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And yoy have the Acorn NewsPAD from '96, you know from the gang that created the ARM :-)

http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Co...

They might switch again if ARM stays ahead of Intel in power efficiency now that ARM CPUs are getting powerful enough to run a desktop

ARM desktops were running circles around x86 in ... 1987.

I used ARM to emulate x86 back then (pdf).

I used ARM in 1987 to emulate x86 running MS-DOS 3 at 8088/PC-XT speed (in the 80286/PC-AT era). I used it to compile Modula-2 assignments and to edit WordPerfect documents.

Most of my friends didn't believe this was even possible ("Yeah, my Mac/Amiga/MSX can also read PC floppies." - "I'm not talking about merely reading the disk format, I'm talking about emulating the complete PC.") until I showed them.

Archimedes PC Emulator documentation (PDF).

An x86 emulator for ARM exists since... 1987. (PDF).

I used it then, the emulator outperformed the 8086 and was on par with the 80286.

Indeed, I bought an ARM then because it was about 4 times as fast as an Intel CPU or the 68000.

'The software on the Apple side could not be placed into the processor on the prior art and vice versa. That means they are not interchangeable. That changed everything right there.'

This guy should read about Allan Turing, who proved some very interesting theorems.

BTW, an x86 emulator for ARM has been in existence since 1987 (PDF)

This is not some old ancient niche that ARM has wrapped up -- these products and markets only appeared within the past 5 years or so.

5 years or so? Not if you count the Apple Newton (1993), the Psion Series 5 (1997) the HP iPaq (2000) and (I think) the Sharp Zaurus (late 90s-mid 00s) - although I think the last 2 actually used Intel's StrongArm or XScale ARM chips. There are also things that never made it but helped set the stage for ARM's share of the mobile and embedded markets.

So yes, smartphones and tablets have boomed in the last 5 years, after Apple came up with a winning formula and everybody else jumped on the bandwagon, but the ideas have been bubbling under for years, and ARM got its feet under the table 20 years ago.

ARM, on the other hand, has not yet tried to compete in PC or server markets.

Yes they did although the venture failed in the end (not necessarily because of the chips). The amusing part is that one of the more widely known models used an ARM chip made by... Intel. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say, but it seemed like an appropriate time to bring up an often overlooked piece of kit.

We had a couple of those quite some time ago, and I don't mind saying that loading the OS from ROM made for some pretty speedy boots. One wonders how differently ARM would be seen today if Windows had been ported to ARM much earlier.

With Intel being the No. 1 supplier of notebook PC processors, and ARM technology almost ubiquitously powering smartphones

Memories of 1987, my 4/8MHz ARM powered Archimedes was running circles around the Intel 80x86 CPUs - heck we even emulated (PDF) Intel to run WordPerfect and a Modula2 compiler.

Indeed, especially since a x86 emulator exists for the ARM since 1987 (PDF).

The 32-bit descendant of the 6502 is the ARM architecture. But half a year ago, ARM had no plans to expand from 40-bit to 64-bit, at least not until RAM hits half terabyte levels.

When the ARM was launched in the late 80s it was a kick-ass desktop workstation processor that could wipe the floor with a 286. They even made an ARM "accelerator card" for the PC (see here and search for "springboard").

In our IBM PC-free alternate universe, the ARM could have taken off on the desktop, inevitably migrated into servers, and would probably have got some 64-bit love rather earlier. Back in the real world, it survived by carving out a niche in mobile/embedded applications, which don't need 64 bits.

Intel went so far as to say that legacy software would "not ever" run on ARM. To do that they have to have to have the stick of software patents to prevent an ARM->x86 emulator.

An x86 emulator for ARM exists since July 1987. Here's a PDF of the manual.

OK, finally we are moving away from x86 and toward RISC. We are only 20 years behind schedule, but hey, better late than never.

MS-DOS was running on ARM's x86 emulator in 1987.

