Again I hope you don't think I'm trying to convert you by responding. I'm actually enjoying the discussion. If at any point you think I'm pushing my beliefs on you just say so and the discussion will end. Fair enough?
So going back to the beginning: the mormon church requires money to fully take part, and you can't even know the full details of the religion without paying ("what happens there stays there"...must pay to get there).
I can totally see how people would think that. I used to think that way too to be honest as I'm a convert to the Church after being raised without religion. But again this is belief-based topic we're discussing. Scriptural teaching says all things come from God and ultimately belong to Him. We (all Christians not just Mormons. Can't speak to Muslim/Jewish belief.) are asked to give 1/10th of our increase back to God (via the Church). In times when people raised livestock or farmed then that's what they gave. One sheep out of every ten, one bushel out of every ten, etc.. This is no longer applicable for most people and that's how it's become 10% of monetary income.
If you believe in the teaching then it's a non-issue for you. But if you don't believe in the teaching then it is an issue for you. The key part is "issue for you". Simply put it's a matter of faith and not a requirement of worthiness to be a member of the Church. By all means you could attend Church and never pay a dime. This was the counter to the original message I replied to.
Thinking from a secular standpoint: that is similar in principle to scientology, but to a lesser degree.
Thinking from a prodestant standpoint: Requiring money to fully take part in a religion is appalling. If an essential part of your funeral service (dressing your dead sister or whatever) can only take place in temple, and you can't enter temple without paying big bucks, most christians would view that as seriously cruel.
Again, just to clarify, dressing a dead relative and funeral services don't take place in the temple. Putting on the burial garment is for endowed members. But the loved one is not hidden from the non-endowed relatives and people are not excluded from a loved one. That would be cruel.
As to histories and other documents: The PBS documentary said the church has an official library which is off limits to the public. It said the church historian was going through it a few years ago, and read things that challenged the "official" church history, so the church leaders closed off the library to EVERYONE, even the historian.
Do you acknowledge the point that most documentaries about the Church are made by non-LDS people? And that some of these people have their own agendas? Have you seen the 60-minutes piece on the Church? Mike Wallace basically stated that he expected to encounter opposition and redirection when he asked to interview President Gordon B. Hinckley and critics of the Church (both internal and external). He then admits that it was just the opposite and that he was given access to whatever he wanted. Editorial and pre-conceived notions play into how things are portrayed. You can make anything look good and you can make anything look bad.
As for making $100k: That is average pay for a programmer in the SF Bay area. I'm sure a large percentage of people on slashdot make that much or more.
Man I gotta move to SF.:-D
And, at the risk of sounding like a jerk: Any smart fellow in the mormon church could easily have learned enough to make that kind of cash if he had spent his church time on education and not religion. The mormons interviewed for the PBS show said "being mormon is like having two full-time jobs."
And not to sound like an altruistic person: Salary is tied to location and market just as much as it is to education. It has nothing to do with religion. I gladly earn less to live in the mid-west. It's not a question of intelligence and education as
First let me say that I am in no way trying to "annoy-everyone-into-becoming-mormon". If you felt that way then that's your issue. I too can't stand people who force their beliefs on another person. However I respect the right people have to explain their beliefs and counter misinformation.
What I know of Mormonism comes mostly from a PBS documentary or from South Park (dum-du-dum dum dum!) So, perhaps you can help me understand things better.
That really did make me grin and snicker. I love South Park. I applaud your forthright and honest acknowledgment of what you base your knowledge on. Kudos. More people need to be like that. I'd be happy to help you understand better. Hopefully you don't think I'm trying to convert you by responding.:-)
You made your first mistake right there. Church services usually have a part where they read from the Bible. They just only read the happy parts, not the evil parts (where God commands the Israelites to commit genocide on a rival tribe, etc.). Do you read your bible? There are 613 commands from God in the Old Testament. Who are you to pick and chose which ones to follow? I've never seen a Mormon doing a fertility ritual.
