The point that they are doing "IN THE NAME OF ISLAM" is moot, because everyone does what they do because of what they believe in. You cannot divorce the two. I don't have the time to go into it, either, but the issue is much, much more than just a few cartoons in Denmark. Anything that occurs in these countries is the result of years of pent-up frustration for a variety of issues.
Was the looting and violence that occurred after Hurricane Katrina indicative of the worse nature of the people of New Orleans, or rather can it be attributed to other reasons? Likewise, few people take a moment to ask the reasons behind the actions, preferring to believe what validates their own world view. Looking throughout this thread, you'll find the term "savages" and "terrorists" thrown about like candy, yet the same behavior existed in other times and other places and the same terminology was never used. However, it doesn't serve the current agendas to look into the conditions of these people, because it would reveal a far more complex reality than most people are willing to accept.
Now, having said that, I will state here clearly and unambiguously that I DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORISM NOR THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. But I am also not going to assume that those that perpetrate such actions get these ideas or concepts from a vacuum, because people are not inherently violent. I have to wonder what oppressions exist in their own countries, and what their conditions of life are.
With regards to their protests being directed to the US and The West, I would hazard to guess that their own governments don't mind that they burn out their rage for their own incompetent governing on other targets, as long as they do not direct it towards them (which, in most of these countries, would mean imprisonment, torture, and so on - and don't even think this has anything to do with Islam). So the people take the route that is easiest for them, knowing the kernel of truth in that their governments are more friendly than they have to be with the US. Given the fact that many of these governments are puppies to the US government, this is not difficult to understand.
Am I defending any of those? No. But I think a little explanation goes a long way. You don't have to accept it, but I sure wish more people at least knew it.
It is wonderful that you have quoted all of 7 verses from the Qur'aan. Out of over 6600. Let us double that number to 14, or take it even to 100. That means that less than 3% of the Qur'aan is discussing fighting non-believers, transgressors, and "infidels" (even though this is not a term used in Arabic).
Also, you failed to mention verses such as these:
Patience
Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded, (2:45)
Said Moses to his people: "Pray for help from Allah, and (wait) in patience and constancy: for the earth is Allah's, to give as a heritage to such of His servants as He pleaseth; and the end is (best) for the righteous. (7:128)
And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune. (41:35)
Transgression
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (2:190)
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)(2:193)
What is different about Islam from other religions is that it is one from the ground up - it is applicable to the individual all the way up to state. This is not, of course, a well-appreciated concept now due to the severe abuses of religion in government in the past several hundred years. But, when applied properly, you have a situation where even the Jews (commonly seen to be the "enemies" of Muslims) were able to seek refuge amongst the Muslims in Spain from the Inquisition. In fact, though disputed, it is argued that European Jews experienced a Golden Age under the rule of Muslims.
Is Islam free from controversy? Of course not! With a history of over 1400 years, how could it be? But modern politics and the growing divide between the Western World and the Islamic world are constantly putting any event remotely negative into the spotlight, so it gets increasingly more-and-more difficult to approach the issues objectively anymore. I have an obviously vested interest in the issue, and I'm sure most others do to.
I welcome anyone to e-mail me if they are sincerely interested in learning more about the religion of Islam. My e-mail is abu_hurayrah ATT hidayahonline DOTT org. I figure Slashdotters can see through that kind of an obfuscation...;)
The logic behind this is that we are all guilty by association unless we openly denounce every action that is done by a Muslim. My own actions are no longer sufficient by which someone can judge my character. Rather, I must be running around, denouncing this, denouncing that, because there are over 1 billion people out there. I cannot possibly keep track of everything, but those that wish to affirm their own stereotypes feel comfortable in taking this route as an excuse.
Many people close to my family are evangelical Christians, yet I don't ask for nor look for apologies from them whenever Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or any other well-known & public evangelist spouts something offensive and/or demeaning. Why? Because I base my opinion of someone by their own character, and not the actions of others.
Okay, let's prefix this with the crucial information. If it's not obvious from my username (I registered just to reply to some comments in this discussion), I am a Muslim. I was born into a Muslim family and I've lived in the US (same house, actually), all my life.
The issues you are discussing - the "revenge rape", poor administration, lack of understanding of the religion - and I can add a thousand other things - are issues that disgust Muslims as well as non-Muslims. These are societal as well as cultural issues. But they do not come from the religion itself, despite what people may claim. Every country that has a significant Muslim population has a plethora of problems such as you have described, unique to their areas. And this is no different from countries where problems such as drug abuse, rape, crime, ignorance, and other social ills exist, Muslim or not, in the West, East, or anywhere else. Moreover, these are not issues that are unique to Muslim countries. We just love to eat it up here, that's all.
Keep in mind, as well, that the set of people we're talking about is over 1 billion.
I am not defending these actions, but I do wish to put them in perspective when my population is marginalized and unjustly stereotyped. I doubt I fit in with the "modern" or "moderate" Muslim genre - I despise that term because of the implication - but I am an American and I have the unique opportunity to see these kinds of issues from both sides.
