You have a choice and by exercising that choice you can change their actions. If you don't buy the wood and, others do the same, they will not sell the wood and won't be buying more from the sawmills. Try that at your local computer store....
JINI, that's great! There was a discussion of JINI at the local JUG and I like what I heard. A JINI firecracker component would be really cool but would the whole application come over? The concept of plugging in a camera and JINI supplying the printer interface so you could print from a camera application but how might you do the X10 stuff? Sounds intriguing.
Windows-only but code for many platforms is on its say. One thing to note to everyone that this is not the full kit for home control. Just a sampler with a neat RF (via RS232) xmitter. The protocol is published but this RF unit actually sends the bits across RF just as they would go across your AC wireing. You don't write "A1 ON" out your RS232 port and get the module "A1" turned on. One has to code to the timing of the raw X10 protocol. They don't even use Rx/Tx for this either, it uses 2 RS232 control lines (CTS/DTR IIRC). This is a great deal for play or to increase your current X10 module base. Maybe we just need a Java version of the software....
Build some access beans for the databases and let them build the applications with the VisualBuilder. I think the Enterprise version of VisualAge already has a DBaccess bean that you point to a dbase and a table then connect the result table to your GUI. Enter the query and have it fired off my a button click and your good to go. VisualBuilder makes apps easy. I built a bean for accessing temperature probes on a serial port. Building the GUI to display the data was a minutes work. This is the way it is supposed to be. We developers build the logic beans and the analysts build the UI using our beans. I even know of some MUMPS developers who figured out JDBC and built an app in a week. This is why Micros~1 is afraid of Java. It is a threat to VisualBasic and CaptiveX AND it is cross platform so it is a threat to ALL its products by threatening its Windows stranglehold.
I would think that if the VisualAge for Java gets a good response, and I think it will, IBM will be more inclined to bring the C++ tool over. Unlike Borland and Symantec, IBM has these tools already running on a UNIX, their AIX. I've heard that Linux is priority ONE at IBM, knocking NT off the hill. The OpenClass framework is a nice package and the new C++ incremental compiler in VA C++ v4.0 is awesome. But then again, using Java for most of the GUI stuff should be fine now that a fast JVM is here (IBM JVM w/JIT v3.0) so the realtime/heavy stuff can be done with gcc easy enough talking through JNI or sockets to the Java GUI. I wonder if the Java2 ORB is talking with mico? That could be a nice mix......
Don't forget that Micros~1 comes out with replacement operating systems about every 2 years. What new security holes will be found in NT 5/2000? That's a history to run a business on. NOT!
I think it is more correct if you add 'think they' to the above phrase:
The idea of deals is that both parties think they benefit.
Did users benefit by getting Dos/Windows preinstalled from 1991 to 1996? They thought so but in reality they were being bound into a contract with Micros~1 in such a way as to tie them to that vendor for the rest of their lives.
Have you seen Magician? They build a OpenGl canvas so you don't need glut or gltk. You write your application framing and dialogs in Java and interface to the native OpenGL system via the Canvas. Why do you think Micros~1 was so bent on NOT supporting JNI? Platform neutrality is what I think.
Me thinks IBM is feeling the waters. The announcement about VA for Java on Linux was a technical preview and will only become a product if demand dictates. Bringing it up to 1.1.7 shouldn't be too far behind. Regarding Motif, LessTif 0.88.1 works too. It would be nice if it was OSS since it is really a OS runtime env. We will have to see what Sun does in the next couple of years. I did find a bug in that the message content window of the JStreet Mailer (www.Innoval.com) has blacked out text with this JVM. By selecting the text it becomes visible. It crashed once on a dialog too. Very good start though considering its speed and knowing the quality of the OS/2 JVM.
I've got it running. Since I'm on OpenLinux v2.2 I needed to download LessTif and install it. To do that you have to be sure it is the libc2 version and I only found a binary tar-gzip distribution. unpacked to/usr resulting in/usr/lesstif. Edited/etc/ld.?.conf and added/usr/lesstif/lib to the end of the file and ran ldconfig. That is it. Runs pretty fast and only feels slightly slower then the OS/2 JVM v1.1.7a. I've had a problem getting JStreet over since hpfs support does not take hpfs's filename correctly. Took me some time to realize that was the reason my user names and mail stores weren't found. I don't have pcmcia support in v2.2 yet since I installed using the GUI install and it says I 'can't get there from here'. No benchmarking yet because of being Inet-less.
