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The real problem is large ISPs/backbones like UUNet/MCI, Cogent, Comcast, Level3, China Netcom, AT&T, Brasil Telecom, and Above.net (among others) who flat-out refuse to do anything about the spammers to whom they provide connectivity.

Complaints sent to any of them are promptly auto-acked and then /dev/nulled (if they don't bounce) and so the spammers keep on spamming, most likely due to ephemeral pink contracts and the crooked marketing/sales departments that agree to them, who then put pressure on abuse personel and network admins to ignore complaints about the contracted spammers.

Because of this, those large ISPs and backbones end up on blacklists, DNS blocklists, and a wide variety of other filters. For them, the money they make off the spammers seems to be of greater concern than the money they make off legitimate customers, i.e. those who end up with their netblocks on every blacklist because of who their providers are.

If it weren't for rogue ISPs and backbones, there would be little use for blacklists or blocklists. However, those reprehensible companies do exist. And because of their policies on spam, they continue to be blocked. Money gained from spammers guarantees the blacklists' continued existence.

It's all just cause and effect. As much as it sounds like a conspiracy theory, I truly believe that it isn't, after fighting spam, one email at a time, since 1997.

Took me 14 degrees.

Never sign a contract for more than one year on a leased line, or 6 months for colo.

I ran an ISP for about three years, until around mid '99. It's not my main business any more, but I still have a couple of hosting clients for high bandwidth sites. the ISP business is TOUGH. The competition is insane, so the approach most ISPs take these days is to advertise really high prices while offering competitive rates only to those who haggle and know how to shop around.

Here's what I've been spending, year by year on Internet service. I've switched providers several times over the years due to changing needs wrt colo vs leased line, and varying costs. I've now been with Hurricane Electric for over a year. They are outstandanding, but you'll have to haggle to get a good price.

1997-1998 - 3 bonded centrex ISDN lines from Brainstorm, 384Kbps: $750/mo
1999 - shelf and 1Mbps at Above.net plus a ptp T1: $2000 + $450/mo
2000 - shelf and 1.5 Mbps at maxim.net: $700/mo
2001 - ptp t1 to Hurricane: $650 ISP, $350 XO for the line
2002 - shelf at Hurricane and 2MBPS: $650. PTP T1 to my shelf: $350

As you can see, over the years the cost of connectivity has fallen from $1822/mbps to about $500. That's not just per MBPS, I'm talking about a complete package - remote connectivity for 1-2MBPS upstream.

The cost of installing fiber is still outrageous, but the fluctuations in demand have resulted in a surplus of strands in the ground. I've coordinated fiber installations before - trust me it's a BIG deal. Trenching, conduit, permits, dealing with the city and the fscking retarded telcos. It's no fun, it's EXPENSIVE, and it can take upwards of three months just to get 100 yards of fiber in the ground. But now that the fiber is there, ISPs and telcos can start using it as soon as there's demand, just by connecting the needed equipment.

Also don't forget that the same strands can usually be used for OC3, OC12, GigE, etc. So it's not just that there are unused strands in the ground, there is also a ton of equipment that can be upgraded to increase the capacity of the strands we're using.

Bandwidth costs still have a long way to fall!

http://www.qwest.com/about/qwest/QwestCyberCenters /NA_IP_Network_map_large.jpg

http://www.above.net/network/index.html

It's wonders what you can do when you also own the dark fiber/DWDM gear... Split a few lambdas off for yourself, sell the rest to cover your costs... Not too bad if you can afford it.

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I was visiting one of Above.Net's hosting facilities a few weeks ago, as my employer haqs decided to use them as a hosting facility. They use a flywheel storage/conditioning system, and have for some time now. Above Surface. And not all that big. . . Pretty slick, plus they have redundancy. As I recall, the flywheel/UPS/powerconditioner is a German product, sorry, no specs on the manufaturer. . .

No shit, Sherlock?

http://www.above.net/anti-spam.html

NOTE: The MAPS RBL is used by AboveNet to help reduce the amount of spam received by customers. AboveNet cannot remove you, your customers, or remote sites from the RBL. Please contact the RBL workers at rbl@mail-abuse.org with RBL-related questions.

Gee whiz, that is even linked from their home page.

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"The RBL only block MAIL!! ... Jamie should learn a few things about the how things work before allowed to post things again."

