I said it would be a thousand times better, not that they would be good.
Fair enough.
The fact that this CoC actually talk about "micro-agressions" in their code of conduct just makes me die a little inside. The fact that we can discuss or disagree without delving into a raging flame is proof you don't need to be "nice", but just "courteous" (or "polite", as you indicated). We don't have to be best friends, and you don't need a code of conduct saying that you need to try to be the best person you can be (gag).
What would yours say?
Probably something like
"First try politely. If that does not get the message across and you are sure the message is important, you are allowed to escalate."
Incidentally, in most industrial settings, this is just how you do it: If they do not listen to you and the message must get across, you go over their heads. In a FOSS project, escalation takes a different form.
Very, very true. Also, the original statements by Djikstra have to be seen in context: Back then people used "goto" and "if" for all looping constructs, creating horrible messes.
Very, very true. High IQ, no wisdom at all. That kills any coding project in the long run because everything gets more and more complicated and eventually no measure of IQ is enough to keep control of it. Smart coders always write the most obviously simple code for a problem, unless it turns out optimization is critically needed. Then they comment so clearly that things are still easy to understand.
It is fascinating how utterly dumb some high IQ people can be. All wanting to impress others and completely missing the point of what they are doing at the same time.
Incidentally, just like writing compact and clear text, writing compact and clear code is much harder than writing complex code.
Many people have completely lost sight of what is important these days. It is pathetic. Linus is entrusted with keeping the most used OS kernel working. Any way he manages to do this is acceptable.
Looking at some comments here and in similar stories, it seems there are quite a few people that would indeed try this.
Relevant quote: "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
Indeed. Completely unreadable. That is an accident waiting to happen. Or an opportunity to slide in a backdoor. In fact, the code is so bad I consider it a real possibility it was a test for the second thing. (I do not know the involved people though, it may also just have been stupidity.)
Sometimes it is the only sane way out. Even Djikstra did acknowledge that. His "goto considered harmful" was for when goto was used instead of the (newly available) tools of structured programming. It was not for cases where the goto is simpler and clearer. Also note that a "break" or "continue" is basically a disguised "goto".
If anything, he was too friendly. People submitting stuff like that should be banned from contributing until they have learned how to write readable code.
First, there are almost no "simple misjudgments". They are almost always part of a pattern.
And look, they are. Somebody messing it up this badly has not understood several very fundamental things. It does not matter that it is "only three lines". There is so much utter stupid in these three lines that it is truly incredible. And there is extreme disrespect for the kernel code quality in addition. Submitting code like this is hugely disrespectful and very destructive.
I am with Linus on this. If anything, he was far too friendly.
Sure, this is attractive to anybody that does not have good skills. You will never ever be criticized again for doing or saying really dumb things! Have fun!
From my observations, SJWs are not good at anything except telling others what to do, what to say and how to think, so any statements referring to skills or competences or levels of difficulty are right out!
Those that just can't behave, you ask to leave, because whatever their technical ability may be, there are others who are better and know how to act like grownups, at least most of the time.
So, you have another Linus Torwalds hidden away that is better at making kernels _and_ is always unfailingly polite? Impressive!
Only sane explanation for this nonsense that I have found. This type of thing is a hostile takeover attempt. Probably the SJW plague is trying this because they do not have what it takes to create things themselves. So they try to steal projects. They also universally run them into the ground within a short time, and can hence only be classified as a force of destruction and evil.
1. Requiring respect and kindness is a dead end. It will make many people disregards every kind of criticism. What you are looking for is "politeness". When you have to tell somebody their ideas are crap and they have no clue what they are taking about you cannot do that with "respect and kindness". You can do it politely though. Often that will be "icy politeness", but that message _has_ to get across in an engineering project or things will that to break.
2. How is that different from "be clear"? Exactly, this one _requires_ people to never ever be clear on anything, because all clear statements are easy to misinterpret. Humans are +great_ at misinterpreting stuff to suit their own needs. Only expressions of fuzzy, warm sentiments cannot be misinterpreted.
