And Micros~1 want to show that $2Billion can build a OS that may be only slightly faster (on a specific piece of hardware) then a OS developed by a bunch of guys in their spare time. Hummmm, are the CFO's reading this? They would have to be laughing out loud at this one.
The excitment around Linux is overshadowing NT and let's not even talk about developer interest. What also is amazing is that Micros~1 has a OS that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and they are attacking something that a bunch of guys put together in their spare time. How can there really be any comparison, test or no test? Linux wins just because it can be used to replace NT in many cases. Plain and simple, but will the public see it this way or the way Micros~1 is painting it? I wish there was a Linux Fund (like the Java Fund) only that the $$ were used for maketing Linux in general. To dispell the damage Micro~1 can do with its PR lies and FUD.
And another thing... What is that with calling PCWeek a neutral location and using them to audit the results? MS Ziff Davis is not a neutral party. Let's do it at IBM or better yet, Intel. Using another part of the Micros~1 marketing arm, Ziff, is unacceptable. I also don't like that they want to compare to Test #2 and not Test #1. After all, the Linux community attacked MindCrap because of Test #1. I feel that Micros~1 knows if the test is rerun, they can't jam it down Linux's throat if NT wins when the results show a drastic difference from Test #1 because that is what this is all about...Test #1 publicized results.
Whenever I have to help someone with a problem and they are running one of the many versions of Windows, I can't think straight. I start wondering if the system is working right or if the label of a button really means what it says. I get all confused, is another application causing the problem, a device driver, or maybe that paper-clip thing that keeps showing up. It is like being in the lower levels of LA in "Blade Runner". DON'T ASK ME ABOUT MY MOTHER!:) I can always look forward to the calming OS/2 desktop or my Linux developement system. ahhhhhh ;)
I agree that IBM isn't marketing OS/2 at the client and hardly doing much at the server but they are still supporting it. Last year they signed a deal the largest bank in Brasil for around $1.4 Billion with OS/2 on the client and servers along with as/400 servers. They still make alot of money from the product and to tell you the truth, it really doesn't need much work. Some new drivers and minor tweaks is all it needs. Heck, it had a CORBA-based desktop, flat 32bit memory, and multi-threading in 1991. Nine years of fixes to a well designed OS should make it pretty good. Did you know that GIMP runs on OS/2? So does most recompiled Linux apps when run in XFree86 for OS/2.
It isn't dead, just doesn't need much fixing anymore. New apps would be nice.....
IIRC it was NT clients that Linux worked best with and Microsoft had tuned NT Server for Windows 9x clients. Surprising because Micros~1 states that NT is the corporate client. Why has Micros~1 not been able to merge the file/print client systems yet is beyond me. It looks like this test will favor NT just by virtue of the cleint choice. Hey, make them OS/2 clients and watch NT serve those. Micros~1 won't go for that because they most likely cripple serving OS/2 and the advantage will go to the more neutral Linux. IMHO
Test #3 still specs out the hardware and that could be a issue. I'd rather see a shootout where only the following are spec'ed: 1)# production Intel CPUs (no over clocking) 2)max RAM 3)Max NIC bandwidth per card (ie. 100Mb/sec) 4)# clients and those should be mixed 5)mixed browser clients too
This way, performance is THE target and just because Windows NT like a Dell with X brand NICs and its drivers doesn't mean Linux can't use IBM with Y brand NICs and drivers. That goes for disk system too. The goal should be who can build the fastest machine in a class and not who can run the fastest on ONE PARTICULAR MACHINE.
Good idea. Integer performance has outpaced the software on all but the bloated Microsoft OS's. Since Linux and Internet Appliances are the future it makes sense to use more transistors for FP performance boosts and leave the integer unit cranking at arount 200MHz with some fast onboard cache. I've been telling everyone to buy the PC around the 300MHz range and spend the extra $$ on the graphics and disk IO system (SCSI). Always good to hear differing ideas, keep em coming.
Linus, tell your boss there is a fab lab that has.18 micron capabilites going for cheap in Maine. Time for some prototyping or sample runs?;) It is far enough from Redmond and Santa Claira I think.....
