i have STRESSED the illegality of what mlk were doing. and, in the first place, they were not protests either. they were violating segregation laws in an organized manner. protests were just for public awareness.
the crux of the matter is illegality. had those been a federal crime, there would be no way to organize and stage such organizated and large scale violations of laws.
the comments of the gp are invalid for that reason.
Like the non-violent methods of MLK, who broke the law in a way that brought attention and public opinion over to their side.
the way mlk broke the law, in the organized, military-grade systematic manner, is ILLEGAL. those who do it, are jailed.
the only reason it worked for the organization of mlk, is that they were based in states that supported them, and organized and moved in from there to the states who were segregating. at one point, they even had $1 m budget to spend in their protests and organizations, thanks to the donations collected from the churches, for the VERY objective of DISOBEYING the law in an organized, systematic manner. and, from the operation bases in states that supported them.
the above, can easily be the description of an organized rebellion, or some states waging war against each other, by the way.
in this case, however, there is no state that you can do that thing. there is no state that, what you can do can be legal. there is no state that supports you.
if you attempt the same thing, you will be jailed.
tell me how hard a wall street exec works. and how productive they are. tell me how hard the owners of unfathomable amount of funds in an investment fund work. and how productive they are.
standard of living and distribution of income are two irrelevant concepts.
standard of living changes with technology and times, and is not dependent on distribution of income.
currently, average american lives in far better standards than a medieval serf. but, s/he gets FAR less than the economy, than a mere medieval serf got in middle ages :
therefore, a medieval serf's standard of living, COMPARED to the max standard of living in middle ages, comes much higher than the standard of living of an average american, compared to the max standard of living currently.
you need to brush up on your statistics knowledge. the one which does not exist, that is.
there is no accountability in western world. because, the ones to make the responsibles pay for anything, are the ones who are committing anything that needs accountability.
like, bush crowd, and their unwarranted laws, constitutional violations.
who is going to prosecute them ? supreme court ? THEY are the one appointing the supreme court justices.
like, bp oil spill. who is to prosecute them ? the senators who are their collaborators ? the administration which cooperated with them ?
what you say, is only naivete.
and, no, youre wrong, there isnt even the pretense of being accountable when it comes to putting somebody in jail or prison in the u.s.
"If you don't have enough evidence to charge someone criminally but you think he's illegal, we can make him disappear." Those chilling words were spoken by James Pendergraph, then executive director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) Office of State and Local Coordination, at a conference of police and sheriffs in August 2008.
people have given their votes to current administration on a number of election promises. NONE of these have been fulfilled, and even this administration pursued acta even more fervently than the former.
so, public's opinion, mattered ZIT.
what makes you think, it will effect anything for this matter ?
because public opinion has ANY effect, there is something called acta ? because it has ANY effect that, NONE of the promises the current administration given to get votes, have been fulfilled ?
Like getting voters to care enough about copyright law that it gets changed (because let's face it, most people don't care about copyright law)?
i wont even comment on that. i think anyone with little insight would have realized by now that with this capitalist economic system and the current democratic election process, there is no way that people's interests can overcome private interests due to control of those interests on all aspects of life in the economic part. like mass media, donations and so on.
Like, not buying their music?
and, that's the naive bit. your not buying music will not have effect, because they have heaps of cash signing over any band you are buying now. to refuse them, that band has to have a lot of principles, and choose to stay small, or, have a lot of willpower and break out of it like radiohead.
and the above situation does not even take into account the fact that those interests can manufacture laws or conditions that will render your indie music outlets ineffective, like killing network neutrality and asking them big money for transit.
