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Pentagon Creating A Database Of Students
needacoolnickname writes "The Washington Post is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits. A little chuckle from the Pentagon in the article: '...anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate suppression file. That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.'"
Coral Cached Article
Pentagon Creating Student Database
Recruiting Tool For Military Raises Privacy Concerns
By Jonathan Krim
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 23, 2005; A01
The Defense Department began working yesterday with a private marketing firm to create a database of high school students ages 16 to 18 and all college students to help the military identify potential recruits in a time of dwindling enlistment in some branches.
The program is provoking a furor among privacy advocates. The new database will include personal information including birth dates, Social Security numbers, e-mail addresses, grade-point averages, ethnicity and what subjects the students are studying.
The data will be managed by BeNow Inc. of Wakefield, Mass., one of many marketing firms that use computers to analyze large amounts of data to target potential customers based on their personal profiles and habits.
"The purpose of the system . . . is to provide a single central facility within the Department of Defense to compile, process and distribute files of individuals who meet age and minimum school requirements for military service," according to the official notice of the program.
Privacy advocates said the plan appeared to be an effort to circumvent laws that restrict the government's right to collect or hold citizen information by turning to private firms to do the work.
Some information on high school students already is given to military recruiters in a separate program under provisions of the 2002 No Child Left Behind Act. Recruiters have been using the information to contact students at home, angering some parents and school districts around the country.
School systems that fail to provide that information risk losing federal funds, although individual parents or students can withhold information that would be transferred to the military by their districts. John Moriarty, president of the PTA at Walter Johnson High School in Bethesda, said the issue has "generated a great deal of angst" among many parents participating in an e-mail discussion group.
Under the new system, additional data will be collected from commercial data brokers, state drivers' license records and other sources, including information already held by the military.
"Using multiple sources allows the compilation of a more complete list of eligible candidates to join the military," according to written statements provided by Pentagon spokeswoman Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke in response to questions. "This program is important because it helps bolster the effectiveness of all the services' recruiting and retention efforts."
The Pentagon's statements added that anyone can "opt out" of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate "suppression file." That file will be matched with the full database regularly to ensure that those who do not wish to be contacted are not, according to the Pentagon.
But privacy advocates said using database marketers for military recruitment is inappropriate.
"We support the U.S. armed forces, and understand that DoD faces serious challenges in recruiting for the military," a coalition of privacy groups wrote to the Pentagon after notice of the program was published in the Federal Register a month ago. "But . . . the collection of this information is not consistent with the Privacy Act, which was passed by Congress to reduce the government's collection of personal information on Americans."
Chris Jay Hoofnagle, West Coast director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, called the system "an audacious plan to target-market kids, as young as 16, for military solicitation."
He added that collecting Social Security numbers was not only unnecessary but posed a needless risk of identity fraud. Theft of Social Security numbers and other personal in
to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits.
It will start similar to "Student A has a rich family, pass. Ahh.. Student B is lower-middle class, offer Student B a scholarship attached to a term in the Reserves." and end with "Draft Student B."
Trolling is a art,
When this fails to get enough recruits can the draft be far behind?
Oh wait, I meant 1984. they want their opressive, rights-stripping government back.
Trolling the trolls who troll the trolls since '92
Just when I think our society can't get any more Orwellian, we see this:
It's a hat-trick of privacy violation.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, too...soon this will be expanded to all americans eligible for military service...then all americans, period. Refusing to submit your info for this database will automatically label you as a dissident, although what with the new national IDs coming out, you'll be in that database whether you like it or not.
Welcome to the New World Order.
(P.S.: Here's a link to the various privacy advocates' letter to the Pentagon referenced in the article.)
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
16 through college. I am a recent graduate but I want to be tracked for recruitment. This is discrimination. It's unconstitutional!
Evolution or ID?
What do you do? Recruit, recruit, recruit like there's no tomorrow. Use every tool you can get your hands on. Raise the "financial incentives" of joining up--even if you were to double a grunt's pay, they'd still be waaaay cheaper than hiring another mercenary. Make lists. Get aggressive. Be persistent. Get every person you can lay your hands on.
One of the following things will most likely happen in the next few years:
The Pentagon would much rather have a healthy, full-strength, all-volunteer military force than an expensive, byzantine network of "independent contractors" doing more and more grunt work outside the scope of both military and civil law. To this end, they're gonna do everything in their power to meet their recruitment needs--and frankly, creating a database of students is pretty freakin' innocuous compared to some of the other recruiting shenanigans that have been going down lately...