Well, that's not quite the same as running natively on it... even though somewhat similar to how things run on today's 64bit CPUs.

OK, finally we are moving away from x86 and toward RISC. We are only 20 years behind schedule, but hey, better late than never.

MS-DOS was running on ARM's x86 emulator in 1987.

I thought the whole point of ARM was it was super low power for mobile devices?

The ARM didn't start off that way: the first ARM chips (back when the "A" stood for "Acorn" not "Advanced") were designed as tasty desktop/workstation processors for systems like this which could seriously put the wind up the x86s (for x in 2,3,4) of the day. There was even an add-on "accelerator" card for PCs (PDF file). The shift of emphasis to embedded/mobile processors was because Wintel had the desktop market sewn up.

while I'm sure cutting down power usage in the server room would not be a BAD thing,

For anybody with a significant sized server farm, power consumption is a very BIG thing - first you have to pay for all that energy, then you have to pay again for all the air conditioning to get rid of the resulting heat. Also, less heat means you can pack more processors into a smaller space.

considering how much software, both for Windows AND Linux, that isn't for ARM based CPUs

Possibly true for Windows, but no so much for Linux, where most software is distributed as source and there's a long tradition of supporting multiple processor architecture. Debian supports ARM, for example. Heck, how many ARM-based NAS boxes are already out there running Samba and LAMP stacks? If you have Samba, Apache, PHP/Perl/Python and MySQL or PostgreSQL then that's already a pretty big range of server apps.

I thought the whole point of ARM was it was super low power for mobile devices?

The ARM didn't start off that way: the first ARM chips (back when the "A" stood for "Acorn" not "Advanced") were designed as tasty desktop/workstation processors for systems like this which could seriously put the wind up the x86s (for x in 2,3,4) of the day. There was even an add-on "accelerator" card for PCs (PDF file). The shift of emphasis to embedded/mobile processors was because Wintel had the desktop market sewn up.

while I'm sure cutting down power usage in the server room would not be a BAD thing,

For anybody with a significant sized server farm, power consumption is a very BIG thing - first you have to pay for all that energy, then you have to pay again for all the air conditioning to get rid of the resulting heat. Also, less heat means you can pack more processors into a smaller space.

considering how much software, both for Windows AND Linux, that isn't for ARM based CPUs

Possibly true for Windows, but no so much for Linux, where most software is distributed as source and there's a long tradition of supporting multiple processor architecture. Debian supports ARM, for example. Heck, how many ARM-based NAS boxes are already out there running Samba and LAMP stacks? If you have Samba, Apache, PHP/Perl/Python and MySQL or PostgreSQL then that's already a pretty big range of server apps.

There's actually been quite a few enthusiast-oriented ARM development boards as of late. In addition to the BeagleBoard and Gumstix...

Marvell OpenRD Client: http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-openrdcdetails.aspx (much more desktop-oriented, albeit barely able to keep up with Beagle and Gumstix in integer, and lagging WAY behind in floating point (no FPU.))
Genesi EFIKA MX Open Client: http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika

Of course, there's always the Acorn Archimedes 305, which is a complete ARM-based desktop, and is very much aimed at consumers, not just enthusiasts. 8 MHz ARM2 (there were some ARM1s that made it into the public, but they were aimed at developers, not consumers,) 512 kiB RAM, one 800 kiB floppy drive, no hard drive. And for 1987, it was ridiculously fast - IIRC, the only thing that wasn't a *nix workstation that could come within striking distance was a 25 MHz 386, and those cost quite a few times more money for an equivalent spec (and, there was a version of the A440 (same thing with a hard drive interface and 4 MiB RAM) called the R140, which was actually a *nix workstation running a 4.3BSD variant.) ;)

A4, 1992. Newfag.

I don't even want to know what ix86 emulation on ARM is like...

Well, it was ok for light use in 1988 (NB: PDF file, parent page is here). That was back in the day when ARM was pitched as a high-performance workstation chip rather than a low-power option.

