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FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website
sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"
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/dev/null.
I just can't understand why someone running what is apparently a popular site would ever keep logs for more than a very short amount of time?
2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.
I'd comply and say that there are no log files as they are immediately dumped to
Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.
Running a website that is viewed as a "threat" to the government in which the servers reside should have taught the admin (Dave) to know better and not to keep logs of any kind past a short period of time (minutes?) so that a webstats program could be run and the data incorporated and then removed. I don't see why this wasn't followed. I mean my website only averages 1000 hits (not even unique visits) daily over a month and it takes webalizer about three seconds to do what it needs to do.
But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision.
Oh it could have been avoided if the admin took the time to make sure that no such logs were being kept. They can only subpoena what physically exists.
Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.
Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?
While it is probably not long off before logs are required to be kept for, say, ten years by order of the Protectorate, it sure is foolhardy for an isp unpopular with the g00ns to keep more than a day or two of logs.
Once you get the subpoena it's too late to revise your retention policy.
FBI investigating incidents on subdomains hosted by flag.blackened.net.
OK folks, here's the real deal as far as I can share it legally at the moment. Consider it as a press release if you wish and feel free to distribute it for whatever reason you deem necessary.
I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.
I have been ordered to submit IP info on two separate incidents having to do with subdomains hosted on flag. Both of these are in regard to claimed or threatened responsibility for acts of propaganda by the deed. Both incidents involve topics which are completely out of line for consideration here at flag and really I can only view them in two ways. Either people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI, or, as is my belief in one case, they are trying to make flag vulnerable to government intrusion.
At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details.
I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.
Really, I am not left with much of a choice. Here are my two choices as I see them:
1. Do not comply with the wishes of the FBI. This will most likely lead to the seizure of flag and a compromise of all the sites and information online. It will probably also lead to me being imprisoned, I would guess. I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter. There can be no doubt we would probably lose our home as a result.
2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.
Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.
I was first contacted by the Oakland FBI. Many of you know their history. We are talking COINTELPRO for real - not a perceived or mythical fear. They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question. Read the history of their disinformation campaign against the panthers if you don't believe me. The panther comic book which they completed and distributed, the fake letters between Huey and Eldridge, the fires of hatred and murder they faked and inflamed between the panthers and the US or "united slaves" which led to the murder of Bunchy Carter and John Higgins in L.A., the list goes on and on.
But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision. I post this mainly to inform you all and give you opportunity to make your own decisions as to whether I've handl
If Michael was still around he'd probably bend over backwards to help the FBI track down certain anonymous cowards.
The guy is a self-admitted left-extremist who refer to the FBI as the Gestapo.
If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Big Brother needs this information to protect us. Big Brother only has our own best interests in mind. We should all love Big Brother. 21 years ahead of Welles' prediction, but still...
Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
Slashdots logs
for linking to a story about the FBI and Anarchists
"people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI"
"At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details."
"Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner"
"[The Oakland FBI] proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question"
"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."
Either it's the start of the fourth reich, tracking down all the remaining Jedi^Wfreethinkers and killing them, or it's a normal subpoena request for a normal investigation.
I'll go ask Occam and get back to you.
I half-expected an invocation of the Patriot Act on this matter.
Perhaps some convoluted interpretation of Sec. 811 (i.e. "Penalties for terrorist conspiracies") could be applied?
My first thought was: Nothing to see here...
Not a troll, just a thought.
The best way to make the FBI happy is to slashdot the site. Great job! Now I have time to hide my cyanide in the subway rails!
Whenever I read articles like this I think two things:
1. So happy I live in Canada. It could be almost anywhere that isn't the US though. The rampant paranoia there is baffling.
2. So happy I'm on a dynamic IP pool. You want my address? Have it. I'll just cycle mine if I'm ever worried.
The next time the FBI asks for logs they are going to be a LOT bigger due to this story.
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
Slashdot users will certainly make the FBI's job much harder with all that extra traffic. Was this intentional?
steampunk web design
So what? If I owned a little deli, and had a security camera, are those tapes safe from subpeona? If I ran a little telecom, would the phone lines be safe from wiretap orders?
Why should server logs be any different?
So all those sites dedicated to the mullet rocking, Oakley blade wearing (with the pink arms) lifted Toyota minitruck driving, Coors light drinking Americans from the 80's are in big trouble!
Rad.
Totally.
Dude.
That's my armchair proposal for a better America.
--Mike--
chop down a tree you've lubricated with liquid waste products while standing next to it, and cut it into short two foot segments (or half-meter for the rest of the world).
Get a poker, bend it so it spells IP, then start a fire with the sawdust and stick the poker in.
Heat up the poker till it glows, using tree branches and some short tree segments and scrap. Then brand each tree segment with the symbol IP from the poker. Reheat as needed if the poker cools.
Deliver tree segments, aka "Logs", that you can truthfully say are "IP Logs", to Secret Service.
Mission Accomplished! You are now a terrorrorrorrist.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I mean I don't doubt he got the request, but his giving in and what follows is just so much drama:
"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."
No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs. When they come to arrest you, you won't get shot unless you do something stupid, like threaten them with a weapon. They'll just cuff you, read you your rights, and then gather what they came to get.
However, as you stated, he could have avoided the whole thing by just not keeping logs. I've run more than one server that doesn't keep logs, not for secrecy, but because it lacked a lot of storage and it just wasn't imporant to log what kind of access happened.
And now that you posted the links to the website all the slashdotters who visit the link will come under FBI scrutiny. Wait a minute, nobody RTFA anyway. My bad, carry on! :)
I like the link to the site we can go to so our IPs can be listed on these logs :)
"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."
For some reason, I think there is more truth there than most of us would like to believe or admit.
I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".
I have a friend who worked undercover investigating racist groups and he said he would look around the room and try to figure out who was connected to which agency. For all they knew, they ALL were cops.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
The Anarchist FAQ seemed very slow... Is the FBI behind the Slashdot effect?
DON'T....
KEEP...
LOGS....
Quite seriously, have a watchdog-type timer purge the records after a day or so. Chances are, anyone good enough to crack your well-maintained and patched box and do some nastys is going to be smart enough to mask his true ip-idetifiable location, and the user information can be kept safe.
Sites like this, along with, say, Anti-Microsoft sites are, as of yet, under no obligation to keep logs of who is posting. Allowing the FBI or other agencies access to this type of information is a recipe for misuse.
One has to wonder what would have happened if the British had such draconian measures in place say around the 1770s. Would they have locked up Ben Franklin for printing Thomas Paine's "Common Sense," and "The Rights of Man?"
Any regime (which is what the current administration has turned into) that cannot allow free speech should not be allowed to stand. Or at least I believe that's what Patrick Henry might say in this situation.
Or possibly a lot smaller after being relocated to /dev/null, as several people have suggested...
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Notice they aren't after him, they just wants logs about others that have come there.
The problem is, with extremist sites like that, you'll get some who are a little more extremist than most. Maybe you are a group of anarchists that really do believe in no government. You believe in real, total anarchy. However, you don't believe in using violence to being that about, you aren't THAT extreme. Government will leave you be, you aren't breaking any laws.
Well guess what? Sooner or later someone who IS extreme to the point that they want to use violence will show up. That will draw the intrest of the government. It is illegal to try to violently overthrow the government, make no mistake.
Well if noe or more of these people hangs around your site, you shouldn't be supprised if the government wants information on them.
Now maybe this is just harassment by the FBI, but I'd actually bet not. There are plenty of sites out there that are anti-government. I'm betting this is a real request to try and find some people for an investigation. Maybe it's just fishing, but still. The operators drama aside, it sounds like all they did was ask for the IPs that are behind some posts. I don't really see the problem.
That complete paranoids like this one simply don't leave the country instead of perpetually living in fear that they will be assassinated at any moment.
Forwards, certainly. But not backwards...
You know, what actually worries me more than the FBI's asking for server logs is the fact that (seemingly) every time something like this happens, a "gag order" is placed on the affected parties. It's a serious breach of the constitutional rights people enjoy; not only the right to free speech is affected, but also things like due process. A state which gathers evidence in secret is well on its way to a state that holds trials in secret, and THAT certainly is something none of us (here on Slashdot, anyway) want, no matter how we may disagree on other matters.
