I knew a guy that worked on the team that designed that "toilet seat".
In reality, it was a toilet cover, designed so that when the B1 bomber flew in combat missions in non-standard attitudes (ie., upside down) the contents of the toilet didn't splatter themselves all over the inside of the compartment.
(It seems that when crews flew these bombers on training missions overnight to other bases, and carried luggage, since there was nowhere else on the bomber to keep it, the luggage went into the toilet compartment, hence broken toilet covers that no longer performed their primary function.)
Once they ran out of the initial supply of replacement parts, it fell to the contracting people to order new parts. Someone felt that it should be redesigned a bit tougher to stand up to the abuse.
So they had to redesign the part, test the design to be sure it worked, and go through all the stuff that entails. All that for an order for replacement parts for fewer than 50 aircraft!
So of course it cost more than a toilet seat at Home Depot.
But when Senator Proxmire was looking for things to ding the military for, the word toilet seat was better than toilet cover, and a picture in the media of him waving a toilet seat he had a staffer buy from Home Depot (or Hechinger at the time, I think) was worth more than just a thousand words.
Like the famous $150 hammer.
THAT one was for F16s, with a requirement for operation in an explosive atmosphere (after all, who wants to blow up a multi-million dollar aircraft with a $10 hammer?) Since platinum can be used as a striker in such places without striking explosive sparks, that was used. Hence the cost.
But when Proxmire noted that one, he failed to mention the explosive atmosphere requirement, as well as the material.
Again, the picture of him waving a $10 hammer was worth millions in public relations, wasn't it?
SUVs are expensive. They cost a lot, and have high insurance bills. Especially if you load em up to have all the bells and whistles you might find on a luxury car. That's a lot if you just want a cool car.
If you're looking for safety, too, then you're right - a sedan is safer, and you'll get more bells and whistles with a sedan, too.
Since most SUVs are built on truck bodies, NOT sedan bodies, and have larger engines (thus the lower gas milage!), they ARE rated for more towing capacity. My Xterra is just a small SUV, and its rated at 5000 lbs. Most autos are rated at 1000 - 1500 lbs., some even lower. Check the websites!
Not dangerous at all, if you pay attention to the rules. I recently pulled a Chrysler New Yorker (3200 lbs) from Washington DC to Tampa Fl. on a tow dolly (front wheels on the dolly, rear on the road), and had NO trouble. It was rock solid, even though it rained partway. Just under 5000 lbs loaded. 0-60 in under 10 seconds. Top speed about 60 - not because of lack of power - I could have gone MUCH faster - but because the rated speed of the dolly was only 45, so I took it easy, kinda...And it'll do 0-60 in 6 seconds without a tow! It's got a 4 liter v6, and I think its pretty 'sporty" myself.
Sporty is a subjective moniker, and NOT what the S in SUV stands for! That's really for "Sport", meaning Sport activities, such as camping, boating, and other off-road activities. So, yes, it is an S!
As for U, or Utility, some SUVs DO have more room than a station wagon (by the way who makes those anymore, anyway?), and many sport tie down systems to secure cargo. They will certainly carry more weight than a station wagon! Of course, it won't rival the storage space of a pickup, but they weren't meant to do that!
It handles very well, has a tight turning radius, and handles like a dream on the freeway.
Maybe ya oughta own one or at least check the stats before spouting off!
Well, having owned a pickup myself, I know that's a common issue with them, at least with the two wheel drives, since they're rear wheel drive. Unless the bed is loaded, the rear is always light.
Of course, SUVs don't usually have that issue, plus, off road configurations are usually 4WD. But, naturally, a 4WD pickup has the same advantage...
Not true in all cases. Not all SUVs are the huge monsters like the Suburban. Quite a few of the foreign manufacturers have much more modern equipment on their SUVs.
But that's beside my point.
What I said was that the cost (and it IS expensive!) of an SUV often forces families to use them as family cars, even though it can be argued that they weren't meant to be such. Whether you get more and better equipment does not diminish my argument. (nor does the cost of cars in Europe!)
Don't forget - those ratings include things like the weight of the passengers in the vehicle, too, as well as the weight of the trailer, not just the boat!
People that pull more than their vehicle is rated for risk accidents, and insurance companies not paying for damages due to you not obeying the law. Read your insurance policy!
The point here is - SUVs are made for pulling large objects, and carrying more people or cargo than the average passenger car. But because they look cool, and look as though they'll survive an accident with a smaller car better than the small one will, people often buy them that don't need the capabilities they offer.
