okay. so yes, islam did not ban slavery. it is still allowed, just like in christianity and judaism. it did, however, encourage the ending of slavery and took means to ensure that.
that having been said, slavery in islam isn't for personal gains, its for reasons related to war.
i would suggest you speak to a scholar in your area (and i am sure there are many) for more details. as i have been willing to admit when i am mistaken, i hope you are admitting to embrace the truth when you find it and that you continue searching for it.
again, as i said, you have to understand why the verses were revealed. just reading the verses and hadiths without understanding both 1. the context in which they were revealed and 2. the wisdom behind why it was revealed does not give you a full meaning. hence, if you did just read the ayahs and hadiths without reading the reason for things being revealed in that way, you miss the point. keep in mind that a. the book is revealed in a language presumably other than yours, b. that the arabic language back then was a lot more sophisticated than it is now, c. that knowledge of place/reason of revelation and stories around it make a big difference, and d. knowing the effect before and after the verse also shows to its effectiveness.
2 things... first, as i said, had God just revealed, 'do not have slaves,' people would have continued having slaves - He, out of His infinite knowledge which knows no time limit, and out of His knowledge of us human beings as His creatures, revealed things in the way He knew would have the best effect - so rather than say 'do not have slaves' - slavery was banned in stages, and, by the time of the death of the Prophet, Muslims didn't have slaves.
as for the "melk yameen" issue, i encourage you to ask a scholar if you want to know, because not only can they give you the answer to this but can give you the answer to all the other questions you have about other verses. i will refrain from answering this part myself because i cannot remember the exact details behind the answer i've heard about this.
but i will leave you with this thought - first off, do not call it rape, b/c it was not - from what i remember, there were rules and regulations about it (basically, if you were going to sleep with a melk yameen, you had obligations towards them, including feeding them, clothing them, etc, and a scholar can give you more information) -- look today, any conqueror nation conquering another nation, what happens? the women get raped, the men get killed. do you think our soldiers provide food and shelter to the women they raped? i think not. so there's a crucial difference there too. but i will again refer you to asking a scholar who can answer these questions better.
uh, first of all, i didn't ask you for quotes from Quran or Hadith to prove anythign -- i know the Quran much better than you do, have it memorized by heart, know and speak the Arabic language and do not need you to tell me what the Quran says and doesn't say.
that having been said, exactly like i told you in the other post - 1. do you know why that verse was revealed? do you understand it or are you copying and pasting some random english translation? 2. do you know where this hadith is coming from? do you know the chain of narrarators and if they are all strong or not? do you understand the exact story behind it? 3. as i told you, slavery was abolished in islam in stages. it was no just said outright "no slaves" because no one would have listened. it was abolished in stages and that's why it *was* abolished, unlike today in modern society where we still see prejudices despite the fact that slavery has been abolished.
in addition, i don't really understand what you're trying to get at - are you trying, as a non muslim, to convince other non muslims and other muslims that islam is pro slavery? i am a muslim and the entire world of muslims will tell you - are you more knowledgable of the Quran and the sunnah than muslims are? i think not. what are you trying to get at? its obvious that you're not trying to learn the truth behind something, that you're just trying to argue and prove that islam is pro-slavery for whatever motives you have. well, 1. its not pro slavery. anyone who wants to learn and reads the links i posted all the way through will understand that islam is NOT pro slavery and that it did abolish it and was much more successful than the west or anywhere else ever was. 2. quran, hadiths, like anything, can be taken out of context, out of meaning. if you just want to argue, go learn arabic, pick up a copy of ibn katheer, study the meaning in its unaltered pure untranslated form, and then if you have questions, go speak to scholars who understand the Quran and sunnah and they can answer your questions.
i am not a scholar. i never claimed it. but i do consider myself a muslim. and as a muslim, i understand my beliefs very well. and straight up, i am telling you, if you're simply asking a question, that islam is not pro-slavery. quote quran and hadith for me till tomorrow, you are just copying and pasting english translations of things you don't understand. anyone who speaks more than one language knows that 1. a translation doesn't do the original text sufficient good, 2. certain things are given meaning by their context and situation in which they were said or stated.