Love to see some benchmarking/comparisons posted...
IBMs JVM w/JIT blew the TowerJ code away in one of the recent benchmarks (Volano?). Bringing the performance of the OS/2 JVM to Linux should be a boon to Java on Linux. It would be nice if it was OSS but Micros~1 is still a threat and can not be allowed an inch toward damaging Java. Give'm an inch and they'll take a yard, they've show that already. I think Java will eventually be opened up but it has to become more widespread. It is still a niche on the client even though it could replace VisualBasic today. What does the GPL give you if you can look at Sun's source now and use IBM's JVM with your product? Let's see how responsive IBM is to bug fixes first, they have been very good with fixing bugs found in the OS/2 JVMs.
LessTif just finished downloading so back to seeing how fast JStreet Mailer is on this new JVM. MoneyDance gets tested after that.....
The JVM on OS/2 is very speedy and I was getting quite concerned since IBM brought that speed to Win32. Now its arriving on Linux and with VisualAge for Java arriving soon too, I can be fat, dumb, and happy in Linux just as I've been for years on OS/2. This is great. Now if we can just start seeing some of those new configuration utils written in Java, we'll be style'n. I'd be more willing to lend a hand with a Java-based Apache config util then a pearl or tcl/tk one. Just my opinion. Again, this is great. The download is complete so off to boot into Linux to give it a whirl. Be back soon.....(funky way to download, no single file and you have to click through the license on each file)
See the Seattle Times article Titled "Ex-rival Imprise gets big Microsoft investment". They bring up Sun Microsystems and Java along with other things. Good reading. IMO
Isn't it strange that MS is paying Imprise $100 million for some unheard of patent and licensing concerns? Wouldn't it be natural for a company like Imprise to PAY Micros~1 for using its 'technologies'? This sounds like Micros~1 is buying its way in here, just like they are buying Windows CE into the cable/settop market. There is no market/consumer/developer making the choice here. How can this be legal?
When they lose the current DOJ vs MS case will they be forced to divest in all these things they used the illegal profits on?
They most likely would have split the company in two pieces, one dev tools/technology and the other services. This was planned and is now on hold. This would have allowed someone to buy the dev tools division as it was rumored Sun was looking at it along with Oracle. A far better solution then Micros~1 control and the perpetuation of Micros~1 proprietary operating systems and services. IMO
There is a big difference between competition and restricting competition. Capitolism is about a FREE marketplace. Current evidence shows that Microsoft doesn't compete they restrict competition and so part of business is to call in lawyers to stop illegal activities and reestablish the FREE market. Calling ones competitor into court IS a business practice.
I suggest you go to www.stardock.com and buy a copy of Enterpreneur.
They were found guilty back in 1994 and the Justice assigned to the case thought that the Concent Decree was too weak and provided no remedies for damage done. After months of fighting this he( Justice Sporken(sp?)) was pulled off the case and the case was given to another Justice with orders to sign it. You are nuts for thinking that Micros~1 does not have this power. The road is littered with innovative techologies and their companies because of Micros~1 power/influence. They, in essence, forced Intel to shutdown its Java Media work/lab, force HP in 1995 to remove OS/2 from 50% of its PCs at a Comdex show and to top it off, put Netscape Communications out of business. No power huh?
That might have been secondary. I think that getting Netscape Navigator OFF of the Mac and keeping Suns Java OFF of the Mac were the prime directive. The DOJ and QuickTime were secondary points on the shopping list. Look at what they were doing at that time.
>Anyway their record for multiplatform client >tools is rather spotty - anyone remember >Borland C++ for OS/2 - an orphaned product.
That was really the beginning of the end. After AppBuilder (Novell?) failed in its crossplatform development promises, Borland had to backtrack. It was going to bring OWL to OS/2 and then UNIX via AppBuilder. IIRC. By supporting OS/2 it was now the target of Micros~1. MFC marketing increased, its price was kept low, then the brain drain, etc. Tough road with some damn good technology again a viscous competitor. Funny how a development tool vendor becomes a competitor when its products become crossplatform....Do you think Micros~1 feels Windows is THE most important product it has?
