Second Netbook Wave Begins

nerdyH writes "Asus is taking pre-orders for a netbook based on Intel's second-generation platform, the secret-shrouded N280/GN40 chipset. Early product specs confirm that the second wave of netbooks are likely to offer faster graphics and lower power use, along with room for much, much larger batteries. The N280 apparently integrates the northbridge and CPU, meaning that the GPU moves to 45nm process technology, the FSB gets replaced by an on-chip interconnect, and overall board real-estate drops to a third of what it was previously — hence the ability to stuff an 8,700mAh battery into a 3-lb. device. The right shift key is slightly bigger, too, though still no trackpoint pointer (guess I'll keep waiting)."

Comments

No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll wait for the Apple idea of a NetBook. It will change everything.

Re:No thanks.

[MrEricSir]

Will it change diapers?

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it will be the first netbook with a wheel instead of a keyboard.

Re:No thanks.

[Davemania]

Yeah over priced netbook.

Re:No thanks.

[macraig]

If you're old enough to ask that question and be dreaming of netbooks, I think you can change your own damned diapers, young man!

Re:No thanks.

[bcrowell]

Seriously. Asus kept promising low price, but what they kept delivering was higher performance. The article says, According to Asus, the PC 1000HE will be available "soon" for approximately $400. Following the pattern they've always followed, that means it will actually sell for $800. What would have been really revolutionary would have been a $100 laptop -- but OLPC screwed up, and Asus decided to head up instead of down. If Asus had actually followed through on their original plans to deliver these things at low prices, we'd be seeing the imminent death of Microsoft. As it is, there may be some downward price pressure on Windows, but not enough to make MS surrender a whole sector of the market and allow Linux to move beyond the 1% share of the desktop where it's been stagnating for years now.

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

But mostly it will change the price.

Re:No thanks.

[cheesybagel]

One more die shrink and less batteries would lower the price considerably, I am sure. That could take less than a year.

Re:No thanks.

[LUH 3418]

You probably mean gender identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity).

Re:No thanks.

[jmorris42]

> Following the pattern they've always followed, that means it will actually sell for $800.

Nope, it is already showing up for preorder at or below the MSRP.

> If Asus had actually followed through on their original plans to deliver
> these things at low prices, we'd be seeing the imminent death of Microsoft.

Don't look to ASUS for that. The origional EEE was a joint venture with Intel and seeing as they are introducing the first product with this new chip they are still bound to em. To really cut the price is going to require ARM based products.

Which means the low end is going to be left to others. Coby was showing product at CES with $139 MSRP but it is believed to be the older MIPS stuff. Be patient, if somebody can get a product designed that doesn't suck, built in quantity and fight the fierce resistance Intel and Microsoft will throw up to block the normal retail channels.... Xmas '09 will redefine what people think of a laptop/netbook. Just don't look for it in Best Buy.

Re:No thanks.

[linhares]

I'll wait for the Apple idea of a NetBook. It will change everything.

Yeah... so if 15million of these have been sold, let's say Apple could have sold at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the market @ $600? That's roughly $2.5Billion.

Glad we're not in a recession, right, my dear Apple benefactors?

Re:No thanks.

[novakyu]

It will be the diapers.

Re:No thanks.

[hairyfeet]

What happened to those ultra cheap ARM laptops we were hearing about awhile back, that is what I want to know. While I agree that a $150-$200 x86 laptop would be the hot product, especially in this economy, I just don't see that happening without some competition. After all, both the major laptop manufacturers and Intel would probably like the Netbook market to either die or become like what ASUS is pushing, which is just full priced crappy little laptops.

But seeing as how most of the folks using a Netbook are mainly using it as a "browser in a box" and with an ARM CPU you should be able to get great battery life with decent performance the ARM based Netbooks could take a chunk of the market, especially if they hit the under $150 price point. After all there are already ARM based distros ready to go, there are programs that will let you edit a doc on a ARM based machines, and as long as the browser lets you surf the web and check your webmail most folks I know would be happy little campers. And the ARM processors out there can be had VERY cheaply, and with the scale of making a product like a Netbook the price will only go down. The screens are getting cheaper by the day, ditto for SSD storage, and Linux means no MSFT tax.

So what happened? Where the hell are they? If they get them out in the $125-175 range I would have NO problem selling them to the local college kids as a "browser in a box" which they could throw in their backpack and check their email and IM with. But I haven't heard diddly squat past the original announcements. Being an underdog and not already having established laptops to compete against in house(unlike ASUS) they would have reason to go low on price to capture market share. And in this economy cheap price beats just about anything. So where in the hell are they?

Re:No thanks.

[Kral_Blbec]

Well, pre-orders are already up on amazon, so id imagine the 400 price point is going to stick.

Re:No thanks.

[rwa2]

Well, so I rushed out and bought an Eee901 for my wife for about $550. I'd say it's about the "sweet spot" for their netbook line. They're about the same size as the 7" models but make better use of the screen real estate, yet smaller than the 10" models, which seem a tad too big and don't offer any extra screen resolution for it.

Anyway, you all remember what fanfare that piece was released with. But a few months later they quietly started selling the stripped-down version of the Eee901 (with 512MB of RAM instead of 1GB and 4GB of SSD instead of 16-20GB) for only $300 at places like Target and Walmart, even in the Linux flavors to boot. And it's ridiculously easy cheap and easy to upgrade the RAM (up to 2GB if you replace the stock OS - I'm liking eeebuntu) and storage (add as a big SD and as many USB drives as you like).

So it seems to me that Asus has a strategy of doing lots of press releases for their high-end models and scalping the rich tech boys to pay off the engineering costs, but then selling the very competitive stripped-down version at the mainstream retail outlets to get volume.

So anyway, keep a lookout for these cheap stripped-down pieces they sell to the "low end market"... I'm already planning my Eeebot army.

Re:No thanks.

[GigaplexNZ]

Some people are old enough to have kids that need their diapers changed, you insensitive clod!

Re:No thanks.

[mjwx]

Ahhh, the RDF is strong in this one.

Yeah... so if 15million of these have been sold, let's say Apple could have sold at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the market @ $600? That's roughly $2.5Billion.

Try 1/20 or 1/25 of that market which at US$700 (its Apple, remember) equals to roughly US$0.5 Billion (US$420 M and US$525 M respectively).

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Having a netbook with a virtually 100% secure OS would be a boon to customers the world over. Apple would make a mint, but it would likely be too expensive to make one out of decent materials for the price range of these machines. Perhaps the white plastic can make a comeback?

Even if they are a couple hundred more than the average netbook, the cost of not worrying about the virus or worm of the day like the Windows/Linux guys have to makes it worth the cash.

Re:No thanks.

[petermgreen]

yet smaller than the 10" models, which seem a tad too big and don't offer any extra screen resolution for it.
This is one of my pet peeves why the hell does noone (that i'm aware of, correct me if i'm wrong) do a 10 inch model with a 1280x800 screen? there is a 9 inch with a 1280x800 screen from HP but that seems to be pushing the pixel size down a little too much plus I want the HDD that 10 inch models generally offer.

Re:No thanks.

[hawkinspeter]

I'm reading/posting this on a HP 2133 mini-note (1280x768) and it ships with a 120GB disk - standard sata 2.5.

Re:No thanks.

[EvilNTUser]

I could still live with the slightly higher price, since many other products, like graphics cards, use perfectly acceptable previous generation products for the low end.

What I don't understand is the push for ever bigger screens and storage. The 900-series could be even smaller, but is optimized for an acceptably large keyboard and display, and that's ok. A 10" hd-based laptop however, is not what I would consider a netbook anymore. The whole point is maximum portability. That means 7-9" screen and a flash drive.

Adding insult to injury, they don't even use the size to support a bigger resolution, and have removed the respected ASUS brand in favor of the childish Eee logo. No thanks.

Re:No thanks.

[badran]

Some people are old enough to need a daiper change themselves.

Re:No thanks.

[pipatron]

Ok this got to be a troll..

Re:No thanks.

[jotok]

I think 10" is still an acceptable size for a netbook. I got the HP Mini 10" and it's pretty portable (fits in a messenger bag), and it's the only keyboard my giant sausage fingers can type on.

Re:No thanks.

[CarpetShark]

I'll wait for the Apple idea of a Netbook

It's called the Macbook Air. Most people can't afford it.

Re:No thanks.

[vikstar]

They've already announced it.

Re:No thanks.

[Teun]

Indeed, for me the 900 series is the maximum size to fit in my bag.
And an SSD instead of a mechanical drive is an absolute must when it's basically hand held.
Although an ARM processor might be right for most there are some of us that like these little critters to run some x86 diagnostics software for 'in the field' work.

Re:No thanks.

[hattig]

I have the HP 2133, and I'd describe as a $2000 2006 subnotebook rather than a $400 2008 netbook, at netbook prices (I paid £200, and a few hours setting up Ubuntu and compiz).

I.e., the CPU is slow, but on the upside compiz makes it feel fast.
On the downside, in Firefox the Slashdot front page has Javascript that makes the browser hang temporarily (as in the window turns dead-app grey). Slashdot is the only site that does this.

However the build quality is top notch, the screen is great, the keyboard is the best netbook keyboard available, it even has an ExpressCard slot.

When HP release a 2160 based upon the N280 chip, then I think you will have a perfect netbook. HP have managed to squeeze a 10" display into the same sized case as the current 8.9" as well, and they're promising a 1366x768 16:9 display for that.

Re:No thanks.

[TheDarkMaster]

Is simple: They need to run Vista bloat and Java, this need lots of CPU power :)

Re:No thanks.

[ubrgeek]

It's funny you mention that (even in a jocular way) - I was honestly wondering if/when Apple might start using these. I can't pull up the article so I can't see if it's mentioned in there. Like the PA comic from the other day, their laptops get damn hot and despite sales pitches to the contrary, their battery life ain't great. With it being tough/impossible to get an airplane plug for use in-flight, would be nice to have a longer battery life (same is true for PC laptops, obviously).

Re:No thanks.

[evilandi]

...and some of us are so old that we're back in diapers and need to change them ourselves.

(Reassuringly, Firefox's En-GB spellchecker barfed at "diapers", but sadly didn't suggest "nappies". Jolly good show.)

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

But will it run Crysis ?

Re:No thanks.

[N1AK]

If Asus had actually followed through on their original plans to deliver these things at low prices, we'd be seeing the imminent death of Microsoft.

I think this is to over-state the size of the Netbook market. Yes, the sub $200 market was one of the first consumer PC products where Windows wasn't the only option anyone sold (effectively) but from what I have seen Windows variants still ruled for market share and MS had discounted Windows by that much that I think it probably wasn't anymore cost effective for manufacturers to produce Linux versions.

I'd love to see Asus bring out a laptop that was effectively the original EeePC brought up to date. I'd buy one straight away, but I don't think I'm the typical consumer and I can see why they are going for a higher priced market.

Even at $400 I don't think this is an automatic win for Microsoft. Competition in the Netbook market is heavy and if Microsoft is willing to maintain a heavy discount in a fast growing market then it will begin to eat into their profit margin, and they will still have to offer a product that beats the 'free' alternatives (in vendor's opinions). Also, how many people are going to buy a $400 laptop and then buy a copy of MS office at its current price? Even vendors that ship with Windows would be likely to ship with OpenOffice or some other alternative and if they do it starts to break Microsoft's dominance of a market that provides most of the profit.

Re:No thanks.

[Czmyt]

I couldn't agree more about the desire for slightly higher resolution. Maybe when Windows 7 comes out, because the screen resolution limit is based on Microsoft not allowing companies to sell Windows XP directly on larger screen machines, correct? Sony went way too far with the resolution on their new P series notebook. And I wish they would make different sized batteries that can fit the same notebook so that I could have a small one for home use and a bigger one for mobile use.

Re:No thanks.

[Elektroschock]

Asus low price, Apple high price. Ehmm, which company manufactures the Apple products for Apple. Only idiots buy products because they cost more.

Asus didn't took Linux but Xandros. Now they are finding out that this wasn't really the best choice. With speed optimiziation and alternative Desktop Environments as LXDE you can create real pressure on XP. Win7 won't be there before 2010 says Microsoft. So expect it to be launched Q1 2011.

Re:No thanks.

[JoeMerchant]

OLPC identified the western market price point as somewhere north of $300 - thus the B1G1 program... Any company would be foolish to sell product for less than the market will bear. Maybe if the recession continues for 10 more years we'll get netbooks down to the price of 20 McDonalds' meal-deals, but for now most people are willing to pay more to get a "real" machine rather than less for a "toy."

Re:No thanks.

[JoeMerchant]

I concur with the screen resolution observation - I don't really care if the screen is 7", 9", or 15" - what I really want is a full 1920x1080 resolution on it - I can always move it closer to my face if it's too small to see.

Re:No thanks.

[mopower70]

Hardly. I have the 1000HD and picked it up for $300. More precisely, I picked it up for $340 because I paid extra for Windows on it. The whole concept of the "netbook" is a smaller, lightweight, more portable version of what you're already using. Why would I switch to an operating system where all of my applications would be incompatible? Far from causing the imminent death of Microsoft, what I've found is just how well Windows is capable of performing when you don't have the misguided luxury of installing every crap application you come across on it. I've had my 1000HD for four months now, I'm on it long enough to run the battery out nearly every day, and using Windows hibernate, I haven't had to reboot once.

Re:No thanks.

