I believe the $595 million was the original cost of the project. I wonder how much was already awarded?
Having worked for a government contractor, I've always found that the contractors are usually only half to blame. Remember the Raytheon "Smart Solider" equipment that was so terrible? Partially because the military loaded them up with crappy specifications and forced them to use ADA.
Just a brief answer, because I have a bunch of stuff to work on this week. Ugh.
He wasn't a threat to Kerry obviously. The police have plenty of experience with this guy and others like him and should not have treated him as likely to harm the speaker. However, snap judgments have to be made and this was a bad one. Plus, the cops don't want to let it seem like they are letting things get out of control (which I don't agree with, but that's the way they work).
There are rules governing questioners at these events. Or, at least, the moderator says there is. You ask one question and sit down, the mic is not provided for protestors or ramblers. Otherwise, those people will take up all the time. Protestors are free to yell and chant at will, just outside.
I was not there, I am going on accounts provided by several friends, who were at the Auditorium. In the video, he does finally ask his question and that's when they grab him. I think that the cops had already decided to eject him and it was poor timing on their part that they did it when he was asking an actual and important question.
His shrieks, however staged, were not cutting off Kerry.
At the beginning of the Q&A session, the rules are stated. That segment hasn't appeared in any video posted online so far. His mic did deserve to be cut because he asked more than one question and it took prodding from a cop to get him to ask that one. All the other stuff was caused because he refused to be ejected by the police. Whether or not they were right in ejecting him, once he fought they could fight back. Not torture him though.
Absolutely, the police took it way too far. They probably got mad at him because they knew he was making them look foolish or something along those lines. The charges all stem from when he fought back and not from his asking tough questions to Kerry. The saddest thing is that his antics overshadowed the more important explanation of Kerry's actions in 2004.
Good points, but I still don't agree with some of the assessment.
The campus police help with events where the speaker is controversial. Especially one where the speaker receives all manner of threats. When one of the "Simpsons" showrunners came, they were nowhere in sight.:) They have to deal with attendees who do not follow the rules. Usually they just eject the students from the venue and never bring charges or even record it.
Kerry wasn't able to answer Meyer's questions because Meyer kept cutting him off with, I think, the intent of being removed by the cops. Meyer knew the rules and knew that the police would try to force him to leave once he got very vocal and didn't listen to their directive to ask the question and sit down. Kerry did start to answer once the mic was cut, which was done by ACCENT (the student group) and not the police. Also, the police started to eject him which was SOP and he fought against them. This caused the violence, not his questions. However, the cops way overstepped their authority when using the taser.
As a final note, I read the police report and I believe it when they said he didn't struggle or yell unless a camera was on him or the public was watching. I think that should be considered when discussing this incident. All that being said, yours is one of the most well thought out and rational posts I've read on the subject.:)
I agree with that. I use the word discipline rather liberally. I include dismissal and even criminal or civil charges when I say they should be disciplined.
Because some people aren't following the thread of this discussion, I am posting this again. I do not support the use of the taser on Meyer. Again, I do not support it. I was mistaken on what the effects of it were. I do support the removal of Meyer from the premises as he was causing a scene at a private student event, not a taxpayer one. He struggled, so he gets a forceful response. Too forceful though.
Wow, what a winner you are. Clearly my thick skull holds a much larger brain than yours because I read the all the comments before making a hotheaded post. I already wrote in another post that I was eating crow over the taser thing. I assumed it was more like a stun gun or mild shock. That's what I get for assuming.
Now, I can tell you read none of the story because you would know that the cops are employed by the University and not the city, that he wasn't completely handcuffed (only had it on one hand) when they tasered him, and that he was violating the rules at a privately organized event. He was asked nicely to leave and to take his protest outside onto public grounds. This was not a taxpayer event either.
I appreciate anyone going against the grain. I was outraged when Bush's crew had protesters who weren't disrupting an event manhandled and ejected. I am outraged that you have to sign a loyalty oath to get into Republican events. However, THIS student wrestled with the cops as they were trying to remove him from the premises after he was told several times that his time was up and had the microphone turned off by the student group. He could have protested right outside the venue and yelled at Kerry as he was leaving, or he simply could have asked his questions and followed the rules for the event. I hope he and others keep up protests like this, lest we lose our right to protest. That does not excuse his behavior though.