Look, since when has Micros~1 ever published a press release that told the REAL story? Look at the current DOJ vs MS articles and deposition documents. They were even attempting to find POSITIVE data about Netscape browser numbers FOR PRESS REASONS. This wasn't a Micros~1 product but they were going to use it for PRESS REASONS. Bull shirt, this 'deal' is to keep them doing Windows tools till Micros~1 can migrate Imprise developers to Micros~1 tools and to keep Imprise tools off of Linux. Imprise developers would jump to Linux in a heartbeat if the tools were there. Now they won't. The assimulation line is now forming at 100 Micros~1 Way room #42. IMHO
ever heard of the NDA? I wouldn't count on Linux or CORBA technologies coming from Imprise in the future unless there is some sign showing otherwise. This would have to come from action or from Imprise official statements. I see this as a last gasp of breath for Imprise. COM, COM-, CaptiveX and other Microsoft pseudo technology copies will be priority ONE over more open and interesting technologies like CORBA, Java, Linux, and others. These are just my opinion based on how Micros~1 has done business for the past 10 years or more. Tit for tat and Windows is the focus. "Anybody remember Windows?" is still Bill G's battle cry. IMHO
> Aside from a few accuracy flaws, it looks like > ZD finally hired a reviewer who actually has a > clue about "this crazy Linux thing all the kids > are talking about."
I'm skeptical about this and any Ziff 'articles'. The reason has been shown in the current DOJ vs MS case. Just recently a Micros~1 exec was asking for favorable data on Netscape browser numbers "FOR PRESS PURPOSES". Does Microsoft release articles to the press about other companies products and the press publish them? Does Micros~1 have a army of phantom writters who write these 'stories' and submit them for publication? I just think that this shines some light on Micros~1 ability to control the press at any time and on any subject.... I find it fishy that the reviewer was throwing all version of Windows in there and was talking about kernels (technical subject for Ziff pubs) while getting some items wrong. Scully! Mulder! Are you watching?
Make cents. The market seem hungry for Linux so they aren't fighting the press, it's free, it is small and fast and OSS gives it tons of capability out of the box. It even runs on many types of hardware. Couple that with Java and IBM has a software base that can possible run through a very large range of tasks as opposed to having Winodws, OS/2, AIX, and AS/400(OS?) and diffent software for each. IBM has pretty good software engineers and service is now its middle name. Funny how Micros~1 doesn't really fit in this picture. Coincidence?
I totally agree that some applications MUST be run on some operating systems. The ones only on Windows are there not because of the OS's capabilities but because of market perception. I work for one company that is moving to NT not because of its technical abilities but because of perception. This company sells PC preconfigured with the OS and the apps the customers are to run. Simulators and associated tools. I have a friend that started his own business doing portable spectrum analysers and he is using Windows 9x. In 1991 I told them to dump Dos/Windows for OS/2 because of the flat memory and the multitasking. They didn't and haven't because Windows has marketshare. Both of these companies products are essentially embedded systems but Windows is the target for non technical reasons and in both cases Windows has to be worked around to get the job done. Go figure.
I guess all we can do is take advantage of situations where Windows can be removed from the equasion. As I see it, we have to make some moves even if there is alittle pain involved or else little by little, no choice will exist. Micros~1 does a wonderful job paying companies to product Windows versions of things, holding one or two companies up to the public and saying, "Look what the world is doing", then walking away with the prize. Examples are some European Banks, Dell had MS replace WebObjects with NT/IIS, SoftImage, some company MS and SoftBank started to support game developers to port to Windows 95-only games. Many of us can say that no OS fits all tasks but that isn't what Micros~1 is selling and the choices are getting fewer and fewer. Another friend who does hardware engineering consulting had set up a small NT system and was talking to me about replacing it with Linux. This was 6 months ago but now they have thrown Exchange and IIS onto it and are using all Microsoft protocols. Linux or any other software/OS is unlikely now. Go figure....