[edremy]

It's called the Macbook Air. Most people don't want it.

Fixed that for you. They aren't in the same market segment- they aren't even in the same market. The eee is a cheap, durable, ultraportable minimal machine that does simple tasks. The Air is a large, fragile, very expensive machine that wants people to ooh and ahh. I have access to both at work- a first gen eee701 and a high end Macbook Air. I carry the 701- it's far smaller, less obtrusive and if I drop it I don't feel bad since it will probably survive. Even if it didn't I could buy 4-5 more for the price of that Air. (Plus I've gotten far more "Wow, that's really neat" responses from people looking at the eee as opposed to the Air.)

Oh, and the 701 is more expandable. The single USB port on the Air is a crippling flaw, and the lack of wired Ethernet is a major problem. I don't want to have to carry a stock of dongles around just to get my $2k executive toy to actually do work- the eee has multiple USB ports, wired Ethernet and a real VGA port. (Ok, the resolution sucks, but it does work)

Apple needs to get on the freaking bandwagon here- with the economy going the way that it is netbooks are about the only growth segment left. They've done amazing things with small devices in the past (iPod, iPhone)- I'd *love* to see an Apple netbook.

Re:No thanks.

[ghostlibrary]

> Xmas '09 will redefine what people think of a laptop/netbook. Just don't look for it in Best Buy.

I just bought my EEE900A netbook from Best Buy last month, $199. It rocks. Selling cheap stuff is what Best Buy does best, so I hope the redefined netbooks end up there :)

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but some people think it will cause a lot of diapers to need changing.

Re:No thanks.

[petermgreen]

Thanks for the warnings about the crappy processor in the HP 2133.

When HP release a 2160 based upon the N280 chip, then I think you will have a perfect netbook. HP have managed to squeeze a 10" display into the same sized case as the current 8.9" as well, and they're promising a 1366x768 16:9 display for that.
Do you have a link with more information on that? (specs, when it's likely to be released etc) It does indeed sound like my ideal netbook.

A 10 inch display and a hard drive in a machine the size of an EEE 900 is pretty damn impressive (I don't remember the EEE 900 having much border round the screen as it is).

Re:No thanks.

[King_TJ]

Personally? I think the whole "cheap price beats just about anything" attitude is the problem!

We've already become too much of a disposable society. People keep shopping for the lowest priced version of a product, with an attitude that they'll just "throw it away when it breaks, after a year". (Think, for example, inkjet printers. The ink costs more than the printer does after maybe 1 set of replacement cartridges is purchased?)

A "browser in a box" type of portable for $125-175? Bleah... no thanks. It further encourages wastefulness. People THINK they'd like one for school or what-not, but in reality, it'll wind up falling short when they come up with other things they'd like to do with it. It winds up being extra clutter, because they'll get another "full-blown" computer and hang onto it too.

Re:No thanks.

[cp.tar]

I don't think diapers are for barfing. Did you submit a bug report?

Re:No thanks.

[hattig]

You should find all the information you need at http://www.hp2133guide.com/

The 1366x768 display on the 2140 (1.6GHz Atom + 945 version of the 2133) option will be available in March apparently.

The 2150 looks like it will be a little bigger.

The 2160 is a product of my fevered imagination, essentially an upgraded 2140 once the N280 is out.

Watch out for the newer budget models with the lower resolution displays.

Re:No thanks.

[Wdomburg]

The HP 2140 offers a 10.1" 720p (1366x768) as will the upcoming Dell Mini 10 (unless early reports are wrong).

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

The current generation flash drives on the Asus EEE computers are lousy - way too slow relative to the rest of the platform.

Re:No thanks.

[Latinhypercube]

Yes. It will be the first netbook to cost more than a laptop.

Re:No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a $200 linux model (ASUS EEE PC 900A) at Best Buy. Biggest drawback is the small, slow SSD.

Re:No thanks.

[JohnnyBGod]

I really think 10" is the sweet spot. The keyboard becomes uncomfortable to use, below that.

Re:No thanks.

[petermgreen]

The HP 2140 offers a 10.1" 720p (1366x768)
According to wikipedia it will offer one but doesn't yet. HP's website apears to confirm this.

Re:No thanks.

[DSW-128]

True, but I've changed some of my kids' diapers that made me want to barf.

Re:No thanks.

[orkysoft]

Three words: Acer Aspire One.

Re:No thanks.

[Miamicanes]

> What happened to those ultra cheap ARM laptops we were hearing about awhile back, that is what I want to know

Consumers and manufacturers figured out that 7" screens aren't fun to look at, and a sub-GHz ARM won't do streaming video unless you add a coprocessor that bumps the cost up to what you'd spend on an Atom, anyway.

In the US, at least, the Netbook market seems to have found its happy niche for the next year or two: notebooks with 10" screens (small enough to save some cash, but big enough to use comfortably), long battery life (5-6 hours with minimal power management), and more or less the bulk and heft of the original Compaq Contura Aero from the early 90s... the width and depth of an ultraportable, but an inch thick instead of 1/4" thick, and ~3-4 lbs weight. Small enough to comfortably use on an airplane, light enough to fade into the background noise of your consciousness, and cheap enough ($400-500) to skim off the buyers who'd have otherwise bought the loss-leader notebook of the week at Best Buy or OfficeMax.

Part of the reason for the "Aero" metaphor is because I *had* one back in college, and had a major love-hate relationship with it. I loved the fact that it was (for its day) relatively small and light, had great battery life, and could be used just about anywhere with minimal ceremony. HOWEVER... its 7.5" screen was too small, period, and was what ultimately forced me to ditch it for a DEC HiNote Ultra CT475. I always wished someone would make a relatively affordable notebook with a similar form factor to the Aero, but a bigger screen (the Aero had a HUGE bezel) and modern cpu/memory/storage specs. The day arrived about a year ago, and I have a MSI U100 (expanded to 2 gigs) that runs Vista Ultimate like a champ, handles Netbeans, Office 2007, and Visual Studio 2k8 with minimal drama, and plays 720p and 1080i MPEG-2/h.264 video like a champ.

My only complaint? The keyboard. Specifically, the fact that MSI decided to mash the cursor-Tee into the lower-right corner of a straight rectangle to save a few cents instead of letting the cursor keys dangle on a peninsula below the main part of the keyboard, and did it by making the ,./ keys 2/3 the size of the others. The keyboard is already on the "tight" side, and those three keys endlessly drive me crazy. It's the only reason why I DON'T enthusiastically recommend it to others. If they ditch the mashed keyboard on a future model and keep everything else more or less the same, I'll give it 9/10 as a travel computer.

Speaking of uses... lately, I've discovered that it actually makes a shockingly decent -- if unconventional -- ebook reader for Manning/O'Reilly-sized pdf books if you turn it sideways (so the screen is portrait on the right, and the keyboard is on the left) like an open hardcover book (hinge = book spine). 1024 x 600 is *just* big enough to do a decent job of rendering the page if you run acrobat reader full-screen. It's a shame there aren't a few buttons flanking the webcam that can be read as if they were keys on the keyboard... I could definitely think of some good ways to put them to use for an ebook reader :-)

Re:No thanks.

[davecb]

It's fairly hard to get good margins if you consistently spend your moores-law dollars on lowering the price. So businesses do that only when spending on performance stops working.

--dave

Re:No thanks.

[dudpixel]

Yeah I'm still living outside and walking everywhere until Apple finally make the iHouse and iCar. Unfortunately Apple iAir is not yet released either, i feel so guilty for breathing in this inferior product :(

this is slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

You fail to impress with your paltry mAh, watt-hours is what we demand.

Re:this is slashdot

[Malevolyn]

I demand newton meters to confuse the masses!

Re:this is slashdot

[moniker127]

I measure my battery life in MEH - millions of electrons.

Re:this is slashdot

[moniker127]

Thats not an E! Its a trap!

Trackpoint?

[Anonymous Coward]

If IBM doesn't make a trackpoint-based netbook, no one will.

Re:Trackpoint?

[ozmanjusri]

If IBM doesn't make a trackpoint-based netbook, no one will.

IBM doesn't make consumer-level hardware any more.

They sold that part of the business to Lenovo long ago.

Re:Trackpoint?

[gEvil (beta)]

If IBM doesn't make a trackpoint-based netbook, no one will.

Well, there is Sony's overpriced and underpowered Vaio P.

Re:Trackpoint?

[mgblst]

All part of their dastardly plan. IBM saw Desktops and normal laptops failing years ago, the got out while they could still get some decent money. All these years they have been working on the new netbooks, waiting for just the right time to swoop in and take the market. Now is their chance!

Re:Trackpoint?

[wiredlogic]

If IBM doesn't make a trackpoint-based netbook, no one will.

It's already been made. With three button mousiness and a touchscreen too. Look for the Fujitsu P1200 (Crusoe), P1510 and P16?0. These are the first modern netbook format PCs with the P1200 coming out four years ago. Granted, they didn't sell at what is now considered a consumer friendly price but the older units can be had for a steal on eBay.

Re:Trackpoint?

[indi0144]

Will IBM start making laptops and workstations again? Citation needed

For those that missed it... Thevideo

[denzacar]

Apple Wheel

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[LingNoi]

I hate how people on youtube have the tell everyone it's a parody. So fucking annoying and ruins the comments.

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[Anonymous Coward]

Solution: don't read youtube comments, they rot your brain.

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[moniker127]

You say this in a slashdot comment?

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[NoisySplatter]

They have to tell everyone it was a parody because they wanted one so bad that they spent an hour looking for it in the apple store. They're doing other idiots like themselves a favor because everyone who reads their comment will then only have to spend 20 minutes searching for the item before they believe it was fake.

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[vigour]

Solution: don't read youtube comments, they rot your brain.

indeed, or here too

Re:For those that missed it... Thevideo

[zobier]

I guess the mods haven't read any youtube comments lately. Interesting that it breaks /. and Google too.

A bit too heavy IMHO...

[JickL]

1.45 kg is just slightly too much in my opinion. I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less. But that's just me! Also why aren't we seeing huge batteries like these in the cheap 15-inch laptops that would really need them? This pretty much proves that it can't be the cost that's prohibitive.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[denzacar]

1.45 kg is just slightly too much in my opinion. I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less.

Yeah... cause lugging around the extra weight equivalent of couple of Mars bars is more than anyone should be forced to endure.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[MichaelSmith]

1.45 kg is just slightly too much in my opinion. I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less.

Yeah... cause lugging around the extra weight equivalent of couple of Mars bars is more than anyone should be forced to endure.

It all adds up. I can take my 701 to work on my bike. Carrying a load momentum is the real problem, not weight. For me the 701 belongs with my multimeter and GPS. Its an instrument, just not as specialised as the others.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[szap]

0.9 kg vs 1.45 kg. I don't know how many Mars bars that is, but that's over 60% increase in weight.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

You, your bike and your 701 probably have a mass of about 100kg. You really think you would notice the increased inertia and momentum at 100.5kg?

The weight on your shoulders if you use a rucksack maybe (use a pannier instead), but not the momentum.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, they do. The Hp Elitebook 6930P advertises 24 hours of battery life with the extended battery.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone else read that as "nutsack"?

I think i'd notice an extra 1/2 kilo hanging off my balls!

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[denzacar]

I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less.

And 1.3 kg vs. 1.45 kg is about 2-3 Mars bars, depending on which Mars bar we are talking about.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[diamondsw]

It's all a matter of perception, and once you get down to these weights, yes, you notice a couple ounces. One of them is 50% heavier than the other, does that help?

Of course, you might not notice it if you're toting the standard 8lb budget brick laptop that most Windows users seem to have.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[amRadioHed]

Not .9kg, he said 1.45kg is too much and 1.3kg is ok. That's a difference of 150g which is three 50g mars bars or about than two and a half of the 58g size.

Yes, there are probably more important things to be discussing right now.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[beav007]

1.45 kg is just slightly too much in my opinion. I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less. But that's just me! Also why aren't we seeing huge batteries like these in the cheap 15-inch laptops that would really need them? This pretty much proves that it can't be the cost that's prohibitive.

Yes, I see your point. Lets try to simplify </3rd Rock>

<JickL> Your netbook is too heavy. Also, can I have a bigger (heavier) battery?

Or did I miss something?

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference between 0.9kg and 1.45kg is about nine and a half Mars bars.

I don't know about you, but I don't tend to carry a bag full of chocolates bars everywhere I go..

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Firehed]

Yes, there are probably more important things to be discussing right now.

Why yes- a measurement in either Snickers or Reese's Cups would be greatly appreciated.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Arthur Grumbine]

Good job with the math. Now for some perspective:
Average adult male should be able to comfortably carry at least 15kg on their person while riding a bike (much more if just walking).
The extra 0.5kg for the larger screen, better performance, and close to double the battery life costs them about 3.3% of their load capacity. Less than an extra can of Rockstar would.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[lukas.mach]

Go to a nearest shop and try to life the 9" eee and the 10" eee. It's a difference. I have a 1.45kg tablet and when it comes to its weight it's really only borderline usable. The 9" eee on the other hand has the perfect weight - light enough, yet not so light to be shaking when you're reading an e-book on bus.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[lukas.mach]

s/life/lift/

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[kimvette]

I'm lost unless the unit of measurement is either Libraries of Congress or Volkswagons.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Hal_Porter]

"This one time, at Gitmo..."