That is what should happen. Let each camp choose a system and its components then see who is faster. Phase 2 is to then take the loser and run it on the winners hardware just to see if it can get a boost from the hardware combination. Specifying something like # of Intel CPUs, Max NIC speed, Max memory size, and no over clocking. Businesses can look at the results and say that today, system components x,y,z are the fastest when used with the x OS. Not this mock trial that Mindcraft is proposing.
I'd still like to see that NT is really the production NT with just a service patch and not some tuned version just for this test hardware. That is kinda why I don't like seeing the tests run at Microsoft. Too much of a chance that there is a 'man behind a curtain' blowing smoke and moving mirrors.
The way I see it, Mindcraft 'tuned' the first test and even used Microsoft labs to do it. Test #2 took information from Linus and another but Linus stated that he was not allowed to help in person. That lends me to believe that Test #2 was again a hoax. It is most likely that hardware is fixed in NT's favor too so Linux is going to lose and if big names in the Linux community can be held up next to the results, it will only be bad for Linux. If we Test #3 doesn't happen and they hold up Test #2 results, we too can spin that the test was only slightly better then Test #1 and that the Linux community refused to help with Test #3 because the hardware was tuned to NT and that the NT configuration could not be verified.
Microsoft would love to defame the Linux heroes for all the world to see and I say it is a losing situation for Linux. The best we can do is walk away and fight the FUD the Microsoft and Mindcraft throw while attempting to get some independant party to do a more fair test.
Their reputation is stained because they weren't objective in testing. This kind of company does not belong in business. By refusing the test, nothing Mindcraft publishes will be taken serious and they will become the next DataQuest.
It ends, someone seems to have been fired for choosing Microsoft! Yeah! Are the dominos falling?
Both are good RAD languages, but Java is OO
on
JAVA vs. The World
·
· Score: 1
Have a look at the JVM built into OS/2 (v1.1.7a is the current version) of if you are stuck on Windoz then try IBM's new Win32 JVM (v1.1.7). These JVMs are in some cases 2 times faster then Micros~1 JVM and have been shown to be faster then TowerJ's compiled Java. These JVMs both have JIT's and it looks like they may just beat HotSpot if it ever ships. IMHO
If people are paying ~$120 for the LCD why not buy a PalmPilot? The original one and not the Professional either. That should cost about the same but now you have a bitch'n touch screen for I/O and does it can do more. IMHO
IIRC, add-on cards for Sun Sparc stations have the device driver stored onboard and are loaded at boot time via a FORTH interpreter in the OS. A open standard for hardware interfaces to the OS would allow this to happen on all OS's. Well, except the ones from Redmond cause they wouldn't support it. IMHO
Don't forget you also can have a MP3 streaming server called IceCast. I've run the port on OS/2 and it is really cool. Build your own home library of songs from you existing library and set up channels of styles. Bingo, a home stereo system replacement. Well, you might want to keep the amp around, AC/DC just doesn't play well at under 40Watts/channel.:)
There's been talk in the OS/2 news groups that Bamba may find its way into the RealPlayer now that IBM and RealNetworks have joined. Add Xing to that team and you have a more powerful, technically, adversary to the Great Wet North. IMHO
I remember when Chicago was demonstrated, only to find out that it was really just a updated SHELL on DOS. MS smoke and mirrors is always used at the alpha stage of development. Why else would the end product always be lacking PROMISED functionality? They could have been playing wav files for all we know, they don't prove what they demonstrate. Look at what happened when they tried that in the Court of Law.....
Smoke and mirrors. It amazes me people believe even half of what spews from Bill Gates' mouth and any of what comes from MS PR.
I'm with 'The Coward', just like Micros~1 took away Netscapes business model by forcing InternetExploder on the unsuspecting public, we can only destroy them by not buying their software. The more $$$ that goes to Redmond, the more $$$ will be used for things like the MindCrap report on NT kick'n Linux's butt.