3. So be friendly and supporting to people that want to push bad technological ideas? That is the road to hell. It assumes nobody in love with their own ideas ever needs to be criticized. Reality is almost completely the converse.
4. Does include "please squeal on anybody you do not like".
So, say, would you advocate not firing incompetent people anymore? And how about if said people had opportunities to become competent but considered taking them too much effort or beneath them?
This is how the collapse of a society starts: Focus on secondary things instead of on critical ones.
Linux is very carefully only be rude to people that deserve it. Of course some of them claim they have been wronged without good reason, but of you look closer, that is only because they would prefer not to have to listen to an analysis of how they messed up. The problem with politeness is that some people (often the really incompetent ones) prefer to misunderstand what you are saying. After all you were still nice, so your screw-up could not have been that bad, now could it?
Personally, I prefer cutting people to shreds in a polite manner, but unfortunately that does not work often as it requires a minimal level of insight into themselves in the targets.
Indeed. The soundness of a technological argument does not depend on who makes it, it depends on what it says. It is also quite common that smarter people have little patience with what, lets call them "not smarter people" say and may react in "less diplomatic" ways.
Of course, merely pointing out that some people are "not smarter" may already get me banned. And obviously, this go community is not one that respect skills and insights, but how people express themselves. That is a sure recipe for failure in any technological or scientific discipline.
Prices for basic goods will not raise too much, because if they do, they just get imported from abroad. Unless extreme tariffs are imposed, but that only happens if the government actually wants prices to raise. Today, domestic economies in the west are not nearly as isolated as a strong raise in prices would require.
Slashdot Mirror
I said it would be a thousand times better, not that they would be good.
Fair enough.
The fact that this CoC actually talk about "micro-agressions" in their code of conduct just makes me die a little inside. The fact that we can discuss or disagree without delving into a raging flame is proof you don't need to be "nice", but just "courteous" (or "polite", as you indicated). We don't have to be best friends, and you don't need a code of conduct saying that you need to try to be the best person you can be (gag).
What would yours say?
Probably something like
"First try politely. If that does not get the message across and you are sure the message is important, you are allowed to escalate."
Incidentally, in most industrial settings, this is just how you do it: If they do not listen to you and the message must get across, you go over their heads. In a FOSS project, escalation takes a different form.
Very, very true. Also, the original statements by Djikstra have to be seen in context: Back then people used "goto" and "if" for all looping constructs, creating horrible messes.
Very, very true. High IQ, no wisdom at all. That kills any coding project in the long run because everything gets more and more complicated and eventually no measure of IQ is enough to keep control of it. Smart coders always write the most obviously simple code for a problem, unless it turns out optimization is critically needed. Then they comment so clearly that things are still easy to understand.
It is fascinating how utterly dumb some high IQ people can be. All wanting to impress others and completely missing the point of what they are doing at the same time.
Incidentally, just like writing compact and clear text, writing compact and clear code is much harder than writing complex code.
Many people have completely lost sight of what is important these days. It is pathetic. Linus is entrusted with keeping the most used OS kernel working. Any way he manages to do this is acceptable.
Looking at some comments here and in similar stories, it seems there are quite a few people that would indeed try this.
Relevant quote: "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
That one is very, very true.
Indeed. Completely unreadable. That is an accident waiting to happen. Or an opportunity to slide in a backdoor. In fact, the code is so bad I consider it a real possibility it was a test for the second thing. (I do not know the involved people though, it may also just have been stupidity.)
Sometimes it is the only sane way out. Even Djikstra did acknowledge that. His "goto considered harmful" was for when goto was used instead of the (newly available) tools of structured programming. It was not for cases where the goto is simpler and clearer. Also note that a "break" or "continue" is basically a disguised "goto".
If anything, he was too friendly. People submitting stuff like that should be banned from contributing until they have learned how to write readable code.