Sometimes those people don't understand the driving characteristics of the SUV, and therefor have accidents because of it.
Don't blame the SUV for the idiots that drive them irresponsibly - blame the idiot. If you have a problem with the gas milage for them, lobby your Congressman.
Auto manufacturers are responding to their market - if people want SUVs, they'll keep offering them. When customers demand better gas milage, they'll eventually provide that, too.
States bear some responsibility - they can pass laws regarding licensing, safety, etc. Again, lobby your state Congressman. If enough of us do that, these issues can be dealt with.
Oh, I didn't know that the average European's salary was that much higher than in the US! I guess that I should move to Europe if I want to afford an expensive car, then.
Look, most of these comments are about SUVs in the US. Most SUVs are bought here, so this is where my comments are directed - towards the US market, and those are the people I'm talking about.
Many Europeans don't even own cars - in the cities at least. Gas is too expensive, and public transportation is too pervasive to make them needed. Not to mention the cost of just housing a car in a typical European city. So why compare that cost? Your last commment is a red herring to my arguments.
1 - define "reasonable". An SUV can pull a substantially heavier trailer or boat than a passenger car can. That's why people with BIG campers or trailers or boats buy SUVs. Some people do their homework and buy an SUV cause it meets their needs - others just buy em cause they're cool. Take yer pick.
2 - You can't take a car chassis and make it capable of pulling what a heavy vehicle can. You can put another type body on it and make it into a minivan, tho. But the gov't CAN change the emissions regulations, tho, maybe they should.
3 - Most SUVs are NOT based on car chassis - they're based upon light or heavy truck chassis. That's why they can accommodate the heavier engines and cargo capacities they are noted for.
And most SUVs ARE made to be off road towing vehicles - you just have to be willing to put out the extra money to put the towing and off road packages on them! It's called "customer choice"!
---and the expense at the dealership is the point. My payments aren't based upon the manufacturer's cost, but what the dealer charges me to buy the vehicle!
And today, most SUVs are built on either light or heavy truck chassis, depending on the model. So if your family used a pickup truck, they were using the SUV of their day...the body was different, but they were using a vehicle with a heavier body, and a bigger engine, most likely. The main difference is that pickups weren't built as off-road vehciles, so the center of gravity was lower. A lot of pickups today ARE built as off-roaders - and puts them in the same class with SUVs regarding bumper height, engine efficiency, and body weight.
And in the meantime, the weight and size of boats, etc., people are using may be larger than what your family used!
If you own a toyota and want to haul a 5000 lb boat, go ahead, but don't complain when the transmission goes out, or you pull your bumper off cause you're using a class one or two trailer hitch to pull too much weight!
My comments were not meant to be all inclusive. I know that many people don't use SUVs for that purpose - I've seen a lot of boat ramps, and I've pulled into a lot of uHaul lots, too. If you've got a small 12 - 15 foot boat, you're wasting your money buying an SUV to pull it, I know. But a lot of folks buy SUVs to pull heavier things, too. That's what my comments were meant to point out.
The issue is, that those reasons are why SUVs are designed the way they are!
Sport = off road Utility = Carrying or towing capacity
Off road use requires a higher center of gravity to allow clearance over hazards, the ability to cross over ridge crests without scraping the undercarriage, etc.
Carrying capacity and towing capacity requires both additional cubic cargo space, weight and power. SUVs are used for towing boats, trailers, campers, etc., and need these additional characteristics to be successful.
All of this is expensive. A typical SUV starts out at the dealership at over $25K, with most coming in at over $35K once you add the additional towing packages, etc. Many come in at over $45K!
If a family camps, boats, or participates in other off road activities, an SUV is often a necessity. But at that expense, many people can't afford both an SUV and a regular car. So they buy just the SUV, or they can afford just one additonal car, so Hubby drives the lower gas milage car to the more distant workplace, and Soccer Mom drives the SUV around town cause thats all the cars they can afford.
At least in the US, the government doesn't have so much power that they can just ban a particular vehicle without political consequences. Not when it's as popular as the SUV. The recreational lobbies would eat them alive.
It's only a very small minority of folks that just buy an SUV as a status symbol.
Our schools are not teaching Darwin's theories as "fact", they are teaching them as part of a continuum of scientific experimentation and discovery from ancient times to the present. Part of that education contains the definitions of scientific theory and hypothesis which should help them understand how we get from uneducated ignorance to observable theories. If there was a credible opposing theory about how species evolve, rest assured that our schools would teach it!