Read my last comment. I am not defending the use of the taser. However, the cops tried to lead him away quietly because he violated the rules that questioners must follow. This was not Meyer's venue, despite the fact a student group sponsored the event. He became physical with the cops and they responded in kind. Cops have the right to defend themselves (again, the taser was unnecessary, but not Meyer's removal).
Meyer just wanted to protest Kerry and didn't even let Kerry answer the question, he just kept cutting Kerry off. UF has plenty of places to protest legally without a permit (including right outside of the venue where this was), why didn't he go out there and demand answers when Kerry came out?
As to the fact that the cops don't know how to do their jobs, that's not true, they just overreacted and will probably be disciplined. I would have understood if it was only one or two cops, but several of them should have been able to put cuffs on him and remove him.
He causes problems and does things to get attention.
I should have clarified. What he does is hardly ever constructive or even purposeful. Which is his right, but it's my right to be annoyed by him and his antics. I agree that people should get their voices out, but they should accept the consequences of their actions.
The mainstream media you refer to is the one distorting the story by only showing Andrew Meyer's side. How many people on Slashdot saw the original post or read a blurb about it and immediately thought of Rodney King or other examples of actual police brutality?
You are not defining a sting, but "entrapment." Police officers get caught in stings just like civilians do. Police officers also get videotaped abusing the public, but I don't agree that this is one of those times.
I am eating crow about the TASER. I thought that it was more like a stun gun, I didn't realize that it a) caused so much pain and b) could stop your heart. I know stun guns don't feel great, but they don't compare to a TASER.
Being a UF student, I have heard plenty about Mr. Meyer before this. He causes problems and does things to get attention. Meyer knew he could cause a scene and once the police got involved he saw an opportunity. He took that opportunity and has now achieved the national attention he sought.
First, this was an event open to the public, but not a public forum. Rules were in place for questioners. He was being led out because he would not relinquish the microphone after being politely asked. He started going peacefully, then began struggling with the campus police which caused them to treat him as hostile. He tried to run back to the microphone and that's when they pinned him down. He started screaming and writhing because the police were holding him down, but he started the tussle. They used the TASER to subdue him without twisting arms other more forceful methods.
The police probably overreacted, but Meyer was at fault. Kerry did ask the police to let him ask the question and he answered it even as they took Meyer away.
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I believe the $595 million was the original cost of the project. I wonder how much was already awarded? Having worked for a government contractor, I've always found that the contractors are usually only half to blame. Remember the Raytheon "Smart Solider" equipment that was so terrible? Partially because the military loaded them up with crappy specifications and forced them to use ADA.
The article said that the cost will be $3bln now that the handhelds are being dropped.
Just a brief answer, because I have a bunch of stuff to work on this week. Ugh.
He wasn't a threat to Kerry obviously. The police have plenty of experience with this guy and others like him and should not have treated him as likely to harm the speaker. However, snap judgments have to be made and this was a bad one. Plus, the cops don't want to let it seem like they are letting things get out of control (which I don't agree with, but that's the way they work).
There are rules governing questioners at these events. Or, at least, the moderator says there is. You ask one question and sit down, the mic is not provided for protestors or ramblers. Otherwise, those people will take up all the time. Protestors are free to yell and chant at will, just outside.
I was not there, I am going on accounts provided by several friends, who were at the Auditorium. In the video, he does finally ask his question and that's when they grab him. I think that the cops had already decided to eject him and it was poor timing on their part that they did it when he was asking an actual and important question.
His shrieks, however staged, were not cutting off Kerry.
At the beginning of the Q&A session, the rules are stated. That segment hasn't appeared in any video posted online so far. His mic did deserve to be cut because he asked more than one question and it took prodding from a cop to get him to ask that one. All the other stuff was caused because he refused to be ejected by the police. Whether or not they were right in ejecting him, once he fought they could fight back. Not torture him though.
Absolutely, the police took it way too far. They probably got mad at him because they knew he was making them look foolish or something along those lines. The charges all stem from when he fought back and not from his asking tough questions to Kerry. The saddest thing is that his antics overshadowed the more important explanation of Kerry's actions in 2004.
Good points, but I still don't agree with some of the assessment.
The campus police help with events where the speaker is controversial. Especially one where the speaker receives all manner of threats. When one of the "Simpsons" showrunners came, they were nowhere in sight. :) They have to deal with attendees who do not follow the rules. Usually they just eject the students from the venue and never bring charges or even record it.