so that's the summary - if you're trying to learn, then i am telling you, and i gave you proof (which you half read, pulled the first half the site and pasted it here and said boom, proof, give me more (funny too you only read half a site and that's it... i posted more than one site and more than one link... and i, despite being muslim and knowing this stuff already, read the sites all the way through before posting the links even) to back it up which you didn't read all the way) that islam does not support slavery and is anti slavery and abolished it. if, after this, you wish to argue, then i am not wasting my time with this thread because: 1. i and all muslims know that what i said is true, 2. any knowledgable muslim scholar you talk to who will provide you with proof of my statement and reasons of revelations for all the verses etc, and 3. any open minded person who is trying to learn and reads this thread and reads the links i uploaded all the way through can easily understand that what i said is true, and 4. its evident you just want to argue, why, i don't know, but either way, its apparent you have your mind set, and i am not going to try to change your mind, just like you will never be able to change the mind of true muslims nor will you ever be able to change the truth.
it is very apparent to me, after reading your response, that you did not read the link that i read to you in full, but you just pulled the first paragraph.
if you continue reading, you'll see an explanation for those verses and exactly why things are said this way.
furthermore, it is also apparent that you just wish to argue and are not up for having an intellectual conversation, and, as thus, i am not going to waste my time further. this is apparent by the fact that you read the portion you like, quote it, and post it. you didn't read the entire page, did you? if you're just posting here to argue for the heck of it, don't waste my time and yours. if you really want to know whether islam is pro-slavery or anti-slavery, read carefully the *entire* link i sent you, and find out what its really saying, then make a judgement one way or the other, don't stop at the first paragraph.
like i said in my previous post, its just like prohibition here in US - failed miserably. why? one step of "stop drinking." - did anyone listen? no. islam, likewise, happening in a society of all slavery, decreased slavery from 100% existance to 0% existance over stages.
he (SAW) had servants, but no slaves. a man who has slaves will not sit and eat with slaves. a man who has slaves will not tell others to treat them as brothers. as i mentioned in my last post, slavery was abolished in stages and i asked you to read that site for proof with details.
again, you have to realize what your sources are, that's really important and critical.
Gladly. Please provide me with some links and I'll look into it.http://www.answering-christianity.com/ -- there's a whole section dedicated to the whole issue of slavery here, proofs included.
Do you have any proof? I watch/listen to Let the Quran Speak regularly. The presenter, who probably has a firmer grasp of the Quran than you stated (and backed up using surahs) that Islam does not condemn slavery.
look at the link above under the slavery section for plenty of proof. islam abolished slavery in stages. the site will give you more detail with proofs from the quran and sunnah. why did it abolish it in stages as opposed to just outright saying, "don't own slaves?" -- because look back to the US and prohibition for example -- miserable failure. people broke the law, people smuggled alcohol, etc. Islam handles many of these things in a step by step basis, in stages. the issue of slavery was one of them, the issue of alcohol was another. the mere fact that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would make the one who gives athan, a very honorable task, to be Bilal (RA) (who would also be the one to climb the holiest house of Allah, the ka'bah) is a huge indication in and of itself of islam's position on slavery. there are many examples in hadiths about the high state that Bilal (RA) was placed into, i can provide these to you if you wish.
Do a google search for slavery Saudi Arabia and you will find nothing but support for my argument, including from renowned organizations such as Human Rights Watch.
do a google search on terrorism, or women's rights and islam, or polygamy, etc - you'll find millions of sites that tell you "islam orders people to kill non muslims. islam degrades women. islam says this and that and the other." look into those sites and who wrote them - you'll find that they are people who have no knowledge about islam, no knowledge about the intricate details of the prophet muhammad (saw)'s life, and no knowledge of the arabic language. this is the unfortunate part - many people just want to make blind assumptions without actually looking and studying. those who do research unfortunately often get their answers from a wrong place and thus are lead to an incorrect understanding of things.
true muslims who know their religion, true muslim scholars, etc know these matters that people who don't like islam use to try to give islam a bad picture.
also, one last thing - you should note that saudi arabia does not mean islam. islam is not a religion for arabs, it is not a religion for the arabian penninsula, and it is not a religion for saudi arabia. islam is a religion for all of mankind. it may have come down to the Prophet while he was in arabia at the time. it may have come down to an arabic speaking nation in arabic tongue. but its a religion that was meant for all of mankind and all of humanity, and does not single out or put one person above another except by their level of piety and devotion to God.
by the way, let me ask you a question -- in all honesty, don't you think the people of quraysh at that time (the tribe of the Prophet who were trying to shoot him down and stop his message) would have been *more likely* to bring this claim up and attack him for it if it was not a normal thing or that culture and time b/c the girls had reached puberty? it would make plenty of sense to me... plus, why would she have been engaged to a non-muslim idol worshipper a year before the prophet married her?
