This (from http://www.debian.org/social_contract) may partly answer your question. However, I wish I could get apt-get et al. to allow me to install from the non-free sections but always warn me when I request to do so.
Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive for this software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of software packages in these directories and determine if they can distribute that software on their CDs. Thus, although non-free software isn't a part of Debian, we support its use, and we provide infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists) for non-free software packages.
All this kernel independence surely would help a company like Sun if it wanted to base a Solaris release on the Debian system. The techie in me drools. But there would be no question of "official" support by the Debian organization, which seems to be the real sticking point with the FreeBSD effort.
Where would you post it? I agree, and I have plenty of gripes (and praise) about/. but no good place to vent them. Vying for CmdrTaco's attention is not an adequate solution./. could benefit from a permanent "reflection" area where people can discuss this kind of thing. Constructively, of course.:-)
If not, how about we set up an unofficial one, or maybe create an alt.slashdot-issues group.
Thank you for an encouraging post. Before Slashdot, I assumed I was too unlike anyone else to be any woman's "type". After becoming a regular, I quickly realized how many are JUST LIKE ME.
But I still doubted that my own "type" of woman existed... until now. I agree with you entirely about introverts' troubles with meeting one another, especially when they want to meet other introverts. Which I do, btw.
I still kinda suspect you are a rarity in that you like to program. I took up programming (after 6 years away) for the express purpose of draining off the excess sex drive. Now I've been wondering what will happen to my career if I find Ms Right.
Oh, and since this thread seems to be developing into a Slashdot dating service (yay!!), let me point out that a couple of turnoffs are people who own dogs (not that I dislike dogs, just wouldn't want to live with one) and attachment to one's automobile. (I prefer not to own a car, living in the city.) (Cambridge, Mass. to be precise.)
You want to c0nf00ze echelon? Just insert a couple of echelon-esque words into random locations in your articles. That will have a better chance of tripping up the search engine.
Even better, engage your friends in realistic email exchanges about (fake) subversive plans.
(Does anybody read the 400th-or-so comment in a thread like this? Well, I'll record my answer here for posterity. Do Slashdot postings live forever?)
I seldom listen to music while coding. Mostly I code in silence until my left brain gets tired, then I switch from the PC to the piano for a while. Of course, playing piano is incompatible with having some canned music going, hence my situation. Now if you ask me what music I play between hacks, my current repertoire consists of:
Moonlight Sonata, by me
The Entertainer, by Scott Joplin
Maple Leaf Rag, by Scott Joplin
arrangements of The Star Spangled Banner and The Sound of Music
A nocturne by Chopin which my teacher gave me (just started lessons again after 21 years).
There are occasional exceptions to the above rule. These occur when I am really, really deep into some code and it's are all clicking into place and I am an unstoppable coding machine. Then one of two tunes starts up in my head:
Bolero, by Maurice Ravel
While my heart is still beating, by Roxy Music
After a while, I tend to put on whichever of the two I'm thinking about. (but it might happen after I've moved away from the keyboard and am just planning and conceptualizing the task)
Both these tunes seem to fit really well with a highly analytic and stateful mental mode. They have a regular, pronounced, but not overwhelming, beat and regular underlying harmonic shifts. They are the opposite of flightiness; they have weight and momentum that will not be interrupted.
Enya is awesome, but most of her songs pale in comparison to Caribbean Blue. If I had the energy, I'd figure out a way to make that one play in a loop. But not while coding (see below).
Here's a quick list of things that would make a newbie go "huh?" during a Debian 2.1 installation from CD.
/dev/hdc You have to specify the installation device. You get a list of 8 cryptic/dev names and have to move the cursor to the correct one. Nothing that I've noticed indicates that the CDROM is/dev/hdc.
dselect You have to specify an access method. I find "single CD" to be the correct answer, but it is not the default. Then you have to specify the device. (Fortunately,/dev/cdrom is the default here.)
exim The exim configuration script is confusing and intimidating.
that newsgroup fetcher I don't remember what the package is called, but the conf script really wants to test the newbie's configuration choices, which are probably wrong.
gpm The gpm conf script shows you a bunch of line noise, asks you if you want to change it, and makes "y" the default answer.
X You have to know which X server to use and you have to know the XF86Setup command.
Emacs byte-compiling You get asked dozens(?) of times whether you want some elisp module byte-compiled. Fortunately, the default is "y" so you can just hit enter, but you have to stay there hitting enter for quite a while.
Well the colo outfit had a special deal for RaQs. NB: I'm not complaining about the lack of X servers but it's nice to pop up an xterm or X-aware emacs from your webserver.
I reiterate that these machines look great for hosting multiple sites, assuming you don't need any software that's only sold as i386 binaries.