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Hal_Porter]

If netbooks continue to grow like this, in a mere ten generations they will weigh 158Kg. Clearly the government should intervene and legislate a maximum weight of 100kg.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Kankraka]

You must be a wuss, in highschool I biked a half hour to school, then up to my after school job, and then 45 minutes back home after my shift. I had my work uniform, school texts, binders loaded with paper, and a wallstreet G3. One of the heaviest laptops I've owned. That's an hour and a half daily on a bike with that load, and I never once had a problem. Tightened the straps and hauled ass.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Sir_Lewk]

And he did it uphill both way! Get off his lawn!

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

These come standard with windows xp if I'm not mistaken...

I may also be thinking of the 500 other people who have released crappy underpowered notebooks... errr netbooks...

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[hailukah]

0.001726 VW Beetles (1967 model year) vs 0.001071 1967 VW Beetles

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[plasmacutter]

1.45 kg is just slightly too much in my opinion. I love my 701 weighing in at just over 900 grams, I'd prefer a model weighing 1.3 kg or less.

Yeah... cause lugging around the extra weight equivalent of couple of Mars bars is more than anyone should be forced to endure.

at that weight you might as well buy a fully fledged laptop with some real power. Netbooks are experiencing "power-creep" right back into the laptop fold.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[MichaelSmith]

You must be a wuss, in highschool I biked a half hour to school, then up to my after school job, and then 45 minutes back home after my shift. I had my work uniform, school texts, binders loaded with paper, and a wallstreet G3. One of the heaviest laptops I've owned. That's an hour and a half daily on a bike with that load, and I never once had a problem. Tightened the straps and hauled ass.

Maybe I am a wuss but I haven't been in high school for 25 years. At my age wear and tear from vibration and dynamic loads becomes and issue. I have a back problem and I can't carry just anything.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Kral_Blbec]

Im going to have to agree. I am looking to sell my 900 and get this new guy, but I would much rather get a 9 inch version again rather than the 10 inch version. I think the 900 is the perfect size.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[jon3k]

If you seriously can't bear the extra half a kilo when carrying it on your bike, you seriously need to get to the gym.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[popo]

mod parent up.

The 3.2 lbs of the 1000 series might seem light, but compared to the 2.18 lbs of the 900 series, it's a beast. The 900 was perfect. They should keep going in that direction...

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I agree. At 1.45kg, it's heavier than a Macbook Air, but without the benefit of a large screen and keyboard. Yeah battery life is much better, but are there that many people who want to spend 9.5 hours in front of a small netbook?

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[jaxtherat]

Pounds? Leagues? Quarts? African Swallows?

Good grief man, this is 2009 use the Metric system!

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[FlyingBishop]

I really don't give a shit about weight. All I want is a browser, a real, full-sized keyboard, (none of that function nonsense) and a reasonably sized display. Also a bash shell, but that goes without saying. I want this for around $200, and I want it to last me at least 3 years. I don't need power, I don't need it to be lightweight, I don't even need it to work for more than an hour without a cord. These things are nice, but I'm just looking for something that's reliable, ergonomic, and cheap.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[GigaplexNZ]

And abandon the European Swallows?!? I think not!

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[rantingkitten]

If you can't handle a couple of extra pounds of gear on your bike, or on foot, maybe your choice of laptop isn't your biggest problem right now.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[xtracto]

And 1.3 kg vs. 1.45 kg is about 2-3 Mars bars, depending on which Mars bar we are talking about. [wikipedia.org]

How much would that be in Library of Congress? or is it an incompatible unit?

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[MichaelSmith]

If you can't handle a couple of extra pounds of gear on your bike, or on foot, maybe your choice of laptop isn't your biggest problem right now.

Thats right. Cycle commuting on every working day, 10km each way is a marginal prospect for me because of the maintenance I have to do. I mean maintenance on both my body and the vehicle. About six months my back problem came back and I dealt with it by carrying less and shifting loads differently when I went across speed humps, etc. Then my knees developed problems and I had to change frame geometry. And so on.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[gd2shoe]

Dang! I can't remember my conversion ratios. The real question: does it include the weight of the building? *ducks*

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

But the point of the Eee was to be small and light. Now they're just underpowered crappy laptops, you may as well get a proper one.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[denzacar]

or is it an incompatible unit?

Of course it is incompatible silly... You can't eat a library.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[pipatron]

Or did I miss something?

Yeah, make that:

<JickL> Your netbook is too heavy, and your laptops have too small batteries. Everything you do sucks.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[JickL]

I really don't give a shit about weight. All I want is a browser, a real, full-sized keyboard, (none of that function nonsense) and a reasonably sized display. Also a bash shell, but that goes without saying. I want this for around $200, and I want it to last me at least 3 years. I don't need power, I don't need it to be lightweight, I don't even need it to work for more than an hour without a cord. These things are nice, but I'm just looking for something that's reliable, ergonomic, and cheap.

Ok! Now I know what to get you for christmas.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[JickL]

Huh? To clarify; If they can put a huge battery like this in a "cheap" laptop where the primary concerns are (or at least should be) size and weight and where we already have pretty good battery life, why aren't there more cheap but heavy 15-inch notebooks with batteries like these as standard? Usually you won't get more than 2 hours of effective battery life from those, in my experience.

The extra weight of the battery wouldn't make as much difference on a larger machine.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[grumbel]

The weight doesn't matter much when you carry it around in a bag, but it matters quite a lot when you want to hold it in your hand for longer periods of time (i.e. read a book on it) and 1.5kg is pretty much the upper end for that use and any gram less would be more then welcome.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[JoeMerchant]

Zero - Zero - Zero, that's the DARPA mantra, zero weight, zero size, zero power consumption. Anything more is missing the ideal. I carry a "real" Motorola flip phone from 2 years ago, it's acceptable, but feels like a monster compared to the RAZR, and the RAZR is still a monster compared to a bluetooth headset - why don't we have all of our functionality in a 2 gram OLED flex screen and earpiece yet?

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[drb_chimaera]

Weight is also not the only factor - I have a EeePC 1000 that I specifically picked over the 901 for a very simple reason - the extra size allows a keyboard that I (as a fairly stocky 6'5 man) can actually use, whereas the one on the 901's is just too small and is an exercise in frustration for me.

Having extensive first hand experience of both models (I know folks with both and borrowed each for a week to have a play before buying one) I can confirm the weight difference is very noticable, but for me the trade-off was worth it. Of course I ended up with 40gig of storage instead of the 20 on the 901, but that was a fringe benefit and not a significant factor in my decision.

Also a factor in the perception of a carrying weight is how you're carrying it, and what else you are carrying - for example in 'normal' use the machine is slung in a satchel with my phone, MP3 player and a few other bits and bobs that I use every day - I can notice the difference in weight then between the two models, although for me at least it has no noticable impact. Conversely I've also stuffed the machine into a rucksack of clothes when travelling with work for a week, and under those circumstances an extra half kilo of weight is entirely unnoticable.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Taibhsear]

The keyboard and screen are also the reason I got the 1000 over the 901. I got the linux version over the windows though. Partly because I have no interest in playing games on my netbook (no mouse), partly because the solid state drive is lighter, smaller, and less likely to break than the spindle drive, and partly because it was lighter (granted only ~120g but still lighter). Taking it to work/class is easier/lighter than carrying a textbook. And it is still small enough that if I don't use the pouch thing I can actually fit it in the pocket of my trench coat.

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[drb_chimaera]

Likewise, I went with the Linux SSD one, although I really didn't get on with Xandros while trailing my friends machines, so within five minutes of opening the box was happily bodging Ubuntu onto it :)

Of course the only reason it took five minutes to get Ubunut going was that the absolute first thing I did was get the back off to replace the RAM and WLAN card...

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[slapys]

But can we please have the damn measurement in libraries of Congress already. Sometimes I just don't understand slashdot anymore

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[Anonymous Coward]

is that dry weight or with a full tank of gas?

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[terrapin44]

The Metric System is for vureaucrats and is made to keep the ordinary people down: http://www.helium.com/items/1219927-why-wont-america-adopt-the-metric-system

Re:A bit too heavy IMHO...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Seconded. Also, why doesn't Sun take a page out of Transmeta's book? I'd love SPARC lappy like the one described, with a x86-to-SPARC cross-sompiler running on the GPU when firing up apps, Java-style.

Hmmm, anybody at LLVM reading this? Care to make a OpenCL port? Maybe a x86 decompiler togo with it? *begs*

Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[lobiusmoop]

It's always been kind-of annoying knowing that in a lot of netbooks, the super-efficient 2W Atom processor was paired with a clunky old 6W 945 chipset. Such a waste of battery life.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[Aranykai]

Ive been pretty impressed with the life Ive gotten out of my Eee 900a with the 1.6GHz Atom so far, but this new spec should blow improve that considerably. With nearly double the battery capacity(of my 900a), this thing should get 6 hours of actual use fairly easily.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive been pretty impressed with the life Ive gotten out of my Eee 900a

You should get the keyboard replaced before the warranty expires.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[Korin43]

I don't see why they don't take a motherboard like this and stick it in a normal sized laptop case (14.3"), with a massive battery. It's a laptop. I don't need super fastness, I just need a full sized keyboard, a wireless card and a battery.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[Narishma]

I easily get 6 or 7 hours out of my NC10 while working normally with wifi enabled and the screen brightness at half. If I disable wifi and lower the brightness a little more I can get up to 8 hours.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still waiting for them to just take the darn optical drive out of a laptop that has a decent sized screen, a trackpad, and isn't three times as expensive.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[rsilvergun]

Because then sub $400 notebooks would compete with the $600+ ones.
Heck, Apple's seen a 7% drop in market share and the blame's solely on netbooks.

Re:Glad the Northbridge is Integrated

[laejoh]

Well, I have a 901, with debian on it. It gets 6 hours on a fuly charged battery, uphill, both ways :)

Tag

[hax0r_this]

Someone should tag this "clitmouse".

Just saying.

Re:Tag

[Chabo]

Obligatory link:

http://xkcd.com/243/

Re:Tag

[Janek Kozicki]

But it has a touchpad.

Re:Tag

[renegadesx]

TouchClit? That name will change the face of IT marketing forever!

Re:Tag

[rwa2]

I still think the "joynipple" has a nicer ring to it, and more accurately represents the mechanics and feel of how it actually works.

What I want to know is

[fireman sam]

Who decided to use touch pads in these netbooks. Why not go with the more controllable clit mouse. Much more pleasurable to use - for both the user and the computer. I refuse to purchase a new laptop/netbook unless it has the clit mouse. Also, the touch pad wastes too much realestate.

Re:What I want to know is

[Microlith]

Much more pleasurable to use - for both the user and the computer.

I wasn't aware that human-computer interaction technology had progressed so far...

Re:What I want to know is

[Nimey]

Do you manipulate your clit mouse with your tongue?

Re:What I want to know is

[denzacar]

Why not go with the more controllable clit mouse. Much more pleasurable to use - for both the user and the computer.

Newsflash.
The naked lady on your notebook's desktop background? Not real - just a picture.
Also - clit mouse? Not real clitoris.
Neither your computer nor the woman in the photo feel anything when you fondle it.

It is just you... being perverted in a very sad way at your place of occupation.

Re:What I want to know is

[workman161]

You've got a perfect signature there, too. "This comment is ribbed for your pleasure".

Re:What I want to know is

[wjh31]

because most people wouldnt be able to find it

Re:What I want to know is

[imsabbel]

And i would refuse one without a touchpad.

Face it, people like different things.
I dont like touchpads, but those stupid mouseclits are unusable.

Re:What I want to know is

[workman161]

Depends on which pointer you've used. I've tried the ones on dell laptops, and it takes about a half second to register any movement.

However, the ones on my thinkpads and my compaq armada (from '98) work like a dream. Just about everyone I know who had your same idea that a trackpoint is unusable used one of my thinkpads for about 10 minutes and suddenly hated touchpads. They thought it a marvel that they're so rare. Try playing a FPS with a trackpoint instead of a touchpad.

The least they could do is give us an option.

Re:What I want to know is

[couchslug]

"I refuse to purchase a new laptop/netbook unless it has the clit mouse."

One benefit:
If the clit mouse cover turns brown and greasy or wears off, you can easily rip it out and replace it.

Re:What I want to know is

[bill_mcgonigle]

Just about everyone I know who had your same idea that a trackpoint is unusable used one of my thinkpads for about 10 minutes and suddenly hated touchpads.

I hate the ones on the thinkpads too... so far my favorite is the Powerbook trackball, but use a trackpad for want of that.

Try playing a FPS with a trackpoint instead of a touchpad.

Ah, not one of my use cases.

The least they could do is give us an option.

Yeah, but why assume they skipped the market research? Granted, there could be biases at both Lenovo and netbook manufacturers, especially given the length of the choice is longer than most folks' standard employment term. Prepare for egg-opening wars!

Re:What I want to know is

[larry bagina]

I tried that with your mom, but she freaked out

Re:What I want to know is

[Anonymous Coward]

Ugh, I can't stand those damn things. Yes, they're small - that's about it. Otherwise they hurt your fingers after a while, and you can't add scrolling, gestures, or any other functionality to them.

Re:What I want to know is

[jmorris42]

> I refuse to purchase a new laptop/netbook unless it has the clit mouse.

Well Sony has one..... Along with some other neat features. But it also ships with Vista and starts at about $1000 which is pretty much out of the netbook catagory.

> Also, the touch pad wastes too much realestate.