Slashdot Mirror
You have a choice and by exercising that choice you can change their actions. If you don't buy the wood and, others do the same, they will not sell the wood and won't be buying more from the sawmills.
Try that at your local computer store....
JINI, that's great! There was a discussion of JINI at the local JUG and I like what I heard. A JINI firecracker component would be really cool but would the whole application come over? The concept of plugging in a camera and JINI supplying the printer interface so you could print from a camera application but how might you do the X10 stuff? Sounds intriguing.
Windows-only but code for many platforms is on its say. One thing to note to everyone that this is not the full kit for home control. Just a sampler with a neat RF (via RS232) xmitter. The protocol is published but this RF unit actually sends the bits across RF just as they would go across your AC wireing. You don't write "A1 ON" out your RS232 port and get the module "A1" turned on. One has to code to the timing of the raw X10 protocol. They don't even use Rx/Tx for this either, it uses 2 RS232 control lines (CTS/DTR IIRC).
This is a great deal for play or to increase your current X10 module base. Maybe we just need a Java version of the software....
Build some access beans for the databases and let them build the applications with the VisualBuilder. I think the Enterprise version of VisualAge already has a DBaccess bean that you point to a dbase and a table then connect the result table to your GUI. Enter the query and have it fired off my a button click and your good to go. VisualBuilder makes apps easy. I built a bean for accessing temperature probes on a serial port. Building the GUI to display the data was a minutes work. This is the way it is supposed to be. We developers build the logic beans and the analysts build the UI using our beans. I even know of some MUMPS developers who figured out JDBC and built an app in a week. This is why Micros~1 is afraid of Java. It is a threat to VisualBasic and CaptiveX AND it is cross platform so it is a threat to ALL its products by threatening its Windows stranglehold.
I would think that if the VisualAge for Java gets a good response, and I think it will, IBM will be more inclined to bring the C++ tool over. Unlike Borland and Symantec, IBM has these tools already running on a UNIX, their AIX.
I've heard that Linux is priority ONE at IBM, knocking NT off the hill. The OpenClass framework is a nice package and the new C++ incremental compiler in VA C++ v4.0 is awesome. But then again, using Java for most of the GUI stuff should be fine now that a fast JVM is here (IBM JVM w/JIT v3.0) so the realtime/heavy stuff can be done with gcc easy enough talking through JNI or sockets to the Java GUI.
I wonder if the Java2 ORB is talking with mico? That could be a nice mix......
Don't forget that Micros~1 comes out with replacement operating systems about every 2 years. What new security holes will be found in NT 5/2000? That's a history to run a business on. NOT!
> The idea of deals is that both parties benefit.
I think it is more correct if you add 'think they' to the above phrase:
The idea of deals is that both parties think they benefit.
Did users benefit by getting Dos/Windows preinstalled from 1991 to 1996? They thought so but in reality they were being bound into a contract with Micros~1 in such a way as to tie them to that vendor for the rest of their lives.
Perception is at the heart of "the deal". IMHO
Have you seen Magician? They build a OpenGl canvas so you don't need glut or gltk. You write your application framing and dialogs in Java and interface to the native OpenGL system via the Canvas. Why do you think Micros~1 was so bent on NOT supporting JNI? Platform neutrality is what I think.
Me thinks IBM is feeling the waters. The announcement about VA for Java on Linux was a technical preview and will only become a product if demand dictates. Bringing it up to 1.1.7 shouldn't be too far behind. Regarding Motif, LessTif 0.88.1 works too. It would be nice if it was OSS since it is really a OS runtime env. We will have to see what Sun does in the next couple of years.
I did find a bug in that the message content window of the JStreet Mailer (www.Innoval.com) has blacked out text with this JVM. By selecting the text it becomes visible. It crashed once on a dialog too. Very good start though considering its speed and knowing the quality of the OS/2 JVM.
I've got it running. Since I'm on OpenLinux v2.2 I needed to download LessTif and install it. To do that you have to be sure it is the libc2 version and I only found a binary tar-gzip distribution. unpacked to /usr resulting in /usr/lesstif. Edited /etc/ld.?.conf and added /usr/lesstif/lib to the end of the file and ran ldconfig. That is it. Runs pretty fast and only feels slightly slower then the OS/2 JVM v1.1.7a. I've had a problem getting JStreet over since hpfs support does not take hpfs's filename correctly. Took me some time to realize that was the reason my user names and mail stores weren't found.
