(This was posted on SOE boards and offers a very well thought out critique of the system)
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7. There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds. The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated. Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system. Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the/con result. This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat. The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around. This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place? XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based co
I'd actually be very interested in putting together an investment group to acquire the rights to the OLD code and license from LucasArts, and lease it back to SoE to deliver content on their servers, letting a community effort drive the needed code rewrite to correctly balance combat as originally intended.
I will stand by my belief that in the hands of a small team of community-based coders, the entire program could have been done in 60 days, working as intended, tested, and live.
PvE is more involved because it forces grouping to level. If you don't have friends, you'll be left spamming "Lvl 31 ranged LFG!" until someone invites you.
PvP is static and uneventful now. No longer do you choose the correct weapon for the job, or use a tactical assesment of your opponents and determine a best course of action. Now everyone rushes in and spams KD, low-level attack, high level attack, repeat, while one person spams Root. There is no tactic anymore, and a FotM was developed on TC that is in effect today. The mind pool was an oft-targeted pool, but at least we had 3 to choose from. My PA could incap anyone on any bar we chose. In fact, most of our damage was done to the Action bar, or Health bar, not the mind bar. Anyone stuck in the mindset that dizzy/KD ruled all was not a competent PvPer.
The CU does not belong where it is. A large segment of the community - from role players, to crafters, to entertainers, to hunters, to doctors, to PvPers - all feel jilted by the effects of the CU on their gameplay, and the cancellations reflect that.
The Cu is still very much in beta on the Live servers, very bug and exploit riddled, and given SoE's track record at addressing bugs and gameplay issues, it will be sometime between 2017 and never when they will actually get it resolved.
I'd put my money on them tossing the whole thing out and redoing it all over again in haphazard manner once again in about 9 months, after delaying it twice.
Your opinion is noted, however you cite incorrect facts.
Regarding your "Before the CU" section.... 1. There were few, if any, complaints about easy to kill monsters. 2. Variety existed 80m away, if you looked around. Nowhere did the exact same MOBs spawn everywhere. 3. PvP was not unbalanced - any competent PvPer did not have a problem finding a template and using it sucessfully. Duels are one thing, PvP is another. CM+? was no special template. My PA made mince meat out of CM's, including groups of them, with protection, anywhere and everytime, with fewer people, and one or two docs. If you lost to a CM, you came unprepared - and that's your own fault. 4. Grouping did not necessarily reduce XP. If you targeted the same MOB solo, then grouped, the XP was divided amongst the group based on the amount of damage done per player. Money was divided evenly amongst the group members. Grouping pre-CU allowed players to tackle MOB's they ordinarily could not have defeated on their own solo, and rewarded them with more XP than fighting a lesser MOB solo. 5. Composite armor was actually very unique. There were many different builds of it, depending on the resources used, and the skill of the armorsmith. Some armor was generic with a 2 special resists, and lower base. Some had triple layered special resists. Some used NS shards. Some used Krayt segments. The variances in the inner workings and defensive ratings of the armor was vast - and very few people put together 90% sets, as it took about 30 slices per piece to get one to come out that good, providing you used a base that was high enough.
Post CU, your arguments don't hold water either. 1. The level system reduces combat to even level arrangements. With 80 levels, how easy do you think it is now for a developing character to FIND, let alone, engage a MOB at equal level, without aggroing multiple MOBs on that person, which would cause death in seconds? 2. You could see 'mission levels' pre-CU on terminals, and the level was offered in accordance with the offensive and defensive strength of the individual or group. The new system is no different, but only serves to take away any sense of variance by providing a nice, safe, clean MOB to kill that will be exactly your level. Any sense of danger in that? No. Boring. 3. PvP is no longer diverse. There is ranged, and melee, and he who had the highest level will win. With equal levels, he who has a "root" ability wins. If both have it, it's a draw. There is no more skill to PvP any longer. It is all about your level, and no longer about your skills or abilities. There was never a 'best combo move' in PvP. There is now: KD, root, special. That's it. No skill, no danger. 4. Grouping enhances XP by increasing your aggregate level to a 'group level'. It changes the amount of damage a MOB does to you, and alters your resists and natural armor. This is modifying your inate abilities on the fly, which is not only implausable and breaks both canon and immersion. 5. All armor resists are the same now per type. They look different, but they function the same. they also wear much faster, and cost much more because they can no longer be factory run effectively, because crafting has suffered a nerf due to CU.
CU in concept could have improved the game, had it been limited to the original intentions published in January, which included a revamp on armor, fixing specials on broken professions, and reworking the buff system. Overhauling the game from skill based to level based was never discussed with the community or the sandbox testers. Telling people to stop crying is a childish act, showing you really have not the ability to recognize when facts are laid out before you, that you fail to comprehend what they mean and how it affects the game, and the game experience.
