Right, the very smallest stuff it is not realistic to add a lot of high level features to the language running on the hardware, you'd want the high level stuff to be code generators running on the development workstation. But where you have more complicated processing needs, for example inside factory robots, then mRuby is getting a lot of use. It was funded by Japanese heavy industry.
strictly speaking, mRuby is just a framework for C. It is basically impossible to use unless you're already using C as your main language. You don't need to run the interpreter to use it, or to evaluate any Ruby code, you can use it entirely for the type system for example. It is like Lua. It is really useful to have in the bag for prototyping, and the end result is still C.
fad noun 1. a temporary fashion, notion, manner of conduct, etc., especially one followed enthusiastically by a group. Origin 1825-1835 1825-35; noun use of dial. fad to look after things, busy oneself with trifles, back formation from obsolete faddle to play with, fondle. See fiddle
or
fad/fæd/ noun (informal) 1. an intense but short-lived fashion; craze 2. a personal idiosyncrasy or whim
I'm honestly very surprised to find multiple people in the same thread who not only don't know the word "fad," but apparently can't even operate a dictionary. If it is not temporary, it is not a fad. Disco was a fad because it was temporarily very popular, and then went back to not being very popular, except as a funny thing from the past. Rails, OTOH, was quickly popular, and has remained steadily popular for reasons having nothing to do with a fashion, craze, or following. Rather, it is seen as a quality tool for building dynamic websites rapidly and with polished results.
There are plenty of better languages to learn over Ruby if people need to learn the "basics of the industry". Ruby is only marginally more popular than moribund languages like Delphi.
That's pretty derpy. Haters hate, but you might want to check your data source on that one. I doubt it is based on programmer demand.
But lets see, there is a linked article! Maybe it says something relevant. Oh, it talks about programmer pay, a realistic gauge of demand. Turns out RubyOnRails is at the top of the list.
You really, seriously are going to come out and claim that Pascal is almost as popular as Ruby? In 2014? That wasn't even true 10 years ago, but it was closer.
They don't need a rubber hose, that is for the spooks. Law enforcement can easily just get a court order and you'll turn up at their office with your lawyer and blockchain data.
In the US most phones don't have interchangeable sim cards, but you can buy a dumb phone with cash for $15-20 at a convenience store, and buy cards there to pay the account.
TOR is encrypted but it isn't anonymous if the government knows about at least n nodes, which they do. And they control a large number that they have seized, it is broadly believed that the NSA owns enough of the nodes to see all the network traffic.
They have confiscated enough bitcoins that they can actually track most of the market now, for various reasons that have been explained on slashdot in the bitcoin-related stories.
No noticeable country says that bitcoin is illegal. Barter is legal almost everywhere, so currencies are also legal. And the fact is, when it comes to bitcoin the US Government is a major market participant at this point.
Bitcoin is way less anonymous than US Dollars, there is no question of that. No question at all. So if you're self-identifying as one of the "anti-government types," then yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. You believe something less anonymous to have been a step towards anonymity. You seem to fail to notice that I didn't pass any judgment or present any opinion on if anonymous payment is good or bad. I'm just pointing at the popular set of opinions that contract themselves. I would expect people who really believe in anonymous payment to use only non-electronic payment, at least until there is some sort of central authority that is trusted to maintain anonymity can back an electronic currency. You can't have a fiat currency without trust; you either need a trusted central authority, or the ability to track units of currency back to their original source, as in bitcoin. Lacking those, the most anonymous you can be is with cash, and things like CC cards purchased with cash, gift cards, or even money orders using an unknown alias.
And how can bitcoin be a protest against unjust laws, when bitcoin is legal? That makes no sense at all.
True. But bad Node.js code is faster than bad Ruby code. Will probably have even more bugs in it, though, because of the limitations present in both Javascript and Node.js.
False. There is no limit to how bad or slow bad code can be. The bad code will suck, and will get refactored.
Anonymity was never a feature. Whoever thought that didn't read the bitcoin summary.;) You not only know where it came from, you know where it has been, too.