I guess I wasn't clear and for that I apologize. I wasn't referring to Church worship services. I was referring to the actual people. I'd be willing to be that if you anonymously polled self-professed Christians about their personal reading of the bible most of them would admit that they don't actually read it on their own. Most I've met admit that they just go by what their priest/pastor/bishop/minister/reverend/etc. tell them. The LDS membership isn't excluded from this either. There is a big percentage of LDS members that likely don't read scripture either. And you are totally correct that people only read/quote what benefits them and their cause. No argument there from me at all. All religions do that. All of them.
What good is Temple to a church if it doesn't teach you doctrine? My understanding was that some of the church histories and other important documents are kept in a temple and not allowed to leave the temple walls...
Seriously-what good is a "temple recommend" that it would be worth $10,000 per year to get it? Maybe you could count the time spent answering my question toward your mandatory annoy-everyone-into-becoming-mormon time?
First let me say that I only wish I made the $100,000 a year it would take to pay $10K in tithing. I know people whose full tithing for the year is less than I make in a month and yet they are fully qualified to go to the temple. Tithing is a voluntary practice in our Church. You are not audited against your income to make sure your are paying your share. You pay what you pay and if you're not honest about it then the only ones that would know are yourself and God.
The rest of your point is trickier to answer to someone who hasn't been to the temple. Part of our temple beliefs is that what you do in the temple is a sacred covenant with God and a covenant not to reveal what the temple ordinances are. Basically "what's done in the temple stays in the temple". What I can tell you is that we are not presented with any church history and I do not know of any important documents that can't leave the temple. There is no ritualistic sacrifice, no sexual/fertility rituals, no chanting rituals, none of the crazy "out there" assumptions that I've seen and heard over the last 20 years. Also there are no sacred texts that aren't known to the rest of the world that I'm aware of. Really only three things occur in the temple. First is receiving your endowment. That's the part that is personal and not shared outside the temple. It's not perverted but it is special to each person who receives their endowment. Second is temple marriage & sealings. There's lots of info on that available if you really wanted to know about it. Third is the temple work for the dead. Again there is info that you can get on yo
I'm Mormon. Yeah let the ridicule begin. Whatever I've heard it before and it won't get me to leave the Church.
The LDS Church does not "DEMAND" that you pay 10% or you can't attend. That's a plain lie right there. The 10% is called "tithe" and it's in the Bible (which most people, even "Christians" don't read anymore apparently).
I went to Church in multiple wards in two states for over a decade without ever paying tithing or fast offering. I was never barred from participating in Church services, theology classes, activities, etc.
It is true that you cannot attend the temple if you are not a full tithe payer. But that's not being denied learning doctrine or being denied attendance or membership in the Church.
Mitochondrial DNA, furthermore, is inherited from the mother alone. Nuclear DNA, by contrast, bears the genetic imprint of two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, etc. Because only one parent contributes to mitochondrial DNA, genetic changes trace backward in a single line, one person in each generation, making it feasible in theory to trace all humans to a single ancestor -- so-called "mitochondrial Eve." Several major studies have used these methods to arrive at the still controversial conclusion that all humans are descended from people living in Africa about 200,000 years ago.
I don't know if I agree that intelligent design is unprovable by scientific means.
Genetic research (real science) is showing that no matter what the subject's race we all apparently have the same anscetry. I'll have to see if I can find that article again to support this claim of course.
I also don't see a point of including intelligent design (or creationism) in the classroom. Why is it such a bad thing to have the lesson be "The view of most of the world's major religions is that all life was created by a higher power or supreme being. Research into Darwin's original Theory of Evolution suggests that all life as we know it has evolved from lower life forms over millions of years." What's so bad about that?
While we're on the subject I'm a Christian but I don't fully buy into evolution. There's the standard (and trite) rebuttal "If we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?". I think that rebuttal is stupid as it's so uninformed as to be pathetic.
However evolution can only go back so far in explaining life. For the sake of arguement let's say the whole world decided to agree that there was a magical Big Bang to create the known Universe and Life. What was there before the Bang? Where'd it come from? What is the origin of all matter and energy? It had to be created somewhere along the line. How does evolution explain that simple thought?
