Your are making his point, they had the ability but never released it. However you have a timing issue iPhone was released in 2007 and Nokia did not start Windows phone until 2011, so in 4 years they did nothing.
Nokia not only had smartphones but actually had a marketshare of smartphones twice that Apple and four times of Samsung when Elop destroyed the company with that memo. I know its popular to pretend that iPhone is the only smartphone, but its market share never went above 25% its now down to below 15%.
Using $ is not stupid its for emphasis. It was mostly a thing done for Microsoft, because they print money, and yet offer very little of real value for it due to their monopoly status. They have become a utility. Its one of the reasons why nobody wants them on their phones. I use $ in Microsoft to emphasise where Microsoft is making money for nothing an example would be "Sales down, Micro$oft raises prices radically" http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/03/sales-down-microsoft-raises-prices-radically/#.UNHwpNE49yA
Samsung and HTC are the only ones making squat in that market,
Actually in context of this article, LG and Acer have dropped windows and are now profitable. HTC looks to becoming a Windows only vendor. Sony [Larger than HTC] gains in Android...are offsetting its Windows PC losses. LG is profitable again after dropping Windows. Lenovo; Huawei [also Larger than HTC], ZTE and Lenovo have made massive gains in marketshare....Nokia is now tenth behind all these manufactures. All this in a GROWING market:)
They make massive profits...not as high a margin as Apple, but then that recently lost 25% of its market cap simply because nobody believes that could continue.
Ignoring the fact that Gates is very much still a force in Microsoft. I have never seen "Linux on The desktop" used by anyone who uses Linux on the Desktop, because the "implied massive market share" it needs was/is never a problem, because of its open source nature.
As for it being another opportunity for Linux to grab market share. Linux continues to grow market share albeit slowly, and this was set to continue anyway, but it already has Steam; Diminishing importance of Office on its side.
but as I said my personal experience will change very little. Linux continues to be exciting and evolve. I'm personally looking forward to trying out E17 this Friday.
This reminds me of the early PC days, where one hardware manufacturer would look like they would be set to dominate for awhile, then crash and burn, another manufacturer would look like a winner, rinse and repeat.
There are lots of failed PC manufactures, but then you have the #1 manufacturer HP which has dominated for which has been top five since at least 1996. To be fair Elop had to call Nokias current products crap, and pick the OS as popular as Clowns with maggots for eyes, before it being dethroned from No.1 position. Stick to this failing position even after it had proved a failure.
If they weren't too busy counting their money when Apple brought out the iPhone and had pulled their fingers out and produced a serious competitor.
They had a strategy it was Meamo [and QT] and it was ready years before the iPhone, but they abandoned it for Microsoft which worked out really really badly.
...is it's a slow death spiral of constant consumer disappointments and unmet expectations... with no obvious competitor to steal from.
I'm not really seeing that from Google right now, who are rather bullish right now. HAve they announced they are selling 1.5 million a day yet ?? Or Samsung who are too busy printing money:)
They sold lots of 'dumbphones' and 'feature phones
Actually prior to Elops memo Nokia was making the transition tio smartphones faster than its competitors. In smartphones it was twice the size of Apple...and four times the size of Samsung...and GROWING. Nokia had problems this was not one of then, and its one ironically Android seems the best tool at solving.
I still mostly like Nokia hardware, except for some minor quibbles. Unfortunately it got itself hitched to one platform. The current CEO should get voted out.
Its half off-topic, but I was watching cnbc "Ballmer another Mcicrosoft Fail" http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000136311&play=1 and interesting right at the end it Ed Maguire says "ther have been discussions of stephen elop as a successor. ". I spat me coffee.
Drop? Nokia shares are more than $4 from $1.63 in July.
...and Down from $9 look forward to your dead cat bounce RIM is having one too:). Ironically HTC which rose to prominence on the back of Android is dumping Microsoft, because unlike Android will not support its high-definition phones.
he could see that Taiwan and Korea were already ramping up Android and Nokia would be a me-too....You cannot do both because having too many offerings - a long term Nokia failing - leads to excessive support and R&D costs
Skipping the waffle. You seem to not have been aware that HTC; Samsung; LG; Dell; ZTE; Alcatel; Fujitsu Toshiba; Acer all have offered windows phones. Its not tied to any one product....those look like Taiwan and Korea manufactures to me. Although the list is getting smaller [HTC looks likely to drop Windows phone] simply because of its massive failure....Oh and it has closed all its factories, and has moved production from Finland to China.