The only reason it is popular is that governments didn't have tracking in place so it gained popularity as a currency for drug purchases. They do now have that tracking in place, however, so that ship sailed.
I think the paranoid anti-government crowd are just not good enough at comprehension to know what they're saying or why. They heard that bitcoin was anti-government, so they decided it must be full of magical anonymous unicorns with anonymous rainbow farts.
There is literally no opening for a squirrel to get inside. It would need to be able to use hand tools, and it would need to be at least 3' tall just to get leverage on the wrench.
I'm not from a rich State, but I doubt a transformer with the sort of openings that would let a squirrel in would be approved by the State PUC.
Even something much smaller like a European Starling can't get inside a transformer to nest.
And there is no technological reason for a transformer to have such openings. If you know how they work it is absurd to have that as a problem. Metal cooling fins don't need to pass air at all, much less have giant squirrel holes. If you do a google image search on pole-mount transformers you'll see what I mean; vertical fins that are bolted or riveted into place with no air passage between inside and outside the case.
You're the exception that proves it. Most of the region has great uptime, and also lots of trees, urban and rural both. When there are outages from snow or ice, they get fixed very rapidly. There are agencies that track the response times, they are frequently published. It isn't just my one utility, it is dozens of public utilities in the region that are all awesome. Even the rural ones without a single real city manage to maintain good uptime.
Heavy rain doesn't impact the lines at all. If your lines are affected by rain, wow, your commercial utility is pillaging you hard. Wind and ice are the only reasons power should ever go out in this region. Things like "heavy rain" and "squirrels" are excuses only commercial utilities try. They don't have transparency, nobody can FOIA their service logs, so I guess some of their customers will believe them...
Ruby has good type safety because while it is dynamically typed, it is also strongly typed. It is just a straw-man. People actually using Ruby know if type safety is an issue, or not.;) (hint: not)
No, what he's saying is that Rails wasn't written to be a framework for others to use, it was written to solve the real problems that the consultancy that created had to solve for their clients. And it was such a huge success, they gave it away to the world to promote their consultancy business. Which was also successful.
That it has always been solving real problems first, and isn't born from ideology, might explain pretty much everything about its success.
Kernel hackers should have at least a few hours toying with all of the modern languages so that they understand how the OS is used by the applications that do whatever tasks the computers are there to do. Kernels aren't useful without applications. Haters gotta hate, but hate is no reason not to learn the basics of the industry you work in. Especially if you fancy yourself as having an important role of some sort.
Not all mathematicians will need to use all the techniques that are taught. But they still are expected to have learned them at some point, even if their job ends up not using some type of method.
You can't know what tool you need when you come across the situation the tool is for, unless you learn as least the basics of all the tools that are used in your area of work. If you've never used a screwdriver because you decided, without having used it, that hammers are better, then you'll still be using the hammer. How are you going to avoid "every problem looks like a nail" without learning more tools that you don't already know you have a use for?
Embedded systems have mRuby, which is super-hot in robotics right now. It is a set of C libraries, you can pick and choose which parts of the language you want to build in, and it runs almost anywhere with 32bit registers and x (some small amount) RAM.
Ruby has real advantages in the way it combines Smalltalk object semantics with C/Perl style syntax. It is important to learn, even if you're not going to use it, because it is one of the big ideas in the industry over the past few decades. I got interested in Ruby in the late 90s when Larry Wall said, "if you want to write everything using OOP than Ruby is a better language than Perl." I did wait for English manuals, though.
And yes, a carpenter who is writing software should really consider Ruby because it is easy to learn and you can go a long ways with "baby Ruby" without having to learn a bunch of extra crap. The Principle of Least Surprise and related concepts are a great benefit to the casual user.
The thing is, if you assume the exact same idiots actually get hired either way, their bad Ruby isn't any worse than their bad PHP would be. So that is not different enough to matter in the evaluation. Good try though, it was almost coherent.