Readers said the same thing last December; go check the story MAPS RBL is now Censorware, its updated section, the information about the BGP and so on.

Trust me on this. I read it very carefully in December: some ISPs use the RBL to block all traffic, not just mail. Not all ISPs. But one ISP is enough, if that ISP is a major backbone provider.

Jamie McCarthy

Grow up, and get a life.

Grow up, and get a life.

Above.net block only domains relating to ORBS.org AFAIK (As do, it would seem, a growing number of backbone providers) See:

http://www.above.net/cgi-bin/trace?www.orbs.org

http://lg.carrier1.net/

While I do not believe the idea of an RBL is bad one, it must be run responsibly. Not the way Alan Brown (who in a very real sense *IS* ORBS) does it

See?

See?

Please try this traceroute yourself.

(posted anonymously so I dont get fired)

All of ORB's networks have been null routed inside Above.Net, not just Manawatu Internet Services but all of the ORBS testers as well.

This has been done because ORBS violates Above.Net's AUP by sending email probes to any SMTP server they can find probing it for open relay, and also hosting a website that lists every single open relay server that they can find. In many people's book this a big no-no.

Alan Brown, of MIS, who is the perpetrator behind ORBS has turned his bitching and moaning in the direction of MAPS because it gives him the moral high-ground and because Paul Vixie, who runs MAPS is also the CEO of Above.Net.

THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAPS

This is not the first time that Alan has gotten himself in trouble and it wont be the last, however, In this case I do think that Above.Net have gone to far in blocking all transit through their network destined for ORBS. This is ofcourse their right however.

On the alleged issue of Above.Net advertising null routes for ORB's networks to their peers, I can say that this is a complete lie. And I will prove it:

route-server.cerf.net>sh ip bgp 202.36.147.16
BGP routing table entry for 202.36.147.0/24, version 4651414
Paths: (4 available, best #1)
Not advertised to any peer
1740 1 4648 9325
134.24.88.55 (inaccessible) from 134.24.88.55 (134.24.127.27)
Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, best, ref 2
1740 1 4648 9325
192.157.69.5 (inaccessible) from 192.157.69.5 (134.24.127.201)
Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, ref 2
1740 1 4648 9325
192.41.177.69 (inaccessible) from 192.41.177.69 (134.24.127.131)
Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, ref 2
1740 1 4648 9325
198.32.176.25 from 198.32.176.25 (134.24.127.35)
Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, ref 2

So, in summary, ORBS has instituted a splatter campaign against MAPS due to the tenuous link of Paul Vixie to Above.Net, where in essence it has nothing to do with MAPS and everything to do with ORBS repeatedly violating Above.Net's AUP and after repeated warnings from Xtra (MIS's provider), NetGate (Xtra's provider) and Above.Net (NetGate's provider) he still continues to violate AUP's as if it were his sole right to do anything he wants to anyones network.

I have seen several comments blaming Telecom NZ (who own both NetGate and Xtra) for the blocks on ORBS, however it has nothing to do with them and they are simply stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

This post is too long. Sigh.

I've tried to get price quote for services and after I fill up the form at http://www.above.net/company/inquiry.html , I've got Internal server error, so I sent e-mail to webmaster@above.net... And after few hours:

----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors -----
XXXXXX@mog.above.net
(expanded from: <XXXXXX@pobox.eng.sjc.above.net>)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
XXXXXX@mog.above.net... Deferred: Operation timed out with mog.above.net.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old

The inquiry script (formmail.pl) is already fixed though :).

They are not your hand-holding, do everything for you but walk your terrier type provider... what they do give you is rock solid connectivity, excellent 24 tech support (with linux and BSD types handy to help you debug those remote-crash blues), proactive response to network issues, secured air conditioned (read: really fscking cold) facilities and BLAZING fast pipe.

Obviously, this is the sort of thing for people who want to START a WPP (Web Presence Provider) for other people, or who have a behemoth site that needs enormous pipe (think streaming mp3s =). One contractor of mine hosts around 2 dozen machines there, and after the rather unfortunate escapades which occured at Exodus (another big pipe provider), the switch to above.net was like a hit of pure oxygen after a smoggy LA summer afternoon.

Be advised that this sort of thing doesn't come cheap though. Service and pipe like this comes at a premium... but if your site is raking in the big bucks and pushing enough bits that only top quality will suffice, they're definately worthy of examination.

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rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)