(Note: a hypothesis is an idea some scientist gets to explain a particular observable phenomenon. He/she then designs an experiment to test that hypothesis. Based upon the results of the experiment, the hypothesis is either upheld, or modified. Eventually, as more independant scientists test the hypothesis, it eventually gets honed to the point that it becomes repeatible experimentally. It then can be said to be a theory. Darwin proposed a hypothesis about the origin of species. Over the next hundred years, that hypothesis has been tasted, examined, modified and retested until it is at the point it is at today. So now we call it a theory, not because we don't think it's true, but precisely bacause its been tested and modified so much that we really think it is. It's just that scientists never call theories PROVEN, just tested and repeatable. There's always a change or modification that is proposed that either further refines that theory, or blows it out of the water in favor of another one that better fits the observable phenomenon.)
D) They notice the ring, and don't care, because often the ring doesn't mean enough to the woman, either, and she'll take him up on his pickup line. For some men, it's like gambling. All it takes is the possibility (supported by the rare instance of success) that he'll win. And if he hits on enough beautiful women, sooner or later he'll win, statistically. So to him, it's worth it to look like to a jerk to all the rest.
I disagree with your characterization of the previous post. He was relating his experiences in a post online. As you said, it really IS "just a post on Slashdot..." Such shortcuts, omissions, and runons are considered ok for online posting. Otherwise, posting could take all night! Nobody's going to issue a grade (other than karma!) so why worry about it.
Look to yourself, and let others do the same. Don't flame someone because of their delivery - look to the content!
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
The combination of these two amendments certainly appear to me to infer a right to privacy. Also, if the IVth amendment specifically gives a power to the government allowing searches and seazures under carefully prescribed circumstances, this also infers a right to privacy basic enough that violations of it must be carefully crafted.
Slashdot Mirror
I knew a guy that worked on the team that designed that "toilet seat".
In reality, it was a toilet cover, designed so that when the B1 bomber flew in combat missions in non-standard attitudes (ie., upside down) the contents of the toilet didn't splatter themselves all over the inside of the compartment.
(It seems that when crews flew these bombers on training missions overnight to other bases, and carried luggage, since there was nowhere else on the bomber to keep it, the luggage went into the toilet compartment, hence broken toilet covers that no longer performed their primary function.)
Once they ran out of the initial supply of replacement parts, it fell to the contracting people to order new parts. Someone felt that it should be redesigned a bit tougher to stand up to the abuse.
So they had to redesign the part, test the design to be sure it worked, and go through all the stuff that entails. All that for an order for replacement parts for fewer than 50 aircraft!
So of course it cost more than a toilet seat at Home Depot.
But when Senator Proxmire was looking for things to ding the military for, the word toilet seat was better than toilet cover, and a picture in the media of him waving a toilet seat he had a staffer buy from Home Depot (or Hechinger at the time, I think) was worth more than just a thousand words.
Like the famous $150 hammer.
THAT one was for F16s, with a requirement for operation in an explosive atmosphere (after all, who wants to blow up a multi-million dollar aircraft with a $10 hammer?) Since platinum can be used as a striker in such places without striking explosive sparks, that was used. Hence the cost.
But when Proxmire noted that one, he failed to mention the explosive atmosphere requirement, as well as the material.
Again, the picture of him waving a $10 hammer was worth millions in public relations, wasn't it?
You make some good points.
SUVs are expensive. They cost a lot, and have high insurance bills. Especially if you load em up to have all the bells and whistles you might find on a luxury car. That's a lot if you just want a cool car.
If you're looking for safety, too, then you're right - a sedan is safer, and you'll get more bells and whistles with a sedan, too.
Not a bad thought - but not everybody agrees! Hence this issue is a big controversy.
Temporarily fixed - thanks!
Hmmm, now that ya mention it, that character WAS named something else, wasn't he?
I'll hafta do something about that...like look it up!
Sorry, wrong again!
Since most SUVs are built on truck bodies, NOT sedan bodies, and have larger engines (thus the lower gas milage!), they ARE rated for more towing capacity. My Xterra is just a small SUV, and its rated at 5000 lbs. Most autos are rated at 1000 - 1500 lbs., some even lower. Check the websites!
Not dangerous at all, if you pay attention to the rules. I recently pulled a Chrysler New Yorker (3200 lbs) from Washington DC to Tampa Fl. on a tow dolly (front wheels on the dolly, rear on the road), and had NO trouble. It was rock solid, even though it rained partway. Just under 5000 lbs loaded. 0-60 in under 10 seconds. Top speed about 60 - not because of lack of power - I could have gone MUCH faster - but because the rated speed of the dolly was only 45, so I took it easy, kinda...And it'll do 0-60 in 6 seconds without a tow! It's got a 4 liter v6, and I think its pretty 'sporty" myself.