For those of us that did try it, test it, and did not like it, there are other mmorpg's - but they're all like SWG is now, and there was a reason we weren't playing
No, not everyone was "gung-ho". The initial reports were greeted with anticipation and skepticism, but by and whole people wanted to test them. The inital review of the docs didn't prepare even the most hardened veteran for what came next: The EQ-ification of SWG.
Instead of a combat upgrade, we received a GAME REMAKE. Big difference. If they had left it to just the combat changes, without the level system, cooldown timers, stupid cartoon icons, magical particle effects, ruined sounds, broken con system, and destroyed professions, then we might have had something worthwhile.
But no, after ditching the CU they _had_ been working on in sandbox testing with the sandbox testers, someone at SOE made some decision that the only way to do it was to change the game into Everquest 2 using Star Wars graphics.
We have been screaming for a combat upgrade, and no one - none of the sandbox testers, and none of the profession correspondants - asked for, or even suggested 3/4 of the crap we got in this pathetic pile. I know, because i was a sandbox tester, and this isn't anything close to what we were working on.
Not only that, the player correspondants were all against these changes once we actually saw what was done. Opposition was high, so high the armorsmith correspondant was FIRED over his objection to that SOE told everyone they were doing.
They had the audacity to code the EP3 Wookiee expansion in the new system, effectively forcing this crap live.
The objection of a LARGE portion of the players is this: Immersion is ruined, and if we wanted to play Everquest, we would be playing Everquest. But we're not, so don't screw with the game itself.
Sure there are people that like it, you could release the worst thing in the world and somebody will stand up and say it's great. But by and large, those who call themselves supporters are only taking into account what CU fixes, without acknowleging what it destroys.
Sure, it's nice to go out without buffs, it's nice to take the defense stacking out, and it's nice to remove DOT weapons....but is it worth what you got in the long run?
All that was achieved by the CU could have been implemented in the old system, without destroying what was a very original and exciting system that differed from the run of the mill MMORPG's out there.
Now it's Everquest with f*cking ewoks. My suggestion for prospective players: Don't waste your money - cause there isn't much left anymore. Not to mention the empty servers.
www.swgpetition.com has almost 13,500 sigs now, and if you figure 2 accts per person, that's close to 27,000 subscriptions. I know a ton of people still playing because they bought 1yr or 6mos renewals a few months ago, and now they're stuck with it and SOE will not give refunds. Instead they delete all forum posts in opposition, ban players who protest in-game, and outright lie to players at events with developers, like the recent breakfast meeting that was held.
Slashdot Mirror
(This was posted on SOE boards and offers a very well thought out critique of the system)
/con result.
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based co
I'd actually be very interested in putting together an investment group to acquire the rights to the OLD code and license from LucasArts, and lease it back to SoE to deliver content on their servers, letting a community effort drive the needed code rewrite to correctly balance combat as originally intended. I will stand by my belief that in the hands of a small team of community-based coders, the entire program could have been done in 60 days, working as intended, tested, and live.
Glad you enjoy it.
PvE is more involved because it forces grouping to level. If you don't have friends, you'll be left spamming "Lvl 31 ranged LFG!" until someone invites you.
PvP is static and uneventful now. No longer do you choose the correct weapon for the job, or use a tactical assesment of your opponents and determine a best course of action. Now everyone rushes in and spams KD, low-level attack, high level attack, repeat, while one person spams Root. There is no tactic anymore, and a FotM was developed on TC that is in effect today. The mind pool was an oft-targeted pool, but at least we had 3 to choose from. My PA could incap anyone on any bar we chose. In fact, most of our damage was done to the Action bar, or Health bar, not the mind bar. Anyone stuck in the mindset that dizzy/KD ruled all was not a competent PvPer.
The CU does not belong where it is. A large segment of the community - from role players, to crafters, to entertainers, to hunters, to doctors, to PvPers - all feel jilted by the effects of the CU on their gameplay, and the cancellations reflect that.
The Cu is still very much in beta on the Live servers, very bug and exploit riddled, and given SoE's track record at addressing bugs and gameplay issues, it will be sometime between 2017 and never when they will actually get it resolved.
I'd put my money on them tossing the whole thing out and redoing it all over again in haphazard manner once again in about 9 months, after delaying it twice.
Your opinion is noted, however you cite incorrect facts.
Regarding your "Before the CU" section....
1. There were few, if any, complaints about easy to kill monsters.
2. Variety existed 80m away, if you looked around. Nowhere did the exact same MOBs spawn everywhere.
3. PvP was not unbalanced - any competent PvPer did not have a problem finding a template and using it sucessfully. Duels are one thing, PvP is another. CM+? was no special template. My PA made mince meat out of CM's, including groups of them, with protection, anywhere and everytime, with fewer people, and one or two docs. If you lost to a CM, you came unprepared - and that's your own fault.
