Thanks for this! Both you and the previous poster explaining BGP. So many people have misconceptions on how the Internet works. Then there is the added complexity of business.
I really proves nothing that Netflix over a VPN is faster than without a VPN. We already know Verizon-Level3 peering is saturated. Both sides have admitted it. It comes down to how to solve the problem. It is not a technical problem. It is a business problem
So what if Level3 offers to pay for the upgraded link. If the existing agreement is settlement-free upgrading the link will likely push the traffic exchange outside the agreement. So if Level3 starts sending more traffic than it received from Verizon, then they should pay Verizon for transit of that traffic. Verizon has probably told them that. Level3 comes back and says, "But we'll pay for the upgraded equipment." Verizon says, "So what? If the traffic isn't equal, then you pay." And on and on it goes. So, as stated above, the best thing to do is for Netflix to create peering connections with Verizon that have no expectation of equal traffic. They will have to pay Verizon for these connections.
This is NOTHING new people. This is how the Internet has always worked.
That is exactly why I don't think complaining to the FCC will solve the problem. Just the opposite, it could make it much worse. It is much better to work at the local level. Push for more competition at the local level. Not city owned fiber, but companies like Google that can come in a put in their own fiber. This is where the real action is.
Actually... successful farmers do need to keep up with the latest and greatest and evaluate cost/benefit of those advances. I really hate that people think that farmers are idiots. The ones that are, went out of business years ago.
Maybe you should have read to the end of the article. Just saying. To quote: "If Comcast’s last-mile of cable connection was available to all competitors under the same terms that gave dial-up service providers access to all copper telephone networks back in the 1990s, we would have more ISPs in more geographical areas. "
Fast lanes allow the little guy to have more bandwidth! Less congestion on large backbones is good for everyone. I think the article is exactly right. People have an idea in their head on how the Internet works, but it is not practical or real. Even the little guy can select a colo for a reasonable cost based on the peering of the colo. The is no reason for every little startup to have peering because they just don't have the demand yet. Their transit bandwidth and costs are fine for the time. When they get larger, they could use 3rd party CDN's, then their own CDN, etc, etc.
VoD over coax was using other channels than the channels used for Internet. The thing is, video is not a profitable for cable companies anymore. People have a lot of choices where to get their content. People are cutting cords and therefore can't take advantage of the cable companies VoD service. Cable companies are loosing their vertical integration, not increasing it.
Actually, he was advocating the opposite. He was saying if you want to fix the issue of cable companies abusing peering, create *more* competition. This happens at the local level, not at the FCC level.
Corruption is another subject. But it is much easier to deal with that on the local level also. It is a bit hard because many people don't pay attention to local politics.
My main point was that the stuff is everywhere. A person can setup a license-free 5.8Ghz dish without a license. So the point about "inexpertly pointed" can already happen.
Why are you assuming it was the cable company that didn't want to upgrade the links? Cogent had just as much incentive not to upgrade the links because they survive on settlement free peering. Upgrading the links would have possibly put them outside of the peering agreement. In fact, it was reported that it did! It was a much better idea for Netflix to handle the peering agreements directly. They are big enough now, they can do that. It only helps everyone's connection. It is a good thing.
BTW, cable companies aren't making money in video anymore. They have been squeezed between "cord cutters" and content providers loosing eyeballs. Cable companies *are* making money on the Internet. Especially metro Ethernet for businesses. They already have most of the right-of-ways they need. They have the crews to build out connections to buildings. I really don't think the cable companies care about Netflix other than it will increase the demand for bandwidth, which they sell.
Ummm. That *is* peering. Peering doesn't have to happen settlement-free at the Tier-1 level. Yahoo! peered with ISP's way back in the day so they could more efficiently send their content to ISP's. It was "free" because neither side used their transit connections. The traffic certainly wasn't balanced enough to be called a "settlement-free peer".