First, there are almost no "simple misjudgments". They are almost always part of a pattern.
And look, they are. Somebody messing it up this badly has not understood several very fundamental things. It does not matter that it is "only three lines". There is so much utter stupid in these three lines that it is truly incredible. And there is extreme disrespect for the kernel code quality in addition. Submitting code like this is hugely disrespectful and very destructive.
I am with Linus on this. If anything, he was far too friendly.
Bah, next you will tell us you care about project success. That is sooooo yesterday.
Machen es so niemand kann mich verstehen?
Incidentally, your German sucks ;-)
Nice analysis otherwise!
Sure, this is attractive to anybody that does not have good skills. You will never ever be criticized again for doing or saying really dumb things! Have fun!
From my observations, SJWs are not good at anything except telling others what to do, what to say and how to think, so any statements referring to skills or competences or levels of difficulty are right out!
Those that just can't behave, you ask to leave, because whatever their technical ability may be, there are others who are better and know how to act like grownups, at least most of the time.
So, you have another Linus Torwalds hidden away that is better at making kernels _and_ is always unfailingly polite? Impressive!
Only sane explanation for this nonsense that I have found. This type of thing is a hostile takeover attempt. Probably the SJW plague is trying this because they do not have what it takes to create things themselves. So they try to steal projects. They also universally run them into the ground within a short time, and can hence only be classified as a force of destruction and evil.
Lets have a go at these:
1. Requiring respect and kindness is a dead end. It will make many people disregards every kind of criticism. What you are looking for is "politeness". When you have to tell somebody their ideas are crap and they have no clue what they are taking about you cannot do that with "respect and kindness". You can do it politely though. Often that will be "icy politeness", but that message _has_ to get across in an engineering project or things will that to break.
2. How is that different from "be clear"? Exactly, this one _requires_ people to never ever be clear on anything, because all clear statements are easy to misinterpret. Humans are +great_ at misinterpreting stuff to suit their own needs. Only expressions of fuzzy, warm sentiments cannot be misinterpreted.
3. So be friendly and supporting to people that want to push bad technological ideas? That is the road to hell. It assumes nobody in love with their own ideas ever needs to be criticized. Reality is almost completely the converse.
4. Does include "please squeal on anybody you do not like".
No, I do not think these are good at all.
So, say, would you advocate not firing incompetent people anymore? And how about if said people had opportunities to become competent but considered taking them too much effort or beneath them?
This is how the collapse of a society starts: Focus on secondary things instead of on critical ones.
Fascinating. Some people will never ever get a shred of insight into who they truly are.
That is not what is happening. Try again.
Linux is very carefully only be rude to people that deserve it. Of course some of them claim they have been wronged without good reason, but of you look closer, that is only because they would prefer not to have to listen to an analysis of how they messed up. The problem with politeness is that some people (often the really incompetent ones) prefer to misunderstand what you are saying. After all you were still nice, so your screw-up could not have been that bad, now could it?
Personally, I prefer cutting people to shreds in a polite manner, but unfortunately that does not work often as it requires a minimal level of insight into themselves in the targets.
Indeed. The soundness of a technological argument does not depend on who makes it, it depends on what it says. It is also quite common that smarter people have little patience with what, lets call them "not smarter people" say and may react in "less diplomatic" ways.
Of course, merely pointing out that some people are "not smarter" may already get me banned. And obviously, this go community is not one that respect skills and insights, but how people express themselves. That is a sure recipe for failure in any technological or scientific discipline.
Prices for basic goods will not raise too much, because if they do, they just get imported from abroad. Unless extreme tariffs are imposed, but that only happens if the government actually wants prices to raise. Today, domestic economies in the west are not nearly as isolated as a strong raise in prices would require.
I see you get paid for spreading FUD. More evidence the feds and the NSA/GCHQ actually cannot get into TOR.
Don't be stupid. It is unbecoming.
Linux is UNIX-like. Good enough for anybody with half a brain. Obviously, you do not qualify.