umm... maybe you should check and get your facts straight. people here typically think that the civil rights movements started in the past 2 centuries. absolutely incorrect. the prophet muhammad is the first one who abolished slavery actually.
these people whom you refer to - do you know who bilal ibn raba7 actually is!? he was a slave to the qurayshis at the time (the non muslim idol worshippers). he was freed by abu bakr (ra) the prophet's companion. the prophet put him in such a high status - not only did he let him call the athan (which was a great honor), but he was also one of the prophet's closest companions.
uhhh abu hurayrah wasn't a slave. he was of the very poor people of madinah who the prophet and other muslims used to feed and such. he wasn't a slave.
slaves existed back then yes - but to the non muslims. the muslims did not have slaves, they freed them and were the first to bring equality between different races and colors. the hadith says something like, "no one person is better than another except by piety."
uhh the word abd doesn't mean black also. the Prophet's name, as a matter of fact, was "Muhammad ibn Abd Allah" -- Abd means slave of. muslims all consider themselves as "slaves of God."
if you want to be quoting ahadith, you should first:
1. learn arabic - so you know the real meaning behind things.
2. learn the knowledge of "jar7 and ta3deel" - learn what's authentic and what's not, the chains, what the origin of the story is.
then come and quote hadiths. but blindly copying and pasting isn't getting you anywhere.
during that time, girls matured early because of the hot desert climate. noting the following, that ayesha (ra) who the Prophet (saw) married was engaged before the prophet married her to another man, a non-muslim. also, notice that these kinds of claims that the prophet was (God forbid) as you say only came about in the middle ages and afterwards - if this really weren't a cultural thing back then, his enemies would have brought this up so long ago, don't you think?
perhaps you should study the history of this great man before making blind claims and just copy pasting things you find online. to quote a non muslim, famous playwrite, george bernard shaw, "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." -- search wikipedia for "George Bernard Shaw," you'll find it on that page.
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okay. so yes, islam did not ban slavery. it is still allowed, just like in christianity and judaism. it did, however, encourage the ending of slavery and took means to ensure that.
that having been said, slavery in islam isn't for personal gains, its for reasons related to war.
i would suggest you speak to a scholar in your area (and i am sure there are many) for more details. as i have been willing to admit when i am mistaken, i hope you are admitting to embrace the truth when you find it and that you continue searching for it.
i take it that you receieve email notification when you get a reply to your post, so give me a few days and i will reply to this post.
again, as i said, you have to understand why the verses were revealed. just reading the verses and hadiths without understanding both 1. the context in which they were revealed and 2. the wisdom behind why it was revealed does not give you a full meaning. hence, if you did just read the ayahs and hadiths without reading the reason for things being revealed in that way, you miss the point. keep in mind that a. the book is revealed in a language presumably other than yours, b. that the arabic language back then was a lot more sophisticated than it is now, c. that knowledge of place/reason of revelation and stories around it make a big difference, and d. knowing the effect before and after the verse also shows to its effectiveness.
2 things... first, as i said, had God just revealed, 'do not have slaves,' people would have continued having slaves - He, out of His infinite knowledge which knows no time limit, and out of His knowledge of us human beings as His creatures, revealed things in the way He knew would have the best effect - so rather than say 'do not have slaves' - slavery was banned in stages, and, by the time of the death of the Prophet, Muslims didn't have slaves.
as for the "melk yameen" issue, i encourage you to ask a scholar if you want to know, because not only can they give you the answer to this but can give you the answer to all the other questions you have about other verses. i will refrain from answering this part myself because i cannot remember the exact details behind the answer i've heard about this.
but i will leave you with this thought - first off, do not call it rape, b/c it was not - from what i remember, there were rules and regulations about it (basically, if you were going to sleep with a melk yameen, you had obligations towards them, including feeding them, clothing them, etc, and a scholar can give you more information) -- look today, any conqueror nation conquering another nation, what happens? the women get raped, the men get killed. do you think our soldiers provide food and shelter to the women they raped? i think not. so there's a crucial difference there too. but i will again refer you to asking a scholar who can answer these questions better.
uh, first of all, i didn't ask you for quotes from Quran or Hadith to prove anythign -- i know the Quran much better than you do, have it memorized by heart, know and speak the Arabic language and do not need you to tell me what the Quran says and doesn't say.