Didn't you see who sponsored the test? The name is MICROSOFT. I don't care if RedHat gave them enough information to tune Linux to beat a RS/6000, Microsoft either would have had the test result trashed or still would have 'tuned' Linux so it failed....... Someone might say,"Oops I guess we shouldn't have used those settings. We wouldn't do that again if we were to run the test tomorrow......" Sorry, but you must be a newbie because Microsoft is involved and nothing logical and ethical matters. FUD is the name of the game. FUD kicked OS/2's butt, it kicked the Macs butt, and it damaged Netware pretty good too. This 'test' was to cast DOUBT that Linux can do 'the job'. Bill Gates is spreading UNCERTAINTY everywhere he speaks. FEAR, that is a tough one because it is very difficult to notice someone cowarding in a darkened corner. So a project is killed misteriously by upper management. Who really can say why? Look what Microsoft did to Intel and its Media Labs, tried with Apples QuickTime. Linux is Microsofts threat and history has shown what they do to threats. Linux does need some work but obvious de-tuning of a test system and proclaiming to the world about its defeat is classic Microsoft style.
Microsoft took aim at both of these in the same manner. OS/2 took heavy fire the whole 3 years Chicago/Win95 was in developement and the final death blows came the following year after Windows 95 shipped. No OEM or ISV would touch it. Netware was the next attacked and they have been delt some terrible blows. Not death blows but they are awfully battered. Linux will not survive these attacks if they continue. By SURVIVE I mean ISVs and OEMs will not build drivers or software for the OS. Linux will still exist as an obscurity along with Amiga, OS/2 and others. Windows will dominate. Micros~1 has $$$ to buy whom every they please and MindCrap is just the most current one. ( I was told that MindCrap may have been used my Micros~1 to "prove" RealNetworks was at fault for breaking the RealPlayer on Windows) Says something if it is true, doesn't it?
Penguins need missile launchers since snowballs don't cut it now that war has been declared.
Slashdot Mirror
And Micros~1 want to show that $2Billion can build a OS that may be only slightly faster (on a specific piece of hardware) then a OS developed by a bunch of guys in their spare time. Hummmm, are the CFO's reading this? They would have to be laughing out loud at this one.
The excitment around Linux is overshadowing NT and let's not even talk about developer interest. What also is amazing is that Micros~1 has a OS that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and they are attacking something that a bunch of guys put together in their spare time. How can there really be any comparison, test or no test? Linux wins just because it can be used to replace NT in many cases. Plain and simple, but will the public see it this way or the way Micros~1 is painting it? I wish there was a Linux Fund (like the Java Fund) only that the $$ were used for maketing Linux in general. To dispell the damage Micro~1 can do with its PR lies and FUD.
And another thing...
What is that with calling PCWeek a neutral location and using them to audit the results? MS Ziff Davis is not a neutral party. Let's do it at IBM or better yet, Intel. Using another part of the Micros~1 marketing arm, Ziff, is unacceptable. I also don't like that they want to compare to Test #2 and not Test #1. After all, the Linux community attacked MindCrap because of Test #1. I feel that Micros~1 knows if the test is rerun, they can't jam it down Linux's throat if NT wins when the results show a drastic difference from Test #1 because that is what this is all about...Test #1 publicized results.
Try typing on one of those tiny, little, itsy, bitsy, tiny, weenie keyboards found on WinCE machines. Start -> Shutdown.....augghhhhhhh!
Aren't they all aliens? I know Bill Gates just has to be. And what about that Balmer guy, what a lousy disguise. ;)
Go back and read the small print at the bottom of the page.....
Whenever I have to help someone with a problem and they are running one of the many versions of Windows, I can't think straight. I start wondering if the system is working right or if the label of a button really means what it says. I get all confused, is another application causing the problem, a device driver, or maybe that paper-clip thing that keeps showing up. It is like being in the lower levels of LA in "Blade Runner". DON'T ASK ME ABOUT MY MOTHER! :)
I can always look forward to the calming OS/2 desktop or my Linux developement system. ahhhhhh
;)
I agree that IBM isn't marketing OS/2 at the client and hardly doing much at the server but they are still supporting it. Last year they signed a deal the largest bank in Brasil for around $1.4 Billion with OS/2 on the client and servers along with as/400 servers. They still make alot of money from the product and to tell you the truth, it really doesn't need much work. Some new drivers and minor tweaks is all it needs. Heck, it had a CORBA-based desktop, flat 32bit memory, and multi-threading in 1991. Nine years of fixes to a well designed OS should make it pretty good. Did you know that GIMP runs on OS/2? So does most recompiled Linux apps when run in XFree86 for OS/2.