Duh! Which is why I'm shocked that precisely zero netbooks makers have managed to figure out something so blindingly obvious. Take the Sony form factor, scale it up just a bit to cut price a little and get a little more room for a better keyboard and it would be the perfect netbook. And of course lose Vista. I'd prefer a penguin inside but XP Home and 100% hardware compatibility with Linux out of the box only gets ya a couple of demerits in my book since I probably won't like whatever distro they ship anyway.

Re:What I want to know is

[MightyYar]

I slightly prefer the touch pad, if only because if you are in any kind of a moving vehicle the little nub is very hard to control.

Re:What I want to know is

[guisar]

Yeah- all the netbook manufacturers seem stuck on that paradigm- I vote for getting rid of the speakers and touchpad, putting in a larger keyboard which can "unplug" from the surface of the system and all bluetooth accessories (mouse, keyboard, sound out) and switch to a DVI video out. Touchpads are the biggest change that's needed- they just make the system LESS usable not more.

Re:What I want to know is

[Anonymous Coward]

I... Must... Resist...
That's what she said.

Going back to the topic, I would hate a trackpoint-only netbook. It's true that space is a premium, but I rather have a smaller keyboard and a good trackpad than just a small keyboard.

Re:What I want to know is

[sznupi]

Well, isn't it just great then that ALL of netbooks have touchpads?

What we'd like to have is just one model with clit...ONE. It would be enough...

Re:What I want to know is

[laejoh]

Fuck the clit mouse, I want a PS2 connector on my eee pc so that I can plug in an IBM Model M!

Re:What I want to know is

[snowgirl]

Newsflash.
The naked lady on your notebook's desktop background? Not real - just a picture.
Also - clit mouse? Not real clitoris.
Neither your computer nor the woman in the photo feel anything when you fondle it.

Actually, since I am the girl in the photo on my background, she does feel something when I play with my clit mouse...

Re:What I want to know is

[GCP]

I completely agree. I had to use a ThinkPad once, years ago, as a substitute machine, so I experimented with the TrackPoint pointer. I didn't like it at all, and I wouldn't have bought a ThinkPad for myself, but I like to try new things as long as I'm not forced to continue. It took several days of constant use to get used to it, but after I did, I was hooked. I got my own ThinkPad, cranked the sensitivity and acceleration up to the max values, and trained myself to use it. At first it was like my first time on ice skates, but these days, I can rocket the mouse cursor around the screen and stop right where I want just by wanting it to be there, with my fingers still on the keyboard. At that level of sensitivity, and after a lot of practice, you just think about where you want the mouse pointer to be, and it's there. It's just an imperceptible, unconscious twitch or slight pressure. And with my fingers in the home position on the keys/mouse pointer, my thumbs can reach three mouse buttons by merely bending them at the middle thumb joint. Again, just the tiniest twitches combine keys, mouse pointer, and three mouse buttons.

Now, when I'm forced to use a scratchpad, forced to lift my hands off the keyboard and go scratch like a cat in a litterbox to get the mouse to move--jerk, jerk, jerk, slide into place--I feel like I've put down my Nikon to take a picture with a one-button camera. It's unbelievably primitive in comparison. It's not that I can't scratch on a scratchpad--I did it for years and still do when I have to use someone else's machine. Any nitwit can learn to scratch in a few seconds, but for those of us who use computers seriously enough to put time into learning keyboard shortcuts, command line interfaces, scripting for automation, and multiple button / twitch control hardware, nitwit scratchpads don't cut it.

We need that option on netbooks.

Re:What I want to know is

[reiisi]

It took this thread to make it clear to me what the fascination in that poor substitute for a joystick is.

I can't imagine doing real work with such a pointer device.

I suppose, if you're just running CLI on your GUI, maybe, but why bother?

Now I know.

Re:What I want to know is

[drsmithy]

Try playing a FPS with a trackpoint instead of a touchpad.

It's been a while since I've seen such a good example of "damning with faint praise".

Re:What I want to know is

[indi0144]

what?! click on the third mouse button move the clit down.. OHHH scroll! and sure we need more creative developers but I can't see why you can't make something like the combos of KOF (Fn + -> -> ^ ^). I'd NEVER buy a laptop without a trackpad/clit EVER that one of the reasons that I haven't bought an ultraportable, the tiny and miserable scratch box it's just ridiculous.

Re:What I want to know is

[serialband]

Who decided to use touch pads in these netbooks. Why not go with the more controllable clit mouse. Much more pleasurable to use - for both the user and the computer. I refuse to purchase a new laptop/netbook unless it has the clit mouse. Also, the touch pad wastes too much realestate.

Licensing cost is most likely the reason why it's not used. Touch pads are probably much cheaper to license.

I have used both kinds, and with only a touch pad, I find myself resorting to using a mouse. With the Trackpoint(tm), a mouse is unnecessary for finer control. Mouse controlled games are playable using just the Trackpoint. Touch pads require you to lift your fingers and move them around (repetitively) much more.

Re:What I want to know is

[petermgreen]

BTW model M style keyboards are still produced though the rights have been sold off to a smaller company. Furthermore they now do a USB model!

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html

Re:What I want to know is

[Nimey]

The Model M is bigger in all dimensions than a Dell Mini 9 (I checked), and I'm sure that holds for the other netbooks.

Be pretty funny if someone posted pix of that, though.

Re:What I want to know is

[willy_me]

You should try the new Apple laptops that support "multi-touch" - or whatever they are calling it. Being able to use up to four fingers for different tasks is amazing. They have also increased the size of the trackpad to accommodate multiple finger gestures. I tried one for a while and found that using it was actually superior to using a mouse in many ways. Going back to the small trackpads is just painful.

Now I've also used the IBM pointers and I do like them. They would be especially useful if someone were to make a netbook with an extra wide screen that was essentially the same size as the keyboard. Such a device would have no room for a trackpad. Not that great for general computing but great for movies. It would be for people who primarily wanted an entertainment device that could double as a general purpose computer.

I Wish I Was There to Fight it With You Guys

[Anonymous Coward]

... But I was killed in the first wave :-(

use an eraserhead already!

[macshit]

Seeing how annoying some of the teeny trackpads in netbooks are, why on earth aren't some of them using trackpoint/eraserhead/clit/whatever controllers instead?

I get the impression most manufacturers do not do a whole lot of thinking when designing these things...

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[JickL]

Actually I prefer the trackpad on my EeePC 701 to the one on my MBP. I find it more precise and I prefer the texture of it. Have I lost all credibility now?

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[MichaelSmith]

Actually I prefer the trackpad on my EeePC 701 to the one on my MBP. I find it more precise and I prefer the texture of it. Have I lost all credibility now?

No, I find the 701 track pad perfectly okay. The only problem is that when I run the laptop off a cheap inverter in my car noise gets into the track pad and it is useless.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[sznupi]

OK, so you like touchpad, great. It works for you, and that's all that matters...for you. (as a sidenote, you seem to be in the minority - most people with touchpad-only laptops use mouse if they can; certainly on every desk that I've seen where there's touchpad-only laptop, there's also a mouse; some people even have "travel mouse"; I even witnessed somebody trying to use a mouse on a flat area next to the touchpad, while sitting on a park bench...ridiculous!)

HOWEVER...I, and many other people, really like clit in a trully portable (not luggable) computer, even though I used it only for one day on a Thinkpad of my buddy - at the end of the day I was able to play enjoyably in UT and Diablo2 (granted, I usually play as a necromancer so there's less clicking, but still...). Not doable on a touchpad, and while mouse is best in this case, it's not really portable...

BUT...I can't buy even ONE netbook with clit. One is all we need... :/

If next Lenovo netbook comes with this platform (lower power usage and place for 9-12 cell battery, please?) and also with clit instead of touchpad, I'll be waiting overnight for first shipment. Heck, I will gladly pay 50% more than the typical price of "ordinary" netbook for that, probably even 100% more (though in the latter case it could also have X-series style case (not really needed, netbooks are tough enough thanks to their small size) and keyboard)

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[glwtta]

why on earth aren't some of them using trackpoint/eraserhead/clit/whatever controllers instead?

I'll take the world's worst trackpad over a nipple-mouse any day. For the record, the world's worst trackpad is the one on Acer's Aspire One netbook (still better than the nipple).

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[sznupi]

Most people probably wouldn't even take a closer look at a laptop that's visibly missing a touchpad (nevermind that most of them also use their laptop with a mouse attached...). It's "just the way things are", laptops have touchpads and that's it; so also no point in convincing them to try a clit (which needs a day to get used to, but after that it's fabulous), they won't.

And I guess suits at Lenovo thought that netbook with clit would cannibalise the sales of X-series, which might be true, most people don't need the kind of power that X-series has in their portable computer.

But they forgot that the same lack of need for power means that most people can't justify the price of X-series, so they won't buy it anyway.

I guess if next netbook from Lenovo won't have a clit I'll have to hunt down some old, used X40/41...

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[GigaplexNZ]

most people with touchpad-only laptops use mouse if they can

Wait, your argument revolves around the fact that "proper" mice are better than touchpads, so therefore clit/whatever must be better? I've never seen anyone who prefers the clit over the mouse, so don't try introducing that red herring.

I agree that it would be nice to see at least one netbook with the choice for a clit, but please don't try to use the logical fallacy of the mouse argument to express your opinion.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[Archimonde]

I've got Msi Wind and previous gen macbook (white plastic one). I've never tried the eee one but my wind has better trackpad than macbook. True, the buttons suck, but the trackpad surface itself has much less friction and it is more precise. Even though this one is the syntellic, which is worse than the synaptics one which was installed in first batch of msi winds.

I always thought that macbook pro had to have better trackpad, because it is well, "pro", and pros have to have better trackpad than the one on the standard macbook. Thanks for the info in any case.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[Anonymous Coward]

most people with touchpad-only laptops use mouse if they can; certainly on every desk that I've seen where there's touchpad-only laptop, there's also a mouse

s/touchpad//

Seriously, all laptop integrated pointer devices are inherently crappy, and most people have a mouse on their desk and use one if they can, regardless of if their lappy has a touchpad, clit, or both.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[alpayerturkmen]

Just go ahead and buy a Vaio P for god's sake.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[Anonymous Coward]

At least on my device (a 901), its a multi-touchpad, so it's the equivalent of a 3 button mouse.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[sznupi]

That wasn't much of an argument at all, just a sidenote. Though mouse is indeed better when you have some flat surface, it's not really portable, only luggable (from one flat surface to the next...), so, for me and significant enough number of other people, clit is the best trully portable (integrated in the machine) thing.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[sznupi]

Well...not really.

Granted, it's just what I've seen so by no means representative, but...while ALL desks with touchpad-only laptops had a mouse next to them, there was one small group without it, just a laptop. They had one thing in common - Thinkpads.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[sznupi]

Not really an option I'm afraid (plus I'd have to make sure that its clit/size/form factor/keyboard suits me (there will be a lot of writing on my netbook), but that's doable) - Sony Vaios have ridiculous markups where I live, so Vaio P ended up around four times more expensiove than ordinary netbook, not two times that I mentioned would be OK. Might as well simply get X-series if Vaio P is the "only" choice...

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[Anonymous Coward]

i assume because it's patented technology, and it's too expensive to license it. that said, i completely agree, i wish they had them.

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[cr_nucleus]

Actually I prefer the trackpad on my EeePC 701 to the one on my MBP. I find it more precise and I prefer the texture of it.

Have I lost all credibility now?

Pretty much !

The mac trackpad is about the only usable one in my book.
It's the only one that actually feels right movement wise according u're using osx.
Never been able to understand why its feel cannot be replicated neither with linux nor windows.

And don't get me started on the osx two finger scrolling !!

Re:use an eraserhead already!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because however annoying small trackpads might be, some people still prefer them over clitmice. Like me. If a laptop has a clitmouse, it doesn't matter what else it features, I will not buy it.

Netbooks are the future.

[darkmeridian]

A five-hundred dollar, three pound netbook with a ten inch screen, over five hours of battery life, and an integrated 3G wireless card would make regular laptops obsolete for most consumers. You can check your e-mail and word process, and edit photos. That is what most people need.

I currently have a Dell Mini 9 I bought for $265. It has a four hour battery life and is really snappy with Ubuntu 8.10. I use it to check my e-mail. The only downside is the weak graphics, but the new Intel chipset supposedly processes HD video on board.

I cannot wait to get one of the second gen netbooks.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[X0563511]

That new Intel chip isn't actually made by Intel, and because of it linux support is really bad right now.

Beware - don't expect it to be perfect.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Needs a touch screen.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[joh]

They are great as long as you have a second more powerful machine. A regular laptop *can* fully work as your only machine but a netbook can't in most cases.

I have seen too many netbooks ending up as a rarely used toy... and they're too expensive for that actually. If you're wise go for the cheapest you can find, for checking your email and a bit of surfing they are all good enough.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Nerdfest]

Damn. I was excited. Now you've made me sad.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[elashish14]

Agreed. For school, lugging around my 7-pound laptop was far too much (like 2 extra textbooks). Investing $300 in a netbook was one of the best purchases I've ever made. Set up an ssh server at home and you're good to go. Now I don't even need to buy another non-portable laptop; from here on out, it's all desktop server machines and netbooks for me.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

You spent $265 to check email?