And of course, there is the fact that (like always) there does not even seem to be a good reason to place a gag order, short of "people aren't gonna like this and we want to avoid bad press"; I can see why the FBI wants to err on the (for them) "safe" side, but I think it's a dangerous path to take, for the reasons described above.
Oh well. I guess it just shows again that as a webmaster, you should not keep logs for longer than is absolutely necessary, and that as a user, you should use Tor or a similar tool to anonymise your browsing if you're visiting political websites (I wonder if Slashdot counts as one).
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
These methods to deal with information are used by totalitarian governments to monitor and suppress any opposition and are familiar from the Nazi regime, except that the internet did not exist back then.
I thought we are a democratic country that respects the constitutional rights of its people - am I wrong?
Is there a real court order here, or is this just an FBI letter?
Great. Now when the FBI seizes THEIR logs, they're gonna find my IP. Thanks.
Step 1: Run anarchist website
...
Step 2: Draw the ire of the US government
Step 3:
Step 4: Acquire wealth and spread it equally among the proletariat!
So dumb.
If someone trusted the FBI and then, in a horrible act of betrayal, had their logs seized, I would be sympathetic. But these are the very kind of people that should have known better (or at least believed better), and it was within their power to not keep logs -- to prevent the existance of any seizably information.
This dude is advertising, to the whole world, that he is careless and doesn't practice what he preaches. Thanks for the entertainment.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
.. if this had anything to do with their ongoing investigation with the Red Lake HS school shooting. This is the FBI's first full investigation of a school shooting since it occurred on a Native American Reservation.
For all we know, it could be an excuse for them to justify their "demand"
"The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
I had a really good response but it was too extreme and since I don't want trouble I'll keep it to myself.
I for one welcome our freedom hating overlords...
Get your Unix fortune now!
It's not uncommon to read posts that suggest that having a policy of deleting logs regularly might be prudent.
I was thinking that an extra measure of protection would be to add a script to automatically delete all logs as soon as any FBI phone number appears in the caller-id of an incoming phone call. The application could use a black(-ops;)-list of known phone numbers, exchanges and id strings for lawyers, organizations or agencies that are privacy challenged to check against for automatic deletion... hey, they keep black lists, why shouldn't privacy threatened groups?
The key question is, however, whether such a thing would be legal or interpreted as obstruction of justice? Having a policy of frequent deletion as a means of limiting exposure to privacy challenges doesn't seem to be a problem, but my proposed script might be. It might be possible to argue that before an actual request is received that preemptive deletion is not any different than frequent deletion. INAL, so I don't know, but it might be interesting to see what the courts think.
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
Calling them a group with NO constitutional authority and a dismal history would be more accurate.
You are confusing Anarchy and Communism. It should be:
Step 4: Buy a compound with profit and stockpile weapons!
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Whenever the investigation is closed they end, or when the trial is concluded if the investiagation results in trial. Thing is people on /. as well as elsewhere have FAR too short attetion spans to keep up on that. Criminal investigations are often a very slow process. Legal processes are slow. I'm involved in a lawsuit right now, and papers were filed like 6 months ago. Nothing to speak of has happened since then, and it could be a year more before something does.
So if you want to know about these cases, you need to keep up on it. Get the details about it (there will be public infromation form the court, even if the details are sealed) and then check back on status. Eventually the matter will either be dropped or a trial will happen. After that, check the public records.
No one here has a clue what the FBI wants with the info but everyone is yammering on about how unfair and bad it is.
god forbid they are legitamately attempting to find out who someone else is and the trail happened to lead to that server.
but no one can think rationally here.
just keep up with the standard sheepish line "government evil, fbi bad"
Step 4: Acquire wealth and spread it equally among the proletariat!
He's and anarchist, not a communist, he may or may not care anything about anyone else.
Hurry and get your IP listed now!
Good gravy...
--RIAmAses! Let my MP3ople go!
So what? The Nmap guys have been subpoena'd for web logs before, too. What's the big deal here? The site is still up.
The man's an anarchist who ironically enjoys the freedoms granted in this country (granted by the government).
Maybe it's a vast conspiracy against everyone on the site! Put on your tinfoil hats, folks! I blame bush! Nothing like this ever happened under clinton!
step 1: Post an article on slashdot
step 2: sit back and watch "radical website" grind to a halt
step 3: drink coffee and pat yourself on the back
The Answer
...lawful as long as the state is not in constitutional compliance.
Step 4: Buy a compound with profit and stockpile weapons!
No no you're confusing Anarchism with Christian Cultists
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
from my radical bunghole!
The admin (by way of his post about what happened) post is obviously a delusional paranoid nutcase. Yes maybe the FBI/CIA /government has done "bad" things in the past....but this guy is just retarded and completely out of touch with reality.
Please turn over your logs to confirm that you did, in fact, keep it to yourself.
I find people like this amusing, they keep "fighting the man" or claim other "radical views" and yet when it comes down to it they cave in instantly. If you belive in something then be prepared to make sacrifices for your views since words are cheap.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/24/characters/jack_bauer .shtml
- i found this post highly amusing
- i am going to do all my correspondence in point form from now on
- it is fantastic
If safeguards are put in place to preserve anarchy, along with methods to enforce such safeguards, would it still be anarchy?
Is anarchy truly "the will of the people"? If so, could they decide they don't want anarchy any more? If not, is it still anarchy?
It seems to be an anti-entropic effect. A government could always flow away from true anarchy, but never toward it. Given that any existing government usually has safeguards to prevent changes to the core system, then it appears that the only way to convert any currently existing government to anarchy would be violent revolution. Thus, it seems the only way to preserve perpetual anarchy would be a constant state of violent revolution.
Considering the number of violent revolutions that have occured in the past, especially during the time when the idea of anarchy was so wildly popular among so many, why was there not one successful implementation of a truly anarchistic society?
My personal view is that the framers of our constitution considered these issues, and they chose the best combination of democracy and self-perpetuating government.
"The unicode stuff in the latest version is working fabulously well. My russian mafia friends are ecstatic."
He averted a mess by complying. flag would've been taken down if he claimed to not have logs, period. Dave doesn't keep logs for long, though, but he provided recent ones because he had them.
Coral Cache's copy
.nyud.net:8090 to a URL
Click Here
is working fairly well (better than original link) as of the time of this post. It's going up and down because it's having to start caching when the original link is already fairly crippled.
Just add
BEFORE YOU POST IT TO SLASHDOT!!!
and it will be loaded into the cache.
The earlier you do this, the earlier it will start/finish caching, and the faster it will be for all of us.
Okay, so I'm not an anarchist, but isn't there a slight irony in that an anarchist and pro-anarchist website is being forced to do what the governments asks of them? Last I checked, anarchy was about the absense of government...
Mod parent up.
Have you metaroderated recently?
The objections?:
-requirement for internal travel documents "your papers please"
-"blacklisting" dissidents (no-fly list?)
-secret searches (Brandon Mayfield in Portland?)
-forced medical procedures (or lack of care)
-voting irregularities
-lack of "due process" (Guantanamo Bay, sending suspects to egypt for "questioning")
-"watchers" at libraries, places of public assembly
But these days, it seems the US government is a bigger violator of human rights than the soviets ever were. A noble experiment in democracy destroyed by an arrogant few who have constructed a system to protect themselves and their petty fiefdoms from the citizenry who demand accountability.
Where I used to be a flag-waving patriot when I was a USMC Fighter Pilot, I no longer feel that way. I look at our own government as more dangerous than Saddam Hussein, Osama BinLaden, North Korea, Iran and the rest.
I look at virtually every government project in the same way I look at Saddam's statues of himself...an exercise in self-aggrandisment for those behind the project, that if it benefits even a single citizen, it's by accident, not by intent.
I almost believe the "conspiracy theorists" who claim that the government knew about Oklahoma City and 9-11 ahead of time....because if the terrorists had instead hit Congress, the FBI, the IRS and the Supreme Court, it would be hard to rally people against them. They could have killed 2 birds with one stone.
It really is sad to think this nation has deteriorated so far and that citizens have allowed their rights to be eroded to such an extent that they have all but been rendered incapable of making any meaningful change in government short of violence.
Russia today is stunning proof that the crooks and gangsters are more honest and reliable than the politicians. Maybe we need a dose of their sort of revolution in this country?
If something doesn't happen here, instead of being like 1970s Soviet Union, US citizens will end up being treated by this government like jews in 1940's Germany. Other than the ovens, little separates us from that today.