It isn't dead, just doesn't need much fixing anymore. New apps would be nice.....
IIRC it was NT clients that Linux worked best with and Microsoft had tuned NT Server for Windows 9x clients. Surprising because Micros~1 states that NT is the corporate client. Why has Micros~1 not been able to merge the file/print client systems yet is beyond me. It looks like this test will favor NT just by virtue of the cleint choice. Hey, make them OS/2 clients and watch NT serve those. Micros~1 won't go for that because they most likely cripple serving OS/2 and the advantage will go to the more neutral Linux.
IMHO
Test #3 still specs out the hardware and that could be a issue. I'd rather see a shootout where only the following are spec'ed:
1)# production Intel CPUs (no over clocking)
2)max RAM
3)Max NIC bandwidth per card (ie. 100Mb/sec)
4)# clients and those should be mixed
5)mixed browser clients too
This way, performance is THE target and just because Windows NT like a Dell with X brand NICs and its drivers doesn't mean Linux can't use IBM with Y brand NICs and drivers. That goes for disk system too. The goal should be who can build the fastest machine in a class and not who can run the fastest on ONE PARTICULAR MACHINE.
Good idea. Integer performance has outpaced the software on all but the bloated Microsoft OS's. Since Linux and Internet Appliances are the future it makes sense to use more transistors for FP performance boosts and leave the integer unit cranking at arount 200MHz with some fast onboard cache. I've been telling everyone to buy the PC around the 300MHz range and spend the extra $$ on the graphics and disk IO system (SCSI). Always good to hear differing ideas, keep em coming.
Linus, tell your boss there is a fab lab that has .18 micron capabilites going for cheap in Maine. Time for some prototyping or sample runs? ;)
It is far enough from Redmond and Santa Claira I think.....
That is what should happen. Let each camp choose a system and its components then see who is faster. Phase 2 is to then take the loser and run it on the winners hardware just to see if it can get a boost from the hardware combination. Specifying something like # of Intel CPUs, Max NIC speed, Max memory size, and no over clocking. Businesses can look at the results and say that today, system components x,y,z are the fastest when used with the x OS. Not this mock trial that Mindcraft is proposing.
I'd still like to see that NT is really the production NT with just a service patch and not some tuned version just for this test hardware. That is kinda why I don't like seeing the tests run at Microsoft. Too much of a chance that there is a 'man behind a curtain' blowing smoke and moving mirrors.
The way I see it, Mindcraft 'tuned' the first test and even used Microsoft labs to do it. Test #2 took information from Linus and another but Linus stated that he was not allowed to help in person. That lends me to believe that Test #2 was again a hoax. It is most likely that hardware is fixed in NT's favor too so Linux is going to lose and if big names in the Linux community can be held up next to the results, it will only be bad for Linux. If we Test #3 doesn't happen and they hold up Test #2 results, we too can spin that the test was only slightly better then Test #1 and that the Linux community refused to help with Test #3 because the hardware was tuned to NT and that the NT configuration could not be verified.
Microsoft would love to defame the Linux heroes for all the world to see and I say it is a losing situation for Linux. The best we can do is walk away and fight the FUD the Microsoft and Mindcraft throw while attempting to get some independant party to do a more fair test.
Their reputation is stained because they weren't objective in testing. This kind of company does not belong in business. By refusing the test, nothing Mindcraft publishes will be taken serious and they will become the next DataQuest.
It ends, someone seems to have been fired for choosing Microsoft! Yeah!
Are the dominos falling?