Yeah, but using tools to that level requires reading manuals, and finding out what the features are before you decide if you hate it or not. It is so much simpler to just learn one way of doing things, and then muddle through with it forever, and install crap on servers by hand. Sure, it takes more work and doesn't scale, but it doesn't require more than one learning cycle per 3 decades. So there will always be a contingent that promote this way, and try to find ways of making themselves sound like Very Serious People.
Yeah, Ruby remains slightly slow because we trade code clarity for speed. The speed and memory usage have both improved drastically over the years, to where now performance is quite good. Not leading, of course. Because only optimization and changes that retain simplicity are used. We don't care about runtime speed, though we increase it when we can do so without giving anything up. What matters more is that we can scale horizontally well, and maintain portability without a lot of repetition and platform-specific gobblygook.
Ruby has an awesome C API, where everything in "Ruby" is also available in C, and so something that needs tight loops and bare-metal whatever, we can do that, and still have a high level interface to whatever we did. We can do the hard parts in C, and still have the app logic that ties it together in Ruby. So you don't even hit a wall where "this software should be in a different language," or "this tool doesn't work for this job." Instead you get, "this class should be implemented in C."
So however fast the C compiler's code is, our code can be that fast if we need it to be. And the Ruby interpreter can remain optimized for readability and ease of bug-fixing. It is like having a whole toolbox and being allowed to use more than one tool for a job. A lot of languages, you choose a tool from the toolbox, and now you have build everything with it, with the only ways around that involving networked interfaces.
Ruby is not used because it is "cool," and as somebody using Ruby for 10 years now, it is total hogwash. It is absolutely not encountered.
Ruby is chosen by managers because it is popular with programmers who use it and based on that you can hire a lot of talented people. There is significant competition for programmers, and using languages that are pleasant to program in is a real advantage.
And of course, it is chosen by programmers because it is pragmatic and modern OO without a bunch of ideological bullshit. And there is a really clean C interface, you can write your entire "Ruby" application in C if you want. And in fact, the majority of library code is in C.
The truth is, when you have a modern high-level language on top of a very simple, low level C API, that can access all language features, it can become difficult to find a job it is a demonstrably poor tool for. Even if I have a lot of stuff that I want to be in C, it is still nice to have the higher level application flow in a modern OO language.
Most things, Ruby gives 2 interfaces; high level modern, and thin wrapper over the old *nix C libs. Networking is done that way, for example. There are a wide variety of networking classes providing different levels of interface, all the way down to thin wrappers for C sockets.
If you know how to hand code HTML, you can determined what went wrong with the HTML that another program spits out. As a QA tester at one company in the late 1990's, I wrote many tickets for the website team to fix the HTML that Dreamweaver and FrontPage generated.
If you have custom made shoes, your cobbler can take those shoes apart in a few years, determine which parts took the most wear, and replace them. You get a shoe that is better than new, with the broken-in parts that didn't wear still in place. That makes for a better than new fit. And the new fit on a custom shoe is already pretty awesome.
There are still people doing it, there is even a local cobbler who will teach people to make their own shoes at home, in exchange for making 1 pair of shoes for him to sell in his store. That is the bottom end, though. I was pricing some custom shoes and there are a number of people doing it in the $3000-5000 range.
I still hand-code much of my HTML. But it absolutely does NOT bring the advantages it used to. The frameworks produce polished output these days.
We have trees lining every street in the city, even in commercial and industrial zones. It is only a problem if your utility is lazy. Our temperate climate is squirrel heaven, and they're not even a real problem for transformers. Your utility company might be ignoring maintenance and blaming squirrels, and you might have fallen for it. We have almost 100% overhead lines, too. Squirrels use them as roads. No problem.
My advice to communities... have a public utility that isn't controlled by the city or other general-purpose politicians, and elect engineers to the board. It works really well.
That is why in the Pacific Northwest where trees grow faster than any other part of the US, and cities are full of trees, there is reliable power almost everywhere.