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[gEvil (beta)]

I currently have a Dell Mini 9 I bought for $265. It has a four hour battery life and is really snappy with Ubuntu 8.10. I use it to check my e-mail. The only downside is the weak graphics, but the new Intel chipset supposedly processes HD video on board.

to Fully agreed on the Mini 9. I loved mine so much, I ordered a second one to run OS X on fulltime (typing from it right now). For basic things like emails and browsing slashdot, these things are absolutely perfect. I even hooked it up to a 17" monitor and plugged in a USB keyboard/mouse this weekend to do some work in Quark on it (don't have Quark on my regular desktop PC). The Mini handled it like a real Mac would. Sure, something with a little more horsepower would be nice at times, but really, that's what the desktop is for. And for HD video, I have a HTPC and the PS3.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Shados]

Well, if we're talking home machine here, what CANT a netbook do for an average user? You can browse the web and emails fine, an office suite will work fine, you can listen to music and view your pictures.

What else does an average user do (lets keep it in the realm of legality here). Graphic design? No. 3d modeling? no. Compiling C++? No. Watch HD movies? Uncommon, thats for the TV, and besides, some netbooks could play 720P. High end games? No, even the average lap-top can't do it, hell, even desktop, and some people play WoW on netbooks.

So really, why couldn't a netbook replace a full PC in "most cases"? Unless we totally differ on what "most" people do on their computers.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[MightyYar]

Print this comment out and bring it to the next meeting with your psychiatrist. I think it will explain a lot.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[BikeHelmet]

Then you either need a Pandora, or an expensive Tablet.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[jcaplan]

Yep, I almost submitted the same post. But then I checked my facts.

It turns out that the graphics in this new Asus Eee 1000HE netbook is based on Intel's GMA 950 core, which is integrated into the new Atom N280 core. The recent news (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/31/1859200 ) was about the GMA 500, which has been in some recent Dell Netbooks. The 950 seems to be in the GMA 900 family, with good old Intel technology and hopefully reasonable Linux drivers.

Sorry, but that egg was *so* close to being on my face!

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[guisar]

I have to assume you haven't tried to just use a netbook. Yeah I have desktop with a giant screen and quadcore at home but at work and on the road my Asus works just great, really well in fact. I bring a long cable so I can hook it up to the flat screens that are in more and more hotel rooms. Its fantastic for meetings and I don't have to worry about battery usage. On a plane it's fantastic as it fits right in my lap. At home we keep it on a shelf in the kitchen for looking up recipes, talking via skype and streaming music. I love the the thing- funny though I hated regular size laptops.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been available as a retail box for years. Not sure what you're getting at here.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[hot soldering iron]

Sounds like you set up your own personal server/thin-client. Just another instance of big iron technology sliding down to the PC user.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Gyga]

All these netbooks are stronger than my current desktop (1GHz processor, 20 GB HDD (6.6 GB free), 247.6 MiB of memory). My next computer will probably be a netbook, I'll keep my monitor and mouse (actually a small laptop mouse because I prefer the smaller size) for when I'm not moving around.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[siwelwerd]

A five-hundred dollar, three pound netbook with a ten inch screen, over five hours of battery life, and an integrated 3G wireless card would make regular laptops obsolete for most consumers.

That sounds a heck of a lot like the EeePC 1000.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[X0563511]

That's fine, I'll be your egg shield :)

My mistake...

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[wonkavader]

Way.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[snowgirl]

That's fine, I'll be your egg shield :)

My mistake...

YOU CAN'T BE POLITE! This is SLASHDOT!

I want to watch my flamewar. :(

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[joh]

OK, the average home user is fine with a netbook, even as his only machine. If you need the thing for half an hour each day, occasionally longer, no problem.

I was thinking of the average user who works with a computer for 8 or 10 hours a day. I can do that with a laptop, but with a netbook my wrists start complaining after one hour of using the small keyboard and trackpad and the tight screen drives me up the wall.

Meanwhile I have decided that my iPod touch is better for limited things (browsing, music, email) and unlike a netbook I can put that thing in a pocket. But for real work I need a laptop and not a netbook, these things are still much too large to be mobile (instead of portable) and too small to be really useful.

So, yes: Netbooks are the new home computers, no question here. Sorry for the confusion.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Laurence0]

I sort of agree with you, but I think it depends on the person. A couple of examples, my girlfriend uses my Eee 901 as her main computer, for web browsing, IM, IRC, email etc, but she also uses the media server for watching video and downloading bigger stuff. My mum uses a MSI Wind as her main machine, but she's got a proper monitor, keyboard and mouse plugged into it (but can take it places without the accessories if she wants). The girlfriend especially is basically happy with the Eee as a main computer, and I think a lot of other people use computers in a similar way.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy with just an Eee, but I'm relatively unusual. I'm currently using a normal laptop as my main (almost only machine - there's a server as well), as I got it from work and can't be bothered to spend money on an alternative, but if I didn't have this laptop, I think my ideal would be a powerful desktop for proper computer use and an Eee on the side for travel and lounging around at home.

So, I think it depends how you use a computer. If you're a light user (which I suspect >90% of people are) then a netbook could be sufficient computer for all your home needs.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Locklin]

I wonder if netbooks are actually going to help desktop popularity. I do most of my work on a desktop as well, and a netbook gives me the extra flexibility that my colleagues have with their laptops.

They may have the convenience of only needing one computer, but I have all the horsepower/storage/comfort of a desktop to work on, *and* a lighter box to carry around to talks and such. I also have almost ubiquitous wireless Internet, so my workstation is easily available with SSH+Screen or NX.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[The Gaytriot]

I did the same thing. It gets me around the storage space issue, since my Acer only has an 8Gb ssd, and I can use any Windows Apps off the server without sacrificing the performance of the light linux distro.
The only thing more I could ask for is 3g so I could literally use my computer on the move.

Re:Netbooks are the future.

[Shados]

Ahh yes. Then we're in perfect agreement. Netbooks are useful for college students who use a lap-top only to write papers and take notes in class too (so not the average CS or Design major of course).

Trackpoint argh!

[soupforare]

Even lenovo's offering doesn't have a trackpoint, it's ridiculous. Sony's new pictu^WVaio P looks like a sweet machine and is equipped with one, but it's pricey.

Re:Trackpoint argh!

[macshit]

Lenovo is slowly but surely tossing out everything that made thinkpads nice. They'll be yet-another-generic-laptop before long.

Re:Trackpoint argh!

[sznupi]

I guess the suits thought it would cannibalise the sales of X-series.

But...most people don't need that much power in a portable computer, can't justify buying it. So I'm waiting for the succesor of Lenovo S10...if it won't have a clit, I'll just have to hunt down some used X40/41. No new sale from me.

Re:Trackpoint argh!

[soupforare]

You're probably better off with an X3*, unless you absolutely need the LV pentium. It supports more ram and doesn't use that funky 1.8" HDD.

Re:Trackpoint argh!

[sznupi]

Yes, I'm also considering it. Though I do care about battery life a lot, and it seems X4* can go longer; amount of RAM it can take will be perfectly enough, and I'll replace HDD with SD cards IDE adapter.

Plus for some reason X4* looks much nicer to me, I guess screen hinges is what makes all the difference ;p

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally: I've been waiting for something that can manage more than 8h of battery life.

Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[jfruhlinger]

Off-topic, but ... does anyone know if there's any such thing as a notebook that has basic netbook specs, but is a bit bigger? Yeah, I know, the smallness is supposed to be the whole point, but ... my second laptop (an IBM-era ThinkPad) is getting a bit long in the tooth and somewhat flaky. All it's ever used for these days is Web surfing and occasional word processing, and I'd love to replace it with a sub-$500 machine ... but my wife watches video on it quite a bit and doesn't particularly want to squint at a 9- or 10-inch screen (the current laptop is 14 inch). I know that LCD prices add some to the final cost, but is there a netbook-quality 13- or 14-inch laptop out there for not too much more than a netbook?

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[gEvil (beta)]

There's the Dell Mini 12, which has a 12" screen. Anything bigger than that and you're basically dealing with low-powered laptops.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[Bobnova]

Dell mini-12 is the closest you can get. 12" screen, better graphics chip, too.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[Arthur Grumbine]

Dude, you're getting a Toshiba !!1! Or maybe an Acer!11!. Seriously, there's always at least some deal going on for a low-end laptop going for about $500. Try here or here, if you decide to pass on the previous two offers.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[Taxman415a]

Just buy a cheap laptop when they are offered as loss leaders from the big consumer electronic stores. If you stalk the sale flyers at best buy, office max, office depot, etc, you can often find regular laptops for $350 or $400. I've seen $300 I think. But you may find you get what you pay for, low specs, cheap disks, poor build quality, etc. That sounds like it may fit your needs though.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[2short]

"I know that LCD prices add some to the final cost"

Sadly, LCD prices are the dominant factor in the final cost.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any <= 10" netbooks with more than 600 pixels vertically? All the current ones I see are 1024x600.

I hate the thought of going back to a 800x600-type screen.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[fnj]

The original HP-2133 had an 8.9", 1280x800 screen.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[bazorg]

sure. go to ebuyer.com . There are plenty of laptop PCs there dangerously close to netbook pricing. The one on offer today is a celeron-based HP with 14" screen for £289.

Re:Looking for a netbook, but bigger

[YourExperiment]

You may want to check out the HP Mini-Note 2133 with its 1280 x 768 (WXGA) resolution, although it does have a somewhat underpowered VIA Nano under the hood instead of the usual Atom.

Alternatively the Gigabyte M912 has the same screen res, with the added bonus of a touchscreen, and an Atom processor. The downside is the price (double what you can find the HP for) and the availability (I couldn't find one anywhere - do they really exist?)

However, don't forget that the width is the most important dimension. 1024 x 600 doesn't feel so bad, at least you can see the full width of most web pages. I have an Acer Aspire One, and I'm more than happy with it.

HDMI and DVI?

[tknd]

I know lots of old displays still use DSub VGA but when can I get one with HDMI?

It'd be really cool if I could just hook this up to a digital TV which everyone seems to have these days.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[jim_deane]

I know lots of old displays still use DSub VGA but when can I get one with HDMI?

It'd be really cool if I could just hook this up to a digital TV which everyone seems to have these days.

Wow. Full circle...from plugging my TRS-80 MC-10 into the television, through several generations of specialized monitors, to the "wonder" of watching TV/video on the computer screen, and now back to plugging the computer into the TV.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[sznupi]

If only those were old displays...majority of cheapeast (those which most people buy) LCDs still come only with D-sub; even more frustrating since it's just because of artificial pricing points (after all, including D-sub costs more than purely digital interface, AFAIK)

Not disagreeing with you, just noting that it's even worse/they have even less incentive to equip "those damned cheap, low-margin netbooks" with anything above d-sub...

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[Destructo-Bot]

The Asus N10 has an HDMI out, as well as a Nvidia 9300m gpu so it handles many games well enough too. Most of the games that don't work well are cpu intensive ones like Assassin's Creed and Mass Effect. With the 9 cell battery you'll get a small laptop that runs for about 8 hours at a time and can game. The only thing that it doesn't hold a candle to on a real notebook is the full-size keyboard.

N10 forums here, with a list of games and applications that will run well on it. http://www.n10user.com/index.php

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay, DRM! I can't wait to have DRM on my netbook either!

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[Anonymous Coward]

From the look of it on the ASUS promo page (http://promos.asus.com/US/1000HE/ASUS/index.html) the Eee 1000HE actually features a HDMI port!
Are my eyes deceiving me?

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[JoeMerchant]

It wasn't that long ago that 1920x1080 was beyond the reach of most "specialized" monitors - TV has finally gotten up to a decent standard after only 20 years of trying.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[Muad'Dave]

My MacBook Pro's DVI port works great at 1920x1080 with my 52" LCD TV. I bought a $5 DVI-M to HDMI-F converter from Parts Express and used one of their cheap 10m cables. It looks great. I'm a very satisfied customer of theirs - their prices are great, and the products do what they claim.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Full circle...from plugging my TRS-80 MC-10 into the television

Sad thing is that the MC-10 keyboard is about equal with some of the keyboards on these things.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[WuphonsReach]

I know lots of old displays still use DSub VGA but when can I get one with HDMI?

Or DVI.

The problem right now seems to be that the PC laptop makers are all waiting on the "next big thing" called Displayport rather then put DVI ports on their motherboards.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[petermgreen]

HDTVs (at least the ones i've tried) still suck as monitors for general computer use (they are fine for 3D games, watching video etc), sure they are much better than SDTVs and maybe prefferable to a small laptop screen but they seem to blur a bit even in thier native resoloution, they seem to be crap at locking to VGA signals and sometimes it's not even possible to get them into thier native resoloution.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[mmj638]

Check out the Asus N10 series. Some models have HDMI out.

They are the only netbooks I know about that have HDMI, and they're about as big as a 1000H.

Re:HDMI and DVI?

[mmj638]

They may be. Are you looking at the Kensington lock slot? It seems to be horizontal, to the left of the ethernet port.

To my knowledge the graphics on the 1000HE are basically a shrunk down and overclocked version of the same GMA950 platform.

Timing is everything

[Anonymous Coward]

I *just* bought a EPC1000HA. Got here a few days ago. Crap.

No, it's part of the third wave.

[Dzimas]

The eee PC 701 was the prototypical first-gen netbook (awkwardly cramped 7" screen and as little as 2 GB flash memory). Machines like the eee PC 901 and Acer Aspire One were part of the extremely successful second-gen (8.9" screens, 8 GB to 32 GB flash memory or up to 160 GB HD + XP or a Vista Neutered option). The new chipset (along with 10" screenage) belongs to the third generation.