If you're going to get into a fight over this, you should pick a fight that you can win. Like the non-violent methods of MLK, who broke the law in a way that brought attention and public opinion over to their side. Starting a Pirate Bay might possibly be considered that. Doing a vengeful DDOS does not do that. It shows that in fact, those who oppose copyright really are unethical criminals who only want the law changed so they can do unethical things more easily.
you are only saying this, because you dont know enough about history, especially on the subject you speak of.
mlks non violent methods were ENTIRELY organized violation of existing laws. flat out. there were segregation laws, and they have contested those laws, they DISOBEYED them, in an organized manner. so much that, at a point even mlk has exclaimed that, their organization moved like a military structure, very efficiently.
and that only succeeded, because they were moving from states that did not have those laws, and the federal government, a stronger entity than those states, were sympathetic to them in general.
had the federal government been the party observing those laws, things would turn out different, and the nonviolent VIOLATION of law by disobedience, would not succeed. history is filled with such cases.
please dont talk on matters on which you do not have sufficient information, like this assumption of yours regarding 'legal' nonviolent methods of mlk.
If you fight unethically, then even if you win, you find the victory isn't worth winning. Unless you don't actually care about your ethics.
there is no 'ethical' fighting against an oppressor. excuse me, but oppressors are called oppressors, exactly because they do not provide you any acceptable means to refuse their oppression.
are you aware that what you are saying basically totals to 'just be subservient' ?
the 'peaceful resolution' you speak of, has no effect. people elected someone on various premises, and he fulfilled maybe one out of a few dozen. people elected representatives on various issues, yet they set out to make laws totally against the will of public. they have even gone the extra mile of bringing out laws with NO transparency and democratic process, in the form of acta.
then there is the 'noncriminal', legal ways of doing that eh ? like, battling them in courts, where they have multiples of money to win over you ?
excuse me but what you speak of can only work in an ideal world.
if there was no government, the private interests would directly would directly censor and control you themselves. because there are still laws against doing that, they are doing it through government.
please list them here. up till now i didnt have a particular interest in them. from now on, i think they will get increased propagation. anyone who can, should contribute to them by code or other means.
"In announcing that operation, John T. Morton, the assistant secretary of ICE, and representatives of the Motion Picture Association of America called it a long-term effort against online piracy, and said that suspected criminals would be pursued anywhere in the world
Here, they are in , China, Russia. Now fuck off and go prosecute them after you talked so high and mighty. i would like to see you do it.
First, you should study history, because you are talking about things you obviously don't understand. Communism did not arise out of factory workers revolting, as Marx predicted. Factory workers fought for, and won, the health and safety protections they enjoy today, but went no further. Communism arose entirely out of agrarian societies. Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Korea... none of these countries were industrialized when they adopted Communism. And famously Communist industrialization killed millions. Tens of millions. Possibly into the hundreds of millions. Capitalist robber barons looked like fucking Santa Claus, in comparison to Stalin and Mao. But yeah, the evils of free market industrialization are obvious when you compare North and South Korea today.
no, YOU should shut the hell up, if you dont know jack shit about history.
communism rose to power in countries where people were EXTREMELY exploited compared to any other part of the world. ALL the countries you named, were countries in which the culture has been repressive for over thousands of years. in the case of russia, there was a repressive culture pattern even in 3000 BC - they were raiding, brutally killing and robbing nearby zones by then.
at the turn of 19th century, the only country where a serfdom close to SLAVERY level existed, was russia. to the extent that until 1860, the people living on a land were lord's property. no shit.
when russia industrialized starting mid 19th century, this culture of repression carried over to the industrialized parts of the country exactly as it is - rich exploiting and owning the poor. this has happened even despite the hard attempts of the various reformists in changing the country.
and then what happened ? people revolted. you would also revolt too, if your mother was still being treated as an owned peasant in a factory.
but, what's curious is what happened next - all the free countries of the europe, have rushed in to support the aristocracy which repressed the people for thousands of years !! no shit - 14 glorious countries, including great britain, the freedom loving country of the europe, have sent ACTUAL TROOPS to fight against the rebellion, so that they could be crushed, and aristocrats could come back to power !!!
they have sent armies, to reinstitute a repressive aristocrat class !
and when they failed, they have sent all kinds of help to the white russians, the aristocrats who were trying to reinstate themselves. weapons, funds, everything.
and, thus, they have succeeded in extremely radicalizing a revolution which would not have gone THAT psychopath otherwise. thanks to them, the resulting dominant understanding in the soviet government has become one of schizophrenic psychopaths. everyone was seen as the enemy, including, their own countrymen.