Oh and don't believe the marketing claim that it's a 64-bit system. The CPU can run in a 64-bit mode, but the kernel and operating system require it to be in 32-bit mode. At least that it what I grasped of the situation.
I bought a RaQ last year hoping to have another sort of Linux box to play with. It was quite a disappointment. They started with redhat but the package management was broken so you had to use --force-install (or whatever it's called). They had not ported the X libraries, although someone did and put binaries on his site. They had built Emacs, but it would not build out of the box. Getting a working kernel built was a struggle.
Cobalts are great for one thing - hosting lots of unrelated sites. Don't think of them as Linux or GNU systems, though.
It is easy to tell which thing "OK" would do and which thing "Cancel" would do. When you see one of these boxes, it is reminding you of a consequence of the action you just commanded the computer to take. "OK" acknowledges and accepts the consequence. "Cancel" interrupts the action.
Windows gives the interactive user so much control that you can cancel a system shutdown because of an unsaved file. I think Linux would do well to support this model if it wants the desktop market.
And I say "fork", because that's exactly what will happen the instant the code is released. Someone will grab it, rename it, put it under GPL, and isolate all further improvements to the GPL'd version.
What makes you think that? This has not happened with any of the major BSD/X/Apache-style licensed programs (has it?), and those licenses are much less protective of your contributions than TGPL.
If Netscape had had the courage to put something like TGPL on Mozilla, I sincerely doubt that any serious GPL-only fork would have occurred. There's no real incentive to do so unless you have some grudge against the originator. The TGPL gives the world practically every benefit of the GPL, and developers would shun a GPL-only fork as an act of meanness against a company that has done a good thing.
If I were Chip (which I'm not) I would barely give a moment's thought to the Visual C++ port at this stage. Yes, Perl needs to run on Windows. But GCC works fine on x86 Win32, and I'm not sure Windows plans to support any non-Intel-types in the future. Well over 99% of Perl users on Microsoft platforms will never compile perl.exe and don't care what compiler built their binary. And if M$ considers Perl worthwhile (which it seems to), it'll take care of its own. Even if the first stable Topaz works with Visual C++, I bet M$ will rewrite it to ``take advantage of Windows features''.
It took some courage for AC to post his (I believe sincerely held) opinion that this news is not good. The only two other such opinions I saw were rated -1. Granted, s/he posted anonymously and his tone is bitter and condescending. But your caricature of him isn't any better, IMO.
I would feel better about the world if there were fewer space missions and no ``space privatization'' (whatever that means). I'm not sure I can explain my uneasiness in terms acceptable to Slashdot, but the feeling is strong.
> To: corel-linux-beta@internal.corel.com > Subject: SERIOUS BUG in license!!! > > Hey guys, the agreement attached to this distro is all wrong. > It goes against the GPL which covers a lot of this software. This > is sure to infuriate a lot of the developers who wrote the stuff, > and could result in legal action and terrible PR. Please fix ASAP.
Thanks for spotting the bug, it will be fixed in the next release.
the only thing thats needs to be open source in the instance of databases, is the interface...
If Oracle were to put out their source code, before the end of the day I would compile it with symbols and begin stepping through both server and client libs at various API calls in my code, just to figure out what the damn thing does. And I'd be grepping all over it to learn what it can do. Heck if they GPLed it, I'd be submitting new documentation.
The article mentions both open-source and documentation issues but fails to point out that in serious, heavy-duty applications, source code is a very valuable supplement to whatever docs exist. Or rather, the docs merely supplement the code.
About the only app that I think justifies the trouble of having Windows around is MS Access. Specifically, MSAccess and ODBC give ultra-convenient, read-write, network access to many RDBMSs. It's not really an admin tool, just a data browser with some scripting ability, and works with Oracle and all the rest.
Nitrozac, I feel as if you know me almost as well as I know myself. While exciting, this is also threatening. Seeing the comments of others in this forum tends to validate this delicate mix of feelings.
How did you get such a lock on the geekish nature? Are you a programmer? Could you possibly share in my enthusiasm for things like database drivers?
Best regards -Beethoven
Re: RunLevel, yes, it's been done
on
Linux Lite?
·
· Score: 1
I have set up a Debian laptop for someone who never owned a computer before and hardly ever used one. I made runlevel 4 the default. It execs su user startx..xsession runs netscape with geometry occupying the full screen. All ports are closed to the outside (except ssh in case I need to fix something). Apache listens on the localhost interface. A CGI can reboot, run diald, etc. all using sudo. The user account has no password. She can get a root shell using sudo, but she doesn't know that yet.
btw, this user has become an email and WWW addict.:-)
Your proposal for versioned standards is intriguing. I imagine something like POSIX for dlls and GUIs.