Just my $.02 (US)
"if we were all given these opportunities"?
Are you daft? You have just as much opportunity to take these exams as anyone else (save probably 3rd world countries that use spears instead of CPUs).
Just walk your lazy butt to the nearest testing center, pay your fee, go to the testing room and do it. There's no need for the "opportunity" to be given to you.
Slashdot Mirror
So going back to the beginning: the mormon church requires money to fully take part, and you can't even know the full details of the religion without paying ("what happens there stays there"...must pay to get there).
I can totally see how people would think that. I used to think that way too to be honest as I'm a convert to the Church after being raised without religion. But again this is belief-based topic we're discussing. Scriptural teaching says all things come from God and ultimately belong to Him. We (all Christians not just Mormons. Can't speak to Muslim/Jewish belief.) are asked to give 1/10th of our increase back to God (via the Church). In times when people raised livestock or farmed then that's what they gave. One sheep out of every ten, one bushel out of every ten, etc.. This is no longer applicable for most people and that's how it's become 10% of monetary income. If you believe in the teaching then it's a non-issue for you. But if you don't believe in the teaching then it is an issue for you. The key part is "issue for you". Simply put it's a matter of faith and not a requirement of worthiness to be a member of the Church. By all means you could attend Church and never pay a dime. This was the counter to the original message I replied to.
Thinking from a secular standpoint: that is similar in principle to scientology, but to a lesser degree. Thinking from a prodestant standpoint: Requiring money to fully take part in a religion is appalling. If an essential part of your funeral service (dressing your dead sister or whatever) can only take place in temple, and you can't enter temple without paying big bucks, most christians would view that as seriously cruel.
Again, just to clarify, dressing a dead relative and funeral services don't take place in the temple. Putting on the burial garment is for endowed members. But the loved one is not hidden from the non-endowed relatives and people are not excluded from a loved one. That would be cruel.
As to histories and other documents: The PBS documentary said the church has an official library which is off limits to the public. It said the church historian was going through it a few years ago, and read things that challenged the "official" church history, so the church leaders closed off the library to EVERYONE, even the historian.
Do you acknowledge the point that most documentaries about the Church are made by non-LDS people? And that some of these people have their own agendas? Have you seen the 60-minutes piece on the Church? Mike Wallace basically stated that he expected to encounter opposition and redirection when he asked to interview President Gordon B. Hinckley and critics of the Church (both internal and external). He then admits that it was just the opposite and that he was given access to whatever he wanted. Editorial and pre-conceived notions play into how things are portrayed. You can make anything look good and you can make anything look bad.
As for making $100k: That is average pay for a programmer in the SF Bay area. I'm sure a large percentage of people on slashdot make that much or more.
Man I gotta move to SF. :-D
And, at the risk of sounding like a jerk: Any smart fellow in the mormon church could easily have learned enough to make that kind of cash if he had spent his church time on education and not religion. The mormons interviewed for the PBS show said "being mormon is like having two full-time jobs."
And not to sound like an altruistic person: Salary is tied to location and market just as much as it is to education. It has nothing to do with religion. I gladly earn less to live in the mid-west. It's not a question of intelligence and education as
What I know of Mormonism comes mostly from a PBS documentary or from South Park (dum-du-dum dum dum!) So, perhaps you can help me understand things better.
That really did make me grin and snicker. I love South Park. I applaud your forthright and honest acknowledgment of what you base your knowledge on. Kudos. More people need to be like that. I'd be happy to help you understand better. Hopefully you don't think I'm trying to convert you by responding. :-)
You made your first mistake right there. Church services usually have a part where they read from the Bible. They just only read the happy parts, not the evil parts (where God commands the Israelites to commit genocide on a rival tribe, etc.). Do you read your bible? There are 613 commands from God in the Old Testament. Who are you to pick and chose which ones to follow? I've never seen a Mormon doing a fertility ritual.