same goes for cuba. the very freedom loving nation of united states of america is the country responsible for installing a puppet dictator and having it run the country on his behalf, for its own profit for decades.
china ? well, that goes WAY back. since 1750s, the very countries who are supposedly the successes of the capitalist industrial revolution, has been wantonly attacking china trying to partition it for their own dominion. AND finally, imitating them, japan came as a fascist capitalist empire in mid 1930s, slaughtering chinese (search nanking massacre - but hold your stomach tight) into submission.
let me put it this way :
the very 'freedom loving' countries of the west and their imitators in the east (japan) are responsible for all the excesses you speak of, above. for, they were the ones who have caused all those revolutions to go extreme, psychopath and schizophrenic, with their intervention and meddling.
if you constantly attack a nation, you help hardliners into power in that nation. its as simple as that.
handmade candles and horse drawn carriage went out of business due to TECHNOLOGY CHANGE. NOT because 'carriage mart' started killing them with big capital, and then exploiting the market without competition.
if this is your counter argument to what your parent posted, then shut the hell up next time something comes to your mind, until you formulate a VALID argument.
And frankly people shop at Walmart when they're looking for something cheap to fulfil a purpose.
and that cheapness, comes from the act of walmart killing local businesses first by selling with zero profit margins, and then exploiting you in an environment where there is no competition.
and ignored any kind of safety precautions, even at the cost of an entire ecosystem.....
impossible. that cannot have happened.... because, uncle greenspan said that, corporations could regulate themselves. im agape with surprise.... surely, this must be a one-time incident....
you first hack at a problem, so that you can solve it. the very lack of stuff like wikileaks, was what was preventing public from even knowing there was a problem there in the first place. everything was shipshape -> 'national security' and you were set to exploit.
Slashdot Mirror
citation needed.
that is because those masses can still get that gaga song free, through other means.
i have STRESSED the illegality of what mlk were doing. and, in the first place, they were not protests either. they were violating segregation laws in an organized manner. protests were just for public awareness.
the crux of the matter is illegality. had those been a federal crime, there would be no way to organize and stage such organizated and large scale violations of laws.
the comments of the gp are invalid for that reason.
Like the non-violent methods of MLK, who broke the law in a way that brought attention and public opinion over to their side.
the way mlk broke the law, in the organized, military-grade systematic manner, is ILLEGAL. those who do it, are jailed.
the only reason it worked for the organization of mlk, is that they were based in states that supported them, and organized and moved in from there to the states who were segregating. at one point, they even had $1 m budget to spend in their protests and organizations, thanks to the donations collected from the churches, for the VERY objective of DISOBEYING the law in an organized, systematic manner. and, from the operation bases in states that supported them.
the above, can easily be the description of an organized rebellion, or some states waging war against each other, by the way.
in this case, however, there is no state that you can do that thing. there is no state that, what you can do can be legal. there is no state that supports you.
if you attempt the same thing, you will be jailed.
tell me how hard a wall street exec works. and how productive they are. tell me how hard the owners of unfathomable amount of funds in an investment fund work. and how productive they are.
dont talk about knowing jack shit.
standard of living and distribution of income are two irrelevant concepts.
standard of living changes with technology and times, and is not dependent on distribution of income.
currently, average american lives in far better standards than a medieval serf. but, s/he gets FAR less than the economy, than a mere medieval serf got in middle ages :
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
therefore, a medieval serf's standard of living, COMPARED to the max standard of living in middle ages, comes much higher than the standard of living of an average american, compared to the max standard of living currently.
you need to brush up on your statistics knowledge. the one which does not exist, that is.
like, bush crowd, and their unwarranted laws, constitutional violations.
who is going to prosecute them ? supreme court ? THEY are the one appointing the supreme court justices.
like, bp oil spill. who is to prosecute them ? the senators who are their collaborators ? the administration which cooperated with them ?
what you say, is only naivete.