Did I say I didn't want *any* oversight? I'm not an anarchist. I just want it easier. End exclusive franchises. Open things up. This has to happen at the local level. So, yes, let the *local* voters decide.
BTW, many people already have microwave transmitters in their house. It's called a cell phone. Also, WiFi is microwave. The FCC allows license free use of some frequencies. For all you know, you may already have a dish pointed at your house.
How does common carrier fix this? In the old days, if I was an alternative long distance provider, say MCI (they paved the way for others), wouldn't I have to make sure that I had enough capacity at the local exchange? The local exchange would "peer" with me. I can't imaging the local exchanges forcing all the long distance traffic to the various companies out of a *single* port on their switch.
Let's put it another way. Say I had this brand new idea for a phone service (the industry term is "audiotext"). I decided I want MCI to handle my calls instead of Ma Bell. So I setup with MCI. Suddenly everyone likes my service. The only problem is that MCI doesn't have the capacity that MaBell has at some of the more popular localities. MCI's switch just isn't as big as MaBell's and the link to the metro switch is saturated. Do I stick with MCI and pay MaBell? Or do I make my own links to those popular metro areas?
This is not common carrier stuff. What this fast lane law is proposing is something completely new.
That what is means to you. Net Neutrality in the beginning only meant that all packets were treated the same. Peering *does* treat all packets the same. Peering is a good thing so that ONE large provider of content can't spike out the connection for *everyone*. How is that helpful?
Think about my example with long distance companies. Even *with* common carrier it was up to the individual long distance companies to accommodate the required capacity at the local exchange. The entire long distance traffic for a CO didn't come out of a single port on the switch. MCI in the early days built out their own alternative path for calls using microwave towers. Phone companies had to pay other telcos to connect calls at the local level. Sound familiar? Isn't that what Netflix is doing?
What you are proposing is not common carrier, but something brand new.
Good. I don't want the local government running broadband. I want actual, real, competition. I want the right-of-ways to be loosened. I want less paperwork, less cost, less red tape. I want local governments to make it easier for companies like Google to come in and build out infrastructure. Or heck, just the local guy wanting to setup a microwave tower on his farm and then run fiber to all the nearby farms. That's the way make things better. Not government owned broadband.
What does common carrier have to do with peering? Even long distance companies of old had to connect to the local exchanges. The local exchanges had only so much capacity on their switches. It would be possible that a call couldn't go over a particular long distance router because the switch was full "all circuits are busy, please try again." This is no different than Internet peering except that Internet peering doesn't have discrete channels for each "call".
Exactly! This stuff needs to happen at the *local* level, not at the FCC level. I firmly believe the government is ignorant on how the Internet works and they will only screw it up. The best way to solve the problem is working with the local city that manages right-of-way. Force the city to make it easier for companies to get permits. Reduce the cost and paper work, etc.
Netflix chose to build peering links. They could have just easily pulled back all peering and started sending all traffic over transit links. What do you think would have come of that? Netflix decided they received more bang for buck when they directly peered with ISPs.
I predicted this would happen. As soon as lawmakers figured out there was this thing called peering they'd freak out and try to control it. The discussion went from treating each packet the same to controlling peering. How long will it take for lawmakers to completely screw up the Internet? Much of what I see about net neutrality is like reading people's thoughts on organic food. Small bits of truth, but mostly junk. Now turn that ignorance over to the power of the Federal government. No good can come of this.
So basically between 1 in 4 to 1 in 2 packets going over the ISP's transit link will be Netflix data. Why would an ISP do that if they have the option to peer directly with Netflix? It makes absolutely no sense. Any spike in Netflix data will cause everyone's connection to be crap. Not just Netflix users, everyone. This is not helping the potential competitor to Netflix, it is hurting them! Peering is a good thing! Please stop trying to regulate it.
Very, very interesting. I don't work in the Windows world, but I will pass along this information about WMI on Windows to the people testing DSC. If WMI isn't right all the time, then DSC is not going to work.