Slashdot Mirror
Right, the very smallest stuff it is not realistic to add a lot of high level features to the language running on the hardware, you'd want the high level stuff to be code generators running on the development workstation. But where you have more complicated processing needs, for example inside factory robots, then mRuby is getting a lot of use. It was funded by Japanese heavy industry.
strictly speaking, mRuby is just a framework for C. It is basically impossible to use unless you're already using C as your main language. You don't need to run the interpreter to use it, or to evaluate any Ruby code, you can use it entirely for the type system for example. It is like Lua. It is really useful to have in the bag for prototyping, and the end result is still C.
or
I'm honestly very surprised to find multiple people in the same thread who not only don't know the word "fad," but apparently can't even operate a dictionary. If it is not temporary, it is not a fad. Disco was a fad because it was temporarily very popular, and then went back to not being very popular, except as a funny thing from the past. Rails, OTOH, was quickly popular, and has remained steadily popular for reasons having nothing to do with a fashion, craze, or following. Rather, it is seen as a quality tool for building dynamic websites rapidly and with polished results.
There are plenty of better languages to learn over Ruby if people need to learn the "basics of the industry". Ruby is only marginally more popular than moribund languages like Delphi.
That's pretty derpy. Haters hate, but you might want to check your data source on that one. I doubt it is based on programmer demand.
But lets see, there is a linked article! Maybe it says something relevant. Oh, it talks about programmer pay, a realistic gauge of demand. Turns out RubyOnRails is at the top of the list.
You really, seriously are going to come out and claim that Pascal is almost as popular as Ruby? In 2014? That wasn't even true 10 years ago, but it was closer.
They don't need a rubber hose, that is for the spooks. Law enforcement can easily just get a court order and you'll turn up at their office with your lawyer and blockchain data.
In the US most phones don't have interchangeable sim cards, but you can buy a dumb phone with cash for $15-20 at a convenience store, and buy cards there to pay the account.
TOR is encrypted but it isn't anonymous if the government knows about at least n nodes, which they do. And they control a large number that they have seized, it is broadly believed that the NSA owns enough of the nodes to see all the network traffic.
They have confiscated enough bitcoins that they can actually track most of the market now, for various reasons that have been explained on slashdot in the bitcoin-related stories.
No noticeable country says that bitcoin is illegal. Barter is legal almost everywhere, so currencies are also legal. And the fact is, when it comes to bitcoin the US Government is a major market participant at this point.
Bitcoin is way less anonymous than US Dollars, there is no question of that. No question at all. So if you're self-identifying as one of the "anti-government types," then yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. You believe something less anonymous to have been a step towards anonymity. You seem to fail to notice that I didn't pass any judgment or present any opinion on if anonymous payment is good or bad. I'm just pointing at the popular set of opinions that contract themselves. I would expect people who really believe in anonymous payment to use only non-electronic payment, at least until there is some sort of central authority that is trusted to maintain anonymity can back an electronic currency. You can't have a fiat currency without trust; you either need a trusted central authority, or the ability to track units of currency back to their original source, as in bitcoin. Lacking those, the most anonymous you can be is with cash, and things like CC cards purchased with cash, gift cards, or even money orders using an unknown alias.
And how can bitcoin be a protest against unjust laws, when bitcoin is legal? That makes no sense at all.
True. But bad Node.js code is faster than bad Ruby code. Will probably have even more bugs in it, though, because of the limitations present in both Javascript and Node.js.
False. There is no limit to how bad or slow bad code can be. The bad code will suck, and will get refactored.
Anonymity was never a feature. Whoever thought that didn't read the bitcoin summary. ;) You not only know where it came from, you know where it has been, too.
The only reason it is popular is that governments didn't have tracking in place so it gained popularity as a currency for drug purchases. They do now have that tracking in place, however, so that ship sailed.
I think the paranoid anti-government crowd are just not good enough at comprehension to know what they're saying or why. They heard that bitcoin was anti-government, so they decided it must be full of magical anonymous unicorns with anonymous rainbow farts.