4. Grouping did not necessarily reduce XP. If you targeted the same MOB solo, then grouped, the XP was divided amongst the group based on the amount of damage done per player. Money was divided evenly amongst the group members. Grouping pre-CU allowed players to tackle MOB's they ordinarily could not have defeated on their own solo, and rewarded them with more XP than fighting a lesser MOB solo.
5. Composite armor was actually very unique. There were many different builds of it, depending on the resources used, and the skill of the armorsmith. Some armor was generic with a 2 special resists, and lower base. Some had triple layered special resists. Some used NS shards. Some used Krayt segments. The variances in the inner workings and defensive ratings of the armor was vast - and very few people put together 90% sets, as it took about 30 slices per piece to get one to come out that good, providing you used a base that was high enough.
Post CU, your arguments don't hold water either.
1. The level system reduces combat to even level arrangements. With 80 levels, how easy do you think it is now for a developing character to FIND, let alone, engage a MOB at equal level, without aggroing multiple MOBs on that person, which would cause death in seconds?
2. You could see 'mission levels' pre-CU on terminals, and the level was offered in accordance with the offensive and defensive strength of the individual or group. The new system is no different, but only serves to take away any sense of variance by providing a nice, safe, clean MOB to kill that will be exactly your level. Any sense of danger in that? No. Boring.
3. PvP is no longer diverse. There is ranged, and melee, and he who had the highest level will win. With equal levels, he who has a "root" ability wins. If both have it, it's a draw. There is no more skill to PvP any longer. It is all about your level, and no longer about your skills or abilities. There was never a 'best combo move' in PvP. There is now: KD, root, special. That's it. No skill, no danger.
4. Grouping enhances XP by increasing your aggregate level to a 'group level'. It changes the amount of damage a MOB does to you, and alters your resists and natural armor. This is modifying your inate abilities on the fly, which is not only implausable and breaks both canon and immersion.
5. All armor resists are the same now per type. They look different, but they function the same. they also wear much faster, and cost much more because they can no longer be factory run effectively, because crafting has suffered a nerf due to CU.
CU in concept could have improved the game, had it been limited to the original intentions published in January, which included a revamp on armor, fixing specials on broken professions, and reworking the buff system. Overhauling the game from skill based to level based was never discussed with the community or the sandbox testers. Telling people to stop crying is a childish act, showing you really have not the ability to recognize when facts are laid out before you, that you fail to comprehend what they mean and how it affects the game, and the game experience.
For those of us that did try it, test it, and did not like it, there are other mmorpg's - but they're all like SWG is now, and there was a reason we weren't playing
No, not everyone was "gung-ho". The initial reports were greeted with anticipation and skepticism, but by and whole people wanted to test them. The inital review of the docs didn't prepare even the most hardened veteran for what came next: The EQ-ification of SWG. Instead of a combat upgrade, we received a GAME REMAKE. Big difference. If they had left it to just the combat changes, without the level system, cooldown timers, stupid cartoon icons, magical particle effects, ruined sounds, broken con system, and destroyed professions, then we might have had something worthwhile. But no, after ditching the CU they _had_ been working on in sandbox testing with the sandbox testers, someone at SOE made some decision that the only way to do it was to change the game into Everquest 2 using Star Wars graphics. We have been screaming for a combat upgrade, and no one - none of the sandbox testers, and none of the profession correspondants - asked for, or even suggested 3/4 of the crap we got in this pathetic pile. I know, because i was a sandbox tester, and this isn't anything close to what we were working on. Not only that, the player correspondants were all against these changes once we actually saw what was done. Opposition was high, so high the armorsmith correspondant was FIRED over his objection to that SOE told everyone they were doing. They had the audacity to code the EP3 Wookiee expansion in the new system, effectively forcing this crap live. The objection of a LARGE portion of the players is this: Immersion is ruined, and if we wanted to play Everquest, we would be playing Everquest. But we're not, so don't screw with the game itself. Sure there are people that like it, you could release the worst thing in the world and somebody will stand up and say it's great. But by and large, those who call themselves supporters are only taking into account what CU fixes, without acknowleging what it destroys. Sure, it's nice to go out without buffs, it's nice to take the defense stacking out, and it's nice to remove DOT weapons....but is it worth what you got in the long run? All that was achieved by the CU could have been implemented in the old system, without destroying what was a very original and exciting system that differed from the run of the mill MMORPG's out there. Now it's Everquest with f*cking ewoks. My suggestion for prospective players: Don't waste your money - cause there isn't much left anymore. Not to mention the empty servers. www.swgpetition.com has almost 13,500 sigs now, and if you figure 2 accts per person, that's close to 27,000 subscriptions. I know a ton of people still playing because they bought 1yr or 6mos renewals a few months ago, and now they're stuck with it and SOE will not give refunds. Instead they delete all forum posts in opposition, ban players who protest in-game, and outright lie to players at events with developers, like the recent breakfast meeting that was held.