and, no, youre wrong, there isnt even the pretense of being accountable when it comes to putting somebody in jail or prison in the u.s.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/144656/%22we_can_make_him_disappear%22:_immigration_officials_are_holding_people_in_secret,_unmarked_jails
"If you don't have enough evidence to charge someone criminally but you think he's illegal, we can make him disappear." Those chilling words were spoken by James Pendergraph, then executive director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) Office of State and Local Coordination, at a conference of police and sheriffs in August 2008.
http://www.thenation.com/article/americas-secret-ice-castles
Just another case which proves that software patents actually can work !!!!
excuse me.
people have given their votes to current administration on a number of election promises. NONE of these have been fulfilled, and even this administration pursued acta even more fervently than the former.
so, public's opinion, mattered ZIT.
what makes you think, it will effect anything for this matter ?
because public opinion has ANY effect, there is something called acta ? because it has ANY effect that, NONE of the promises the current administration given to get votes, have been fulfilled ?
Like getting voters to care enough about copyright law that it gets changed (because let's face it, most people don't care about copyright law)?
i wont even comment on that. i think anyone with little insight would have realized by now that with this capitalist economic system and the current democratic election process, there is no way that people's interests can overcome private interests due to control of those interests on all aspects of life in the economic part. like mass media, donations and so on.
Like, not buying their music?
and, that's the naive bit. your not buying music will not have effect, because they have heaps of cash signing over any band you are buying now. to refuse them, that band has to have a lot of principles, and choose to stay small, or, have a lot of willpower and break out of it like radiohead.
and the above situation does not even take into account the fact that those interests can manufacture laws or conditions that will render your indie music outlets ineffective, like killing network neutrality and asking them big money for transit.
If you're going to get into a fight over this, you should pick a fight that you can win. Like the non-violent methods of MLK, who broke the law in a way that brought attention and public opinion over to their side. Starting a Pirate Bay might possibly be considered that. Doing a vengeful DDOS does not do that. It shows that in fact, those who oppose copyright really are unethical criminals who only want the law changed so they can do unethical things more easily.
you are only saying this, because you dont know enough about history, especially on the subject you speak of.
mlks non violent methods were ENTIRELY organized violation of existing laws. flat out. there were segregation laws, and they have contested those laws, they DISOBEYED them, in an organized manner. so much that, at a point even mlk has exclaimed that, their organization moved like a military structure, very efficiently.
and that only succeeded, because they were moving from states that did not have those laws, and the federal government, a stronger entity than those states, were sympathetic to them in general.
had the federal government been the party observing those laws, things would turn out different, and the nonviolent VIOLATION of law by disobedience, would not succeed. history is filled with such cases.
please dont talk on matters on which you do not have sufficient information, like this assumption of yours regarding 'legal' nonviolent methods of mlk.
If you fight unethically, then even if you win, you find the victory isn't worth winning. Unless you don't actually care about your ethics.
there is no 'ethical' fighting against an oppressor. excuse me, but oppressors are called oppressors, exactly because they do not provide you any acceptable means to refuse their oppression.
are you aware that what you are saying basically totals to 'just be subservient' ?
the 'peaceful resolution' you speak of, has no effect. people elected someone on various premises, and he fulfilled maybe one out of a few dozen. people elected representatives on various issues, yet they set out to make laws totally against the will of public. they have even gone the extra mile of bringing out laws with NO transparency and democratic process, in the form of acta.
then there is the 'noncriminal', legal ways of doing that eh ? like, battling them in courts, where they have multiples of money to win over you ?
excuse me but what you speak of can only work in an ideal world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
its not 'government'. its capitalism.
if there was no government, the private interests would directly would directly censor and control you themselves. because there are still laws against doing that, they are doing it through government.
please list them here. up till now i didnt have a particular interest in them. from now on, i think they will get increased propagation. anyone who can, should contribute to them by code or other means.
"In announcing that operation, John T. Morton, the assistant secretary of ICE, and representatives of the Motion Picture Association of America called it a long-term effort against online piracy, and said that suspected criminals would be pursued anywhere in the world
Here, they are in , China, Russia. Now fuck off and go prosecute them after you talked so high and mighty. i would like to see you do it.