Ditch x86?

[ChunderDownunder]

I keep reading how the x86 instruction set is a limiting factor on efficiency when compared to others such as ARM and MIPS. Though x86 chips are capable of being cranked at higher Hz to compensate.

Though Intel didn't have spectacular success with 'Itanic', might they now consider designing an ISA specifically for low power?

Attracting a big enough market would be the issue, given the Wintel hegemony. But if Linux netbooks find a niche, perhaps Apple could be persuaded to port to this new 'Proton' CPU for "OS X Netbook Edition"? With intel's backing they wouldn't face the same fabrication problems as they had with PowerPC.
[Insert obligatory beowulf cluster comment].

Re:Ditch x86?

[guppysap13]

I remember reading about some Dell laptops that had both an Intel chip and an ARM chip. The Intel was used for Windows/Linux normally. For simpler tasks (basic browsing, email, etc.), the laptop booted Linux using the ARM chip, attached to the same hardware. It had much better battery life on ARM, but still was able to use the Intel if it needed to do more processor-intense tasks. Or run Windows. Ahh...here's the article http://news.softpedia.com/news/Intel-and-ARM-Processors-Inside-the-Same-Notebook-98601.shtml

Re:Ditch x86?

[BikeHelmet]

I really doubt Intel would branch out with a new architecture - or at least, not a low power one. Remember that 80-core processor they made a while back? They'd probably make a new architecture for processors like that, to improve their dominance in the server/render-farm market.

ARM really has low power and small locked down. An Atom is impressive at 2 watts, but ARM will soon be doing the same at 0.1 watts, and with ARM SoCs everything is in a single chip, so you can also cut out 20 watts from the other components in the netbook.

There's no point really... The Atom(and netbooks in general) are huge cash cows, but x86 will never try to take over the Cellphone/Ultra-Low-Power-Device market.

Re:Ditch x86?

[dudpixel]

the trouble with ditching x86 is finding someone who will spend the $$$$$$ to develop a more efficient processor knowing that it wont run windows.

The whole reason for netbooks is that you can still do all the usual stuff on them - and if your 'usual stuff' means running your windows apps then you'll want to run windows.

To me the biggest benefit of netbooks is that they are cheap, small and x86 - so its like a pda but with a real keyboard, good sized screen and its a full computer.

Re:Ditch x86?

[plasmacutter]

When last I heard, all intel's chips were risc with an x86 hardware interpreter tacked on.

Remove the interpreter?

Re:Ditch x86?

[drinkypoo]

I keep reading how the x86 instruction set is a limiting factor on efficiency when compared to others such as ARM and MIPS. Though x86 chips are capable of being cranked at higher Hz to compensate.

Read a little more carefully. In practice, x86 has some actual benefits. The lack of a fixed instruction length can actually reduce code size, for example. It is true that even with register renaming, x86 suffers from register starvation, though.

The x86 chips which can be cranked to a higher clock rate to compensate can generally do so because they have been made less efficient to do so. The most extreme historical case is the Pentium 4, which has multiple "drive" stages which are basically pipeline steps to wait for signal propagation across the chip. They are a big part of its terrible penalty for branch misprediction.

Though Intel didn't have spectacular success with 'Itanic', might they now consider designing an ISA specifically for low power?

Nah. They licensed ARM instead, like everyone else. As it turns out, many of us seem to want to keep x86 compatibility, for a wide variety of reasons but usually centered around Windows :(

Re:Ditch x86?

[snowgirl]

When last I heard, all intel's chips were risc with an x86 hardware interpreter tacked on.

Remove the interpreter?

Can't. The x86 chips now are CISC front-ends with interpreters to VLIW processors. VLIW = Very Large Instruction Word. With each instruction taking up 256-bit (let's say, the IW length on some of the Crusoe) you end up with 32-bytes per instruction. That makes for incredible space inefficiency for programs. Imagine office.exe itself took up 1GiB of memory on its own. ICK!

Re:Ditch x86?

[snowgirl]

the trouble with ditching x86 is finding someone who will spend the $$$$$$ to develop a more efficient processor knowing that it wont run windows.

I think the hardest thing to find is someone who will spend the $$$$$$ to develop a more efficient processor knowing that its been done before and each one "failed".

True each one has their own little niché market. ARM in embedded and PowerPC uh.... well, losing ground to ARM...

Re:Ditch x86?

[rrohbeck]

Cool idea, but pretty soon people would notice that they don't really need the x86 if the ARM can do browsing and email. So, Intel is not going to like this idea.
OTOH, if someone made something like a Netbook with an ARM and an e-ink display it would run for days on a charge. A Kindle on steroids.

Re:Ditch x86?

[horza]

http://blogs.computerworld.com/apples_tablet_to_be_based_on_arm_cortex_architecture
"While pretty close in speed, the ARM Cortex A8 absolutely kills the Intel Atom in power efficiency. We are talking Apples and Oranges here. Not double, but an order of magnitude better for ARM. Some ARM chips routinely use 10-20 times less power than Intel for similar operations. Battery usage with ARM chips in prospective netbooks could be measured in days, not hours - much like smartphones."

Phillip.

Re:Ditch x86?

[horza]

Read link I posted a couple above:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/apples_tablet_to_be_based_on_arm_cortex_architecture

Interesting read.

Phillip.

Re:Ditch x86?

[petermgreen]

I keep reading how the x86 instruction set is a limiting factor on efficiency when compared to others such as ARM and MIPS.
I keep seeing it claimed on /. but I haven't seen anyone post benchmarks that support the claim they are a good choice for netbooks (my guess is they are lower power but also much lower performance).

Also I belive for a machine used primerally as an internet terminal and possiblly to run some other apps as well linux on x86 will give a better user experiance and more longevity for reasons I elaborate in
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1105799&cid=26627981

Re:Ditch x86?

[petermgreen]

Nah. They licensed ARM instead, like everyone else. As it turns out, many of us seem to want to keep x86 compatibility, for a wide variety of reasons but usually centered around Windows :(
Even on linux I think x86 is still nicer.

On an x86 I can install a generic distro and be sure that flash, java, and apps that use floating point will all be availible and will perform at a decent speed.

On arm if I install debian (the only generic distro i'm aware of with long standing support for arm) I will get no flash, an interpreter only JVM (iirc sun and arm won't release details on the java extentions supported by some arm chips each blaming contracts with the other) and software (or worse emulated) floating point (since there is no one standard FPU for the arm family)

That basically means I would be stuck with the manufacturers distro which is very likely to stop getting updates a few years after the device is released and is very likely to be difficult to find software for.

Re:Ditch x86?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you cut 20 watts from a device that uses around 10 watts in normal use?

Holding out

[Shados]

I'm personally holding out to see if they come out with (admitedly high end) multi-touch Windows 7 based net books. There's already some slick tablet PCs that are nearly netbook-sized (I've only seen them in some asian countries, dunno if some are available here...didn't see any anyway), the future is looking bright.

What the EEE Should Have Been

[LUH 3418]

If this works out nearly as well as they say it will, this will be what the original EEE should have been. The 10" screen will be more readable, the slightly larger keyboard more comfortable, while keeping the unit light and portable compared to a regular laptop.

Furthermore, the chipset being integrated into the 45nm CPU will fix the problem of having an outdated chipset that consumes several times more power than your CPU does (negating the benefits of a low power CPU). We might finally see some *good* battery life on these things.

Now, we just have to hope the price won't suck. I'm placing my bet at ~$550-700, pretty much as expensive as an OK regular laptop, but more portable...

Re:What the EEE Should Have Been

[Anonymous Coward]

A bigger issue for me is the slowness of the currently installed SSDs. They are painfully slow with long pauses in the machine operation, especially on writes, almost as bad as any of the USB drives that I've used. This is on both a 900 (900 MHz Celeron) and on a 900A (1.6G Atom).

Re:What the EEE Should Have Been

[petermgreen]

It seems in a few months time HP will be releasing a machine which IMO solves most of the issues with current netbooks. Namely the HP mininote 2140 with the higher resoloution screen option (the mininote 2140 is already availible but only with the crappy screen resoloution)

* roughly the same size as a EEE 900
* proper 2.5 inch hard drive (SSD option availible though it doubles the price, may be better to get your SSD elsewhere and fit it yourself)
* 10.1 inch 1366x768 display (thats right, a display that doesn't have problems with apps whose designers assume you have at least a 1024x768 screen)

Re:What the EEE Should Have Been

[petermgreen]

looks like they even managed to squeeze in an expresscard slot!

Mod parent up

[Taxman415a]

If I had em right now you'd get em, but someone should mod you up.

I think you're right about it taking an ARM product to really bring the prices down. A number of articles have been claiming people are working on them but we'll see. I'm sure you're right about the Wintel cohort putting all their collective muscle into stopping anything like that from happening though. It would carve into both of their margins if someone could make a decently functional product that used less battery, lasted longer, was lighter, and was cheaper.

Re:Mod parent up

[jmorris42]

> I'm sure you're right about the Wintel cohort putting all their collective muscle into
> stopping anything like that from happening though.

Which is why the MIPS based units designed and pushed by Chinese only vendors aren't getting anywhere after almost a year of units being available to buy in bulk. The ARM efforts have several advantages. First they are faster, better tech. They can probably really do HD video and a Flash player is known to exist for ARM so a full browser experience is possible. More important is several Western/US chipmakers see a multi-billion dollar opportunity if they can leverage smartphone chips up a notch to compete in the netbook space. Broadcom, TI, Nokia, etc aren't exactly on the same playing field with Intel and Microsoft but they have enough marketing muscle and existing presence in the retail channels to avoid being locked totally out of the store shelves. Now imagine what happens when these vendors who already have good relationships with the cell carriers pitch bundling deals. Imagine the fireworks should AT&T offer up a free ARM netbook with a service plan.

All that has ever been needed to blow the Windows monopoly to smitheens is for a critical mass of customers to realize they can survive without Windows/Office. Putting tens of millions of ARM+Linux netbooks in the field just might do the trick. No Windows wouldn't vanish but their ability to command monopoly prices would be forever smashed and that would end their cash cow, without which they would lack the ability to cause much mischief.

Re:Mod parent up

[EvilNTUser]

>Imagine the fireworks should AT&T offer up a free ARM netbook with a service plan.

Be careful what you wish for. Do you really want people getting "free" computers that are as restrictive as the "free" cell phones they push at people? It would be the *death* of mainstream Linux.

And don't think people wouldn't put up with it. Us Europeans are already amazed you put up with the crippled cell phones just so you can buy them on credit.

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

> Imagine the fireworks should AT&T offer up a free ARM netbook with a service plan.

Newsflash: I've already seen several netbooks (Intel/Windows) for free with a mobile service plan.

Re:Mod parent up

[Jurily]

Be careful what you wish for. Do you really want people getting "free" computers that are as restrictive as the "free" cell phones they push at people? It would be the *death* of mainstream Linux.

Still much to learn, you have. Read up on GPL3.

They would have to resort to one of the BSDs.

Re:Mod parent up

[EvilNTUser]

Yes, they would, but it would be very easy, and a lot of them would run Windows or MacOS (lock in to which is no more acceptable even if "more polished").

Masses of computer hardware that couldn't run Linux at all would be a disaster of gigantic proportions.

Re:Mod parent up

[Registered Coward v2]

>Imagine the fireworks should AT&T offer up a free ARM netbook with a service plan.

Be careful what you wish for. Do you really want people getting "free" computers that are as restrictive as the "free" cell phones they push at people? It would be the *death* of mainstream Linux.

Why? As long as the machine lets people surf the net and do light office type tasks (which Linux/Firefox/OO) will do just fine, they won't care what OS it runs.

The challenge will be games; and if enough devices can be pushed you'd start to see developers write games for it.

I'd guess that a manufacturer would use BSD rather than Linux if only to better control who can use any changes they make; if they thought the market was big enough.

And don't think people wouldn't put up with it. Us Europeans are already amazed you put up with the crippled cell phones just so you can buy them on credit.

If by crippled you mean carrier locked the reason we put up with it is that it has no impact on most US cell phone users. We have a network that spans a space about the size of Europe where we can use our cell phones anywhere in that space without worrying about roaming charges. We don't need to worry about changing carriers to get good rates; so you pick a provider based on coverage or that has the cool phone you want.

In addition, our "locked" phones aren't that locked, ATT will unlock some phones after you've been with them a few months, including pay as you go phones; not sure about T-Mobile. Sprint and Verizon phones aren't really locked but since each others phone id's don't show up in the others database they can't or won't activate a rival phone; although at one time you could activate Sprint Treos on Verizon. There was talk of allowing non-carrier branded phones to be activated but I'm not sure if that ever happened.

The bigger question is why worry about phone mobility? If you switch carriers you get a new subsidized phone anyway; and it seems many people view phones as a throwaway that gets replaced every 15 months or so anyway. You don't get a price break for a non-subsidized phone, so there is no advantage to buying one. In the US you don't have to worry about roaming charges so you don't need to swap SIMs as you travel. Since a significant percentage of Americans never travel abroad the ability to get a cheap SIM plan overseas is not needed. I do travel abroad and have a cheap pay as you go phone that is unlocked fro use overseas; it cost me a total of $10 for the phone. I unlocked it myself; but had I kept my account active for 3 more months (after the 1st month that was included in the price of the phone) at $10 or so a month ATT would have unlocked it for me for free.

