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or we could believe some punk whose rich daddy paid him to go to an ivy league and then he turned into a hippie journalist.

or we could believe some punk whose rich daddy paid him to go to an ivy league and then he turned into a war profiteering President. http://democracyrising.us/content/view/57/72/

First, and with respect to your service, impugning the character of Jack Murtha is beneath you.

I didn't intend to impugn his character, rather to criticize his stance. And while the actual resolution he proposed sounds reasonable and learned (thanks for the link, btw), his press release literally screams for immediate withdrawal. Part of the release is quoted here. Since democracyrising.us can hardly be considered a shill site for the administration, I think it's safe to assume they're not taking his words terribly out of context.

I think the reason some people are against a timetable is because it gives insurgents and terrorists a date they can shoot for (no pun intended) when they can resume operations. While I agree with that stance, I do think we need to give something like that to the INA (I keep calling it the Iraqi National Congress, don't know where that confusion came from). Afterall, it's their country, and we're just guests now. If they want to do something we think is foolish, well, there's not much we can do about that.

As for their politicians condemning terrorists without condemning insurgents, that's probably more pandering to their own base than anything else. I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Besides, it's a lot easier to condemn people who are killing innocent civilians than it is those who are targetting police and/or soldiers. The second group is bad enough, but the first is absolutely horrific.

You know, as a rule, I don't reply to ACs (if you can't take the time to create an account, why should I bother reading your thoughts?) But these are some good questions, and deserve to be answered.

Do you have the actual quotes? My impression was that they were arguing for a phased withdrawal on a timetable of a year or so.

From http://democracyrising.us/index2.php?option=com_co ntent&do_pdf=1&id=368, quoting Murtha's press release (can't find the original press release, I'm sure it's out there somewhere):

"Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq
militarily. IT IS TIME TO BRING THEM HOME." [Emphasis in original.]

Saying "it is time" in such an emphatic manner does not sound even a little like asking for a time table.

So almost three years after the invasion the Iraqi people are still worse off than they were before the invasion? I mean, if progress is really that slow then can you actually guarantee that the USA will ever achieve its goal in Iraq - whatever that is?

The Iraqi army is a shadow of its former self, but is getting stronger. Ditto the police. Oil production is below pre-war levels, but getting better. Can anyone guarantee anything will get better? Nope, not one way or the other. But I can guarantee that the US has a moral responsibility to do everything we can to help. Now, if the INC decides that we're more of a hindrance than a help, they can tell us to leave. But that should be their call, not ours.

Or maybe it would be like walking away from some guy looking to get in a bar fight. Have you actually sat down and thought through what would happen if the USA left or do you just take Bush's word for it that Bin Laden would become supreme dictator of Iraq when the few thousand insurgents defeated the hundred thousand strong Shiite militias armed by the USA?

I'd agree with that premise if we were not already there. If you want to use the bar fight analogy, it's like getting into a bar fight with a guy, then leaving afterwards to let the owner of the bar clean up. The least we can do is put the table back and pay for the broken mirror.

That seems to be the level that most Americans understand this: "If I walk away from this bar fight then people will realize just how small my penis is."

Leaving aside the simple truth in your statement, it has nothing to do with what I said. What I said was "I mean, what kind of man does that?" By that I mean, what kind of man walks away from a problem he created to leave others to deal with? Maybe your parents raised you to pawn off your responsibilities on other people, but mine raised me to stand up, accept responsibility, and act on it.

How can you determine if they are peaceful or not unless you observe their activities?

Wow, now I get where you are coming from... You are correct, they did trespass, after sending a letter to Lt. Gen. Michael V. Hayden (director of the National Security Agency) requesting a meeting, and after being turned away at the gate (the ASKED to come in, then when denied, they stepped on the dirt next to the base). Do you really think it's fair (in your links) to compare these polite, non-violent, letter-writing, balloon-carrying people to the environmental radicals, some women who broke into a missile silo and had access to a weapon, and a crazy who attacked a plane with an ax ?

By the way, this was a well known group that peacefully demonstrated in the past. To me at least, it sounds like the authorities would rather chase balloons than do the dangerous and important duty they are sworn to do. This is just another case of using the "War on Terror" and sunch nonsense as an EXCUSE to monitor peace activists. Plain and simple.

You are utterly cool! Hey they have dumped boddie on your yard?!!! did I get that right?

I appreciate the sentiment, man, but I gotta tell you - it is *not* cool to have stuff like that happen to you - it just really sux, actually. But yeah - it really happened. And I think the technical term for me (when those sorts of things were going on) was not so much "cool" as it was "hotter than a 2 dollar pistol on saturday nite" - as in "if you know me then at least 2 federal agencies have your name on at least one list each" and my best freind was a lawyer. And fwiw, no - I am not wanted (to the best of my knowledge) and am not a career criminal - I'm just a guy who doesn't like to be told to shut up.

.Its good to know that there are intellegent people still hangin in there rejecting all this nazi bullshit.

I just wanted to make sure you knew you're not the only one out here ... And as the guy on FSTV reminds us: "You are not alone"

See also: Open Letter to Cindy Sheehan, Crawford, Texas written by Ralph Nader, 10 August 2005 published on DemocracyRising.US - really you are not alone...

You are utterly cool! Hey they have dumped boddie on your yard?!!! did I get that right?

I appreciate the sentiment, man, but I gotta tell you - it is *not* cool to have stuff like that happen to you - it just really sux, actually. But yeah - it really happened. And I think the technical term for me (when those sorts of things were going on) was not so much "cool" as it was "hotter than a 2 dollar pistol on saturday nite" - as in "if you know me then at least 2 federal agencies have your name on at least one list each" and my best freind was a lawyer. And fwiw, no - I am not wanted (to the best of my knowledge) and am not a career criminal - I'm just a guy who doesn't like to be told to shut up.

.Its good to know that there are intellegent people still hangin in there rejecting all this nazi bullshit.

I just wanted to make sure you knew you're not the only one out here ... And as the guy on FSTV reminds us: "You are not alone"

See also: Open Letter to Cindy Sheehan, Crawford, Texas written by Ralph Nader, 10 August 2005 published on DemocracyRising.US - really you are not alone...

http://democracyrising.us/content/view/196/164/ This is an excellent article and it's the best I've read on the draft rumors. Summary: The rumors of secret draft plans are only rumors, but the military can't keep using mercenaries to account for their poor recruiting numbers. Sooner or later, the merc recruiters are hiring the same people at higher cost who could've served in the military and bodies are needed on the ground in the field. Like with police, you need support people for every person on duty. You can retrain some troops for infantry combat and ship them, but you can't cannibalize all corps and lose the support people to win the war. Nevermind that we went to war without any clear victory conditions set.