Who gets to decide when communications are dangerous to the state? Are these measures being taken under the Patriot act? Is there no due-process of law involved for this search and seisure? Is there no line drawn at all between our rights and freedoms and the whim of the state?
What does our constitution and bill of rights have to do with the state of existence in the USA today if they are blatantly ignored by the government when it suites them?
If this is really where we are, then we should at least stop pretending. Let's at least admit openly that we no longer have constitutionally protected rights. Perhaps, more accurately, we no longer have those rights with respect to the state. It appears that they are still enforced when the state isn't the one tresspassing on them. But let's stop beating around the bush, let's call a turkey a turkey.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
Seriously, it boggles the mind why 1) An "anarchist" website would bother to keep logs in the first place, and 2) Why anybody would post anti-government rhetoric from a traceable IP address!
Am I the only one around that assumes that any website encouraging unlawful behaviour is probably part of a law enforcement sting operation? Even when I walked into "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" and the man behind the counter launched into a half-hour rant against the government and showed me his pen-gun concealed on his keychain, my only thought was "this nut-job act could only have one purpose: to try to entrap me into asking for something illegal. I'll have to be extra careful not to imply that I want an illegal firearm!" (by the way, 'Honest Don' was an ex-cop who did a booming business selling pyrotechnic devices to law enforcement, and even had a parking space out front reserved for police. Not exactly the kind of place you would expect to find anti-government activists!)
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Because of the gag order, it seems he can't say what the people whose IP addresses the FBI is demanding did.
I've said it before in a previous post and I'll say it again. "freedom of Speech" is not absolute. Just check your local noise ordinances or "disturbing the peace laws". Let's not forget the following forms of illegal speech...
It's sad that this guy is the one who has to pony up info to the FBI, in violation of his principles, but the safe harbor laws only extend so far. Just because he is granted certain protections from legal liability over what happens in his public forum, that does not mean he is exempt from subpoena to turn over information about them if they should do something illegal in his public forum.
Now, if the gag order comes off, and the matter seems totally spurious, then it seems more like harrassment by the FBI. But if what these users did was pretty f'ed up, then such is life. Responsibility goes hand in hand with rights and privileges.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
Some users of the so-called "radical websites" have issued this terse press release:
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.
You're a good little citizen, aren't you? These guys disagree with the gov't, so they deserve what they get huh? Fuck you. Nobody deserves to have the FBI snooping around their computers unless you're planning on committing, say, mass murder. So fuck you and your group think. Nobody in the US should have to worry about what they say. That's what this country is founded on. Free speech without fear of reprisal. So again, fuck you.
I don't respond to AC's.
See, the situation was that the list I was on lost its server, and since one of the folks worked with the blackened.net site, it got picked up there. So, the administrator gets on the list to talk and stuff, and eventually manages to offend everyone on it, namely by verbally abusing those (including myself) who thought it not prudent to call those folks that joined the military due to financial/social hardships "fascists", "murderers", and the like. See the below:
This eventually ended up with him signing off the list in disgust with this particularly apt email:
Well, so much for the "stand behind the barricades" part.
Don't think a dynamic IP is a silver bullet in any way
Any basic weblog consists of a timestamp of your HTTP request, plus your ip, and the page you requested
If they so wanted, they can get IP assignment information based on time from your ISP
There's no way to hide...
(Posting AC because I don't care about Karma(Slashdot Karma anyway))
fbi: where are the logs?
dave: don't keep them
fbi: really?
dave: nope
fbi: oh, well, okay
fbi to judge: he "doesn't keep logs" on his radical site
judge: oh his "radical site"?
fbi to judge: yeah, funny huh?
judge: seize his shit!
fbi to dave: hi dave, we are here to get your shit
dave: oh shit
dave did the logical thing
We do not live on a playground. Freedom of speech is not something that exists only in the sandbox. When we say something really mean, the state is not a watchful parent who should step in and pull us aside for a stern talking to.
That's the attitude a lot of people seem to take. "Oh, they were playing for real, so the FBI had to make them stop."
Liberty is either respected or it is not. The realpolitik guys will say "only when it's expedient". The libertarians will say, "all the time regardless". The Democrats and Republicans will say, "as long as you play nice", and that's the government we've got.
The government has to follow the rules all the time. They can't break them just because we're playing "for keeps"*.
*though of course actually they can, and do, and people expect them to. so they'll keep doing it.
Let's not forget the following forms of illegal speech...
You forgot slashdotting. Not quite inciting to riot, but it's kind of the same. I've heard people say obscenities when it happens to their servers.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I really do strongly recommend checking out Tor. Even if you don't plan on using it regularly, running the server process will greatly increase the effectiveness of the network as a whole.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply." Take the bullet.
in soviet russia the logs delete you.
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
in neat labelled forums nonetheless, can hardly be described as -anarchist-, but he.
I also feel anything labeled anarchism, is not nessicary -radical-. Its just an ideal, or ideology if you will.
I can't believe how many people post comments in pure ignorance, claiming that the Feds are out to silence everyone, and no one is allowed to express himself for fear of retribution. I've gone around my entire life saying and doing pretty much whatever i want, criticising the U.S. government, my elected representatives, police forces, etc. I've owned and fired guns on my own property and on the property of others. I have read any website that i wanted to read, and i've posted any time i felt the urge. I have travelled overseas and back, and across U.S. borders and back in my car. I've had quite alot of freedom, both online and in real life, freedom that is protected by the United States Constitution and government agencies and officials.
I know that the vast majority of people are idiots and think they should be able to do whatever they want to do, including protesting by blocking traffic and inhibiting local businesses, as well as inciting violence. I have news for those people: Your rights end where another's rights begin. I'll grant that you have the freedom to swing your arms as a form of self-expression, as long as you don't do so in the general direction of my face, knocking out several teeth in the process. That's what it means to put limits on freedom. If you don't like it, move to Western Europe. Better yet, move to Cuba. That should give you some sense of contrast. Hopefully, you'd find that there is a balance to be struck between freedom and responsibility, or between freedom and security.
Furthermore, the feds and government officials aren't attempting to suppress free speech; in fact, they appreciate people being able to express themselves. Talking rationally about issues is much preferred to the violent solutions that might be enacted were we not able to do so.
There's a good chance that someone will pick out a single sentence from this post and ridicule the notion contained therein, like the idea of putting limits on freedom. How horrible -- the majority of the people have elected officials who have, in turn, passed laws, and the executive branch now enforces them. What a terrifying way to effect a social contract by which people give up some potential freedoms in order to protect life and property. If you don't understand these basic principles of modern democracy, please go back to school and take a 9th or 10th grade government class.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: That averages about 660,000,000 of each kind.
I don't understand why people intentionally subject themselves to risks they don't need. What's especially strange is that this radical forum, which probably counts the FBI among its enemies or at least among its threats, would decide to give the FBI a helping hand by keeping logs. It like they want to hurt themselves.
It is bad enough that the FBI is out to murder him, but now the Slashdot effect takes down his servers. You're all in on it, aren't you?
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
All this does is reveal what an astonishingly ignorant person you are, both about the USA and the Soviet Union.
It really is sad to think this nation has deteriorated so far and that citizens have allowed their rights to be eroded to such an extent that they have all but been rendered incapable of making any meaningful change in government short of violence.
The current government in power is the one the majority voted for. What's the problem again? Is this some conspiracy theory comment?
If something doesn't happen here, instead of being like 1970s Soviet Union, US citizens will end up being treated by this government like jews in 1940's Germany. Other than the ovens, little separates us from that today.
I wondered when you were going to get to your little Nazi comment. OK. 10,000,000th inappropriate Nazi comparison noted and placed in circular file.
Seriously, if you think we are one step from the ovens, you need serious psychological help. You are delusional to the point where I would be uncomfortable being in the same room with you unless you were restrained somehow, or I was armed.
I am NOT kidding here. Get yourself into some mental health program as soon as you can. This is coming from someone who hates Bush and all he has done, but if you are at the point of imagining the US in the grip of the equivalent of Nazism, you have completely disconnected from reality. Your whole post reeks of persecution complexes and being in a massive disassociative event.
...are emblematic of the times or more to the point, their growing number is. When they whine about speech what they are really whining for is a world with no reprocussions for their actions.