Not having to shell out a few hundred dollars up front increases the penetration of cell phones in the US since more people will pay XX$ per month than $200 up front plus XX$ less the subsidy cost. If you look at European providers they also offer subsidized phones so it seems Europeans like that option as well.

In short, the US and European markets are different because of the nature of the markets. Ours created one large calling area rather than the patchwork of carriers that are legacies of the period prior to the "United Europe." Ours works for us, yours works for you. Both have pluses and minuses, but neither way is inherently better; just different.

Re:Mod parent up

[Registered Coward v2]

All that has ever been needed to blow the Windows monopoly to smitheens is for a critical mass of customers to realize they can survive without Windows/Office. Putting tens of millions of ARM+Linux netbooks in the field just might do the trick. No Windows wouldn't vanish but their ability to command monopoly prices would be forever smashed and that would end their cash cow, without which they would lack the ability to cause much mischief.

Except MS would probably develop a netbook version of Windows with a trimmed down version of Office; if only to maintain their dominance of the desktop. While it wouldn't make as much money as a full blown Windows license it would be valuable as a strategic move to protect their higher margin offerings.

As long as netbooks are viewed as less-capable or lite versions of real notebooks that strategy will work. Hardware manufacturers have a vested interest in keeping that distinction as well in order to protect their higher margin laptops.

A Windows based netbook would have the advantage of running many existing programs; which would be a strong selling point as well.

I think MS would see netbooks as yet another market to embrace and assimilate into the Windows fold. If it grows, they will be there to protect their position; if not, then the cost to enter was small and worth the price to be primed to take advantage of it should it have grown,

I think the netbook market will grow, because people will see them as a cheap alternative to a laptop, which means they'll run Windows and hardware companies will see sales of low end laptops drop as netbooks take their market share.

Re:Mod parent up

[EvilNTUser]

It's not just about switching operators. The widespread lockin lets the operators dictate what features the phones have, and it has damaged the US market significantly. In Europe, a lot of people go for the contract option, but the large unlocked market ensures that operators don't have power over the phone manufacturers. I'm constantly reading articles raving about features we've had for years that have nothing to do with building networks.

If you don't get a price break for buying a phone on your own it just means the carriers have so much power they can screw you over. That's not a sign of a healthy market.

As for people being happy with what comes installed, sure, but the effect of lockin on competition retards progress, and prevents anyone who does care from installing what they want. There is NO benefit to the consumer in such a system.

Re:Mod parent up

[Registered Coward v2]

It's not just about switching operators. The widespread lockin lets the operators dictate what features the phones have, and it has damaged the US market significantly. In Europe, a lot of people go for the contract option, but the large unlocked market ensures that operators don't have power over the phone manufacturers. I'm constantly reading articles raving about features we've had for years that have nothing to do with building networks.

Don't confuse writer's opinions with those of the broad customer base. Most people want a phone that works, and messaging. A camera is nice as well. While many /. would like the latest and greatest my experience has been their preferences aren't those of the broader market.

So I guess I don't understand what you mean by it has damaged the US market significantly.

If you don't get a price break for buying a phone on your own it just means the carriers have so much power they can screw you over. That's not a sign of a healthy market.

As for people being happy with what comes installed, sure, but the effect of lockin on competition retards progress, and prevents anyone who does care from installing what they want. There is NO benefit to the consumer in such a system.

,P>I'd submit that the constant lowering of the cost of cell phone contracts is the sign of healthy market that benefits consumers. Over the 15 years I've had a cell phone I've seen the cost of service decline to the point that I now pay annually what I used to pay monthly for the same usage. I'd say that is the greatest benefit to consumers- lower prices.

That's borne out by the massive penetration of cell phones in the US, to the point where the land line business is rapidly dying as cell phones replace land lines. Considering a $15 add on line to most contracts can replace a $40+ land line (both after tax, fees, service, etc) I'd say consumers are benefiting fine from our model. One strength is that I don't pay extra to call a cell phone, it's all part of the basic minute plan. While I get charged minutes for every call (in or out), the combination of not using minutes to call anyone on my provider and no minute charge evenings and weekends means a reasonable base plan is essentially unlimited; and for $100 I can get a no limits to calling no matter where I roam in the US.

The lack of phone competition, IMHO, has not harmed US consumers in any significant manner, if at all.

In fact, I'd say the EU's system has harmed consumers more . You can't roam without worrying about data and call charges, or in some cases can't roam at all. For example, my UK based O2 pay as you go won't work in Portugal even though Lisbon is closer to London than Chicago is to NY (where I can roam on my ATT Pay as You go with no problem or added cost). In addition, if I call a cell phone from a landline I have to pay extra for the call; where I can call any US phone (as well as UK, Spain, germany and a few other countries as well) from my land line, at no extra charge.

As I said, the markets evolved differently due to the nature of the market and consumer wants. Neither way is inherently better or worse, just different.

Re:Mod parent up

[EvilNTUser]

I'll give you some specific examples, but first I'll say that I've never understood the argument that something that caters to "most people" is good enough. If the European system results in products ranging from super low end to super high end, how is a system that ignores high/super high end devices not worse?

The ridiculous roaming charges are an unfortunate byproduct of several different countries trying to work together. The EU has in fact cracked down on them lately. It has nothing to do with locked or unlocked hardware. Prices are going down in all markets. The difference is that features are increasing faster outside the US.

Now, the examples. In the EU, it's routine to for example see something cool you want to buy and send a picture message to your wife. The iPhone was launched without such a feature and people didn't even blink. In fact, people will defend the omission as "useless" if it's pointed out. It may not be mindblowing, but it's just one in a long list of conveniences.

In the EU, completely average people have been surfing on their phones for a long time. In the US, everyone is pretending the iPhone invented mobile browsing. Just yesterday there was a slashdot article about how the iPhone may get a front facing secondary camera, which is pretty much standard on European smartphones.

In the US, Verizon was sued in bloody 2005 because it wouldn't let customers copy photos to their computers without using an expensive network service.

In the US, Steve Jobs was required to explain that Apple's device is both a phone and an iPod before people realized that phones are able to function as music players (with Ogg Vorbis support no less, except for Apple).

I don't want to go on, but you probably get the point.

Re:Mod parent up

[Registered Coward v2]

I'll give you some specific examples, but first I'll say that I've never understood the argument that something that caters to "most people" is good enough. If the European system results in products ranging from super low end to super high end, how is a system that ignores high/super high end devices not worse?

Well, to begin with the US market does not ignore the super high end - you can buy any unlocked European phone taht is quad and and use it on the ATT or TMobile network just fine. The major carriers ignore that market because it is just not profitable enough for them to cater to it.

If your definition of worse is that a market does not cater to every specific customer would mean the EU market is worse than the US because I can call anywhere in the US, to any phone, for as long as I like form anywhere in the US for a flat $80 while EU providers do not provide the same service; thereby ignoring a specific set of customers. I don't buy that "you're worse because you do not provide every service we do here" argument form either side of the pond. We're just different.

The ridiculous roaming charges are an unfortunate byproduct of several different countries trying to work together. The EU has in fact cracked down on them lately. It has nothing to do with locked or unlocked hardware. Prices are going down in all markets. The difference is that features are increasing faster outside the US.

Again, that doesn't make either market better or worse, just different.

Now, the examples. In the EU, it's routine to for example see something cool you want to buy and send a picture message to your wife. The iPhone was launched without such a feature and people didn't even blink. In fact, people will defend the omission as "useless" if it's pointed out. It may not be mindblowing, but it's just one in a long list of conveniences.

Apple fanboys aside, I've been able to send picture messages for a long time on Treos and razors and other phone; Apple's stupid decision doesn't mean the capability isn't available for someone who wants it.

In the EU, completely average people have been surfing on their phones for a long time. In the US, everyone is pretending the iPhone invented mobile browsing. Just yesterday there was a slashdot article about how the iPhone may get a front facing secondary camera, which is pretty much standard on European smartphones.

Again, while the iPhone may have made browsing more accessible, I've been browsing for years on various phones before the iPhone. I do like my iPhone's browser, however.

In the US, Verizon was sued in bloody 2005 because it wouldn't let customers copy photos to their computers without using an expensive network service.

I wouldn't define a market by a lawsuit as the result of one stupid decision by a carrier. Would you judge teh whole EU over the issues with unlocking in France?

In the US, Steve Jobs was required to explain that Apple's device is both a phone and an iPod before people realized that phones are able to function as music players (with Ogg Vorbis support no less, except for Apple).

I don't want to go on, but you probably get the point.

There's a difference between consumers not having capabilities each of the examples you used don't demonstrate new capabilities for phones in the US market since each of them (Picture messaging, browsing, MP3 players) have been available for years on phones in the US market.

Apple's great at marketing features and creating awareness of them, but that doesn't mean they were the first to offer them.

If you focus on Apple, they don't always offer every service from the US iTunes store to the rest of the world - does that make the rest of the world's phone market worse? Not really, it just means Apple does things there way.

Features on a phone do not define market succ

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me the flash player for Linux on ARM. Does it really exist?

Because on my PPC Linux box I have to do with sucky gnash.

Re:Mod parent up

[ncc74656]

Now, the examples. In the EU, it's routine to for example see something cool you want to buy and send a picture message to your wife. The iPhone was launched without such a feature and people didn't even blink.

Huh? The iPhone emails the pictures it takes just fine. At the other end of the connection, you fire up the email app on your phone/computer/whatever and view what was sent. What functionality is missing in that?

Re:Mod parent up

[ncc74656]

(Crap...should've finished reading your post first so I wouldn't have to waste a second post responding to a second point.)

In the EU, completely average people have been surfing on their phones for a long time. In the US, everyone is pretending the iPhone invented mobile browsing.

Nobody here is under that misconception. What the iPhone brought to the table was mobile browsing that didn't suck. (I write from experience, having used a Treo 650 for over three years before picking up an iPhone a couple of months ago.)

Re:Mod parent up

[jmorris42]

> Show me the flash player for Linux on ARM.

Try looking at the Nokia tablets. ARM processors, Flash enabled Mozilla based browser in the new one, Opera + Flash in the older ones. Adn it is an official closed source Flash Player plugin. It might only be Flash 7 but I suspect a firm order for a million or two licenses from Nokia or Broadcom would motivate Adobe's code monkeys to get to work porting Flash 10. Flash on ARM isn't a free download ya know, it's a per unit licensed product.

Re:Mod parent up

[jmorris42]

> Still much to learn, you have. Read up on GPL3.

Nothing in a current Linux distro requires the GPL3, especially not Linux itself which is forever frozen at GPLv2. If your reasoning were correct handset makers would be shovelling BSD into phones instead of Linux. They are finally 'getting it'. The GPL really does work better for EVERYBODY because it forces a level playing field and thus avoids the Tragedy of the Commons problem BSD has. Companies trying to directly SELL the fruits of Free Software prefer the BSD license but handset makers are selling hardware and see a bigger ooportunity if the software evolves at GPL speed AND stays compatible across hardware vendors.

Look to Microsoft for an example, hundreds of hardware vendors flourished under their rule for a long time before their monopoly began to chafe. This time they don't plan to make the same mistake, instead the software running on their hardware will mostly be a commons that will allow them to mostly forget about the software and do what they do best, build and market hardware.

Re:Mod parent up

[jmorris42]

> Newsflash: I've already seen several netbooks (Intel/Windows) for free with a mobile service plan.

Yes. Limited promotions on gold plated service plans.

I'm talking about volume sales. Stacks in the mall cell phone booth. The Symbian alliance proved the cell handset makers and carriers understand the death awaiting them in Microsoft's embrace. They won't make that mistake. A few of the stupid ones will, but as an industry I just don't see it. The trap is just too obvious. NOBODY has ever been close to Micorosft and lived with the sole exception of Intel and they both need each other too badly to stray from their marriage too far, although Intel is really slumming around with the penguins lately. I think they would like to find a way out... but there ins't one. Linux doesn't need x86.

Re:Mod parent up

[bcrowell]

Except MS would probably develop a netbook version of Windows with a trimmed down version of Office; if only to maintain their dominance of the desktop. While it wouldn't make as much money as a full blown Windows license it would be valuable as a strategic move to protect their higher margin offerings.

The thing is that if netbooks got down to $100, MS's profit margin would have to be essentially zero. A world where users can freely choose Windows versus Linux, and where MS makes zero profit even on the users who choose Windows, is not a good world in which to be MS.

As long as netbooks are viewed as less-capable or lite versions of real notebooks that strategy will work. Hardware manufacturers have a vested interest in keeping that distinction as well in order to protect their higher margin laptops.

Dell has a vested interest in maintaining that distinction. Asus doesn't. Asus has been drifting closer and closer to the mainstream notebook market.

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

you're also missing the fact that link needs better office support.

This isnt about openoffice, it's about standard office suites and groupware support, right now, it's a cloud, oh and this isnt just the client side, server side as well. Linux needs to be strong on the desktop, server, and the office to start taking off, as people want familiarity.

Re:Mod parent up

[Registered Coward v2]

The thing is that if netbooks got down to $100, MS's profit margin would have to be essentially zero. A world where users can freely choose Windows versus Linux, and where MS makes zero profit even on the users who choose Windows, is not a good world in which to be MS.