There is literally no opening for a squirrel to get inside. It would need to be able to use hand tools, and it would need to be at least 3' tall just to get leverage on the wrench.
I'm not from a rich State, but I doubt a transformer with the sort of openings that would let a squirrel in would be approved by the State PUC.
Even something much smaller like a European Starling can't get inside a transformer to nest.
And there is no technological reason for a transformer to have such openings. If you know how they work it is absurd to have that as a problem. Metal cooling fins don't need to pass air at all, much less have giant squirrel holes. If you do a google image search on pole-mount transformers you'll see what I mean; vertical fins that are bolted or riveted into place with no air passage between inside and outside the case.
You're the exception that proves it. Most of the region has great uptime, and also lots of trees, urban and rural both. When there are outages from snow or ice, they get fixed very rapidly. There are agencies that track the response times, they are frequently published. It isn't just my one utility, it is dozens of public utilities in the region that are all awesome. Even the rural ones without a single real city manage to maintain good uptime.
Heavy rain doesn't impact the lines at all. If your lines are affected by rain, wow, your commercial utility is pillaging you hard. Wind and ice are the only reasons power should ever go out in this region. Things like "heavy rain" and "squirrels" are excuses only commercial utilities try. They don't have transparency, nobody can FOIA their service logs, so I guess some of their customers will believe them...
Ruby has good type safety because while it is dynamically typed, it is also strongly typed. It is just a straw-man. People actually using Ruby know if type safety is an issue, or not. ;) (hint: not)
Rails has been out for 10 years. You keep using this word "fad" but I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
No, what he's saying is that Rails wasn't written to be a framework for others to use, it was written to solve the real problems that the consultancy that created had to solve for their clients. And it was such a huge success, they gave it away to the world to promote their consultancy business. Which was also successful.
That it has always been solving real problems first, and isn't born from ideology, might explain pretty much everything about its success.
Kernel hackers should have at least a few hours toying with all of the modern languages so that they understand how the OS is used by the applications that do whatever tasks the computers are there to do. Kernels aren't useful without applications. Haters gotta hate, but hate is no reason not to learn the basics of the industry you work in. Especially if you fancy yourself as having an important role of some sort.
Not all mathematicians will need to use all the techniques that are taught. But they still are expected to have learned them at some point, even if their job ends up not using some type of method.
You can't know what tool you need when you come across the situation the tool is for, unless you learn as least the basics of all the tools that are used in your area of work. If you've never used a screwdriver because you decided, without having used it, that hammers are better, then you'll still be using the hammer. How are you going to avoid "every problem looks like a nail" without learning more tools that you don't already know you have a use for?
Embedded systems have mRuby, which is super-hot in robotics right now. It is a set of C libraries, you can pick and choose which parts of the language you want to build in, and it runs almost anywhere with 32bit registers and x (some small amount) RAM.
Ruby has real advantages in the way it combines Smalltalk object semantics with C/Perl style syntax. It is important to learn, even if you're not going to use it, because it is one of the big ideas in the industry over the past few decades. I got interested in Ruby in the late 90s when Larry Wall said, "if you want to write everything using OOP than Ruby is a better language than Perl." I did wait for English manuals, though.
And yes, a carpenter who is writing software should really consider Ruby because it is easy to learn and you can go a long ways with "baby Ruby" without having to learn a bunch of extra crap. The Principle of Least Surprise and related concepts are a great benefit to the casual user.
Shut the fuck up, Ruby shill.
What an excellent, well-thought-out rebuttal! I'm sure everybody will flock to adopt your analysis.
I could replace you with a Ruby bot in under 10 lines of code, and nobody would notice the difference.
The thing is, if you assume the exact same idiots actually get hired either way, their bad Ruby isn't any worse than their bad PHP would be. So that is not different enough to matter in the evaluation. Good try though, it was almost coherent.
