Yeah, well I do know the <br/> tag;) But I guess I chose the wrong post mode - hey I never posted here before. How about the geniuses behind this site figure out a way to let me EDIT my freaking post like 95% of the rest of online forums. And I agree with what yer sayin.
The amount of misinformation and just flat out false comments (like the commenter stating there is no proof for the gains mentioned) in this thread is *astounding* - absolutely astounding.
I have been a front-end developer for over 10 years. I know some back end stuff too, but my stock and trade is on the client side. Slashdot is more of a back end guys meeting place. I read stuff here occasionally but this is not a regular stop for me, but I stopped by for this article. I finally registered here just to comment on this.
Anyway, one thing has remained true in my 10 years - back end developers/engineers are the worst front end coders in the world - hands down (In fact, most of the HTML I see from them is IDE generated or code from circa 1996). I would say this is true 90% of the time. Sometimes you find a person who actually cares, but rarely. Most back end guys see the client side code as just something that is not nearly important as the back end code. They don't care what is looks like, just as long as it works. I'm sure not every person is like this, but again in my experience, the majority are - and it's mainly because they don't see the benefits.
I make this point because most back end folks have the same ideas in their head like this guy above who thinks there is no real proof for the benefits of standards. It's about the dumbest comment you can make regarding standards.
The benefits of standards have been so beaten to death that it isn't even funny.
The most high profile switch to a standards compliant site was Wired.com, done by Douglas Bowman. Wired saved *millions* of dollars by doing this - and they continue to save lots of money by using standards. Various HUGE sites like ESPN followed suit - and the trend has continued for YEARS - yes, years.
In fact, now practically any high profile site that redesigns, redesigns using standards. Hmm...wonder why. Wonder why Yahoo! has been a standards advocate for years (and no, their pages don't validate either - that is not the point) - maybe because they serve out a few BILLION pages?
And in large sites, you are definitely dealing with templates, so it's actually easier to do. As many have said, standards are important, and I would NEVER (and I do not) hire a client side guy who is not versed in standards.
In fact, we just fired a guy on my current project because his code was such a mess.
Validation is a tool - not a goal. Validation helps you write clean code, that's all. If you need some custom tags or whatever, go for it. If you must use a table, use one. Standards is about more than just pleasing some validator, and if you think it isn't - you don't know jack about standards.
Google 'benefits of web standards' and read to your heart's content.
And the goofball who posted about xml/xhtml and not using and complaining that you'll have an open tag has no clue. The proper way to close a script tag even in XHTML is Any client side guy knows this. Not every tag is minimized like
If you are going to spout off about standards, do some reading first so you know what you are talking about. Standards matter in the business world where you are feeding lots of pages and lots of data. Ironically, standards are less effective on your personal blog (where you see all the XHTML compliant tags) which nobody actually reads. Still good to do, but you get my point.
In the end it's about clean and well written code. Don't you do that on the back end? Why wouldn't you do it on the front end? Laziness? Ignorance? Don't care? I can't imagine.
So, yeah, if you're some hack working in your PJs at home 20 hours a week, who cares. If you actually work in the business world and don't care about standards to at least some extent, you are doing your company, your clients, your users and yourself a huge disservice. You are wasting money, time and resources. And you are frankly, not doing your job./Rant off.
Slashdot Mirror
Yeah, well I do know the <br /> tag ;) But I guess I chose the wrong post mode - hey I never posted here before. How about the geniuses behind this site figure out a way to let me EDIT my freaking post like 95% of the rest of online forums. And I agree with what yer sayin.
Kthxbye.
The amount of misinformation and just flat out false comments (like the commenter stating there is no proof for the gains mentioned) in this thread is *astounding* - absolutely astounding. I have been a front-end developer for over 10 years. I know some back end stuff too, but my stock and trade is on the client side. Slashdot is more of a back end guys meeting place. I read stuff here occasionally but this is not a regular stop for me, but I stopped by for this article. I finally registered here just to comment on this. Anyway, one thing has remained true in my 10 years - back end developers/engineers are the worst front end coders in the world - hands down (In fact, most of the HTML I see from them is IDE generated or code from circa 1996). I would say this is true 90% of the time. Sometimes you find a person who actually cares, but rarely. Most back end guys see the client side code as just something that is not nearly important as the back end code. They don't care what is looks like, just as long as it works. I'm sure not every person is like this, but again in my experience, the majority are - and it's mainly because they don't see the benefits. I make this point because most back end folks have the same ideas in their head like this guy above who thinks there is no real proof for the benefits of standards. It's about the dumbest comment you can make regarding standards. The benefits of standards have been so beaten to death that it isn't even funny. The most high profile switch to a standards compliant site was Wired.com, done by Douglas Bowman. Wired saved *millions* of dollars by doing this - and they continue to save lots of money by using standards. Various HUGE sites like ESPN followed suit - and the trend has continued for YEARS - yes, years. In fact, now practically any high profile site that redesigns, redesigns using standards. Hmm...wonder why. Wonder why Yahoo! has been a standards advocate for years (and no, their pages don't validate either - that is not the point) - maybe because they serve out a few BILLION pages? And in large sites, you are definitely dealing with templates, so it's actually easier to do. As many have said, standards are important, and I would NEVER (and I do not) hire a client side guy who is not versed in standards. In fact, we just fired a guy on my current project because his code was such a mess. Validation is a tool - not a goal. Validation helps you write clean code, that's all. If you need some custom tags or whatever, go for it. If you must use a table, use one. Standards is about more than just pleasing some validator, and if you think it isn't - you don't know jack about standards. Google 'benefits of web standards' and read to your heart's content. And the goofball who posted about xml/xhtml and not using and complaining that you'll have an open tag has no clue. The proper way to close a script tag even in XHTML is Any client side guy knows this. Not every tag is minimized like /Rant off.
If you are going to spout off about standards, do some reading first so you know what you are talking about. Standards matter in the business world where you are feeding lots of pages and lots of data. Ironically, standards are less effective on your personal blog (where you see all the XHTML compliant tags) which nobody actually reads. Still good to do, but you get my point. In the end it's about clean and well written code. Don't you do that on the back end? Why wouldn't you do it on the front end? Laziness? Ignorance? Don't care? I can't imagine. So, yeah, if you're some hack working in your PJs at home 20 hours a week, who cares. If you actually work in the business world and don't care about standards to at least some extent, you are doing your company, your clients, your users and yourself a huge disservice. You are wasting money, time and resources. And you are frankly, not doing your job.