that having been said, exactly like i told you in the other post - 1. do you know why that verse was revealed? do you understand it or are you copying and pasting some random english translation? 2. do you know where this hadith is coming from? do you know the chain of narrarators and if they are all strong or not? do you understand the exact story behind it? 3. as i told you, slavery was abolished in islam in stages. it was no just said outright "no slaves" because no one would have listened. it was abolished in stages and that's why it *was* abolished, unlike today in modern society where we still see prejudices despite the fact that slavery has been abolished.
in addition, i don't really understand what you're trying to get at - are you trying, as a non muslim, to convince other non muslims and other muslims that islam is pro slavery? i am a muslim and the entire world of muslims will tell you - are you more knowledgable of the Quran and the sunnah than muslims are? i think not. what are you trying to get at? its obvious that you're not trying to learn the truth behind something, that you're just trying to argue and prove that islam is pro-slavery for whatever motives you have. well, 1. its not pro slavery. anyone who wants to learn and reads the links i posted all the way through will understand that islam is NOT pro slavery and that it did abolish it and was much more successful than the west or anywhere else ever was. 2. quran, hadiths, like anything, can be taken out of context, out of meaning. if you just want to argue, go learn arabic, pick up a copy of ibn katheer, study the meaning in its unaltered pure untranslated form, and then if you have questions, go speak to scholars who understand the Quran and sunnah and they can answer your questions.
i am not a scholar. i never claimed it. but i do consider myself a muslim. and as a muslim, i understand my beliefs very well. and straight up, i am telling you, if you're simply asking a question, that islam is not pro-slavery. quote quran and hadith for me till tomorrow, you are just copying and pasting english translations of things you don't understand. anyone who speaks more than one language knows that 1. a translation doesn't do the original text sufficient good, 2. certain things are given meaning by their context and situation in which they were said or stated.
so that's the summary - if you're trying to learn, then i am telling you, and i gave you proof (which you half read, pulled the first half the site and pasted it here and said boom, proof, give me more (funny too you only read half a site and that's it... i posted more than one site and more than one link... and i, despite being muslim and knowing this stuff already, read the sites all the way through before posting the links even) to back it up which you didn't read all the way) that islam does not support slavery and is anti slavery and abolished it. if, after this, you wish to argue, then i am not wasting my time with this thread because: 1. i and all muslims know that what i said is true, 2. any knowledgable muslim scholar you talk to who will provide you with proof of my statement and reasons of revelations for all the verses etc, and 3. any open minded person who is trying to learn and reads this thread and reads the links i uploaded all the way through can easily understand that what i said is true, and 4. its evident you just want to argue, why, i don't know, but either way, its apparent you have your mind set, and i am not going to try to change your mind, just like you will never be able to change the mind of true muslims nor will you ever be able to change the truth.
it is very apparent to me, after reading your response, that you did not read the link that i read to you in full, but you just pulled the first paragraph.
if you continue reading, you'll see an explanation for those verses and exactly why things are said this way.
furthermore, it is also apparent that you just wish to argue and are not up for having an intellectual conversation, and, as thus, i am not going to waste my time further. this is apparent by the fact that you read the portion you like, quote it, and post it. you didn't read the entire page, did you? if you're just posting here to argue for the heck of it, don't waste my time and yours. if you really want to know whether islam is pro-slavery or anti-slavery, read carefully the *entire* link i sent you, and find out what its really saying, then make a judgement one way or the other, don't stop at the first paragraph.
like i said in my previous post, its just like prohibition here in US - failed miserably. why? one step of "stop drinking." - did anyone listen? no. islam, likewise, happening in a society of all slavery, decreased slavery from 100% existance to 0% existance over stages.
no.
"He never kept anybody in slavery. As soon as he got a slave, he set him free."
"Whenever he received any slaves, he always gave them freedom but they could never free themselves from his kindness and generosity"
"At the outset of his mission, he would sit and eat with the poor and slaves."
http://www.muslim.org/islam/pr-life/l9.htmhttp://www.islamanswers.net/Prophets/characterist
http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/pmercy.htm
he (SAW) had servants, but no slaves. a man who has slaves will not sit and eat with slaves. a man who has slaves will not tell others to treat them as brothers. as i mentioned in my last post, slavery was abolished in stages and i asked you to read that site for proof with details.
again, you have to realize what your sources are, that's really important and critical.
Gladly. Please provide me with some links and I'll look into it. http://www.answering-christianity.com/ -- there's a whole section dedicated to the whole issue of slavery here, proofs included.
