. If they did what you suggest here, you would be in so much trouble you wouldn't even know it. The applications we are talking about here run your telephone. Without them you can not dial 911 when someone breaks into your home. They run your bank, without them you will not be able to deposit and withdraw any money. You can't just chuck those away and replace them with a Mac Mini and an Excel spreadsheet. How do you think your city engineers keep track of traffic and manages and controls traffic lights etc. Is it completely idiotic of me to desire access to their data so that I can find out what traffic is like before going home? What about booking travel on-line with American Airlines? They run all of their systems on IBM hardware and Unix servers. How can I book travel on-line with AA? Should we replace all of their systems with Mac Minis and iMovie?
Christ, children like you who thinks that having a neato little toy computer means that we can kill all old stuff and ignore all the applications running on them really need to get out more.
You get paid a ton of money to do things the wrong way.
I do? So you hate the fact that you can now access your bank accounts on-line? You loathe the fact that prices of travel has come down significantly since we can chuck out the middle man who previously made 10% on all your travel? The fact that you can now access, in real-time, traffic information in your city is a total disaste
Sigh. Circular reasoning. "Native applications for this platform suck." "Then make it a Web application!"
You have never been out in the real world I see. I have never said that you should build web interfaces as a replacement for native interfaces, but the fact is still that an enormous amount of enterprice applications today require a web-interface. Not because writing the app Java with SWT, AWT or Swing sucks, but for the advantages a web-interface gives you. Low maintenance cost being a primary argument. Do you have any idea of the cost of rolling out a new native application to 50.000 workstations? What do you do if you need to install a new application and the only time you are allowed to do an upgrade is between 2am and 4am EST?
I said: I see you like/. - a very nice application with, in my opinion, a fairly decent UI.
Your reply: Ah, I see. You make-a de funny, funny joke.
No, that was not meant as a joke. I assume you know that/. is essentially an enterprise application. It does what a huge number of enterprise applications do, lets people search through information, add their own stuff etc. No need for dragging or dropping anything anywhere. Integrate/. with some software running on AS/400 and some HP-UX proprietary applications, and you are there.
Hey, man, pick your toolkit. Cow shit is cow shit no matter what color spray-paint you use on it.
It seems you have no experience developing Java applications (your ignorance about how to build UIs for Java shows this, you obviously have never heard about SWT) and you appear to have extremely limited experience developing real-world enterprise applications. What makes your attitude towards Java so negative?
I am not a Java bigot, I prefer to use the tool most appropriate for the job. Java is, by far, the best tool for a number of different types of projects. That you do not know this is ignorance. That you toot that ignorance all over/. is just sad.
Java,.Net, C, Ruby, PHP, Perl and a whole host of others are just some of the tools I find practical to use. I don't have anything against any of them. Some of them are good for some things, others for other things. Later this year there is most likely some native development for Mac in my pipeline. I can imagine Objective-C may be the tool of choice.
As an task for you tonight, suggest tool, or tools, for the following task:
- Develop an application that must run on Sun servers, it must take full advantage of 8 or more CPUs.
- The app must support 5 000 simultaneous users.
- It must collect data from 10 000 SNMP managed entities
- Data must be stored in an (the only approved in this company) Oracle database in a RAC configuration
- The application must correlate the collected data with data from a CRM system running on AS/400.
- Finally, the application must scale to twice the number of users and four times the number of managed entities, without requiring a shut-down. Preferrably using dynamic load-balancing.
Delivery is October 2005
What tool would you use, and how many developer will you need?
Java is far from the only tool for this, but it is probably by far the best tool for such a task. The requirements above are a small sub-set of typical requirements where Java applications thrive today.
Sure, web interfaces are a pain, but the are a requirement for a significant number of enterprise applications today. Unless it has a web interface, you won't be able to sell it. You come there with a non-web-based drag and drop and they'll kick you out before you get started on your presentation of you wonderful app. There are many good reasons for that, one of the being that the vast majority of applications do not need a complex UI.
I see you like/. - a very nice application with, in my opinion, a fairly decent UI. Do you hate it that much? Reminds you of VT100 days? How would you improve the/. application using drag and drop?