However,
Program does a little bit more math calculation than the average. Some of the Developers found a useful libc function exported ( declared as extern void ) in some/usr/include/* file and uses it. Some month after shipping a newer libc is out (Version changed from x.y.z to x.y.(z+1) ). That one does no longer contain that routine. Program doesn't work on distribution X (new version out with that libc) or personally upgraded user systems. You know what happens: "new libc is GREAT, everything works fine except...". Developer probably even gets blamed by the libc developers and others for having dared to have use that routine.
That a declared extern function disappears from one z-version to the next is disappointing (what is your example? did it start with __?) but I think it really is the programmer's fault unless the function was documented in the libc manual. If it's not in the manual, developer should ask the list whether they intend to make it official one day (and ideally submit a doc patch). I am starting to think that a weak point of open source is the ease with which programmers can get at stuff that was never meant to be part of the API.
To the taxonomy of bugs (you know, syntax errors up through logic errors) should be added a higher level: API bugs. Any program that uses an API service in a way that is not documented to work contains a bug.
Slashdot Mirror
This (from http://www.debian.org/social_contract) may partly answer your question. However, I wish I could get apt-get et al. to allow me to install from the non-free sections but always warn me when I request to do so.
Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive for this software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of software packages in these directories and determine if they can distribute that software on their CDs. Thus, although non-free software isn't a part of Debian, we support its use, and we provide infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists) for non-free software packages.
All this kernel independence surely would help a company like Sun if it wanted to base a Solaris release on the Debian system. The techie in me drools. But there would be no question of "official" support by the Debian organization, which seems to be the real sticking point with the FreeBSD effort.
Debian GNU/NT, anyone? ;-)
Where would you post it? I agree, and I have plenty of gripes (and praise) about /. but no good place to vent them. Vying for CmdrTaco's attention is not an adequate solution. /. could benefit from a permanent "reflection" area where people can discuss this kind of thing. Constructively, of course. :-)
If not, how about we set up an unofficial one, or maybe create an alt.slashdot-issues group.
Thank you for an encouraging post. Before Slashdot, I assumed I was too unlike anyone else to be any woman's "type". After becoming a regular, I quickly realized how many are JUST LIKE ME.
But I still doubted that my own "type" of woman existed... until now. I agree with you entirely about introverts' troubles with meeting one another, especially when they want to meet other introverts. Which I do, btw.
I still kinda suspect you are a rarity in that you like to program. I took up programming (after 6 years away) for the express purpose of draining off the excess sex drive. Now I've been wondering what will happen to my career if I find Ms Right.
Oh, and since this thread seems to be developing into a Slashdot dating service (yay!!), let me point out that a couple of turnoffs are people who own dogs (not that I dislike dogs, just wouldn't want to live with one) and attachment to one's automobile. (I prefer not to own a car, living in the city.) (Cambridge, Mass. to be precise.)
Even better, engage your friends in realistic email exchanges about (fake) subversive plans.
(Does anybody read the 400th-or-so comment in a thread like this? Well, I'll record my answer here for posterity. Do Slashdot postings live forever?)
I seldom listen to music while coding. Mostly I code in silence until my left brain gets tired, then I switch from the PC to the piano for a while. Of course, playing piano is incompatible with having some canned music going, hence my situation. Now if you ask me what music I play between hacks, my current repertoire consists of:
There are occasional exceptions to the above rule. These occur when I am really, really deep into some code and it's are all clicking into place and I am an unstoppable coding machine. Then one of two tunes starts up in my head:
After a while, I tend to put on whichever of the two I'm thinking about. (but it might happen after I've moved away from the keyboard and am just planning and conceptualizing the task)
Both these tunes seem to fit really well with a highly analytic and stateful mental mode. They have a regular, pronounced, but not overwhelming, beat and regular underlying harmonic shifts. They are the opposite of flightiness; they have weight and momentum that will not be interrupted.
Enya is awesome, but most of her songs pale in comparison to Caribbean Blue. If I had the energy, I'd figure out a way to make that one play in a loop. But not while coding (see below).
Here's a quick list of things that would make a newbie go "huh?" during a Debian 2.1 installation from CD.
This is just off the top of my head...
Or is there an easier way?
Well the colo outfit had a special deal for RaQs. NB: I'm not complaining about the lack of X servers but it's nice to pop up an xterm or X-aware emacs from your webserver.
I reiterate that these machines look great for hosting multiple sites, assuming you don't need any software that's only sold as i386 binaries.
Oh and don't believe the marketing claim that it's a 64-bit system. The CPU can run in a 64-bit mode, but the kernel and operating system require it to be in 32-bit mode. At least that it what I grasped of the situation.
Maybe things have improved, but...
I bought a RaQ last year hoping to have another sort of Linux box to play with. It was quite a disappointment. They started with redhat but the package management was broken so you had to use --force-install (or whatever it's called). They had not ported the X libraries, although someone did and put binaries on his site. They had built Emacs, but it would not build out of the box. Getting a working kernel built was a struggle.
