Well put, sir! This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a professor in college. I was a computer engineering major and as I was taking some elective classes, in particular Economics 101, I just was befuddled at the fact that people were getting 50s and 60s on the tests.
This eco class was unbelievably easy - it didn't even require purchasing the book - all that you needed was the prof's notes and 20 minutes to half of an hour before the exams to ace them. The class involved simple supply and demand and very basic algebra. Most of it, to be honest, was what I thought of as "common sense". (According to supply and demand, if there is a dramatic shortage of jet fuel, and the demand for flights remains constant: jet fuel prices rise? jet fuel prices lower? jet fuel prices stay the same?)
Anyway, being a strapping young engineering student, with all my common sense, I was confused about how people could fail this sort of test - and man was I missing the point! My professor politely informed me that there is a reason for the terminology "above the curve".
I hear what you're seeing Dino, but the point that I was trying to make revolves around the fact that the child went to the principal and told him that he was depressed and that his self esteem was lowered. Anyway, maybe this wasn't such a good example - but to reinforce the parenting issue as part of it, i'll give you another.
Larry gets some bad grades on tests/projects. It's parent/teacher conference time.
Parent: "So why did you give Larry a 40 and send out a bad progress report for this period?"
Teacher: "Larry has a tendency to disturb others in class, and he frequently speaks out of turn in class. He also never seems to hand in his homework."
Parent: "Well, as far as I know, Larry works hard. He deserves better grades than this. He tells me that you are a bad teacher and that you ignore him when he asks for help."
I'm going to keep it as simple as that. I will provide this next example while feeling very old. (This is what went down with myself and friends when I was in elementary/middle school.)
Me: "Mom, Mrs. R is so terrible to me, she yells at me, and I do nothing wrong, (really I was bothering others) she keeps mistaking me for someone else!
Mom: "Ok we'll go down and talk to her."
Mom: "So what is the story with Matt's grades and behavior?"
Teacher: "Well, he constantly speaks out of turn and makes sarcastic comments when I ask him to stop"
Mom: "That's it...your behavior is going to change or...
So from what I can tell, you probably won't like this idea either because you seem to think that punishment is a bad idea in general, but I will tell you this: I ended up with straight A's for that year and many years after.
Some previous replies have captured many of my thoughts, but I will state them anyway. I believe that the problem is much bigger than the education system itself. It has already been mentioned that parents now expect the teachers to "parent" for them, and this is very close to the truth. I have several family members who are middle and high school teachers and they will tell you that many parents either side with the child in disciplinary situations or else they actually *gasp* ask what they are supposed to do to make Johnny or Jill do homework. (Maybe they should have thought of the answer to this one when making the decision to have children.)
The main problem carries well beyond the education system - in my opinion. I have come to the conclusion that the idea of "self esteem" that stemmed from the '90s is the cause of the downward spiral. Real world example: My cousin - who is a middle school math teacher - told a student to stop disrupting other students in class. The student continued disrupting others a few minutes after being told to behave, so my cousin sternly said, ", if you do not stop disrupting the other members of the class, I'm going to have to send you to the office." Later in the day, my cousin was approached by the principal who said, "We've got a problem, showed up at my office and said that he was upset and uncomfortable with being in your class, because you screamed at him and hurt his self esteem."
Without ranting about this much longer - after discussing this topic with my cousin, we have come to the conclusion that respect is no longer earned. That is, where in previous days if you wanted to goof a bit in high school, you could work hard, get exceptional grades, be involved, but every once and awhile take a break and do a prank or something and pay small consequences for it. Now, kids believe that they can do whatever the hell they want and the teachers just have to keep trying to work with them because they have fragile self esteem and are "entitled" to respect.
Slashdot Mirror
Well put, sir! This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a professor in college. I was a computer engineering major and as I was taking some elective classes, in particular Economics 101, I just was befuddled at the fact that people were getting 50s and 60s on the tests. This eco class was unbelievably easy - it didn't even require purchasing the book - all that you needed was the prof's notes and 20 minutes to half of an hour before the exams to ace them. The class involved simple supply and demand and very basic algebra. Most of it, to be honest, was what I thought of as "common sense". (According to supply and demand, if there is a dramatic shortage of jet fuel, and the demand for flights remains constant: jet fuel prices rise? jet fuel prices lower? jet fuel prices stay the same?) Anyway, being a strapping young engineering student, with all my common sense, I was confused about how people could fail this sort of test - and man was I missing the point! My professor politely informed me that there is a reason for the terminology "above the curve".
I hear what you're seeing Dino, but the point that I was trying to make revolves around the fact that the child went to the principal and told him that he was depressed and that his self esteem was lowered. Anyway, maybe this wasn't such a good example - but to reinforce the parenting issue as part of it, i'll give you another. Larry gets some bad grades on tests/projects. It's parent/teacher conference time. Parent: "So why did you give Larry a 40 and send out a bad progress report for this period?" Teacher: "Larry has a tendency to disturb others in class, and he frequently speaks out of turn in class. He also never seems to hand in his homework." Parent: "Well, as far as I know, Larry works hard. He deserves better grades than this. He tells me that you are a bad teacher and that you ignore him when he asks for help." I'm going to keep it as simple as that. I will provide this next example while feeling very old. (This is what went down with myself and friends when I was in elementary/middle school.) Me: "Mom, Mrs. R is so terrible to me, she yells at me, and I do nothing wrong, (really I was bothering others) she keeps mistaking me for someone else! Mom: "Ok we'll go down and talk to her." Mom: "So what is the story with Matt's grades and behavior?" Teacher: "Well, he constantly speaks out of turn and makes sarcastic comments when I ask him to stop" Mom: "That's it...your behavior is going to change or... So from what I can tell, you probably won't like this idea either because you seem to think that punishment is a bad idea in general, but I will tell you this: I ended up with straight A's for that year and many years after.
Some previous replies have captured many of my thoughts, but I will state them anyway. I believe that the problem is much bigger than the education system itself. It has already been mentioned that parents now expect the teachers to "parent" for them, and this is very close to the truth. I have several family members who are middle and high school teachers and they will tell you that many parents either side with the child in disciplinary situations or else they actually *gasp* ask what they are supposed to do to make Johnny or Jill do homework. (Maybe they should have thought of the answer to this one when making the decision to have children.) The main problem carries well beyond the education system - in my opinion. I have come to the conclusion that the idea of "self esteem" that stemmed from the '90s is the cause of the downward spiral. Real world example: My cousin - who is a middle school math teacher - told a student to stop disrupting other students in class. The student continued disrupting others a few minutes after being told to behave, so my cousin sternly said, ", if you do not stop disrupting the other members of the class, I'm going to have to send you to the office." Later in the day, my cousin was approached by the principal who said, "We've got a problem, showed up at my office and said that he was upset and uncomfortable with being in your class, because you screamed at him and hurt his self esteem." Without ranting about this much longer - after discussing this topic with my cousin, we have come to the conclusion that respect is no longer earned. That is, where in previous days if you wanted to goof a bit in high school, you could work hard, get exceptional grades, be involved, but every once and awhile take a break and do a prank or something and pay small consequences for it. Now, kids believe that they can do whatever the hell they want and the teachers just have to keep trying to work with them because they have fragile self esteem and are "entitled" to respect.