Basic to the very concept of good and evil is that we have free will to choose our actions and paths through life and only by this can anything be judged one way or another. That which is compulsory as with a machine has no evil or goodness to it. It just is. Like a nearby star going nova and wiping out all life on Earth. Act of nature, G-d, whatever.
These so-called radicals always want to throw stones at the government and big business and so on and apply the term "evil" but they never take any responsibility for what they do, only credit. Free will doesn't work that way. Your actions have consequences and speech requires action to convey it.
Generally, most speech doesn't have reprocussions of an immediately actionable criminal or civil nature, but sometimes it does. Like telling someone to go some place to set them up to be murdered, or agreeing not to disclose classified documents and then doing so, or what have you.
He and his fellow poseurs lack the courage of their supposed convictions.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
Thanks to the /. effect the hard drive got burned along with the rest of the hardware. :)
No more logs for you
Stop making that big face!
US: You can say whatever you want. We support your rights. [ silently pulls plugs ... claims terrorists lurk there ... etc.. ]
China: You can only say things that we like.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
So does he post a bittorrent link to a tar.gz backup file of his whole site so we can all keep a copy?
Nooooooo!
Get with it dude!
Probably 100MB or less.
First thing he should have done is get an offshore server for his content.
man alive do you yuppies ever kill our meager bandwidth when you surf at work.
my response, without reading any of the responses here, but knowing full well what they say in advance:
Ever reviled, accursed, ne'er understood,
Thou art the grisly terror of our age.
"Wreck of all order," cry the multitude,
"Art thou, and war and murder's endless rage."
O, let them cry. To them that ne'er have striven
The truth that lies behind a word to find,
To them the word's right meaning was not given.
They shall continue blind among the blind.
But thou, O word, so clear, so strong, so pure,
Thou sayest all which I for goal have taken.
I give thee to the future! Thine secure
When each at least unto himself shall waken.
Comes it in sunshine? In the tempest's thrill?
I cannot tell--but it the earth shall see!
I am an Anarchist! Wherefore I will
Not rule, and also ruled I will not be!
'Anarchy' by John Henry Mackay
I'm surprised that someone with such a low userID would think that the anarchist cookbook had anything to do with anarchism.
Wikileaks, no DNS
bet there are thousands of slashdot.com referrers in the sites logs now
--Sir_-_Jeff--
You may remember a Dan Baas who was busted for "hacking" into Acxiom. Take my word for it that IRC logs which he kept on his home computer are what drove that investigation forward from a minor charge to a felony. People really need to think about what data they are retaining and why.
"Anarchist decides anarchy is too hard, returns to capitalist life style."
-Rick
So everyone has gotten done bitching about how he should have not kept logs and so forth.
What are YOUR best practices for running an anarchist/revolutionary website. You could rotate your logs into the bit bucket.. but what residue could that leave behind.
Do any hosting companies provide loopback encryption or bestcrypt container support?
v4sw6PU$hw6ln6pr4F$ck 4/6$ma3+6u7LNS$w2m4l7U$i2e4+7en6a2X h
look at the politicians names now, and then look at the politicians names in the 60's/70's you might be suprised how many names you recognize
whats equally suprising is how soon the population forget and vote them in year on year, half of the administration isn't fit to be stacking shelves in costco,
HE is not responsible for what is posted on his Web site by other idiots.
OTOH, HE is not responsible if the FBI forces him to reveal what is posted on his Web site.
Any anarchist who thinks BLIND resistance - on his part or anyone else's - is the only course of action is an idiot. When the cops have a gun to your head (figuratively or otherwise) you do what you have to do to survive. If you do, do what you can against them later. Getting yourself arrested or killed for no effective result is just stupid.
We can complain that he should not have kept logs. Well, as has been pointed out by numerous others, if he hadn't that doesn't necessarily mean he or his systems would be in the clear. Therefore, it's irrelevant that he kept logs.
Anybody posting legally liable material on his board from a traceable IP address is an idiot, anyway. So who cares about logs? He might as well keep them.
Most so-called "anarchists" in this country are "armchair anarchists" anyway. I did eight years on a nine year sentence for armed bank robbery because I finally decided to give up armchair anarchism. Well, it didn't work out - it could have, to some degree, had I started with better resources, but it didn't. This does not validate or invalidate my approach, nor does it validate armchair anarchism.
But any armchair anarchist critizing this guy for having to turn over Web logs is just that.
He did what he had to do, he's not happy about it, and he's revealing as much as he can about it. That's fine by me.
The real assholes are those who tried to incriminate this guy (if that's what they were trying to do) and the FBI itself. And I wouldn't be surprised if the two are one and the same - posting criminal material on a dissident site and then busting the site for "evidence" is an obvious Fed trick which has no doubt been used before and will be used again. Federal courts have determined that the FBI did worse against the American Indian Movement for years, so this would be no surprise.
As for "free speech", anybody remember the posters the FBI spread around Harlem back in the sixties trying to rile blacks up against "Jews" like Abbie Hoffman the FBI didn't like?
Hey, FBI! Me Transhumanist. You Fed.
Fuck you.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Woman who killed baby will be sterilized watchers
citizencorps
it would be interesting to find a document from the cold war days and go point by point and fill it in.
tin hat aside, i am quite sure the u.s. has passed the tipping point for a fascist state. my opinion is based less on the fact that there is a "evil entity" but more out of the observation the base of the economy is shrinking for and you have more and more displaced people. people say with innovation there are new opportunities. i realize that computational theory is not a hot topic on ./ but i think otherwise forget
moore's law look up
"church's thesis",
hint we are computational processes too. connect the dots and you will see why
bill gates is the richest person in the world "he who controls the spice rules the world."
fast forward another 10 years; there are are prob. 100k coders/chip makers who create the digital stuff that runs most of the world ... people 100k in the argi-business feeding most
of the world ... run through the top 10 industries you cover pretty much all what we need for
civilization ... dunno what you are going to need the other 6 billion for, the mean green
fighting machine or maybe just solvent green.
so me thinks : you have to keep people in check somehow; prisons : dept of corrections, tv : csi , dhs : terrorist in your cereal etc.. bravo we have a fascist state. the question now for me is how far will it go.
time to take my pills, lets see the blue on or the red one
guess i can afford both, i forgot i moved to canada 4 years ago ... after 2 years of protesting
and people not getting it ... shortly after the coronation of king george ii and people still not
getting it ... so long suckas. guess it pays to be a person of conscience or a rabble rouser in
fascist speak or a terrorist in new fascist speak ... i forget.
smash the state : [black-n-red]
To quote a character in Batman: Year One:
"Once a man becomes a father he is never truly free."
Sure, this guy could burn the servers, spend several years in jail, emerge as an ex-con and therefore virtually unemployable (and likely hep/HIV+ cosidering what jails are like), for his beliefs. That would be the true Anarchist thing to do... and it would cause misery for his spouse and child (and parents, and other relatives, and friends). Could YOU make that choice, "Rakishi"? I doubt it. Not many have the strength to ruin three lives for a political ideal. So don't be too freaking "amused" by this.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Just have an old school high speed chain/band printer and about 20,000 pages on backup. When you get subpenoed, run off the logs in binary and turn it in.
Signed, sealed, and delivered. Best of all, you can swear that those records are accurate and haven't been tampered with. You could even print out additional checksums in binary just to prove it.
Yeah, but all they'll get out of the law suit is Fecal Troll Matter
I don't like the shift in America. It disturbs me greatly. The chances of anything changing for the better are so remote, though, as to not be worth bothering with. People simply won't change until they absolutely, truly, irrevocably want to so bad that they can't do anything else. That's not going to happen soon, and may not happen this century.
"Do Not Feed The Trolls" is as important when dealing with autocrats and theocrats as it is when dealing with online folk. Politicians are trolls - except those who are Gelatinous Cubes - and Government agents are troglodytes. Feeding them is a very bad idea.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Not so. Disks are never allowed to leave classified areas in my experience, without physical destruction. They are wiped per DOD prior to leaving the project, and destroyed (melted down) prior to leaving the site. You NEVER return hardware to manufacturers in classified situations.
This is VERY good policy but in the (dream) world of 100% trust and security, wiping the hard disks would be a waste of time -- just toss them in the furnace/forge/foundary/whatever and let 'em melt!
this morning i was thinking about how great the internet is, how anyone can say whatever they want regardless of how asinine or idiotic it is. i guess i was wrong. Freedom of speech should allow people to say whatever they want, which includes anarchist, neo-nazis and yes even religious fundamentalists. you can't just prevent people from having opinions because they don't agree with you.