Samsung [Then a quarter the size of Nokia...now Nokia 10th largest smartphone manufacture] Bada; Tizen; Windows;) and Android, I belive they are kissing ass and taking no prisoners right now.
Looks like an insane decision then however you try and spin it. The fact that is has proved to be stupid just shows how irrational it really was.
Nokia was in free fall with accellerating market share loss, and lost 70% of their market value (!) in the 3 years leading up to hiring Elop and betting on Windows Phone.
To put that is some kind of perspective Apple have just lost 25% of their market cap in 3 months; Elop taking a further 60% of Nokia's market cap in 2 years. I'm not really sure what your point is, but nothing changes from what he says, all that your pointing out is how much worse things went after Elop adopting a Microsoft strategy in absence of everything else.
Complete non-sequitur. How does anything you wrote refute what the GP wrote?
Don't think you know what a non-sequitur(sic) is. My response was simply stating that he didn't understand what stallman wants, because the AC was implying that Stallman wants the end of these computer and content industries. He doesn't, he wants his definition of free software [although covers DRM; privacy and other topics] for computer users. He advocates change. Even if I was completely wrong its not a Non sequitur because true or false my argument is directly related to his comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic).
All I need to know about RMS is that he looks like a fat hobo who eats his own toe jam. It is impossible to respect anyone like that.
Steve Jobs had to work nights because his fellow workers complained about his smell; Bill Gates rocks like a crazy person while he lies under oath. Linus Torvalds potty mouth is in evident everywhere. I've just focused snapshots on the stars although I have skipped over most of the drug use; racism; bullying; witches and murder. If the best you can do is an unsavoury habit he is in good company. The fact that he has achieved more than you, I and most people should be humbling. The fact that your trolling threads with character assassination while he has started a movement; been lead programmer *personally* on great projects like gcc. kind of shows who you are.:)
They haven't got any choice in the matter. Windows saturated the market to such a huge extent so long ago that the risks and costs associated with trying to loosen Microsoft's grip (and in the process perhaps getting poorer pricing for OEM copies of Windows - in an industry which hasn't seen a decent profit margin in years) simply don't make sense.
Dell have a choice. Those choices are often uncomfortable and risky. The irony of your post is Microsoft still make massive profits from the PC platform. The reality is right now. If I was a Microsoft OEM. I would make sure that every single Windows machine I sell has Chrome; OpenOffice and Steam installed...with a *Supported* Linux option cheaper. Anything else is negotiating from a position of weakness....Other OEMs are simply selling Android, the very thing Dell was dropped.
Well I'm no expert, but both CNBC and Bloomberg agree the at lot of the recent drop in Apples stock price i sou to investors worrying over a rather large hike in "Capital gains" taxes if the Fiscal cliff hits, the want to get there gains reported before that point (well who really wants to bay more tax then they have to?). So my uneducated guess is that Apples stock price well see a nice little rise in the beginning of 2013
Its off-topic, and you need to pay more attention. The only thing certain about Apples three month drop in share value is there is no one reason. The fact is its strategy of perusing profits over market share is now failing. I suspect there will be a topic on this soon to properly discuss it.
But my points were more companies so not exist for the benefits of shareholders interest....I could have picked RIM or Nokia as an example. Whose share prices are going up!!!
I'm not sure how your two point relates to mine "Dell willingly!? under Microsofts Heal" but to address them.
Dells success [and I am happy to correct it] was all about "Supply chain management" with its pick your consumer parts. Dell always had competition [as does every healthy market] pretending that ODMs have any kind of advantage is kind of missing Dells business model. Dell were never innovative, cutting edge, first movers.
As for your whole consumer vs business; electronics vs General purpose computer argument. It simply doesn't add up [and ironically contradicts your ODM argument]. Customers are choosing Android because its pretty good on affordable devices. The fact that its free [patent problems aside] and customisable obviously adds to the appeal, but its the fact that Companies are making *money* because of *Demand* that is why they are choosing it.
Microsoft destroyed many companies through partnerships and allegiances, and Ink may have been used behind closed doors, but the harsh reality is Dell has made a strategic business decision to become an end-to-end service provider [whatever you think of that], and is simply doing that on Microsoft's Platform.