Sporty is a subjective moniker, and NOT what the S in SUV stands for! That's really for "Sport", meaning Sport activities, such as camping, boating, and other off-road activities. So, yes, it is an S!
As for U, or Utility, some SUVs DO have more room than a station wagon (by the way who makes those anymore, anyway?), and many sport tie down systems to secure cargo. They will certainly carry more weight than a station wagon! Of course, it won't rival the storage space of a pickup, but they weren't meant to do that!
It handles very well, has a tight turning radius, and handles like a dream on the freeway.
Maybe ya oughta own one or at least check the stats before spouting off!
Well, having owned a pickup myself, I know that's a common issue with them, at least with the two wheel drives, since they're rear wheel drive. Unless the bed is loaded, the rear is always light.
Of course, SUVs don't usually have that issue, plus, off road configurations are usually 4WD. But, naturally, a 4WD pickup has the same advantage...
Now that comment makes no sense.
If you already have the SUV, you don't need to sell it to pull the trailer or boat.
What you mean by the rest of your comment, only you and the good Lord know for sure...
A few of us Luddites in the US...;-)
Not true in all cases. Not all SUVs are the huge monsters like the Suburban. Quite a few of the foreign manufacturers have much more modern equipment on their SUVs.
But that's beside my point.
What I said was that the cost (and it IS expensive!) of an SUV often forces families to use them as family cars, even though it can be argued that they weren't meant to be such. Whether you get more and better equipment does not diminish my argument. (nor does the cost of cars in Europe!)
Don't forget - those ratings include things like the weight of the passengers in the vehicle, too, as well as the weight of the trailer, not just the boat!
People that pull more than their vehicle is rated for risk accidents, and insurance companies not paying for damages due to you not obeying the law. Read your insurance policy!
The point here is - SUVs are made for pulling large objects, and carrying more people or cargo than the average passenger car. But because they look cool, and look as though they'll survive an accident with a smaller car better than the small one will, people often buy them that don't need the capabilities they offer.
Sometimes those people don't understand the driving characteristics of the SUV, and therefor have accidents because of it.
Don't blame the SUV for the idiots that drive them irresponsibly - blame the idiot. If you have a problem with the gas milage for them, lobby your Congressman.
Auto manufacturers are responding to their market - if people want SUVs, they'll keep offering them. When customers demand better gas milage, they'll eventually provide that, too.
States bear some responsibility - they can pass laws regarding licensing, safety, etc. Again, lobby your state Congressman. If enough of us do that, these issues can be dealt with.
I DID use the word "often". That means the comment was not all inclusive. You just chose to interpret it that way.
Oh, I didn't know that the average European's salary was that much higher than in the US! I guess that I should move to Europe if I want to afford an expensive car, then.
Look, most of these comments are about SUVs in the US. Most SUVs are bought here, so this is where my comments are directed - towards the US market, and those are the people I'm talking about.
Many Europeans don't even own cars - in the cities at least. Gas is too expensive, and public transportation is too pervasive to make them needed. Not to mention the cost of just housing a car in a typical European city. So why compare that cost? Your last commment is a red herring to my arguments.
1 - define "reasonable". An SUV can pull a substantially heavier trailer or boat than a passenger car can. That's why people with BIG campers or trailers or boats buy SUVs. Some people do their homework and buy an SUV cause it meets their needs - others just buy em cause they're cool. Take yer pick.
2 - You can't take a car chassis and make it capable of pulling what a heavy vehicle can. You can put another type body on it and make it into a minivan, tho. But the gov't CAN change the emissions regulations, tho, maybe they should.
3 - Most SUVs are NOT based on car chassis - they're based upon light or heavy truck chassis. That's why they can accommodate the heavier engines and cargo capacities they are noted for.
And most SUVs ARE made to be off road towing vehicles - you just have to be willing to put out the extra money to put the towing and off road packages on them! It's called "customer choice"!
Hmmm, if you own a boat or camper that weighs more than a standard passenger car can handle, you might want a vehicle that CAN pull it.
Notice I said "often". I didn't say "always".
---and the expense at the dealership is the point. My payments aren't based upon the manufacturer's cost, but what the dealer charges me to buy the vehicle!