Yeah, but using tools to that level requires reading manuals, and finding out what the features are before you decide if you hate it or not. It is so much simpler to just learn one way of doing things, and then muddle through with it forever, and install crap on servers by hand. Sure, it takes more work and doesn't scale, but it doesn't require more than one learning cycle per 3 decades. So there will always be a contingent that promote this way, and try to find ways of making themselves sound like Very Serious People.
Yeah, Ruby remains slightly slow because we trade code clarity for speed. The speed and memory usage have both improved drastically over the years, to where now performance is quite good. Not leading, of course. Because only optimization and changes that retain simplicity are used. We don't care about runtime speed, though we increase it when we can do so without giving anything up. What matters more is that we can scale horizontally well, and maintain portability without a lot of repetition and platform-specific gobblygook.
Ruby has an awesome C API, where everything in "Ruby" is also available in C, and so something that needs tight loops and bare-metal whatever, we can do that, and still have a high level interface to whatever we did. We can do the hard parts in C, and still have the app logic that ties it together in Ruby. So you don't even hit a wall where "this software should be in a different language," or "this tool doesn't work for this job." Instead you get, "this class should be implemented in C."
So however fast the C compiler's code is, our code can be that fast if we need it to be. And the Ruby interpreter can remain optimized for readability and ease of bug-fixing. It is like having a whole toolbox and being allowed to use more than one tool for a job. A lot of languages, you choose a tool from the toolbox, and now you have build everything with it, with the only ways around that involving networked interfaces.
Ruby is not used because it is "cool," and as somebody using Ruby for 10 years now, it is total hogwash. It is absolutely not encountered.
Ruby is chosen by managers because it is popular with programmers who use it and based on that you can hire a lot of talented people. There is significant competition for programmers, and using languages that are pleasant to program in is a real advantage.
And of course, it is chosen by programmers because it is pragmatic and modern OO without a bunch of ideological bullshit. And there is a really clean C interface, you can write your entire "Ruby" application in C if you want. And in fact, the majority of library code is in C.
The truth is, when you have a modern high-level language on top of a very simple, low level C API, that can access all language features, it can become difficult to find a job it is a demonstrably poor tool for. Even if I have a lot of stuff that I want to be in C, it is still nice to have the higher level application flow in a modern OO language.
Most things, Ruby gives 2 interfaces; high level modern, and thin wrapper over the old *nix C libs. Networking is done that way, for example. There are a wide variety of networking classes providing different levels of interface, all the way down to thin wrappers for C sockets.
I don't think I've ever heard of Zed talking about how great Ruby on Rails is.
http://harmful.cat-v.org/softw...
I started using it in `04, so I doubt that.
If you know how to hand code HTML, you can determined what went wrong with the HTML that another program spits out. As a QA tester at one company in the late 1990's, I wrote many tickets for the website team to fix the HTML that Dreamweaver and FrontPage generated.
If you have custom made shoes, your cobbler can take those shoes apart in a few years, determine which parts took the most wear, and replace them. You get a shoe that is better than new, with the broken-in parts that didn't wear still in place. That makes for a better than new fit. And the new fit on a custom shoe is already pretty awesome.
There are still people doing it, there is even a local cobbler who will teach people to make their own shoes at home, in exchange for making 1 pair of shoes for him to sell in his store. That is the bottom end, though. I was pricing some custom shoes and there are a number of people doing it in the $3000-5000 range.
I still hand-code much of my HTML. But it absolutely does NOT bring the advantages it used to. The frameworks produce polished output these days.
We have trees lining every street in the city, even in commercial and industrial zones. It is only a problem if your utility is lazy. Our temperate climate is squirrel heaven, and they're not even a real problem for transformers. Your utility company might be ignoring maintenance and blaming squirrels, and you might have fallen for it. We have almost 100% overhead lines, too. Squirrels use them as roads. No problem.
My advice to communities... have a public utility that isn't controlled by the city or other general-purpose politicians, and elect engineers to the board. It works really well.
That is why in the Pacific Northwest where trees grow faster than any other part of the US, and cities are full of trees, there is reliable power almost everywhere.