I think the Android market share issue is overblown
Its that kind of thinking that has got Apple a shrinking market share 23% to 15% [Its shareholders have started to notice:)]...while Android is looking to Overtake Windows as early as next year.
Har har, it's really easy to be an arm chair businessman isn't it. Dells phones and tablets had no traction. Dell needs to try something new. It's hard to race with the Koreans and Taiwanese to the bottom of the Android market.
I think you need to think about your post as its not even close to making any sense. Dell phones did gain no traction...Lenovo from a similar position is doing amazing [with Android] having overtaken Nokia. Dell do need to try something new, in the context of the article they are *not* trying something new...they are moving toward their core business. As for you race to bottom...that is called competition, ironically something Dell should be familiar with [and ironically is successful at]. Its how they became great PC manufacturers. As for dropping Android, Asus, and Sony have found that sticking with Android very profitable...as you point out Samsung is doing pretty Nicely too.:)
You are an Apple shareholder, and if you are going to offer commentary, your Android attacks are ironic considering market share is currently six times of Apple with Apples shrinking from 23% to 15%. That is not to say that Android is the only alternative...its just the winning alternative right now. Personally I'm looking forward to young OS's like Sailfish or Tizen.:) they could even start their own like your beloved Apple:)
Slashdot Mirror
Symbiam was a piece of $hit of OS. Absolutely the worse OS every coming out in the last 20 years.
...and Ironically still outsells Windows Phone 2.3% to 2%
Your are making his point, they had the ability but never released it. However you have a timing issue iPhone was released in 2007 and Nokia did not start Windows phone until 2011, so in 4 years they did nothing.
Nokia not only had smartphones but actually had a marketshare of smartphones twice that Apple and four times of Samsung when Elop destroyed the company with that memo. I know its popular to pretend that iPhone is the only smartphone, but its market share never went above 25% its now down to below 15%.
Using $ is not stupid its for emphasis. It was mostly a thing done for Microsoft, because they print money, and yet offer very little of real value for it due to their monopoly status. They have become a utility. Its one of the reasons why nobody wants them on their phones. I use $ in Microsoft to emphasise where Microsoft is making money for nothing an example would be "Sales down, Micro$oft raises prices radically" http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/03/sales-down-microsoft-raises-prices-radically/#.UNHwpNE49yA
Samsung and HTC are the only ones making squat in that market,
Actually in context of this article, LG and Acer have dropped windows and are now profitable. HTC looks to becoming a Windows only vendor. Sony [Larger than HTC] gains in Android...are offsetting its Windows PC losses. LG is profitable again after dropping Windows. Lenovo; Huawei [also Larger than HTC], ZTE and Lenovo have made massive gains in marketshare....Nokia is now tenth behind all these manufactures. All this in a GROWING market :)
They make massive profits...not as high a margin as Apple, but then that recently lost 25% of its market cap simply because nobody believes that could continue.
Ignoring the fact that Gates is very much still a force in Microsoft. I have never seen "Linux on The desktop" used by anyone who uses Linux on the Desktop, because the "implied massive market share" it needs was/is never a problem, because of its open source nature.
As for it being another opportunity for Linux to grab market share. Linux continues to grow market share albeit slowly, and this was set to continue anyway, but it already has Steam; Diminishing importance of Office on its side.
but as I said my personal experience will change very little. Linux continues to be exciting and evolve. I'm personally looking forward to trying out E17 this Friday.
So losing 60% of your remaining 30% is worse than losing the first 70%? Doesn't sound right.
...yes obviously it is. I think you need to look at how shares work...and percentages too.
This reminds me of the early PC days, where one hardware manufacturer would look like they would be set to dominate for awhile, then crash and burn, another manufacturer would look like a winner, rinse and repeat.
There are lots of failed PC manufactures, but then you have the #1 manufacturer HP which has dominated for which has been top five since at least 1996. To be fair Elop had to call Nokias current products crap, and pick the OS as popular as Clowns with maggots for eyes, before it being dethroned from No.1 position. Stick to this failing position even after it had proved a failure.
When that happens, then maybe it really will be the year of the linux on the desktop!
Don't you mean Windows on the Tablet/Phone.
"You can pretend Symbian phones are 'feature' phones, they aren't, they're full smartphones"
A smartphone these days means touchscreen , not just the ability to install apps. You've been able to do that on feature phones for at least 10 years.