Microsoft de-emphasized CIM? DSC (Desired State Configuration) is entirely based on CIM. It works by creating CIM objects with Powershell. It will create a corresponding.mof file from the provider written in Powershell. Once you have the mof and the provider, the provider can be called from Powershell. DSC will manage the state of the provider based on the parameters passed by the configuration script.
MIcrosofties where I work are all excited about DSC. I think they think is Chef/Puppet for Windows. I don't know that they understand that Chef/Puppet do much more than handle providers. If anything Chef/Puppet would use the CIM objects created with DSC. CIM abstracts the complexity of changing the configuration of Windows. Microsoft provided CIM configuration objects are a huge win for scripting configurations!
I'm not sure that the OMI people envisioned large configuration scripts being called through CIM. It would be like configuring an OS via SNMP. SNMP would be the mechanism to call scripts on a remote machine (net-snmp can do this). You could do it, but why? MS could just have easily exposed the objects directly without going through CIM. The advantage I suppose is that OMI provides an open transport to call CIM objects. Only problem, Microsoft uses WS-Management, not WBEM.
And what if Netflix stopped peering with those ISP's? Then what? The problem started because Netflix was depending on Cogent to have sufficient peering links. Cogent didn't. Cogent also didn't have any incentive to upgrade those links because Cogent likes to have settlement-free links.
In Los Angeles, there is a heck of a lot of fiber. I remember talking down the sidewalk in Burbank. Three man holes a few feet apart. One said "MFN 20K" (which is now AboveNet), another "ATT 20K", and another "Layer3 20K".Admittedly, these are obviously backhaul links, but they were on the same street as the muni sewer. Given how they were laid out, they were probably using the same conduit. Fiber is not the same as water, sewer, etc. It can be done and is already being done. I'm pretty sure AT&T and Charter fiber run on the very same poles in a city.
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Thanks for this! Both you and the previous poster explaining BGP. So many people have misconceptions on how the Internet works. Then there is the added complexity of business.
I really proves nothing that Netflix over a VPN is faster than without a VPN. We already know Verizon-Level3 peering is saturated. Both sides have admitted it. It comes down to how to solve the problem. It is not a technical problem. It is a business problem
So what if Level3 offers to pay for the upgraded link. If the existing agreement is settlement-free upgrading the link will likely push the traffic exchange outside the agreement. So if Level3 starts sending more traffic than it received from Verizon, then they should pay Verizon for transit of that traffic. Verizon has probably told them that. Level3 comes back and says, "But we'll pay for the upgraded equipment." Verizon says, "So what? If the traffic isn't equal, then you pay." And on and on it goes. So, as stated above, the best thing to do is for Netflix to create peering connections with Verizon that have no expectation of equal traffic. They will have to pay Verizon for these connections.
This is NOTHING new people. This is how the Internet has always worked.
That is exactly why I don't think complaining to the FCC will solve the problem. Just the opposite, it could make it much worse. It is much better to work at the local level. Push for more competition at the local level. Not city owned fiber, but companies like Google that can come in a put in their own fiber. This is where the real action is.
Actually... successful farmers do need to keep up with the latest and greatest and evaluate cost/benefit of those advances. I really hate that people think that farmers are idiots. The ones that are, went out of business years ago.
Maybe you should have read to the end of the article. Just saying. To quote: "If Comcast’s last-mile of cable connection was available to all competitors under the same terms that gave dial-up service providers access to all copper telephone networks back in the 1990s, we would have more ISPs in more geographical areas. "
Fast lanes allow the little guy to have more bandwidth! Less congestion on large backbones is good for everyone. I think the article is exactly right. People have an idea in their head on how the Internet works, but it is not practical or real. Even the little guy can select a colo for a reasonable cost based on the peering of the colo. The is no reason for every little startup to have peering because they just don't have the demand yet. Their transit bandwidth and costs are fine for the time. When they get larger, they could use 3rd party CDN's, then their own CDN, etc, etc.