I also see that you completely forget to comment on your own ignorance about building Java GUI apps with frameworks like SWT. Since SWT interfaces with the native UI framework on any platform it supports, it is fast, nice looking and easy to develop with.
I re-iterate. Only incompetent developers blame their tools.
with exactly one exception that I know of, a Java application has to have a Swing user interface
As with most critics of Java, the problem here lies not only in incompetence, but also in complete and utter ignorance. No, a java application doesn't have to have a Swing user interface. It doesn't even have to have an AWT user interface. In fact, I am willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of Java applications have a web user interface, which is my preferred user interface for enterprice apps. For desktop (standalone) apps, I much like the SWT. I can't recall seing any Swing based apps in a long time.
As I said - only incompetent (which is often coupled with ignorant) developers will blame their tools when they come up short.
nybody who writes end-user applications in Java is also into inflicting massive amounts of pain
It's a pity that some ignorant developers, usually of the kind that blame their tools for their own incompetence, still think that the programming language chosen will significantly impact the usability of the resulting application.
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"Require?" No. Nothing requires a Web interface.
Here is proof positive you have no clue what you are talking about. You have never written software that has been sold. I guess you are soon going to finish high-school. Yes, there is enormous amounts of software out there that require a web interface. You talk to the customer, they hand you a spec, and the spec says: "Application must have a web interface." Whatever you think of that requirement is irrelevant, it is there, and you have to deal with it.
And you're where? Stuck in the 90s?
Hey, moron, it would cost billions and billions of dollars to scrap all AS/400 (or S/XXXX) stuff out there and replace it with newer technologies. In most cases it makes no sense technology wise or money wise. As you are now proving 100%, you are a high-school kid with no effing clue.
Do you use your banks on-line services? How the fxxx do you think your account data is moved from the IBM hardware, probably S/XXX or AS/400 boxes, and into your browser? Magic? Someone much smarter than you will ever become wrote software that interfaces between the Sun server (probably) that runs your banks website, and the IBM hardware that has all your account information. Would you fire the person who came up with the idea that you should be able to access your bank account from your web-browser? Moron.
I said: Java is, by far, the best tool for a number of different types of projects.
Your moronic reply: Only if you throw out laughable parameters like "must run in a fucking Web browser."
Hey, dumb-ass, I didn't say that the java part must run in a web-browser, 99% of all Java stuff runs on the server side. It sits on the Sun (or maybe Linux) box that hosts the Apache web-server and interfaces with the AS/400 based application that your bank stores your account information in. Applets are generally toys and not widely used. You are so amazingly ignorant of what Java is, and your belief (completely unfounded) that Java is used much for applet work shows that to a staggering degree. Yes, Java is used for web-based applications, but not in the browser, on the server side. To serve up the HTML (or often XML) pages. The fact that you think Java has anything to do with running applets in a browser shows that you are the ignorant dumbass stuck in the '90s.
Well, for starters, the first thing I would do is fire the dumbass that came up with that utterly antiquated and absurd list of requirements.
That would be effing smart you moron. If they did what you suggest here, you would be in so much trouble you wouldn't even know it. The applications we are talking about here run your telephone. Without them you can not dial 911 when someone breaks into your home. They run your bank, without them you will not be able to deposit and withdraw any money. You can't just chuck those away and replace them with a Mac Mini and an Excel spreadsheet. How do you think your city engineers keep track of traffic and manages and controls traffic lights etc. Is it completely idiotic of me to desire access to their data so that I can find out what traffic is like before going home? What about booking travel on-line with American Airlines? They run all of their systems on IBM hardware and Unix servers. How can I book travel on-line with AA? Should we replace all of their systems with Mac Minis and iMovie?
Christ, children like you who thinks that having a neato little toy computer means that we can kill all old stuff and ignore all the applications running on them really need to get out more.
You get paid a ton of money to do things the wrong way.
I do? So you hate the fact that you can now access your bank accounts on-line? You loathe the fact that prices of travel has come down significantly since we can chuck out the middle man who previously made 10% on all your travel? The fact that you can now access, in real-time, traffic information in your city is a total disaste
Sigh. Circular reasoning. "Native applications for this platform suck." "Then make it a Web application!"