Seriously, though, the windows back-catalogue might not run on ARM, but the .NET framework is MS's preferred platform for new apps, and that is VM-based and supposed to be CPU independent, is it not?

I don't even want to know what ix86 emulation on ARM is like...

Well, it was ok for light use in 1988 (NB: PDF file, parent page is here). That was back in the day when ARM was pitched as a high-performance workstation chip rather than a low-power option.

Seriously, though, the windows back-catalogue might not run on ARM, but the .NET framework is MS's preferred platform for new apps, and that is VM-based and supposed to be CPU independent, is it not?

Yeah, but even your average phone is more powerful than your average PC was in 1982...

Actually, when the ARM appeared in 1987 it wasn't touted as a low-power chip, but was developed by Acorn as part of a desktop workstation chipset that could easily show the x86s of the day a clean pair of heels. One of the first products was actually an accelerator card for the PC.

(Sorry about the PDF links: the parent site is http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/)

The Archimedes/Risc-PC "workstations" stayed in production to the late 90s (and there have been Amiga-style holdout products until very recently) and were always decently fast - but they couldn't compete with the Wintel dupooly and started to lose out when FPUs and, later, accelerated graphics cards became the norm on PCs. By this time, ARM had been spun off and had (wisely) started to concentrate on embedded systems which (at the time) didn't need such things.

Yeah, but even your average phone is more powerful than your average PC was in 1982...

Actually, when the ARM appeared in 1987 it wasn't touted as a low-power chip, but was developed by Acorn as part of a desktop workstation chipset that could easily show the x86s of the day a clean pair of heels. One of the first products was actually an accelerator card for the PC.

(Sorry about the PDF links: the parent site is http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/)

The Archimedes/Risc-PC "workstations" stayed in production to the late 90s (and there have been Amiga-style holdout products until very recently) and were always decently fast - but they couldn't compete with the Wintel dupooly and started to lose out when FPUs and, later, accelerated graphics cards became the norm on PCs. By this time, ARM had been spun off and had (wisely) started to concentrate on embedded systems which (at the time) didn't need such things.

Yeah, but even your average phone is more powerful than your average PC was in 1982...

Actually, when the ARM appeared in 1987 it wasn't touted as a low-power chip, but was developed by Acorn as part of a desktop workstation chipset that could easily show the x86s of the day a clean pair of heels. One of the first products was actually an accelerator card for the PC.

(Sorry about the PDF links: the parent site is http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/)

The Archimedes/Risc-PC "workstations" stayed in production to the late 90s (and there have been Amiga-style holdout products until very recently) and were always decently fast - but they couldn't compete with the Wintel dupooly and started to lose out when FPUs and, later, accelerated graphics cards became the norm on PCs. By this time, ARM had been spun off and had (wisely) started to concentrate on embedded systems which (at the time) didn't need such things.

Heh, this got me thinking, there was already an ARM Laptop in 1992:

http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Pics/A4A1.jpg

and the post I referred to above was something like this one:

http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1122971&cid=26803605

but I'm sure it was comp.sys.os...

Don't try and compare MHz between a CISC x86 and a RISC ARM processor. The latter will blow the former out of the water per clock cycle.

Actually I remember having a 8MHz ARM computer with 2MB of RAM called the A3000. It ran a full windowing system, had FMV, as many browser windows open as you wanted, Java, IRC, etc. Ran Artworks, the precursor to Xara Xtreme. Fantastic PC.

Phillip.

Like one of these?

http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?s t=1&c=31
http://www.tribbeck.com/computers/stork/
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/NC.html#NewsPAD
http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000090050610/

Any of these could use solid state storage, and the OS is always in ROM. The last machine in that list was designed with flash storage in mind.

I had the opportunity to hold and use a NewsPad in 1996 at a computer show, and it was well ahead of its time. TFT touchscreen, camera, voice recognition, and all in a small package the size of current day "tablet PCs". Running off an ARM, too!