VoD over coax was using other channels than the channels used for Internet. The thing is, video is not a profitable for cable companies anymore. People have a lot of choices where to get their content. People are cutting cords and therefore can't take advantage of the cable companies VoD service. Cable companies are loosing their vertical integration, not increasing it.
Actually, he was advocating the opposite. He was saying if you want to fix the issue of cable companies abusing peering, create *more* competition. This happens at the local level, not at the FCC level.
Exactly my point. Peering is an important feature of the Internet. I really hate how "unfair shaping" has turned into "peering is bad".
Corruption is another subject. But it is much easier to deal with that on the local level also. It is a bit hard because many people don't pay attention to local politics.
:) I agree.
My main point was that the stuff is everywhere. A person can setup a license-free 5.8Ghz dish without a license. So the point about "inexpertly pointed" can already happen.
Why are you assuming it was the cable company that didn't want to upgrade the links? Cogent had just as much incentive not to upgrade the links because they survive on settlement free peering. Upgrading the links would have possibly put them outside of the peering agreement. In fact, it was reported that it did! It was a much better idea for Netflix to handle the peering agreements directly. They are big enough now, they can do that. It only helps everyone's connection. It is a good thing.
BTW, cable companies aren't making money in video anymore. They have been squeezed between "cord cutters" and content providers loosing eyeballs. Cable companies *are* making money on the Internet. Especially metro Ethernet for businesses. They already have most of the right-of-ways they need. They have the crews to build out connections to buildings. I really don't think the cable companies care about Netflix other than it will increase the demand for bandwidth, which they sell.
Ummm. That *is* peering. Peering doesn't have to happen settlement-free at the Tier-1 level. Yahoo! peered with ISP's way back in the day so they could more efficiently send their content to ISP's. It was "free" because neither side used their transit connections. The traffic certainly wasn't balanced enough to be called a "settlement-free peer".
Did I say I didn't want *any* oversight? I'm not an anarchist. I just want it easier. End exclusive franchises. Open things up. This has to happen at the local level. So, yes, let the *local* voters decide.
BTW, many people already have microwave transmitters in their house. It's called a cell phone. Also, WiFi is microwave. The FCC allows license free use of some frequencies. For all you know, you may already have a dish pointed at your house.
How does common carrier fix this? In the old days, if I was an alternative long distance provider, say MCI (they paved the way for others), wouldn't I have to make sure that I had enough capacity at the local exchange? The local exchange would "peer" with me. I can't imaging the local exchanges forcing all the long distance traffic to the various companies out of a *single* port on their switch.
Let's put it another way. Say I had this brand new idea for a phone service (the industry term is "audiotext"). I decided I want MCI to handle my calls instead of Ma Bell. So I setup with MCI. Suddenly everyone likes my service. The only problem is that MCI doesn't have the capacity that MaBell has at some of the more popular localities. MCI's switch just isn't as big as MaBell's and the link to the metro switch is saturated. Do I stick with MCI and pay MaBell? Or do I make my own links to those popular metro areas?
This is not common carrier stuff. What this fast lane law is proposing is something completely new.
That what is means to you. Net Neutrality in the beginning only meant that all packets were treated the same. Peering *does* treat all packets the same. Peering is a good thing so that ONE large provider of content can't spike out the connection for *everyone*. How is that helpful?
Think about my example with long distance companies. Even *with* common carrier it was up to the individual long distance companies to accommodate the required capacity at the local exchange. The entire long distance traffic for a CO didn't come out of a single port on the switch. MCI in the early days built out their own alternative path for calls using microwave towers. Phone companies had to pay other telcos to connect calls at the local level. Sound familiar? Isn't that what Netflix is doing?
What you are proposing is not common carrier, but something brand new.
Good. I don't want the local government running broadband. I want actual, real, competition. I want the right-of-ways to be loosened. I want less paperwork, less cost, less red tape. I want local governments to make it easier for companies like Google to come in and build out infrastructure. Or heck, just the local guy wanting to setup a microwave tower on his farm and then run fiber to all the nearby farms. That's the way make things better. Not government owned broadband.