Do you have any proof? I watch/listen to Let the Quran Speak regularly. The presenter, who probably has a firmer grasp of the Quran than you stated (and backed up using surahs) that Islam does not condemn slavery.
look at the link above under the slavery section for plenty of proof. islam abolished slavery in stages. the site will give you more detail with proofs from the quran and sunnah. why did it abolish it in stages as opposed to just outright saying, "don't own slaves?" -- because look back to the US and prohibition for example -- miserable failure. people broke the law, people smuggled alcohol, etc. Islam handles many of these things in a step by step basis, in stages. the issue of slavery was one of them, the issue of alcohol was another. the mere fact that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would make the one who gives athan, a very honorable task, to be Bilal (RA) (who would also be the one to climb the holiest house of Allah, the ka'bah) is a huge indication in and of itself of islam's position on slavery. there are many examples in hadiths about the high state that Bilal (RA) was placed into, i can provide these to you if you wish.
Do a google search for slavery Saudi Arabia and you will find nothing but support for my argument, including from renowned organizations such as Human Rights Watch.
do a google search on terrorism, or women's rights and islam, or polygamy, etc - you'll find millions of sites that tell you "islam orders people to kill non muslims. islam degrades women. islam says this and that and the other." look into those sites and who wrote them - you'll find that they are people who have no knowledge about islam, no knowledge about the intricate details of the prophet muhammad (saw)'s life, and no knowledge of the arabic language. this is the unfortunate part - many people just want to make blind assumptions without actually looking and studying. those who do research unfortunately often get their answers from a wrong place and thus are lead to an incorrect understanding of things.
true muslims who know their religion, true muslim scholars, etc know these matters that people who don't like islam use to try to give islam a bad picture.
also, one last thing - you should note that saudi arabia does not mean islam. islam is not a religion for arabs, it is not a religion for the arabian penninsula, and it is not a religion for saudi arabia. islam is a religion for all of mankind. it may have come down to the Prophet while he was in arabia at the time. it may have come down to an arabic speaking nation in arabic tongue. but its a religion that was meant for all of mankind and all of humanity, and does not single out or put one person above another except by their level of piety and devotion to God.
think again. has a lot to do with climate and environment.f _normal_puberty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Variations_o
google for more information.
by the way, let me ask you a question -- in all honesty, don't you think the people of quraysh at that time (the tribe of the Prophet who were trying to shoot him down and stop his message) would have been *more likely* to bring this claim up and attack him for it if it was not a normal thing or that culture and time b/c the girls had reached puberty? it would make plenty of sense to me... plus, why would she have been engaged to a non-muslim idol worshipper a year before the prophet married her?
umm... maybe you should check and get your facts straight. people here typically think that the civil rights movements started in the past 2 centuries. absolutely incorrect. the prophet muhammad is the first one who abolished slavery actually. these people whom you refer to - do you know who bilal ibn raba7 actually is!? he was a slave to the qurayshis at the time (the non muslim idol worshippers). he was freed by abu bakr (ra) the prophet's companion. the prophet put him in such a high status - not only did he let him call the athan (which was a great honor), but he was also one of the prophet's closest companions. uhhh abu hurayrah wasn't a slave. he was of the very poor people of madinah who the prophet and other muslims used to feed and such. he wasn't a slave. slaves existed back then yes - but to the non muslims. the muslims did not have slaves, they freed them and were the first to bring equality between different races and colors. the hadith says something like, "no one person is better than another except by piety." uhh the word abd doesn't mean black also. the Prophet's name, as a matter of fact, was "Muhammad ibn Abd Allah" -- Abd means slave of. muslims all consider themselves as "slaves of God." if you want to be quoting ahadith, you should first: 1. learn arabic - so you know the real meaning behind things. 2. learn the knowledge of "jar7 and ta3deel" - learn what's authentic and what's not, the chains, what the origin of the story is. then come and quote hadiths. but blindly copying and pasting isn't getting you anywhere.
during that time, girls matured early because of the hot desert climate. noting the following, that ayesha (ra) who the Prophet (saw) married was engaged before the prophet married her to another man, a non-muslim. also, notice that these kinds of claims that the prophet was (God forbid) as you say only came about in the middle ages and afterwards - if this really weren't a cultural thing back then, his enemies would have brought this up so long ago, don't you think? perhaps you should study the history of this great man before making blind claims and just copy pasting things you find online. to quote a non muslim, famous playwrite, george bernard shaw, "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." -- search wikipedia for "George Bernard Shaw," you'll find it on that page.