You are ware that Symbian not only was full touch-screen, but they outsold iPhones 2-1 before Elop's Memo. A quick look http://smartphones.techcrunch.com/d/z/Symbian
If they weren't too busy counting their money when Apple brought out the iPhone and had pulled their fingers out and produced a serious competitor.
They had a strategy it was Meamo [and QT] and it was ready years before the iPhone, but they abandoned it for Microsoft which worked out really really badly.
...is it's a slow death spiral of constant consumer disappointments and unmet expectations... with no obvious competitor to steal from.
I'm not really seeing that from Google right now, who are rather bullish right now. HAve they announced they are selling 1.5 million a day yet ?? Or Samsung who are too busy printing money :)
It lasted that many years as the top mobile phone because Nokia is tough
They closed the factories, and now have a third party manufacture in China. So Another advantage lost.
They sold lots of 'dumbphones' and 'feature phones
Actually prior to Elops memo Nokia was making the transition tio smartphones faster than its competitors. In smartphones it was twice the size of Apple...and four times the size of Samsung...and GROWING. Nokia had problems this was not one of then, and its one ironically Android seems the best tool at solving.
I still mostly like Nokia hardware, except for some minor quibbles. Unfortunately it got itself hitched to one platform. The current CEO should get voted out.
http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/nokias-elop-hints-more-lumia-windows-phones-verizon/2012-12-18
Its half off-topic, but I was watching cnbc "Ballmer another Mcicrosoft Fail" http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000136311&play=1 and interesting right at the end it Ed Maguire says "ther have been discussions of stephen elop as a successor. ". I spat me coffee.
Drop? Nokia shares are more than $4 from $1.63 in July.
...and Down from $9 look forward to your dead cat bounce RIM is having one too :). Ironically HTC which rose to prominence on the back of Android is dumping Microsoft, because unlike Android will not support its high-definition phones.
he could see that Taiwan and Korea were already ramping up Android and Nokia would be a me-too....You cannot do both because having too many offerings - a long term Nokia failing - leads to excessive support and R&D costs
Skipping the waffle. You seem to not have been aware that HTC; Samsung; LG; Dell; ZTE; Alcatel; Fujitsu Toshiba; Acer all have offered windows phones. Its not tied to any one product....those look like Taiwan and Korea manufactures to me. Although the list is getting smaller [HTC looks likely to drop Windows phone] simply because of its massive failure....Oh and it has closed all its factories, and has moved production from Finland to China.
Samsung [Then a quarter the size of Nokia...now Nokia 10th largest smartphone manufacture] Bada; Tizen; Windows ;) and Android, I belive they are kissing ass and taking no prisoners right now.
Looks like an insane decision then however you try and spin it. The fact that is has proved to be stupid just shows how irrational it really was.
Nokia was in free fall with accellerating market share loss, and lost 70% of their market value (!) in the 3 years leading up to hiring Elop and betting on Windows Phone.
To put that is some kind of perspective Apple have just lost 25% of their market cap in 3 months; Elop taking a further 60% of Nokia's market cap in 2 years. I'm not really sure what your point is, but nothing changes from what he says, all that your pointing out is how much worse things went after Elop adopting a Microsoft strategy in absence of everything else.
Complete non-sequitur. How does anything you wrote refute what the GP wrote?
Don't think you know what a non-sequitur(sic) is. My response was simply stating that he didn't understand what stallman wants, because the AC was implying that Stallman wants the end of these computer and content industries. He doesn't, he wants his definition of free software [although covers DRM; privacy and other topics] for computer users. He advocates change. Even if I was completely wrong its not a Non sequitur because true or false my argument is directly related to his comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic).
All I need to know about RMS is that he looks like a fat hobo who eats his own toe jam. It is impossible to respect anyone like that.
Steve Jobs had to work nights because his fellow workers complained about his smell; Bill Gates rocks like a crazy person while he lies under oath. Linus Torvalds potty mouth is in evident everywhere. I've just focused snapshots on the stars although I have skipped over most of the drug use; racism; bullying; witches and murder. If the best you can do is an unsavoury habit he is in good company. The fact that he has achieved more than you, I and most people should be humbling. The fact that your trolling threads with character assassination while he has started a movement; been lead programmer *personally* on great projects like gcc. kind of shows who you are. :)
They haven't got any choice in the matter. Windows saturated the market to such a huge extent so long ago that the risks and costs associated with trying to loosen Microsoft's grip (and in the process perhaps getting poorer pricing for OEM copies of Windows - in an industry which hasn't seen a decent profit margin in years) simply don't make sense.