What does common carrier have to do with peering? Even long distance companies of old had to connect to the local exchanges. The local exchanges had only so much capacity on their switches. It would be possible that a call couldn't go over a particular long distance router because the switch was full "all circuits are busy, please try again." This is no different than Internet peering except that Internet peering doesn't have discrete channels for each "call".
Exactly! This stuff needs to happen at the *local* level, not at the FCC level. I firmly believe the government is ignorant on how the Internet works and they will only screw it up. The best way to solve the problem is working with the local city that manages right-of-way. Force the city to make it easier for companies to get permits. Reduce the cost and paper work, etc.
Netflix chose to build peering links. They could have just easily pulled back all peering and started sending all traffic over transit links. What do you think would have come of that? Netflix decided they received more bang for buck when they directly peered with ISPs.
I predicted this would happen. As soon as lawmakers figured out there was this thing called peering they'd freak out and try to control it. The discussion went from treating each packet the same to controlling peering. How long will it take for lawmakers to completely screw up the Internet? Much of what I see about net neutrality is like reading people's thoughts on organic food. Small bits of truth, but mostly junk. Now turn that ignorance over to the power of the Federal government. No good can come of this.
So basically between 1 in 4 to 1 in 2 packets going over the ISP's transit link will be Netflix data. Why would an ISP do that if they have the option to peer directly with Netflix? It makes absolutely no sense. Any spike in Netflix data will cause everyone's connection to be crap. Not just Netflix users, everyone. This is not helping the potential competitor to Netflix, it is hurting them! Peering is a good thing! Please stop trying to regulate it.
Scientific Linux will probably still beat CentOS to the punch. They did with 6.
Initially, yes. CentOS narrowed and then beat SL with each point release
Now that CentOS is part of RedHat, I would expect that CentOS should be able to keep pace.
Very, very interesting. I don't work in the Windows world, but I will pass along this information about WMI on Windows to the people testing DSC. If WMI isn't right all the time, then DSC is not going to work.
What .NET calls used to require WMI?
Microsoft de-emphasized CIM? DSC (Desired State Configuration) is entirely based on CIM. It works by creating CIM objects with Powershell. It will create a corresponding .mof file from the provider written in Powershell. Once you have the mof and the provider, the provider can be called from Powershell. DSC will manage the state of the provider based on the parameters passed by the configuration script.
MIcrosofties where I work are all excited about DSC. I think they think is Chef/Puppet for Windows. I don't know that they understand that Chef/Puppet do much more than handle providers. If anything Chef/Puppet would use the CIM objects created with DSC. CIM abstracts the complexity of changing the configuration of Windows. Microsoft provided CIM configuration objects are a huge win for scripting configurations!
I'm not sure that the OMI people envisioned large configuration scripts being called through CIM. It would be like configuring an OS via SNMP. SNMP would be the mechanism to call scripts on a remote machine (net-snmp can do this). You could do it, but why? MS could just have easily exposed the objects directly without going through CIM. The advantage I suppose is that OMI provides an open transport to call CIM objects. Only problem, Microsoft uses WS-Management, not WBEM.
And what if Netflix stopped peering with those ISP's? Then what? The problem started because Netflix was depending on Cogent to have sufficient peering links. Cogent didn't. Cogent also didn't have any incentive to upgrade those links because Cogent likes to have settlement-free links.
In Los Angeles, there is a heck of a lot of fiber. I remember talking down the sidewalk in Burbank. Three man holes a few feet apart. One said "MFN 20K" (which is now AboveNet), another "ATT 20K", and another "Layer3 20K".Admittedly, these are obviously backhaul links, but they were on the same street as the muni sewer. Given how they were laid out, they were probably using the same conduit. Fiber is not the same as water, sewer, etc. It can be done and is already being done. I'm pretty sure AT&T and Charter fiber run on the very same poles in a city.