Cobalts are great for one thing - hosting lots of unrelated sites. Don't think of them as Linux or GNU systems, though.
It is easy to tell which thing "OK" would do and which thing "Cancel" would do. When you see one of these boxes, it is reminding you of a consequence of the action you just commanded the computer to take. "OK" acknowledges and accepts the consequence. "Cancel" interrupts the action.
Windows gives the interactive user so much control that you can cancel a system shutdown because of an unsaved file. I think Linux would do well to support this model if it wants the desktop market.
What makes you think that? This has not happened with any of the major BSD/X/Apache-style licensed programs (has it?), and those licenses are much less protective of your contributions than TGPL.
If Netscape had had the courage to put something like TGPL on Mozilla, I sincerely doubt that any serious GPL-only fork would have occurred. There's no real incentive to do so unless you have some grudge against the originator. The TGPL gives the world practically every benefit of the GPL, and developers would shun a GPL-only fork as an act of meanness against a company that has done a good thing.
Don't be too cynical. :-)
If I were Chip (which I'm not) I would barely give a moment's thought to the Visual C++ port at this stage. Yes, Perl needs to run on Windows. But GCC works fine on x86 Win32, and I'm not sure Windows plans to support any non-Intel-types in the future. Well over 99% of Perl users on Microsoft platforms will never compile perl.exe and don't care what compiler built their binary. And if M$ considers Perl worthwhile (which it seems to), it'll take care of its own. Even if the first stable Topaz works with Visual C++, I bet M$ will rewrite it to ``take advantage of Windows features''.
It took some courage for AC to post his (I believe sincerely held) opinion that this news is not good. The only two other such opinions I saw were rated -1. Granted, s/he posted anonymously and his tone is bitter and condescending. But your caricature of him isn't any better, IMO.
I would feel better about the world if there were fewer space missions and no ``space privatization'' (whatever that means). I'm not sure I can explain my uneasiness in terms acceptable to Slashdot, but the feeling is strong.
> To: corel-linux-beta@internal.corel.com
> Subject: SERIOUS BUG in license!!!
>
> Hey guys, the agreement attached to this distro is all wrong.
> It goes against the GPL which covers a lot of this software. This
> is sure to infuriate a lot of the developers who wrote the stuff,
> and could result in legal action and terrible PR. Please fix ASAP.
Thanks for spotting the bug, it will be fixed in the next release.
Perhaps moderator mode should hide posters' identity.
If Oracle were to put out their source code, before the end of the day I would compile it with symbols and begin stepping through both server and client libs at various API calls in my code, just to figure out what the damn thing does. And I'd be grepping all over it to learn what it can do. Heck if they GPLed it, I'd be submitting new documentation.
The article mentions both open-source and documentation issues but fails to point out that in serious, heavy-duty applications, source code is a very valuable supplement to whatever docs exist. Or rather, the docs merely supplement the code.
About the only app that I think justifies the trouble of having Windows around is MS Access. Specifically, MSAccess and ODBC give ultra-convenient, read-write, network access to many RDBMSs. It's not really an admin tool, just a data browser with some scripting ability, and works with Oracle and all the rest.
Nitrozac, I feel as if you know me almost as well as I know myself. While exciting, this is also threatening. Seeing the comments of others in this forum tends to validate this delicate mix of feelings.
How did you get such a lock on the geekish nature? Are you a programmer? Could you possibly share in my enthusiasm for things like database drivers?
Best regards
-Beethoven
I have set up a Debian laptop for someone who never owned a computer before and hardly ever used one. I made runlevel 4 the default. It execs su user startx. .xsession runs netscape with geometry occupying the full screen. All ports are closed to the outside (except ssh in case I need to fix something). Apache listens on the localhost interface. A CGI can reboot, run diald, etc. all using sudo. The user account has no password. She can get a root shell using sudo, but she doesn't know that yet.
btw, this user has become an email and WWW addict. :-)
Are you, in fact, female?
Backward compatibility accounts for a share too, IMHO.
Your proposal for versioned standards is intriguing. I imagine something like POSIX for dlls and GUIs.
However,
That a declared extern function disappears from one z-version to the next is disappointing (what is your example? did it start with __?) but I think it really is the programmer's fault unless the function was documented in the libc manual. If it's not in the manual, developer should ask the list whether they intend to make it official one day (and ideally submit a doc patch). I am starting to think that a weak point of open source is the ease with which programmers can get at stuff that was never meant to be part of the API.
To the taxonomy of bugs (you know, syntax errors up through logic errors) should be added a higher level: API bugs. Any program that uses an API service in a way that is not documented to work contains a bug.