I tried to be an anarchist for a while, but couldn't do it, any more than I could be a libertarian.
Wikileaks, no DNS
Jeez, people scurring around the law to prove this is ok, that is not. What if some think the laws are fucked? What if some wish to voice that and stand against these ever-changing laws which are writtenpurely for the benefits of the few in power? Fuck the laws, screw the FBI and their scare tactics. I say stand up against his current trend of some to bully those into following corrupt laws.
If you are going to run such a controversial website then why keep logs at all?
if any of you had bothered to look, you would have seen that he does NOT keep web logs - he purges them. IPs are embedded in the forum posts - as a function of the software - but you'll note it's not forum posts the fbi is following up on - it's something related to one of flag's "subdomains," by which i think they mean other domains hosted on the same computer known as flag.
the IPs in question were used by persons who violated the hosting TOS by making claims related to propaganda by the deed - forbidden on flag or any of it's hosted domains.
and if you had read the press release, you would have noticed that his chocies were:
1) give up the ip, keep his server up, stay out of jail
or
2) give up the ip (via confiscation), lose the server which serves his community, and go to jail.
in other words, he made absolutely the right choice - the FBI gets the least amount of info possible, AND the server stays up.
all of you know full well that the government ALREADY HAS this info - they can record it at will using carnivore, echelon, or whatever name they want to give to their surveilance.
they simply want to lean on a dissident website. THAT'S the point - whether you are sympathetic to anarchism or not.
at home, and an infant daughter.
he's compromised his word for sake of his honor to those he loves.
i think he made the right call, and its definitely the one id make. besides, he also says the decision is spurred by concern for his family; he couldnt care less about prison.
Scenario: a dog you've never met before is in front of you, unaccompanied by anyone. Do you assume it is safe to treat it like the majority of dogs?
I forget what 8 was for.
They had no illusions that Britan would just roll over and say "Ok, go ahead, setup a new government." They knew the government would try to put them down, with vilence if necessary, adn they were prepared to resist, with violence if necessary. They won, so they got to have their way.
Now look at another case, the American Civil War. The South did the same thing that the colonies had done: they declared independence from a nation they pervieced to be opressors. They felt that the North was unfairly imposing their way of life on them, and so they left. This again lead to violence, but the breakaways lost in this case, and so they had to do as the government said.
You can believe the government is unjust and needs to be brought down, and you can believe that to be a perfectly righetous cause, etc, but do not delude yourself into thinking that means the government should stand aside. It's still against the law.
DigiShaman finds a Wand of Vague Allusion.
DigiShaman successfully casts Boast Spray.
DigiShaman has gained +3 CReD(ibility).
BONUS: DigiShaman is officially hardcore!
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
And that's fine, but I get tired of people who seem to think you should be allowed to plot to violently bring down the government, and they shoudl just stand aside and let you do it. No, not so much. Because either way you look at it, it's the worngthing for the government to do:
Assuming your cause is just, and the government really is a corrupt dictatorship that opresses the people, they'll want to KEEP it that way, and thus want to put down your revolution.
Assuming your cause is unjust, and the government is one that approximates the will of the people, then it's the government's duty to protect the people and thier wishes by protecting itself from a group trying to impose their will through force.
Either way, you are breaking the law. Now perhaps you feel that's justified and necessary, but don't think that means that the government should leave you alone.
If I remember correctly, it requires specific bit patterns (depending on the controller), to render the strongest signal from an HD's write heads.
So the anarchist faq got slashdotted.
/.ers reading it are taking mirrors, 'coz anyone who wants to keep the faq alive can't read it for toffee now...
Hope some of the legions of
Who's next?
I forget what 8 was for.
Terrorist attacks on Americans have increased substantially since the Iraq invasion. The scale of the attacks hasn't been that of 9/11, but pre-9/11 the only large scale domestic attack I can recall is the Oklahoma City bombing. I don't think there are any other domestic attacks of similar scale in recent history so, not nearly enough time has passed to make a call.
Why the hell do you want to do a "press release", especially if you think some nut is going to cap you? If you're going to cooperate then why the hell are you going to shout it out to the world?
Sheesh.
Ring ring. Ring ring.
: Hey. FYI, I'm ratting you guys out to the Feds. : Yeah. Just though you guys ought to know. They're meeting me at Denny's in an hour. : Thanks. : Oh yeah, I wondered where that was. Listen, mind if I swing by to pick it up on the way to Denny's? : See you in a few minutes.
Mafia Buttonman: Hello?
Rat
Mafia Buttonman: Uh-huh. Is that right?
Rat
Mafia Buttonman: Oh. Well, okey-dokey. Best of luck with that.
Rat
Mafia Buttonman: Oh hey, you forgot your jacket at the thing the other day.
Rat
Mafia Buttonman: Sure, no problem.
Rat
Click.
Scene.
Freedom is not absolute. It never is. The old saying that "your freedom to swing your fist ends at my face" is as good a way of explaining it as any.
But has long-term freedom ever proven to survive?
In other words... does the frreedom to swing eventually always get eliminated in favor of the few times when someone swings too far.
The founding fathers of the USA debated this... but we have all lost our way on this debate.
He's right, being a murderer because you need money doesn't make it ok. Killing innocent people is wrong no matter who tells you to do it, or why you listen to them.
"But you frankly have no idea what the FBI is going after this site for. I guarantee you it's not for talking trash about the President or [...] It's got to be something a fuck of a lot more substantial, and you know it..."
So, which is it? Either he "knows it" or he has "no idea", you can't have it both ways. Fact is you're just you're just making a differnt assumption than he is, but you don't *know* you're right anymore than he does. Calm down and think before you start running off at the mouth with a knee-jerk response.
Please set me as a foe.
deus does not exist but if he does
It really won't be long until we are all labeled terrorists by the huge, swelling, religious right.
Terrorism? Yeah, it's the only way sometimes.
Sometimes you are driven to it.
Get your Unix fortune now!
What always amuses me is how a regime that was founded by violence and bloodshed over 200 years ago, now fears the same thing happening to them, and for the same reasons, despite the fact that the same "founding fathers" (Thomas Jefferson?) considered it the duty of every American to do so. I'm not sure of the exact quote but it referred to the repeated requirement for "the blood of patriots". Can a USian help me here?
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
In a free and democratic society, if the government violates your rights, you can go to the press to draw attention to the issue. You are also allowed to give enough information so that people can come to their own conclusions.
Have them gag on this:
...
"Gag orders should have ANTI-GAGS"
(I sort of had ideas of how to anti-gag a gag order, legally, and hopefully fairly efficiently...)
Anyone worried and wanting to tip off their site visitors to a possible gag order could just post a counter on their site, sort of like employer safety stats:
We have gone XXX (number) days without having been served a subpoena for:
Category:
1.
2.
3.
4.
which would require the site operator to manually upadate the numbers and to positively push the button to commit the site refreshing. If you refuse to do that, then all concerned could presume the site or its records are under some sort of subpoena.
When the site isn't updated, then the users can legitimately "start shitting", and if the government "puts a gun to your head" to falsely update your site, THEN it will be more criminal than just inspecting or "subpoenaing" your equipment.
---
Probably, the best advice is just to:
-- be on your best behavior
-- ALWAYS assume logs are being kept
-- ALWAYS assume you've been watched for longer than you think
-- Keep things in some sort of non-threatening context or perspective
-- THINK about what you say or write and be able to BACK IT UP
If you can to those and a few other things, you can possibly avoid having the anvil being on your head or feet or the proverbial (or literal) "swift kick in the ass"...