And today, most SUVs are built on either light or heavy truck chassis, depending on the model. So if your family used a pickup truck, they were using the SUV of their day...the body was different, but they were using a vehicle with a heavier body, and a bigger engine, most likely. The main difference is that pickups weren't built as off-road vehciles, so the center of gravity was lower. A lot of pickups today ARE built as off-roaders - and puts them in the same class with SUVs regarding bumper height, engine efficiency, and body weight.
Should we outlaw pickups, too?
And in the meantime, the weight and size of boats, etc., people are using may be larger than what your family used!
If you own a toyota and want to haul a 5000 lb boat, go ahead, but don't complain when the transmission goes out, or you pull your bumper off cause you're using a class one or two trailer hitch to pull too much weight!
My comments were not meant to be all inclusive. I know that many people don't use SUVs for that purpose - I've seen a lot of boat ramps, and I've pulled into a lot of uHaul lots, too. If you've got a small 12 - 15 foot boat, you're wasting your money buying an SUV to pull it, I know. But a lot of folks buy SUVs to pull heavier things, too. That's what my comments were meant to point out.
The issue is, that those reasons are why SUVs are designed the way they are!
FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!
Take your BS comments and get a life.
SUV = Sport Utility Vehicle
Sport = off road
Utility = Carrying or towing capacity
Off road use requires a higher center of gravity to allow clearance over hazards, the ability to cross over ridge crests without scraping the undercarriage, etc.
Carrying capacity and towing capacity requires both additional cubic cargo space, weight and power. SUVs are used for towing boats, trailers, campers, etc., and need these additional characteristics to be successful.
All of this is expensive. A typical SUV starts out at the dealership at over $25K, with most coming in at over $35K once you add the additional towing packages, etc. Many come in at over $45K!
If a family camps, boats, or participates in other off road activities, an SUV is often a necessity. But at that expense, many people can't afford both an SUV and a regular car. So they buy just the SUV, or they can afford just one additonal car, so Hubby drives the lower gas milage car to the more distant workplace, and Soccer Mom drives the SUV around town cause thats all the cars they can afford.
At least in the US, the government doesn't have so much power that they can just ban a particular vehicle without political consequences. Not when it's as popular as the SUV. The recreational lobbies would eat them alive.
It's only a very small minority of folks that just buy an SUV as a status symbol.
I would imagine that he means 32 degrees Faranheit, which is the freezing point of water - vs the 0 degrees Celsius you obviously mean...
Our schools are not teaching Darwin's theories as "fact", they are teaching them as part of a continuum of scientific experimentation and discovery from ancient times to the present. Part of that education contains the definitions of scientific theory and hypothesis which should help them understand how we get from uneducated ignorance to observable theories. If there was a credible opposing theory about how species evolve, rest assured that our schools would teach it!
(Note: a hypothesis is an idea some scientist gets to explain a particular observable phenomenon. He/she then designs an experiment to test that hypothesis. Based upon the results of the experiment, the hypothesis is either upheld, or modified. Eventually, as more independant scientists test the hypothesis, it eventually gets honed to the point that it becomes repeatible experimentally. It then can be said to be a theory. Darwin proposed a hypothesis about the origin of species. Over the next hundred years, that hypothesis has been tasted, examined, modified and retested until it is at the point it is at today. So now we call it a theory, not because we don't think it's true, but precisely bacause its been tested and modified so much that we really think it is. It's just that scientists never call theories PROVEN, just tested and repeatable. There's always a change or modification that is proposed that either further refines that theory, or blows it out of the water in favor of another one that better fits the observable phenomenon.)
D) They notice the ring, and don't care, because often the ring doesn't mean enough to the woman, either, and she'll take him up on his pickup line. For some men, it's like gambling. All it takes is the possibility (supported by the rare instance of success) that he'll win. And if he hits on enough beautiful women, sooner or later he'll win, statistically. So to him, it's worth it to look like to a jerk to all the rest.
I disagree with your characterization of the previous post. He was relating his experiences in a post online. As you said, it really IS "just a post on Slashdot..." Such shortcuts, omissions, and runons are considered ok for online posting. Otherwise, posting could take all night! Nobody's going to issue a grade (other than karma!) so why worry about it. Look to yourself, and let others do the same. Don't flame someone because of their delivery - look to the content!
Try this:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
The combination of these two amendments certainly appear to me to infer a right to privacy. Also, if the IVth amendment specifically gives a power to the government allowing searches and seazures under carefully prescribed circumstances, this also infers a right to privacy basic enough that violations of it must be carefully crafted.