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
p?
Here comes the draft! Grab your helmets.
School studies YOU!
is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm
Remind me again which one is the evil one?
Candidate: Ummm... 2.
Officer: You liar. Your file says, you are gay. OUT
Name: Osama Bin Laden
Address: 5586 Ti..."Hey, wait a minute...!"
are belong to us.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I'm thinking "opression" is they word they are looking for. They are running out of bodies to send to Iraq and fast. They can't get enough people recruited and they're going to have to consider a draft. But they won't call it that... they'll want to call it something else. I'm thinking that if you neglect to opt-out at some stage you may find yourself "volunteering by default."
This is fairly interesting because my School District announced they wouldn't provide student-information to the Pentagon by default. Oh yeah, we're the only district in the nation to do this. Normally, it's opt-out, not opt-in. Needless to say, everything else school related is opt-out. And I haven't received any notice to opt-in.
Because our school is full of defiant jerks (read: they once refused to pass a budget as required by law) we stand to lose Federal Funding.
I don't have a problem with opt-out, does anyone?
I will targetted announcements and pop-up ads from the Gov't now. Won't Double-click be excited.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
The armed forces are marketing now? How can that be?
John Kerry and the Democrats told me I was going to be drafted right after the election. I keep checking my mail. It's been 6 months now and no draft notice.
It must have been lost in the mail. Have any of you recieved your draft notices yet? When do you ship out?
I realize this is supposed to be sarcastic..
but really... don't temp them.
I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. Databases are necessary for any kind of serious sales targetting.
How many times should they talk with the kid about which branch of the service they'd be interested in?
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
The Pentagon is making a database of the poorest and most underprivileged high school students in order to hook them in to military service.
At my high school, which was in a relatively wealthy county, there were almost never military recruiters, and very few students went into the military. Those that did would do so via the rather prestigious military colleges (U.S. Naval Academy, etc.).
Meanwhile, I have relatives that live in upstate New York. Their school district is in a relatively poor section of the country, and they have recruiters almost permanently stationed in the high schools, preying on the students. At this point, even if parents complain, the school can do nothing about the recruiters' presence due to the No Child Left Behind act.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Everybody else has you in their database.
Why do you think you get so much junk mail?
...send an email with the subject line "Unsubscribe" to slavemaster@unclesam.gov. Include in the body your name, address, blood type, and your RealID non-government citizen identifier number.
For anyone who wonders why this would be necessary, let me give an example.
CapitalOne got it into their heads that they should send me a credit card application every week. After spending an hour trying to track down a telephone number that would let me speak with a CSR without having an account number, I asked them to stop mailing me. The CSR rep replied that the system takes 12 to 16 weeks to fully honor a request to not receive offers! Which is pretty funny, because I asked the rep "so if I sign up for the credit card today, you can take my name off the list, but if I just want you to stop sending me junk that someone can use to steal my identity, it takes 4 months?!?!" He didn't have a good answer.
Anyways, as soon as I move to a new address three months later, I started receiving two offers from CapitalOne every week! They obvious match solely on name and address.
I just don't feel like going through the same bollux again to get my address off the list. Sheesh.
If I agree to be in their database, do I get a little card that can get scanned at military surplus stores, and maybe some handy coupons printed on the back?
What?
Opt-out isn't as easy as it seems. You can't just delete somebody from the database, because then you have no record of them opting-out the next time you do a data load from your source. The only way to properly do opt-out is to put them in a separate opt-out DB.
dom
... Registration how? Except the 16 and 17 year olds it's not much different.
First, let me say that I agree with the general feeling of creepitude here. It's sad that our society is involved in so many battles that it can't find the soldiers through traditional recruitment. But the fact that this database is being proposed means that the government can't get the answers with traditional means. I realize that, as the X-Files says, The Truth Is Out There in some government database, but that doesn't mean that the Pentagon can get at it. They can't seem to get the answers they want from Social Security or the IRS, despite the ominous quality of those databases. Perhaps it's easier to slip through the cracks than it appears. This is further proof that the layers of bureaucracy don't actually solve things. They just slow things down even more. So while I continue to worry about 1984, I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that this is a good indication that the database culture of the government is failing.
Hey, they are doing this because they NEED people. And they're not going to get them, so that means it's draft time for all of us without wealthy families.
I don't know about you, but I'm 16 and I have NO plans to register for selective service. NONE. Fight the system, people. Die free.