Dell have a choice. Those choices are often uncomfortable and risky. The irony of your post is Microsoft still make massive profits from the PC platform. The reality is right now. If I was a Microsoft OEM. I would make sure that every single Windows machine I sell has Chrome; OpenOffice and Steam installed...with a *Supported* Linux option cheaper. Anything else is negotiating from a position of weakness....Other OEMs are simply selling Android, the very thing Dell was dropped.
2013 is going to be the year of Chrome on the Desktop!
Sorry, couldn't help...
2013 is going to be the year Android overtakes Windows in Marketshare.
Well I'm no expert, but both CNBC and Bloomberg agree the at lot of the recent drop in Apples stock price i sou to investors worrying over a rather large hike in "Capital gains" taxes if the Fiscal cliff hits, the want to get there gains reported before that point (well who really wants to bay more tax then they have to?).
So my uneducated guess is that Apples stock price well see a nice little rise in the beginning of 2013
Its off-topic, and you need to pay more attention. The only thing certain about Apples three month drop in share value is there is no one reason. The fact is its strategy of perusing profits over market share is now failing. I suspect there will be a topic on this soon to properly discuss it.
But my points were more companies so not exist for the benefits of shareholders interest....I could have picked RIM or Nokia as an example. Whose share prices are going up!!!
I'm not sure how your two point relates to mine "Dell willingly!? under Microsofts Heal" but to address them.
Dells success [and I am happy to correct it] was all about "Supply chain management" with its pick your consumer parts. Dell always had competition [as does every healthy market] pretending that ODMs have any kind of advantage is kind of missing Dells business model. Dell were never innovative, cutting edge, first movers.
As for your whole consumer vs business; electronics vs General purpose computer argument. It simply doesn't add up [and ironically contradicts your ODM argument]. Customers are choosing Android because its pretty good on affordable devices. The fact that its free [patent problems aside] and customisable obviously adds to the appeal, but its the fact that Companies are making *money* because of *Demand* that is why they are choosing it.
Microsoft destroyed many companies through partnerships and allegiances, and Ink may have been used behind closed doors, but the harsh reality is Dell has made a strategic business decision to become an end-to-end service provider [whatever you think of that], and is simply doing that on Microsoft's Platform.
I think the Android market share issue is overblown
Its that kind of thinking that has got Apple a shrinking market share 23% to 15% [Its shareholders have started to notice :)]...while Android is looking to Overtake Windows as early as next year.
As for your opinion on Chinese Phones seriously you have no idea, Lets have a little look at the best-selling Chinese http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.cn%2F%25E6%2589%258B%25E6%259C%25BA-%25E9%2580%259A%25E8%25AE%25AF%2Fb%2Fref%3Dsd_allcat_wi_%2F476-1550042-9753562%3Fie%3DUTF8%26node%3D664978051 Look at the most popular android phone its quad core [1.4Ghz]with 2Gb or RAM 4.5" screen [1280x720] resolution running latest Android...you need to revise you thinking, as do Apples product lines ;)
Har har, it's really easy to be an arm chair businessman isn't it. Dells phones and tablets had no traction. Dell needs to try something new. It's hard to race with the Koreans and Taiwanese to the bottom of the Android market.
I think you need to think about your post as its not even close to making any sense. Dell phones did gain no traction...Lenovo from a similar position is doing amazing [with Android] having overtaken Nokia. Dell do need to try something new, in the context of the article they are *not* trying something new...they are moving toward their core business. As for you race to bottom...that is called competition, ironically something Dell should be familiar with [and ironically is successful at]. Its how they became great PC manufacturers. As for dropping Android, Asus, and Sony have found that sticking with Android very profitable...as you point out Samsung is doing pretty Nicely too. :)
You are an Apple shareholder, and if you are going to offer commentary, your Android attacks are ironic considering market share is currently six times of Apple with Apples shrinking from 23% to 15%. That is not to say that Android is the only alternative...its just the winning alternative right now. Personally I'm looking forward to young OS's like Sailfish or Tizen. :) they could even start their own like your beloved Apple :)