I guess I wasn't clear and for that I apologize. I wasn't referring to Church worship services. I was referring to the actual people. I'd be willing to be that if you anonymously polled self-professed Christians about their personal reading of the bible most of them would admit that they don't actually read it on their own. Most I've met admit that they just go by what their priest/pastor/bishop/minister/reverend/etc. tell them. The LDS membership isn't excluded from this either. There is a big percentage of LDS members that likely don't read scripture either. And you are totally correct that people only read/quote what benefits them and their cause. No argument there from me at all. All religions do that. All of them.
What good is Temple to a church if it doesn't teach you doctrine? My understanding was that some of the church histories and other important documents are kept in a temple and not allowed to leave the temple walls... Seriously-what good is a "temple recommend" that it would be worth $10,000 per year to get it? Maybe you could count the time spent answering my question toward your mandatory annoy-everyone-into-becoming-mormon time?
First let me say that I only wish I made the $100,000 a year it would take to pay $10K in tithing. I know people whose full tithing for the year is less than I make in a month and yet they are fully qualified to go to the temple. Tithing is a voluntary practice in our Church. You are not audited against your income to make sure your are paying your share. You pay what you pay and if you're not honest about it then the only ones that would know are yourself and God. The rest of your point is trickier to answer to someone who hasn't been to the temple. Part of our temple beliefs is that what you do in the temple is a sacred covenant with God and a covenant not to reveal what the temple ordinances are. Basically "what's done in the temple stays in the temple". What I can tell you is that we are not presented with any church history and I do not know of any important documents that can't leave the temple. There is no ritualistic sacrifice, no sexual/fertility rituals, no chanting rituals, none of the crazy "out there" assumptions that I've seen and heard over the last 20 years. Also there are no sacred texts that aren't known to the rest of the world that I'm aware of. Really only three things occur in the temple. First is receiving your endowment. That's the part that is personal and not shared outside the temple. It's not perverted but it is special to each person who receives their endowment. Second is temple marriage & sealings. There's lots of info on that available if you really wanted to know about it. Third is the temple work for the dead. Again there is info that you can get on yo
I'm Mormon. Yeah let the ridicule begin. Whatever I've heard it before and it won't get me to leave the Church. The LDS Church does not "DEMAND" that you pay 10% or you can't attend. That's a plain lie right there. The 10% is called "tithe" and it's in the Bible (which most people, even "Christians" don't read anymore apparently). I went to Church in multiple wards in two states for over a decade without ever paying tithing or fast offering. I was never barred from participating in Church services, theology classes, activities, etc. It is true that you cannot attend the temple if you are not a full tithe payer. But that's not being denied learning doctrine or being denied attendance or membership in the Church.
At least we know why all those Chinese "tourists" were taking so many pictures.
I don't know if I agree that intelligent design is unprovable by scientific means. Genetic research (real science) is showing that no matter what the subject's race we all apparently have the same anscetry. I'll have to see if I can find that article again to support this claim of course. I also don't see a point of including intelligent design (or creationism) in the classroom. Why is it such a bad thing to have the lesson be "The view of most of the world's major religions is that all life was created by a higher power or supreme being. Research into Darwin's original Theory of Evolution suggests that all life as we know it has evolved from lower life forms over millions of years." What's so bad about that? While we're on the subject I'm a Christian but I don't fully buy into evolution. There's the standard (and trite) rebuttal "If we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?". I think that rebuttal is stupid as it's so uninformed as to be pathetic. However evolution can only go back so far in explaining life. For the sake of arguement let's say the whole world decided to agree that there was a magical Big Bang to create the known Universe and Life. What was there before the Bang? Where'd it come from? What is the origin of all matter and energy? It had to be created somewhere along the line. How does evolution explain that simple thought? Just my $.02 (US)
"if we were all given these opportunities"?
Are you daft? You have just as much opportunity to take these exams as anyone else (save probably 3rd world countries that use spears instead of CPUs).
Just walk your lazy butt to the nearest testing center, pay your fee, go to the testing room and do it. There's no need for the "opportunity" to be given to you.