You have never been out in the real world I see. I have never said that you should build web interfaces as a replacement for native interfaces, but the fact is still that an enormous amount of enterprice applications today require a web-interface. Not because writing the app Java with SWT, AWT or Swing sucks, but for the advantages a web-interface gives you. Low maintenance cost being a primary argument. Do you have any idea of the cost of rolling out a new native application to 50.000 workstations? What do you do if you need to install a new application and the only time you are allowed to do an upgrade is between 2am and 4am EST?
I said: I see you like /. - a very nice application with, in my opinion, a fairly decent UI.
Your reply: Ah, I see. You make-a de funny, funny joke.
No, that was not meant as a joke. I assume you know that /. is essentially an enterprise application. It does what a huge number of enterprise applications do, lets people search through information, add their own stuff etc. No need for dragging or dropping anything anywhere. Integrate /. with some software running on AS/400 and some HP-UX proprietary applications, and you are there.
Hey, man, pick your toolkit. Cow shit is cow shit no matter what color spray-paint you use on it.
It seems you have no experience developing Java applications (your ignorance about how to build UIs for Java shows this, you obviously have never heard about SWT) and you appear to have extremely limited experience developing real-world enterprise applications. What makes your attitude towards Java so negative?
I am not a Java bigot, I prefer to use the tool most appropriate for the job. Java is, by far, the best tool for a number of different types of projects. That you do not know this is ignorance. That you toot that ignorance all over /. is just sad.
Java, .Net, C, Ruby, PHP, Perl and a whole host of others are just some of the tools I find practical to use. I don't have anything against any of them. Some of them are good for some things, others for other things. Later this year there is most likely some native development for Mac in my pipeline. I can imagine Objective-C may be the tool of choice.
As an task for you tonight, suggest tool, or tools, for the following task:
- Develop an application that must run on Sun servers, it must take full advantage of 8 or more CPUs.
- The app must support 5 000 simultaneous users.
- It must collect data from 10 000 SNMP managed entities
- Data must be stored in an (the only approved in this company) Oracle database in a RAC configuration
- The application must correlate the collected data with data from a CRM system running on AS/400.
- Finally, the application must scale to twice the number of users and four times the number of managed entities, without requiring a shut-down. Preferrably using dynamic load-balancing.
Delivery is October 2005
What tool would you use, and how many developer will you need?
Java is far from the only tool for this, but it is probably by far the best tool for such a task. The requirements above are a small sub-set of typical requirements where Java applications thrive today.
Sure, web interfaces are a pain, but the are a requirement for a significant number of enterprise applications today. Unless it has a web interface, you won't be able to sell it. You come there with a non-web-based drag and drop and they'll kick you out before you get started on your presentation of you wonderful app. There are many good reasons for that, one of the being that the vast majority of applications do not need a complex UI.
I see you like /. - a very nice application with, in my opinion, a fairly decent UI. Do you hate it that much? Reminds you of VT100 days? How would you improve the /. application using drag and drop?
I also see that you completely forget to comment on your own ignorance about building Java GUI apps with frameworks like SWT. Since SWT interfaces with the native UI framework on any platform it supports, it is fast, nice looking and easy to develop with.
I re-iterate. Only incompetent developers blame their tools.
with exactly one exception that I know of, a Java application has to have a Swing user interface
As with most critics of Java, the problem here lies not only in incompetence, but also in complete and utter ignorance. No, a java application doesn't have to have a Swing user interface. It doesn't even have to have an AWT user interface. In fact, I am willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of Java applications have a web user interface, which is my preferred user interface for enterprice apps. For desktop (standalone) apps, I much like the SWT. I can't recall seing any Swing based apps in a long time.
As I said - only incompetent (which is often coupled with ignorant) developers will blame their tools when they come up short.
nybody who writes end-user applications in Java is also into inflicting massive amounts of pain
It's a pity that some ignorant developers, usually of the kind that blame their tools for their own incompetence, still think that the programming language chosen will significantly impact the usability of the resulting application.