Kerry wasn't able to answer Meyer's questions because Meyer kept cutting him off with, I think, the intent of being removed by the cops. Meyer knew the rules and knew that the police would try to force him to leave once he got very vocal and didn't listen to their directive to ask the question and sit down. Kerry did start to answer once the mic was cut, which was done by ACCENT (the student group) and not the police. Also, the police started to eject him which was SOP and he fought against them. This caused the violence, not his questions. However, the cops way overstepped their authority when using the taser.
As a final note, I read the police report and I believe it when they said he didn't struggle or yell unless a camera was on him or the public was watching. I think that should be considered when discussing this incident. All that being said, yours is one of the most well thought out and rational posts I've read on the subject. :)
I agree with that. I use the word discipline rather liberally. I include dismissal and even criminal or civil charges when I say they should be disciplined.
Because some people aren't following the thread of this discussion, I am posting this again. I do not support the use of the taser on Meyer. Again, I do not support it. I was mistaken on what the effects of it were. I do support the removal of Meyer from the premises as he was causing a scene at a private student event, not a taxpayer one. He struggled, so he gets a forceful response. Too forceful though.
Wow, what a winner you are. Clearly my thick skull holds a much larger brain than yours because I read the all the comments before making a hotheaded post. I already wrote in another post that I was eating crow over the taser thing. I assumed it was more like a stun gun or mild shock. That's what I get for assuming.
Now, I can tell you read none of the story because you would know that the cops are employed by the University and not the city, that he wasn't completely handcuffed (only had it on one hand) when they tasered him, and that he was violating the rules at a privately organized event. He was asked nicely to leave and to take his protest outside onto public grounds. This was not a taxpayer event either.
I appreciate anyone going against the grain. I was outraged when Bush's crew had protesters who weren't disrupting an event manhandled and ejected. I am outraged that you have to sign a loyalty oath to get into Republican events. However, THIS student wrestled with the cops as they were trying to remove him from the premises after he was told several times that his time was up and had the microphone turned off by the student group. He could have protested right outside the venue and yelled at Kerry as he was leaving, or he simply could have asked his questions and followed the rules for the event. I hope he and others keep up protests like this, lest we lose our right to protest. That does not excuse his behavior though.
Read my last comment. I am not defending the use of the taser. However, the cops tried to lead him away quietly because he violated the rules that questioners must follow. This was not Meyer's venue, despite the fact a student group sponsored the event. He became physical with the cops and they responded in kind. Cops have the right to defend themselves (again, the taser was unnecessary, but not Meyer's removal).
Meyer just wanted to protest Kerry and didn't even let Kerry answer the question, he just kept cutting Kerry off. UF has plenty of places to protest legally without a permit (including right outside of the venue where this was), why didn't he go out there and demand answers when Kerry came out?
As to the fact that the cops don't know how to do their jobs, that's not true, they just overreacted and will probably be disciplined. I would have understood if it was only one or two cops, but several of them should have been able to put cuffs on him and remove him.
I should have clarified. What he does is hardly ever constructive or even purposeful. Which is his right, but it's my right to be annoyed by him and his antics. I agree that people should get their voices out, but they should accept the consequences of their actions.
The mainstream media you refer to is the one distorting the story by only showing Andrew Meyer's side. How many people on Slashdot saw the original post or read a blurb about it and immediately thought of Rodney King or other examples of actual police brutality?
You are not defining a sting, but "entrapment." Police officers get caught in stings just like civilians do. Police officers also get videotaped abusing the public, but I don't agree that this is one of those times.
I am eating crow about the TASER. I thought that it was more like a stun gun, I didn't realize that it a) caused so much pain and b) could stop your heart. I know stun guns don't feel great, but they don't compare to a TASER.
Being a UF student, I have heard plenty about Mr. Meyer before this. He causes problems and does things to get attention. Meyer knew he could cause a scene and once the police got involved he saw an opportunity. He took that opportunity and has now achieved the national attention he sought.
First, this was an event open to the public, but not a public forum. Rules were in place for questioners. He was being led out because he would not relinquish the microphone after being politely asked. He started going peacefully, then began struggling with the campus police which caused them to treat him as hostile. He tried to run back to the microphone and that's when they pinned him down. He started screaming and writhing because the police were holding him down, but he started the tussle. They used the TASER to subdue him without twisting arms other more forceful methods.
The police probably overreacted, but Meyer was at fault. Kerry did ask the police to let him ask the question and he answered it even as they took Meyer away.