First, you should study history, because you are talking about things you obviously don't understand. Communism did not arise out of factory workers revolting, as Marx predicted. Factory workers fought for, and won, the health and safety protections they enjoy today, but went no further. Communism arose entirely out of agrarian societies. Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Korea... none of these countries were industrialized when they adopted Communism. And famously Communist industrialization killed millions. Tens of millions. Possibly into the hundreds of millions. Capitalist robber barons looked like fucking Santa Claus, in comparison to Stalin and Mao. But yeah, the evils of free market industrialization are obvious when you compare North and South Korea today.
no, YOU should shut the hell up, if you dont know jack shit about history.
communism rose to power in countries where people were EXTREMELY exploited compared to any other part of the world. ALL the countries you named, were countries in which the culture has been repressive for over thousands of years. in the case of russia, there was a repressive culture pattern even in 3000 BC - they were raiding, brutally killing and robbing nearby zones by then.
at the turn of 19th century, the only country where a serfdom close to SLAVERY level existed, was russia. to the extent that until 1860, the people living on a land were lord's property. no shit.
when russia industrialized starting mid 19th century, this culture of repression carried over to the industrialized parts of the country exactly as it is - rich exploiting and owning the poor. this has happened even despite the hard attempts of the various reformists in changing the country.
and then what happened ? people revolted. you would also revolt too, if your mother was still being treated as an owned peasant in a factory.
but, what's curious is what happened next - all the free countries of the europe, have rushed in to support the aristocracy which repressed the people for thousands of years !! no shit - 14 glorious countries, including great britain, the freedom loving country of the europe, have sent ACTUAL TROOPS to fight against the rebellion, so that they could be crushed, and aristocrats could come back to power !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
see.
they have sent armies, to reinstitute a repressive aristocrat class !
and when they failed, they have sent all kinds of help to the white russians, the aristocrats who were trying to reinstate themselves. weapons, funds, everything.
and, thus, they have succeeded in extremely radicalizing a revolution which would not have gone THAT psychopath otherwise. thanks to them, the resulting dominant understanding in the soviet government has become one of schizophrenic psychopaths. everyone was seen as the enemy, including, their own countrymen.
same goes for cuba. the very freedom loving nation of united states of america is the country responsible for installing a puppet dictator and having it run the country on his behalf, for its own profit for decades.
china ? well, that goes WAY back. since 1750s, the very countries who are supposedly the successes of the capitalist industrial revolution, has been wantonly attacking china trying to partition it for their own dominion. AND finally, imitating them, japan came as a fascist capitalist empire in mid 1930s, slaughtering chinese (search nanking massacre - but hold your stomach tight) into submission.
let me put it this way :
the very 'freedom loving' countries of the west and their imitators in the east (japan) are responsible for all the excesses you speak of, above. for, they were the ones who have caused all those revolutions to go extreme, psychopath and schizophrenic, with their intervention and meddling.
if you constantly attack a nation, you help hardliners into power in that nation. its as simple as that.
handmade candles and horse drawn carriage went out of business due to TECHNOLOGY CHANGE. NOT because 'carriage mart' started killing them with big capital, and then exploiting the market without competition.
if this is your counter argument to what your parent posted, then shut the hell up next time something comes to your mind, until you formulate a VALID argument.
And frankly people shop at Walmart when they're looking for something cheap to fulfil a purpose.
and that cheapness, comes from the act of walmart killing local businesses first by selling with zero profit margins, and then exploiting you in an environment where there is no competition.
a cheapness which is dearly bought.
and ignored any kind of safety precautions, even at the cost of an entire ecosystem .....
....
impossible. that cannot have happened.... because, uncle greenspan said that, corporations could regulate themselves. im agape with surprise.... surely, this must be a one-time incident
the latter is called 'agile'.
totally transparent societies. no allowance for national security or any other secrets. everyone accesses any information.
you first hack at a problem, so that you can solve it. the very lack of stuff like wikileaks, was what was preventing public from even knowing there was a problem there in the first place. everything was shipshape -> 'national security' and you were set to exploit.
there were even royalists among the lot who rebelled. every man is not created equal. some are brighter suns than others.
ideals, however, are always what they are.
yes im aware of that. what im trying to do is that, make those people aware of it, themselves.