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See, one of the fundamental assumptions in our society is that the government is legitimate and that it obeys the rules set out for it. As long as that's true, the government should not be overthrown.

But its not, thats pretty clear to even most people.

The first thing you need to realize is that the people who created our government were smarter than you are. That's nothing to be ashamed of; they were smarter than I am, and smarter than everybody I've ever known. We're talking about once-in-a-millennium minds here.

I'd agree with that, and even they realized that sometimes violent revolution is the only way to fix things. Please note that I'm not saying thats even the case now...my point is that if its illegal to suggest it now it will be illegal to suggest it when it really needs to be.


They concocted a system of government that works under all conditions, past or present. Our system of government has never yet failed. Even when we were in the darkest days of the civil war, when it seemed that our republic might fall, the government stood.

That depends on how you define failure. If you mean its still here...then possibily you are correct. Some would argue however that our current gov't so so far out of tune with what was intended. Currently, we know it NOT to be following its own rules.


Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. But when we become aware of its flaws, the intricate and complex system of checks and balances comes into play and sets things right. The system is self-correcting, and when you really understand it, it's a wonder to behold.

Asking if its perfect is a waste of time; I think most reasonable people would agree you cannot attain perfection. The systems corrections seem to be failing however. This site provides some interesting insight. I've also had similar experiences in traffic court...I have an SSN and licence...but i know exactly what he meant when he said the judge railroaded it. I call traffic court McJustice. Also read his thoughts on case law (which isn't law at all...but judges seem to favor case law even though said cases may have been 'wrong' verdicts).

So to answer your question, the government should not be overthrown. If circumstances ever did arise where it should be -- I'm not convinced that they will --then the question of whether it's legal to say so will be the least of your worries.

I didn't ask if it should be now, or even talk about the US gov't. I said if there is one that SHOULD be, shouldn't the citizens be allowed to talk about it?

You claim our system isn't perfect, yet then claim that it will never need to be overthrown. I suggest you look at history; all governments become corrupt and abusive, its just a matter of time. It naive to think that an imperfect government will last forever.

When you vote someone into office it is their duty to represent the people. The issue is the the representitives are voted in by the majority so sometimes the minority does not have a voice.

And the US gov't was formed to let the minority do as they wish too. Check out this site...some very interesting reading http://www.cjmciver.org/sapf/

No system of government is perfect. Typically it is the majority that controls the decisions.(whether the majority is the number of people, or the number of guns(power/control) one has).

This is true, but some try to be more perfect then others ;-)

The Federal Law that covers this is the 1974 Privacy Act (I might have the year wrong, it's the last major update to the privacy act since it was enacted in the 1930's when the SSA was created).

The Federal Gov't can't even require that you give it for an essetial services or rights. They can for priviledges (including a drivers license). I also believe no gov't agency who receives Federal funding can use it as an identifier.

I believe the IRS can require you to give it to them. However, they can't force you to have one. In fact, it's considered descrimination for any employer who refuses to hire you on the grounds that you don't have an SSN (INS has to love that one). You end up paying into all of the taxes, and your employer has to file all of your tax records special, but it can be done. You can not have an SSN for pretty much your whole life. However, it makes everything significantly more difficult.

Go search around for people who've lived without an SSN. There are several websites that document the trials and tribulations of doing it. You can file for some sort of "Objector" status. The SSA site linked to above mentions it if you look thru enough of the FAQ. They had a story on Slashdot several years ago who lived on the PA/NY border who documented all of it.

I believe this is the web page of the story. He links to several sites that will get you the proper keywords for Google.

Kirby

Oh I'm perfectly aware of that I don't have to provide an SSN. It comes down to, as you said, not doing business with them. Financial institutions and the government are the only people who can require it from what I understand.

There are some really interesting stories online about people getting by without an SSN.

The most famous of which is Neil McIver's story. I think Neil does it for more religious reasons. Mine are purely privacy related. The funny thing is that on the back of your SS card it says that you are responsible for any usage of your SSN. It's hard to be responsible when it's required by everyone under the sun. That's really why I want a definate law on the whole thing. If we are expected and held liable for what happens to our card and number, then we need to be able to do business and function without it.

As a side note, it was voicestream that bought PowerTel. I know because they fucked up the transfer of my powertel account over to VoiceStream. ;)

As to everyone who says you can't get anything without giving out your number, give it a shot sometime. If you are applying for utilities or whatnot, ask to tell the person you are speaking with if it's required. When they tell you it is, ask to speak to a manager. The typical customer (no)service people won't know any better since they work from a computer screen and script but a manager can settle the matter once and for all.

It's mostly possible: http://www.cjmciver.org/free.shtml

Well, if you simply refuse to give out your SSN, most companies (banks and insurance companies excepted) will shrug and move on. They are collecting it simply because most people happily and blithely give it to anyone who asks.

Here's an interesting story on that topic - apparently this man's been mostly successful in his life without an SSN, except for getting a new driver's license.

Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus",

http://www.cjmciver.org/free.shtml