Now, when I had a plan for an internet cafe, I envisioned and put into the pending Articles of Incorportion (yes, if the state refuses to take them over counter, then put them into the charter or bylaws, and any other legal documents...AND then refile/restate your articles to force them to take them later...) I was to place above, or next to, all the computers:
-- Be on your best behavior
-- Assume the computers are being tapped by not just crackers and foreigners, but the US FBI and other domestic and related agencies
-- You have permission to ask us to supervise your taking apart of the keyboards and computers if downtime is there and won't affect the customers
-- you have permission to mag/rf/optical/microwave sweep the premises and tell us what you find (just don't wreck anything
As far as the business goes, I would opt to not use plastic or rubber keyboard covers, and therefore, at random I could toss or smash or inspect at whim or leisure any computer device on my premises, and, AND
IFFF I found something that did not belong there, I would immediately and in full-press image and distribute the images of suspicious items. I have NO obligation to assume it is only a domestica "intelligence" agency that would "compromise" my facility, nor do I have to assume that ANY spook sinewing in my gear has permission of mine. So, rather than get into arguments, just be pre-emptive. Now, when the government starts writing "anti-advance-circumvention" laws, we KNOW we're in DEEP SHIT. The best thing, then, would be to en masse quit using technology to the point that ALL that fancy sniffing gear sits idle, with nothing to do, meaning tax support for it would dry up, and agents would be unemployed like soooo many others who need paychecks as bad as them...
I make these assertions because virtually ANYTHING a spook agency (foreign or domestic) needs to or ought to make best efforts to discover in the electromagnetic spectrum what can be found by microwave, optical, or other electronic equipment AT THE GODDAM DEMARC, and NOT force or extend their apparatus onto shop owners, and not sneak into their equipment.
Alternatives to confiscating businesses' and individual's computers could and OUGHT to include federal prohibition on confiscations of data storage devices. Why? The goverment, via our taxes, makes, specs, or collects and operates a SHITLOAD of technical wizardry devices, and at the VERY LEAST out to be a bit more sensitive and polite about wreaking havoc upon
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
This is yet another reason for web users to routinely use anonymizing overlay networks like Tor. Why depend on the site operator when you can solve the problem on your end?
.. With just a touch of garlic.... I hear they make nice linings for my bike leathers, too.
Dipshit. And I guess they won't ask where the hell the hard drive went? That'll get you an obstruction conviction. I imagine that's worse than refusing the subpoena.
YANAL.
It repels bears...
Q.
Insert Signature Here
...America is a great and free nation. Just don't compare us to any other western nation...
eat shiat and bark at the moon
I guess if my suggestions are the basis of updated civil rights groups cases, then some attorneys would be "AGOG"... 'anti-gag-order-gag', but then some of us might be slain like "Agag"...
(bad attempts at a gag gog, or an agog gag... gaak...)
David Syes
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
reminds me of how the Nazis dealt with everyone who was hiding or supporting Jews("terrorists"). they wanted to secretly get as much info as possibe before making arrests and sending people to the concentration camps(no, they were not in Cuba). this methods don't quite look like those of a modern and democratic government. what's going on here?
Good riddence to this "anarchist" trying to disrupt the US. Haven't people learned that you need to work within the system to get anything done? If you work for corporate America, you know what I'm talking about.
From his infoshop.com website's frontpage, I see material posted on how to stop military recruiting. Our brave men & women are fighting for our freedoms just so he can post this crap. Protesting the war is one thing, interfering with military operations (including recruitment) is grounds for sedition, especially during times of war.
I say the Feds should throw the book at this guy and make an example of him so other "anarchists" will cease-and-desist with their "hate-america" nonsense. Our military and federal agencies are already busy enough tracking down the real terrorists. They don't need their time (or my tax dollars) wasted on morons like this guy.
That's sad. This country is becoming more hypocritical every day. The same people who claim that America is so great because of all of these 'freedoms' we have are the same people who think I (personally) should be shot for being an anarchist. You can't say 'you believe what you want, i'll believe what i want,' without getting a few dissedents involved.
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
and of course you mean John Christopher.
:)
"The Tripods": John Christopher
Well, perhaps not.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I don't get it.. where is the news or injustice? Was this site targetted unfairly or something?
From the sounds of it, some users of the site did something not kosher, even by the standards of the site admins, and the FBI with legal backing asked to see the logs.
If they want to whine about anarchy, maybe they should not keep said logs in the first place? Talk about hypocritical. Blame the government for asking, but don't blame yourself, gosh no.
An in related news, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has released a list of terrorist organizations, and guess what? None of the Right Wing terrorist ones are listed! I wonder why?
Dr. David Cole is quoted in the article.
I can smell political and ideological bias from here...
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Qoute from Pomegranate on message boards:
i keep http logs around for a few days to track worms etc. which are pretty frequent. i delete them much more quickly than is normally recommended for basic unix security.
none of the information i provided is from an http log. when you post to phpbb, mediawiki, geeklog etc. etc., your ip is recorded with your post. it's not a log, it's built into the software. admins can see it.
if you post here anonymously, i can still see the IP you used every time i read the message. it's permanent and it's not something i can change without changing to different software.
In the city of Saint Louis, Missouri it is perfectly okay to threaten to kill someone. I witnessed it. In front of two police officers my life was threatened, several times, and very clearly. According the police, one needs to be the President of the USA before they can act. The exact quote when I complained about the threats that they just witnessed was, "Who are you, the President?"
Apparently, one must follow through on the threat in order for action to be taken.
Any good packages out there to trim your logs short for, uh, space reasons? Say I have a busy site and a small hard drive and I only want to keep 2 weeks of logs.
Anarchist does not equal terrorist: Thomas Jefferson described himself as a rational anarchist, realizing that self-governance is the only true governance there is. Rights? Inalienable? HAH! What right to "Life" has an individual who swam too far out into the ocean and is not capable of swimming back? What right to "Liberty" does a climber have after having fallen into a crevasse? "Pursuit of Happiness"? Please note it says "Pursuit", not "Achievement of". As usual, there are hundreds more critics than actual participants, people more than eager to jump on various "should've" and "shouldn't've" bandwagons than to have actively participated in these issues prior to a /. article...
People who drop instantly to ad hominem attacks to defend their opinions and beliefs rather than RTFA...
I wonder if *any* slashdot member has ever run for elected office? (besides me, and mine is an acknowledged weak parody which might catch on someday...)
Having read through the posts on this topic prior to mine, there are a very few people who appear to at least attempt open-minded consideration of the issues: Thank you (to them), you are why I stay.
Fear the government that fears an armed and informed citizenry.
I love my country, it's the government I'm afraid of.
I still find myself amazed that a group of people so intelligent (on average) can behave so childishly (again on average) - maybe it's time for me to put aside my own childish optimisms?
sigh.
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
Unless you've done something wrong you have nothing to worry about.
stfu, fascist
That's right, little kiddy. Let good ol' Daddy Government tell you what to do, think, and say.
No independent thought, mass conformity, deminished free will.
This is just what the Framers were thinking when they passed 10 Amendments immediately *after* affirming the Consitution.
They had no great trust of strong, centralized governance. That doesn't mean there weren't any founders who throught a weak central government was a *good* thing, but they were all pretty fresh from King George's treatment.
Most of the Framers would not recognize their work of liberty in current expression of Executive power. But this expansionist policy of Executive priveledge is not a foreign concept to political party of the current President.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
There's been quite a bit of unmoderated dissing of the flag admin over his practice of maintaining logs at all, let alone the very short periods of time he does maintain them for purposes of security against malicious hackers.
It turns out that this practice has provided him the only out he could possibly have for keeping the web service viable. If he had had no IP evidence to relinquish to the Feds on demand (according to prescribed procedure), they would likely resort to the remaining option available to them, viz., confiscate the server.
The fact that the people whose IP addresses were turned over to the Feds, brought this grief on the admin through their abuse of the privilege of being hosted on the server, is a very excellent reason for coöperating with the Feds, moreover.
The point is, if he had not been keeping logs at all, he would have been facing the prospect of losing the entire server along with the chaps who were the source of his troubles. If the Feds are after flag and not the troublemakers, their gambit to provoke resistance from the admin as a pretext for seizing the server, failed utterly. Perhaps they were surprised he'd kept logs, as well. Maybe they were hoping he hadn't. Who knows at this point?
We can assume for the moment till the picture changes, that this is all the Feds are interested in as far as flag goes. Surely they must have bigger fish to fry, but maybe not.
I recommend that those who are genuinely interested, read through the entire thread here.
Yeah, so we're better than Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.
Is that our moral guidance these days?
Better ask...why do we have less freedom now than we did 10 years ago...20, 30, 40....and what has that loss of freedom meant? And what has it accomplished.
That's the test. How pointless is it to say "well, we're not as bad the Nazis". No, because the Nazi's were really really really awful.
They'll find something. Your mattress still have that tag on it?
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
You have the right to Free Speech
As long as you are not dumb enough to actually try it.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
These guys need to lay off the crack, it's making them paranoid.