Flame on if you will, but there's only so much one can see without commenting.
Slashdot Mirror
The point that they are doing "IN THE NAME OF ISLAM" is moot, because everyone does what they do because of what they believe in. You cannot divorce the two. I don't have the time to go into it, either, but the issue is much, much more than just a few cartoons in Denmark. Anything that occurs in these countries is the result of years of pent-up frustration for a variety of issues.
Was the looting and violence that occurred after Hurricane Katrina indicative of the worse nature of the people of New Orleans, or rather can it be attributed to other reasons? Likewise, few people take a moment to ask the reasons behind the actions, preferring to believe what validates their own world view. Looking throughout this thread, you'll find the term "savages" and "terrorists" thrown about like candy, yet the same behavior existed in other times and other places and the same terminology was never used. However, it doesn't serve the current agendas to look into the conditions of these people, because it would reveal a far more complex reality than most people are willing to accept.
Now, having said that, I will state here clearly and unambiguously that I DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORISM NOR THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. But I am also not going to assume that those that perpetrate such actions get these ideas or concepts from a vacuum, because people are not inherently violent. I have to wonder what oppressions exist in their own countries, and what their conditions of life are.
With regards to their protests being directed to the US and The West, I would hazard to guess that their own governments don't mind that they burn out their rage for their own incompetent governing on other targets, as long as they do not direct it towards them (which, in most of these countries, would mean imprisonment, torture, and so on - and don't even think this has anything to do with Islam). So the people take the route that is easiest for them, knowing the kernel of truth in that their governments are more friendly than they have to be with the US. Given the fact that many of these governments are puppies to the US government, this is not difficult to understand.
Am I defending any of those? No. But I think a little explanation goes a long way. You don't have to accept it, but I sure wish more people at least knew it.
It is wonderful that you have quoted all of 7 verses from the Qur'aan. Out of over 6600. Let us double that number to 14, or take it even to 100. That means that less than 3% of the Qur'aan is discussing fighting non-believers, transgressors, and "infidels" (even though this is not a term used in Arabic).
Also, you failed to mention verses such as these:
What is different about Islam from other religions is that it is one from the ground up - it is applicable to the individual all the way up to state. This is not, of course, a well-appreciated concept now due to the severe abuses of religion in government in the past several hundred years. But, when applied properly, you have a situation where even the Jews (commonly seen to be the "enemies" of Muslims) were able to seek refuge amongst the Muslims in Spain from the Inquisition. In fact, though disputed, it is argued that European Jews experienced a Golden Age under the rule of Muslims.
Is Islam free from controversy? Of course not! With a history of over 1400 years, how could it be? But modern politics and the growing divide between the Western World and the Islamic world are constantly putting any event remotely negative into the spotlight, so it gets increasingly more-and-more difficult to approach the issues objectively anymore. I have an obviously vested interest in the issue, and I'm sure most others do to.
I welcome anyone to e-mail me if they are sincerely interested in learning more about the religion of Islam. My e-mail is abu_hurayrah ATT hidayahonline DOTT org. I figure Slashdotters can see through that kind of an obfuscation...;)
The logic behind this is that we are all guilty by association unless we openly denounce every action that is done by a Muslim. My own actions are no longer sufficient by which someone can judge my character. Rather, I must be running around, denouncing this, denouncing that, because there are over 1 billion people out there. I cannot possibly keep track of everything, but those that wish to affirm their own stereotypes feel comfortable in taking this route as an excuse. Many people close to my family are evangelical Christians, yet I don't ask for nor look for apologies from them whenever Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or any other well-known & public evangelist spouts something offensive and/or demeaning. Why? Because I base my opinion of someone by their own character, and not the actions of others.
Okay, let's prefix this with the crucial information. If it's not obvious from my username (I registered just to reply to some comments in this discussion), I am a Muslim. I was born into a Muslim family and I've lived in the US (same house, actually), all my life. The issues you are discussing - the "revenge rape", poor administration, lack of understanding of the religion - and I can add a thousand other things - are issues that disgust Muslims as well as non-Muslims. These are societal as well as cultural issues. But they do not come from the religion itself, despite what people may claim. Every country that has a significant Muslim population has a plethora of problems such as you have described, unique to their areas. And this is no different from countries where problems such as drug abuse, rape, crime, ignorance, and other social ills exist, Muslim or not, in the West, East, or anywhere else. Moreover, these are not issues that are unique to Muslim countries. We just love to eat it up here, that's all. Keep in mind, as well, that the set of people we're talking about is over 1 billion . I am not defending these actions, but I do wish to put them in perspective when my population is marginalized and unjustly stereotyped. I doubt I fit in with the "modern" or "moderate" Muslim genre - I despise that term because of the implication - but I am an American and I have the unique opportunity to see these kinds of issues from both sides. Flame on if you will, but there's only so much one can see without commenting.