I don't have pcmcia support in v2.2 yet since I installed using the GUI install and it says I 'can't get there from here'. No benchmarking yet
because of being Inet-less.
Love to see some benchmarking/comparisons posted...
IBMs JVM w/JIT blew the TowerJ code away in one of the recent benchmarks (Volano?). Bringing the performance of the OS/2 JVM to Linux should be a boon to Java on Linux. It would be nice if it was OSS but Micros~1 is still a threat and can not be allowed an inch toward damaging Java. Give'm an inch and they'll take a yard, they've show that already. I think Java will eventually be opened up but it has to become more widespread. It is still a niche on the client even though it could replace VisualBasic today. What does the GPL give you if you can look at Sun's source now and use IBM's JVM with your product? Let's see how responsive IBM is to bug fixes first, they have been very good with fixing bugs found in the OS/2 JVMs.
LessTif just finished downloading so back to seeing how fast JStreet Mailer is on this new JVM. MoneyDance gets tested after that.....
The JVM on OS/2 is very speedy and I was getting quite concerned since IBM brought that speed to Win32. Now its arriving on Linux and with VisualAge for Java arriving soon too, I can be fat, dumb, and happy in Linux just as I've been for years on OS/2. This is great. Now if we can just start seeing some of those new configuration utils written in Java, we'll be style'n. I'd be more willing to lend a hand with a Java-based Apache config util then a pearl or tcl/tk one. Just my opinion.
Again, this is great. The download is complete so off to boot into Linux to give it a whirl. Be back soon.....(funky way to download, no single file and you have to click through the license on each file)
Isn't it strange that MS is paying Imprise $100 million for some unheard of patent and licensing concerns? Wouldn't it be natural for a company like Imprise to PAY Micros~1 for using its 'technologies'? This sounds like Micros~1 is buying its way in here, just like they are buying Windows CE into the cable/settop market. There is no market/consumer/developer making the choice here. How can this be legal?
When they lose the current DOJ vs MS case will they be forced to divest in all these things they used the illegal profits on?
They most likely would have split the company in two pieces, one dev tools/technology and the other services. This was planned and is now on hold. This would have allowed someone to buy the dev tools division as it was rumored Sun was looking at it along with Oracle. A far better solution then Micros~1 control and the perpetuation of Micros~1 proprietary operating systems and services. IMO
There is a big difference between competition and restricting competition. Capitolism is about a FREE marketplace. Current evidence shows that Microsoft doesn't compete they restrict competition and so part of business is to call in lawyers to stop illegal activities and reestablish the FREE market. Calling ones competitor into court IS a business practice.
I suggest you go to www.stardock.com and buy a copy of Enterpreneur.
They were found guilty back in 1994 and the Justice assigned to the case thought that the Concent Decree was too weak and provided no remedies for damage done. After months of fighting this he( Justice Sporken(sp?)) was pulled off the case and the case was given to another Justice with orders to sign it.
You are nuts for thinking that Micros~1 does not have this power. The road is littered with innovative techologies and their companies because of Micros~1 power/influence. They, in essence, forced Intel to shutdown its Java Media work/lab, force HP in 1995 to remove OS/2 from 50% of its PCs at a Comdex show and to top it off, put Netscape Communications out of business.
No power huh?
That might have been secondary. I think that getting Netscape Navigator OFF of the Mac and keeping Suns Java OFF of the Mac were the prime directive. The DOJ and QuickTime were secondary points on the shopping list. Look at what they were doing at that time.
>Anyway their record for multiplatform client
>tools is rather spotty - anyone remember
>Borland C++ for OS/2 - an orphaned product.
That was really the beginning of the end. After AppBuilder (Novell?) failed in its crossplatform development promises, Borland had to backtrack. It was going to bring OWL to OS/2 and then UNIX via AppBuilder. IIRC. By supporting OS/2 it was now the target of Micros~1. MFC marketing increased, its price was kept low, then the brain drain, etc. Tough road with some damn good technology again a viscous competitor.