I'm siding with the FBI on this one, these people are F.O.N (Freaks of nature)
I am a web developer and last week because of lack of disk space and performance problems with one of our large websites it was suggested that we turn off webserver logging. After reading this article, is that wise for a company to do? Obviously logging is beneficial for many reasons, but should it be required by law? If the FBI comes to my company tommorrow and asks for our server logs and we don't have any, what happens then? Will they cart my bosses off to jail??? hmmm.... :)
Hi folks. I hate to provide actual info when everyone is getting into a self-righteous frenzy about what idiot radical admin keeps logs, but...
This came out literally three minutes ago over a listserv for radical tech folks:
"While I can't comment on the specifics of these cases, I'm sure that quite of few of you will go "Doh!" when the details come out.
The problem here isn't logs. The problem is forum and weblog software that stores IP addresses. In other words, PostNuke, phpBB, Geeklog and other need a system to delete IP addresses from the MySQL db on a regular basis. If this is even desirable."
Someone else immediately replied with, "If they're stored in a database, a daily/hourly/whatever SQL query to zero the field should suffice"
So there you have it. Not the box admin's fault, but the folks putting in their blog software to move content. Feel free to argue about whether THOSE folks should know better.
This ordeal has been ongoing for a few weeks now. I guess the FBI finally got back to flag.blackened folks with legal papers. Originally, they were contacted by the FBI requesting certain IPs for certain posts. They responded with, "We need to see legal documents, we can't help you till then."
0 050223213951804 (the offending comments have probably been hidden/removed already).
See this post on Chuck0's blog for more information (Chuck0 is the webmaster of infoshop.org): http://chuck.mahost.org/weblog/index.php?p=877
Here's what you can't be told because of the gag orders:
There were two comments posted on Infoshop.org's Inews service (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/). These posts contained threats toward the Director of the FBI.
The supposed threats were probably posted as comments to this story: http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=2
So that's why the FBI is interested. They want to find out who has "threatened" their Director.
Btw, I'm going to kill the Director of the FBI!
HAHAHAAA! Take that Slashdot! Your subpeana for my IP address should be in the mail by next week. I hope you enjoy working with the FBI, CmdrTaco.
See the "No gag order here!" comment to this story for more details:d =12097580
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=144320&ci
My friend's gear was taken by the FBI because he made some prank phone calls to the IRS (reprogrammed the voicemail system with some pranks that were interpreted at bomb threats). Once he got his nearly new Packard Bell back it was seriously obsolete. How did they take his computer you ask? Simple, his phone was plugged into his modem, which was plugged into the wall. The feds then claim that the computer was part of the call. I guess law doesn't have to have any technical basis. (if you didn't know, when your modem is inactive the pass-thru phone is directly hooked to the line using a relay, usually a solid-state relay).
It might be a coincidence but my BBS at the time got some unusual new users (they just looked through files and didn't really download much) and line noise would appear for a brief amount of time right after connect. It went away after a while.
The FBI was looking frantically for quite some time. apparently there was no way to get an accurate time of the reprogramming of the voicemail system, and with such a heavy call volume it's not something you can go through and check every single person. Eventually one of the participants of the prank told a parent and it trickled up to the local police and then the FBI. Oh well, if only all the FBI's "cases" were that easy.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I think this is a perfect opportunity for him to try and raise $100,000 for legal defense through an online fund raising campaign, then he can pretend to be dead and noone online would know the difference and he can get back to his job working at the bank or the gas station or wherever he works while driving his brand new corvette.
Really, I think people like this have it coming to them if they challenge the big boys. Personally I'm no fan of the current system, but at least read the history books, things are always getting better. Life has become progressively better as long as history documents it and it will get better later on. The people so in favor of anarchy are typically the ones that would benefit the least from it. They lack the ability to see that government exists because people typically lack the capacity to get along with one another. The roads would not be built unless someone in a quarry somewhere with a truly shitty job wasn't smashing rocks. Those people typically only work because they have to in order to put a roof over their families' heads and food on the table. If you take the need to work from them, they won't smash more rocks. They don't care if the cities get bigger or if the oil gets pumped in Saudi Arabia, the just care that they can go home from the quarry, have a beer and eat dinner in front of their big screen satellite TV. He typically doesn't recognize the importance of his work and when the TV no longer worked and the beer stopped being delivered to the gas station, he would not realize that it was specifically because the roads rotted away without repair because there were no more rocks that had be smashed.
So when a person can back a concept such as anarchy without looking at the big picture, and then be dumb enough to keep logs, if the government burries the guy, he deserved it. As for his wife and infant daughter, well I really hope that they have somewhere stable to go, this loser doesn't look like he's got much to offer
Forgive me if this has already been asked and answered 72 times. It's too late and I'm too tired to read through this whole topic. :)
Are there laws regarding log retention? What if a site does a very poor or non-existent job at storing logs? What if the site only stores logs for 48 hours? When the FBI comes calling and says "Give me the logs", what happens if the site owner honestly replies "But I don't have those logs. I only keep 48 hours' worth of logs."?
As always, I'd like to point out that our Federal Government is far outside of its Constitutionally granted powers, roles, and responsibilities. I support a strict reading of the Constitution with the 9th and 10th Amendments intact. Congress likes to legitimize its right to do whatever it pleases by invoking its power to regulate interstate commerce. I'd like to point out that the 9th and 10th Amendments specifically address this political trick in the verbage "...the enumeration of the Constitution shall not...".
For those who wish to argue I ask,"Where does it end?" If you don't support a strict interpretation of the Constitution then what can't be legitimized by the enumeration of the power to regulate interstate commerce?
Face it. The USA as a democratically elected Constitutional Republic is a fraud. The document exists, but the institution quit playing by the rules as of the first meeting of Congress. What we have is a democratically elected banana republic which has no true charter. There is no existing document which legitimately grants our current federal government the scope of powers that it currently exercises.
I guess that makes it a democratically elected fascist state functioning no differently from the corrupt implementations of communism and socialism that dominate Eastern Europe.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Honestly, what did everyone expect to happen in a anti-govt situation. I think this goes along with the flight or fight syndrome but with a hell of alot more threatend white men. Ofcourse they are gonna attack, and even if their were not any logs, the FBI probably would have created them. In the end, he's gonna do time and he is gonna be blacklisted, but im sure alot on slashdot already are.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." -- Thomas Jefferson
those of you who endorse this kind of brownshirt behavior make me want to puke. orwell's vision is well on its way, as this story confirms:
Federal authorities have acknowledged for the first time that Brandon Mayfield was the target of electronic surveillance and that agents secretly took DNA samples and other items from his home last year as part of the probe into a deadly bombing in Madrid.
The court documents filed last year detailed the information that originally raised suspicions about Mayfield. In those filings, federal prosecutors said agents had determined that Mayfield's computer was used to search for airline schedules for travel from Portland to Madrid. It also was used to search Web sites on rental housing in Spain and to surf a site "apparently sponsored" by the Spanish passenger rail system. The agents found a handwritten note with a Spanish telephone number.
The lawyers said the Internet research done on travel to Spain was his daughter's middle school class assignment. They said Mayfield's daughter also wrote a so-called pro-Taliban letter -- two sentences questioning U.S. bombing of Afghanistan. They said the so-called classified national defense document was a U.S. Army manual from Mayfield's days in the service.
when they come for you kissing bush's fascist behind, i won't shed many tears. you are contemptable quislings who have let the liberties that tens of thousands of our citizens gave their lives to protect be destroyed.
mismoderators of this post will burn in hell.
How about we give them some work checking us all and become reknown criminals (our files might get flagged for terrorist action or even better, come on the FBI wanted list) by visiting those websites.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Sedition hasn't been illegal since WWI, you know.
And I agree. Opposing political thought should definitely be quashed. Oceania is already busy enough fighting Eastasia.
If they can purge even ONE whacko from society and it may save even one citizens life or stop other imaginable attacks on government and/or its people, what's the problem with the FBI or anyone scanning weblogs for IP's of those most vocal, vehiment, and serious about attacking people, the country or any aspect of our lives? If you're stupid enough to vomit your excrement on a PUBLIC webpage, and you're serious about what you say, then you deserve close scrutiny.