Have a look at the JVM built into OS/2 (v1.1.7a is the current version) of if you are stuck on Windoz then try IBM's new Win32 JVM (v1.1.7). These JVMs are in some cases 2 times faster then Micros~1 JVM and have been shown to be faster then TowerJ's compiled Java. These JVMs both have JIT's and it looks like they may just beat HotSpot if it ever ships. IMHO
If people are paying ~$120 for the LCD why not buy a PalmPilot? The original one and not the Professional either. That should cost about the same but now you have a bitch'n touch screen for I/O and does it can do more. IMHO
IIRC, add-on cards for Sun Sparc stations have the device driver stored onboard and are loaded at boot time via a FORTH interpreter in the OS. A open standard for hardware interfaces to the OS would allow this to happen on all OS's. Well, except the ones from Redmond cause they wouldn't support it. IMHO
Don't forget you also can have a MP3 streaming server called IceCast. I've run the port on OS/2 and it is really cool. Build your own home library of songs from you existing library and set up channels of styles. Bingo, a home stereo system replacement. Well, you might want to keep the amp around, AC/DC just doesn't play well at under 40Watts/channel. :)
Locutus
There's been talk in the OS/2 news groups that Bamba may find its way into the RealPlayer now that IBM and RealNetworks have joined. Add Xing to that team and you have a more powerful, technically, adversary to the Great Wet North.
IMHO
Locutus
I remember when Chicago was demonstrated, only to find out that it was really just a updated SHELL on DOS. MS smoke and mirrors is always used at the alpha stage of development. Why else would the end product always be lacking PROMISED functionality? They could have been playing wav files for all we know, they don't prove what they demonstrate. Look at what happened when they tried that in the Court of Law.....
Smoke and mirrors. It amazes me people believe even half of what spews from Bill Gates' mouth and any of what comes from MS PR.
Locutus
I'm with 'The Coward', just like Micros~1 took away Netscapes business model by forcing InternetExploder on the unsuspecting public, we can only destroy them by not buying their software. The more $$$ that goes to Redmond, the more $$$ will be used for things like the MindCrap report on NT kick'n Linux's butt.
Resist! It is not futile.
Locutus
Didn't you see who sponsored the test? The name is MICROSOFT. I don't care if RedHat gave them enough information to tune Linux to beat a RS/6000, Microsoft either would have had the test result trashed or still would have 'tuned' Linux so it failed.......
Someone might say,"Oops I guess we shouldn't have used those settings. We wouldn't do that again if we were to run the test tomorrow......"
Sorry, but you must be a newbie because Microsoft is involved and nothing logical and ethical matters. FUD is the name of the game. FUD kicked OS/2's butt, it kicked the Macs butt, and it damaged Netware pretty good too. This 'test' was to cast DOUBT that Linux can do 'the job'. Bill Gates is spreading UNCERTAINTY everywhere he speaks. FEAR, that is a tough one because it is very difficult to notice someone cowarding in a darkened corner. So a project is killed misteriously by upper management. Who really can say why? Look what Microsoft did to Intel and its Media Labs, tried with Apples QuickTime. Linux is Microsofts threat and history has shown what they do to threats. Linux does need some work but obvious de-tuning of a test system and proclaiming to the world about its defeat is classic Microsoft style.
Locutus
Microsoft took aim at both of these in the same manner. OS/2 took heavy fire the whole 3 years Chicago/Win95 was in developement and the final death blows came the following year after Windows 95 shipped. No OEM or ISV would touch it. Netware was the next attacked and they have been delt some terrible blows. Not death blows but they are awfully battered. Linux will not survive these attacks if they continue. By SURVIVE I mean ISVs and OEMs will not build drivers or software for the OS. Linux will still exist as an obscurity along with Amiga, OS/2 and others. Windows will dominate.
Micros~1 has $$$ to buy whom every they please and MindCrap is just the most current one.
( I was told that MindCrap may have been used my Micros~1 to "prove" RealNetworks was at fault for breaking the RealPlayer on Windows) Says something if it is true, doesn't it?
Penguins need missile launchers since snowballs don't cut it now that war has been declared.
Locutus