Funny how a development tool vendor becomes a competitor when its products become crossplatform....Do you think Micros~1 feels Windows is THE most important product it has?
Look, since when has Micros~1 ever published a press release that told the REAL story? Look at the current DOJ vs MS articles and deposition documents. They were even attempting to find POSITIVE data about Netscape browser numbers FOR PRESS REASONS. This wasn't a Micros~1 product but they were going to use it for PRESS REASONS. Bull shirt, this 'deal' is to keep them doing Windows tools till Micros~1 can migrate Imprise developers to Micros~1 tools and to keep Imprise tools off of Linux. Imprise developers would jump to Linux in a heartbeat if the tools were there. Now they won't.
The assimulation line is now forming at 100 Micros~1 Way room #42.
IMHO
ever heard of the NDA?
I wouldn't count on Linux or CORBA technologies coming from Imprise in the future unless there is some sign showing otherwise. This would have to come from action or from Imprise official statements.
I see this as a last gasp of breath for Imprise. COM, COM-, CaptiveX and other Microsoft pseudo technology copies will be priority ONE over more open and interesting technologies like CORBA, Java, Linux, and others. These are just my opinion based on how Micros~1 has done business for the past 10 years or more. Tit for tat and Windows is the focus. "Anybody remember Windows?" is still Bill G's battle cry.
IMHO
> Aside from a few accuracy flaws, it looks like
> ZD finally hired a reviewer who actually has a
> clue about "this crazy Linux thing all the kids
> are talking about."
I'm skeptical about this and any Ziff 'articles'. The reason has been shown in the current DOJ vs MS case. Just recently a Micros~1 exec was asking for favorable data on Netscape browser numbers "FOR PRESS PURPOSES". Does Microsoft release articles to the press about other companies products and the press publish them? Does Micros~1 have a army of phantom writters who write these 'stories' and submit them for publication? I just think that this shines some light on Micros~1 ability to control the press at any time and on any subject....
I find it fishy that the reviewer was throwing all version of Windows in there and was talking about kernels (technical subject for Ziff pubs) while getting some items wrong.
Scully! Mulder! Are you watching?
>The only MS product running is the OS...I am using 3rd party apps for everything else.
:)
smart person.
Make cents. The market seem hungry for Linux so they aren't fighting the press, it's free, it is small and fast and OSS gives it tons of capability out of the box. It even runs on many types of hardware. Couple that with Java and IBM has a software base that can possible run through a very large range of tasks as opposed to having Winodws, OS/2, AIX, and AS/400(OS?) and diffent software for each. IBM has pretty good software engineers and service is now its middle name. Funny how Micros~1 doesn't really fit in this picture. Coincidence?
I totally agree that some applications MUST be run on some operating systems. The ones only on Windows are there not because of the OS's capabilities but because of market perception. I work for one company that is moving to NT not because of its technical abilities but because of perception. This company sells PC preconfigured with the OS and the apps the customers are to run. Simulators and associated tools. I have a friend that started his own business doing portable spectrum analysers and he is using Windows 9x. In 1991 I told them to dump Dos/Windows for OS/2 because of the flat memory and the multitasking. They didn't and haven't because Windows has marketshare. Both of these companies products are essentially embedded systems but Windows is the target for non technical reasons and in both cases Windows has to be worked around to get the job done. Go figure.
I guess all we can do is take advantage of situations where Windows can be removed from the equasion. As I see it, we have to make some moves even if there is alittle pain involved or else little by little, no choice will exist. Micros~1 does a wonderful job paying companies to product Windows versions of things, holding one or two companies up to the public and saying, "Look what the world is doing", then walking away with the prize. Examples are some European Banks, Dell had MS replace WebObjects with NT/IIS, SoftImage, some company MS and SoftBank started to support game developers to port to Windows 95-only games.
Many of us can say that no OS fits all tasks but that isn't what Micros~1 is selling and the choices are getting fewer and fewer. Another friend who does hardware engineering consulting had set up a small NT system and was talking to me about replacing it with Linux. This was 6 months ago but now they have thrown Exchange and IIS onto it and are using all Microsoft protocols. Linux or any other software/OS is unlikely now. Go figure....