You make several assumptions that i think may not be valid:

1) That MS will be unable to charge for an OS as the netbook price approaches $100. If people show a preference for a netbook with Windows MS will still be able to charge for since it helps create demand for the product; costs will have to be driven out of hardware to lower the price point. While MS may not get what they get for full blown Windows they can still charge. I think this is a viable scenario that allows MS to limit the inroads of free OS's into the mainstream and make a fe bucks at the same time.

2) Manufacturers will migrate to Linux as a mainstream OS to lower price. I think they may consider BSD because they can retain control over any changes without having to release source code, ala Apple. This allows them to ensure compatibility to lower support costs and differentiate their product from other in the marketplace.

As long as netbooks are viewed as less-capable or lite versions of real notebooks that strategy will work. Hardware manufacturers have a vested interest in keeping that distinction as well in order to protect their higher margin laptops.

Dell has a vested interest in maintaining that distinction. Asus doesn't. Asus has been drifting closer and closer to the mainstream notebook market.

Considering ASUS offers a range of net and note books they have an interest in being able to maintain price points as well.

Re:Mod parent up

[darien]

Even assuming the recipient can get email on their phone, how are they supposed to know they have a picture message waiting? MMS was designed for this role, and does it much better than email, and (at least in Europe) is the absolutely normal and standard way of doing this. And it's missing.

Re:Mod parent up

[ncc74656]

Even assuming the recipient can get email on their phone

If a phone doesn't do email, it's hopelessly stuck in the past. Different priorities, I guess...I kinda like that my inbox is accessible anywhere (over IMAPS or HTTPS, from a computer, cellphone, or whatever), whereas text messages and such are only accessible through your cellphone.

Windows

[thestreetmeat]

Without revealing what operating system the PC 1000HE will include, Asus says the netbook will provide "fast bootup and shutdown times."

Looks like it comes with XP home

But of course!

[BLKMGK]

I just bought an HP Netbook on Sunday, of course that means that the new generation that I had tried to wait for was due out! Dammit!

I really want that NVIDIA chipset too and oh I dunno a dual core Atom. Longer batt life is nice I guess but so far this one has been chugging along pretty good. Camera leaves a bit to be desired. These are cheap enough though that I won't feel too guilty about picking up another if the prices don't go crazy. Just keep the keyboards a decent size and pretty please give us an eraser head mousie pointer? Please? Touch pads suck IMO although multitouch might be nice...

Re: Arm

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't an Arm in the NintendoDS? They have wifi. And while no keyboard, they are a great form factor - and sell profitably at $125 all week long.

9.5 hours? I'll believe it when i see it

[ffflala]

9.5 hours of battery time sounds like quite a stretch from the marketing & hype dept.

The EeePC 1000HE's 8,700mAh battery replaces the 6,600mAh battery on the 1000 models from last August. My 1000 has gotten a bit over four hours now with light usage at the most power conservative settings on both the distros I've tried on it so far.

I'm not sure if time scales up directly with mAhs, but if it does that would put the upcoming model around 5.5 hours.

Re:9.5 hours? I'll believe it when i see it

[Alistair Hutton]

I think the battery life increase comes from the change of graphics chip/integration. On current netbooks the Intel graphics are the major power draw, something like twice to three times the processor. With the integration of the new chipset that will take a serious chunk out of the Wattage.

Re: Arm

[BikeHelmet]

Yeah, but isn't the DS a dual-core 33mhz CPU or something? 4MB of RAM! Hardly usable for surfing the net and IM'ing friends.

I'd rather get a Pandora, once they're available. It appears to have enough processing power to play an MP3 while loading GIMP + Firefox(according to a vid from one of the developers), so as far as ultra-portables go, it's looking pretty good.

Plus, it has all the weird extras, like a touchscreen and gaming controls.

"chiclet" keyboard? oh crap.

[Henkc]

The device will also sport a new "chiclet" keyboard design...

Hopefully this is not the same chiclet keyboards you get on cheap-shit calculators.

Contrary to popular belief, a decent (scissor-tech) keyboard is fucking vital.

Form Factor

[LuYu]

This all sounds nice, but the real question is: Are these things going to be in an original EeePC case or one of the larger ones like the Eee1000? I mean, the appeal of the Eee was its small size. I bought a 901 specifically because the 1000 was too big and they were going to stop selling the 901. If I want a big clunky laptop, I can just go to all the usual vendors.

I am glad battery life will be better and that these computers will be more powerful, but fitting easily into a backpack is also an important factor (one that the S101 got totally wrong). I can have a huge display at home. When I am out of the house, I want my portable computer to be, well, portable.

MSI has one in development

[Kupfernigk]

MSI is reported to have a netbook with, basically, the screen of the MacBook Air coming out around April. Obviously the processor will be slower than the original, but it's likely to be half to a third of the price.

Is display resolution better than 1024x600?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the display resolution any bigger than the 1024x600 that most netbooks sport now? The article doesn't say anything other than it's a 10 inch screen.

I'd like to see at least 1024x768. There's too much up and down scrolling with 600 only pixels.

Re:Is display resolution better than 1024x600?

[CFBMoo1]

I think the next time I buy a netbook will be when they have the resolution at 1024x768 and not just fudged with software or something. My EEE 1000 40G works just fine, especially after I put Ubuntu on the sucker.

Looks pretty nice.

[Fantastic Lad]

Asus is releasing its third-generation netbooks while everybody else is still adding up the sales figures on their first.

The only other company with a lead is HP, who just released its second generation. . , what do they call it? I actually got to play with one the other day. Looks nice. Still has that big keyboard, but the brushed metal case is gone. So is the stupid price; it's actually come down a couple hundred bucks. To be honest, I didn't even bother checking it's specs, but looked pretty decent. Everybody has a netbook out now, and they all look pretty workable.

I wonder how far away we are from, "free calculator in the mail" days wrt netbooks? --Well, we probably aren't, since the difference between a computer and a calculator is that one lives in the drawer and you don't really need one except at tax time, whereas the other one is like the crack-cocaine of electronics --without the health risks or the stigma. (How many hours a day?) They'll always be able to charge lots of money for computers.

As a happy Asus owner, (a 1000H), I must say that making a larger battery sit flush with the underside is a very nice touch, and the promise of a more efficient chipset is also nice, (But 9.5 hours? Pull the other one! I'll be impressed if you get 7. Actually, I'd be very impressed, but you're still lying.). --But all of that is a little too incremental for my taste.

The only way I'd replace the little guy, (which is still just the most awesome device, thanks for asking), is when OLED screens come down in price to the point where they can be cranked out cheaply. Have you seen those things? I was looking at one in a Sony store, and you actually find yourself doing that thing which the Doctor's New Assistant always does on her first day with the TARDIS. You can't help it. The screen is only about 3mm thick, and most of that appears to be material to keep it rigid. --It's also brighter and crisper than any flat screen today, and the viewing angle question is moot.

I'll trade in my eee1000 when somebody makes a netbook with one of those screens. And maybe not even then. I only stopped using the original keyboard which came with my first PC back in the early Nineties because some of the plastic switches had decomposed beyond functionality. I like to get my money's worth!

-FL

Re: Arm

[horza]

Don't try and compare MHz between a CISC x86 and a RISC ARM processor. The latter will blow the former out of the water per clock cycle.

Actually I remember having a 8MHz ARM computer with 2MB of RAM called the A3000. It ran a full windowing system, had FMV, as many browser windows open as you wanted, Java, IRC, etc. Ran Artworks, the precursor to Xara Xtreme. Fantastic PC.

Phillip.

It's the way it swings on your belt.

[reiisi]

Or the way it rides in your backpack.

And I agree. When you're moving long distances and/or at-speed under your own power, even a hundred grams can sometimes be the difference between getting to work worn out or just slightly sweaty.

Re:It's the way it swings on your belt.

[Anonymous Coward]

someone shoot these babies. the difference of a couple hundred grams? This is absolutely ridiculous. We can calculate all kinds of work from your retarded ass swinging around and the number is going to be imperceptible. 100g matters for a competition hill climber, not you ya stinking scumbag. Why are you even biking anyway? Sounds like you belong in a car on a highway stuck in traffic eating a big mac.

No SSD and forced Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Asus is ditching the features that made the first Eee a real innovation. I don't know what is wrong with them.

MSRP = $400US, on Amazon for $374

[Bearhouse]

Seems to be true.

Here: http://promos.asus.com/US/1000HE/ASUS/index.html

And pre-order on Amazon, for $374, this spec:

ASUS Eee PC 1000HE 10-Inch Netbook (1.66 GHz Intel Atom N280 Processor, 1 GB RAM, 160 GB Hard Drive, Bluetooth, XP Home, 6 Cell Battery) Black

Link here:

http://www.amazon.com/10-Inch-Netbook-Processor-Bluetooth-Battery/dp/B001QTXL82/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1233608330&sr=8-3

Might get (another) one - very happy with the various Eee PCs that litter the house. But get Eeebuntu. XP also runs fine on all of 'em, even the really low-end ones.
(http://www.eeebuntu.org/index.php?page=download)

Re:Second wave...

[Anonymous Coward]

...first reply to first post!

This is idiotic, stop doing that...

Re:"chiclet" keyboard? oh crap.

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, regardless of how good the keyboard is or isn't on a notebook, I usually get a "real" keyboard to use when I'm at my desk. You can peck out an e-mail on almost anything (including a 9 key cellphone pad if you have to), but real typing demands one of those luxury keyboards from a specialized vendor - like a $20 wireless unit from Logitech, with mouse.

Fail.

[MistrBlank]

My Macbook is about 4 pounds, this is 3 and I have a bigger screen, more capable keyboard and more capable dual core processor in a system that when I just browse the web and take email lasts 4 hours. Oh and it's rounding it's way to 2 and a half years old.

Oh and for Asus to call this 3rd generation is kind of silly since most other manufacturers skipped the first generation.

Re:Fail.

[pimpimpim]

well, but your macbook was way more expensive. To me, anything more expensive than 400 EUR and heavier than 1 kg is not a netbook anymore. That is what will keep me from buying a netbook tablet for a while, heavy and expensive.

Re:Fail.

[toddestan]

So in other words a computer that costs 4 times as much has a better screen, better keyboard, faster processor, and a larger battery? Who would have thought?

Re:"chiclet" keyboard? oh crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

mmmmmmmmm . . . chiclets . . .

Re: Arm

[Wdomburg]

The new one (DSi) is a 133MHz ARM9 with a 33MHz ARM7 coprocessor. Main processor on the older ones was 67MHz. It also upgrades it from 4MB to 16MB main memory and includes a music player and web browser.

Not as capable as an ultraportable but it certainly sounds like it would fit the bill for the "browser in a box" market.

When competing directly with cell phones?

[msbmsb]

At what point do these stripped-down netbooks begin competing directly with large screen, wi-fi/wan-enabled cell phones that can be used as a 'browser in a box' with office document reading/editing, games, email, IM, plus being a cell phone?

Reaching the levels of $200 and below are right at subsidized smartphone levels. With new chips like Qualcomm's 1Ghz snapdragon now in use in a phone with a 4.1", 480x800 touchscreen, what makes a netbook at these levels competitive? Would screen size alone win out over features?

What x86?

[the_raptor]

The ATOM isn't "x86", and Intel hasn't released a new "x86" for over a decade. The ATOM just interprets x86 machine code into its RISCy real code, just like a Core 2 does. And ATOM has a different performance envelope from the desktop Intel chips for exactly the reason of optimisation for low power.

The ATOM is ridiculously low power, the current generation northbridge is what use the power.

Re:What x86?

[ChunderDownunder]

I do understand that this CPU has been designed for different performance envelope.

The ATOM just interprets x86 machine code into its RISCy real code

So, yes, Atom interprets x86 in hardware. From the hearsay I read here and elsewhere, this x86 -> native RISC has some overhead. I was asking if Intel might achieve further gains by exposing an optimised ISA that didn't require x86 interpretation.

Of course you'd lose Windows compatibility but that mightn't be a concern for MID devices running Linux and other cross-platform kernels such as Darwin (read Mac Pico-ITX/ reborn 'iBook' as netbook)

I'm no hardware guy, so am probably talking nonsense but just an idea. :)

People who mis-use the term "chiclet keyboard"....

[ivan256]

... should be forced to use a PCjr keyboard for a year.

You had to post that AC?

[reiisi]

<shrug />

Every modern x86 CPU interprets x86 bytecode

[tepples]

So, yes, Atom interprets x86 in hardware.

As does every actual x86 chip since the Pentium Pro, II, and III, including everything AMD has made since Athlon. They all decode x86 bytecode to multiple micro-operations on a RISC-style backend.

I was asking if Intel might achieve further gains by exposing an optimised ISA that didn't require x86 interpretation.

Yes: it's called ARM. Intel used to have an ARM license before it sold StrongARM/XScale to Marvell.

Of course you'd lose Windows compatibility but that mightn't be a concern for MID devices running Linux and other cross-platform kernels

You also lose Adobe Flash Player and the JIT version of Sun Java. Case in point: the versions of Flash Player for architectures other than Windows/x86, Linux/x86, Solaris/x86, Mac/x86, and Mac/PPC are pay.

Re:Every modern x86 CPU interprets x86 bytecode

[badkarmadayaccount]

How about separating the hardware interpreter from the actual core? A SPARC/ARM/MIPS with an x86 emulation accelerator chip. Oh, and since compiled is faster than interpreted, why not set it up to compile x86 opcodes to native binary, Amiga/Transmeta style?

Not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

Netbooks will never be ready for the desktop until...

[Come on people, give it a shot.]