By most of you peoples standards, NAMBLA should be free to condone and freely discuss lewd and lascivious acts on young boys, the Lolita websites should be free to condone and discuss lewd and lascivious acts with female children, and Racist Hate sites should be free to condone and freely discuss killing people and destroying property because it ain't white.
If you're not a terrorist or violent anarchist, then you have no worries. You have no standing to argue this is George Orwell's 1984, you have no standing to say that "Democracy is a scam". This isn't peace time government intrusion. This isn't being done when all is peachy with the world. Get over it and don't spout off about overthrowing governments or killing people on public websites!
"It is essential that justice be done
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Exactly. The tolerance for hate speech in the USA is simply unacceptable. Follow the example of Belgium and Germany, and ban political parties if the voters are not well-behaved enough to reject them. Adopt libel laws as in Britain. Follow the French example and make search engines block entire parts of the Internet.
The "sneak-n-peek" warrants are in-fact issued by a judge. I belive this would cover your "judicial oversight" requirement. Additionally, the conditions for a "sneak-n-peek" include provisions that the search warrant must eventually be disclosed (the time delay is set based on the sensitivity of the investigation and the time required to act on the information).
I remain amused how people post on a public forum and complain about how our police forces are like the gestapo. The beauty is that the people doing the complaining are not in the least bit worried about the possibility of being dragged out of their house in the middle of the night and shot.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
at least make a convincing argument rather than resorting to fallacious accusations.
ANOTHER thing I love. Many of these comments are the equivalent of "Well if I were part of this anarchist community I would be really pissed."
Well if you read the comments about the press release from people who actually *go* to the site, you'll find a huge outpouring of support.
People who learned courage from D&D shouldn't try to mock people who are trapped in real situations.
Found the actual story via Lexis -- seems like you got some crucial details wrong.
Copyright 1995 The New York Times Company
The New York Times
July 28, 1995, Friday, Late Edition - Final
(New Jersey)
SECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 1; Metropolitan Desk
LENGTH: 87 words
HEADLINE: NEW JERSEY DAILY BRIEFING;
Rutgers Protesters Plead Guilty
BYLINE: By TERRY PRISTIN
DATELINE: PISCATAWAY
BODY:
Six Rutgers University students who took part in an April protest demanding the resignation of the school's president pleaded guilty yesterday to obstructing a highway. They were sentenced to 60 hours of community service and fined $302 each.
A seventh student, Otis Rolley 3d, faces trial on Aug. 10. The university president, Francis L. Lawrence, drew fire earlier this year after he remarked that black students do not have the "genetic, hereditary background" to perform well on college admissions tests.
Ceci n'est pas un post
Full story: (found via Lexis). Unsurprisingly, the GP got some details wrong.
Copyright 1995 The New York Times Company
The New York Times
April 13, 1995, Thursday, Late Edition - Final
SECTION: Section B; Page 6; Column 1; Metropolitan Desk
LENGTH: 468 words
HEADLINE: Protesters Against Rutgers President Clash With Police
BYLINE: By The New York Times
DATELINE: PISCATAWAY, N.J., April 12
BODY:
Protesters and the police clashed briefly today at a demonstration to demand the resignation of Rutgers University's president.
Witnesses at the protest said a few people were treated for minor injuries after the police used pepper spray and brought out clubs to disperse about 250 demonstrators who were blocking an intersection outside the house of the president, Francis L. Lawrence, in Piscataway, about half a mile from the campus in New Brunswick.
The clash seemed likely to reignite tensions on campus over a remark by Mr. Lawrence, disclosed earlier this year, that some students do not have the "genetic, hereditary background" to do well on college admissions tests. He has apologized, and the university's board of governors has affirmed its support of his leadership.
Today, after marching to Mr. Lawrence's house, students sat at the intersection of Route 18 south and River Road for 20 minutes. The Piscataway police were on the scene, as well as officers from the university force and the New Brunswick police.
When a car carrying a woman in labor approached, the police began to forcibly remove the protesters and used the pepper spray when they resisted, said the university's Police Chief, Anthony Murphy. The chief called the officers' actions "totally appropriate."
"The woman needed to get to the hospital, and students refused to leave," he said.
Witnesses said about half a dozen people were treated by emergency medical technicians.
There were no arrests, and no one was hospitalized, the Piscataway police said.
One protester, Steve Guzman, said the police started getting rough with students before they announced that a pregnant woman had to get through.
"Once we knew what was going on, we tried to back off, but the police had already opened out on us," said Mr. Guzman, a sophomore, displaying a small red mark on his back that he said he got when an officer hit him.
The university police refused to say whether billy clubs had been used.
Officials said 45 fire alarms were pulled and five bomb threats were received on campus today.
Members of the United Student Coalition, the group that has been coordinating the protests against Mr. Lawrence, did not claim responsibility, but Leslie Fehrenbach, the assistant vice president for public safety at Rutgers, believes the disruptions were linked to the protest.
The disclosure of Mr. Lawrence's remarks set off a series of protests, which included the disruption of a televised basketball game. But the campus has been relatively quiet in recent weeks.
One student said that was an illusion. "It never died," said Trevor Phillips, a junior.
"We're students, we've got exams and papers," he said. "We can't rally every week. I'd rather be in class, but we're not going to stop until he's gone."
GRAPHIC: Photo: About 250 students protested in Piscataway, N.J., near the house of Francis L. Lawrence, the president of Rutgers, calling for his ouster. Students clashed with the police. Minor injuries were reported. (Librado Romero/The New York Times)
LOAD-DATE: April 13, 1995
Followup:
Copyright 1995 The New York Times Company
The New York Times
May 13, 1995, Saturday, Late Edition - Final
SECTION: Section 1; Page 24; Column 1; Metropolitan Desk
LENGTH: 287 words
HEADLINE: Students Arrested in Protest Face Lesser Charges
DATELINE: NEW BRUNSWICK, N.J., May 12
BODY:
Eleven Rutgers University students have been charged with disorde
Ceci n'est pas un post
move the webite offshore, agency has no jurisdiction. Or better yet, create an offshore pure trust and have it own the website, agency has no jurisdition over non-(c)itizens. irateBuddhist
you're getting old as well
GrimRC
GrimRC
if this really happened? Or we looking at another fake?
...this bullshit about anarchists being sissies. This man had/has a forum, hmmm... let me repeat that: A FORUM! in which he and fellow anarchists discuss(ed) matters concerning their ideas and ontology regarding anarchism quite openly. Should he dismiss his family and reach for his AK-47 just because the mafiament tapped him on the shoulder? Way to go: shoot sparrows with a cannon!
Nice post hkb!
"The only clear view is from atop the mountain of our dead selves." - Peter Carroll
To be an ignorant, narrow-minded asshole of any and all political stripe.
it's got to be asked; what were you going to spend the money on? redistribute it to the poor? yourself? what's the anarchist justification, anyway?
GrimRC
What has anarchist communism to do with state communism? Anarchism calls for the abolition of hierarchies of power (including state violence). Anarchist communism calls for the dispersal of economic power among the people, and state communism calls for the concentration of economic power in the state. Anarchism rests on free association, including the ability to pool or divide resources. Anarchism does not equal Statism Anarchism does not equal Nihilism Why are anarchists (libertarians) responsible for the actions of Marxists (statists)? When you look at the actions of actual anarchist groups, not Marxist groups, you may find some surprises; check out the 'Makhnovist' Insurgency Army in Ukraine 1918-1921. Skirda's book isn't bad.
and find out something for yourself about anarchism, because it's entirely unrelated to your current preconceptions.
Yes of course there are destructive anarchists, just like there are destructive priests and destructive cops and destructive burger flippers. But that has nothing to do with anarchism. Nor has lesser or greater creativity anything to do with anarchism.
Anarchism is entirely about not submitting to universal rules imposed coercively by others when those are rules to which you have not agreed voluntarily. Such societal rules are as often as not created to make the masses fit into tidy pigeon holes for the benefit of an elite ruling through majority mandate or through the power of money or both. Not surprisingly then, anarchism is often associated with refusing to submit to the law of the land. But refusing to submit does not necessarily mean that an anarchist will break such laws; it merely means that he will not make an a priori committment not to break them.
That really is nothing like your media-induced preconceptions about anarchism, don't you agree?
The term "anarchist" is used by the mass media as a pejorative, rather like the word "hacker", but that's merely because such misuse sells newpapers and raises TV ratings, whereas telling the truth would be utterly boring. Be wise to it.