That will be recorded in the database.
It sounds like you are not happy with this.
Failure to be happy is treason.
In Soviet Amerika, our new Overlords welcome you.
Maybe the real anger here should be aimed at the waste of government resources. This data is already tracked under the mantel of 'Selective Service'. Currently, all males in this rough age group need to remain registered so they can be selected as 'recruits' (if the draft counts as active recruiting).
Why not just modify the existing system instead of creating an expensive, possibly error prone new system that'll draw the ire of privacy advocates?
Caused these fellas a world of hurt:
I have no interest in paying for this troop shortage. Maybe we can have an American lapel-pin flag tax on all the cheap patriotism out there so that they can get what they want.
... You are the one our warfighters depend on. You are Intelligence. Be DIA."
Maybe the government could get more recruits if they didn't sound like such a fascist organization:
"You believe in America. Strength. Integrity. Dedication. Making a difference for the nation.
This is from a job posting for the DIA. The kind of people that would be attracted to this are the kind of sheeple that would ignore the non-existance of WMDs in official reports.
I thought we already had the Selective Service with requires compulsory registration... What happened to that database?
and soon!
if you're not worrying, start now!
The Republicans would rather destroy the Army and lose in Iraq than lose the next election.
Best Slashdot Co
Nothing to see here keep moving along.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
anyone can opt out of the system by providing detailed personal information that will be kept in a separate suppression file. I wanted to opt out, and decided to do it as soon as possible before they close this loophole -- suckers. Unfortunately the article did not mention to which marketing firm I should send my info. I assumed it's the one mentioned in the article below this one -- DoubleClick. You guys should waste any time either... P.S.: Do any of you guys know why they asked for my credit card number?
We have something called "Datenschutzgesetz" (Law to protect Data) which says that:
-data may not be collected without the approval of every person (opt-in)
-if a person demands it, the databaseentry concerning him has to be given to him AT NO CHARGE (for free)
-the data may not be shared with another company without the approval of every person (opt-in)
-one can demand the deletion of the data
If you don'T comply with these rules, you face fines and prison (up to 5 years)
Every company has to appoint a person responsible for compliance with the law and train it's employees every 2 years.
--
So much for "the land of the free"...
A draft will be needed for the upcoming invasion of Iran, which Scott Ritter (former UN weapons inspector in Iraq) says has already covertly started.
Indeed, Iran is not like Iraq. Iraq was a very splintered social and religious community, while Iran is far more coherent. Iran is well armed. Considering how poorly the Americans have fared in Iraq, Iran is out of the question for anyone with half a mind. Unfortunately, such people are not at the helm of the United States.
I'm praying for all the American youth who may get mislead into dying in some desert battlefields in third-world nations.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Service guarantees citizenship!
Do your part!
Would you like to know more?
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
So what exactly do we do with the kids in the "supression file"? Or maybe a better question: what do we do with their parents after their kids are hauled off?
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
2) The government knows who you are... hmmm... that's not news either
3) The government is getting more saavy and is kicking into some targetting recruitment. Just like every advertising firm on the planet.
(humor tag) How did this get posted on /. ? Is it because they used a database?
Agile Artisans
its ok, because you can opt out of being included in that suppression file. It will kept in another suppression file.
To me, the scary part isn't that the Pentagon wants to aggressively market to potential recruits, it's that all this data is already compiled and available on these kids, ready to purchase. A great many of them are still minors. Do schools sell this information? How did the marketing company/ies get all of it? It seems the moment you're born you're in the database... Yuk.
ON DELETE CASCADE
you do realize you are going to get modded down to hell for posting something that is contrary to the slashbot way of thinking, don't you?
you never point out inconsistancies in democrat rhetoric, you just pretend like the words were never uttered by anyone.
personally, i agree with your post...
Take a friggin' hike, troll. I disagree with many of TMM's posts, but he presents arguments that make me at least think. What have you contributed to improve slashdot, troll? Name one thing. Just one.
I thought so.
It must be Windows. It needs half a gig of RAM and a hardware-accelerated graphics card just to run Solitaire.
Just slightly off topic, but I have never understood the logic in the U.S. as to how someone can have the maturity to make the decision to give his or her life for their country and yet lack the same capacity to make decisions regarding the use of alcohol.
The same arugments that are used to justify restricting alcohol sales to those under 21 can be used to justify restricting enlistment in the armed services. Does any 18 year old really understand the life and death decision they're making?
It's obvious to me that Pentagon officials understand this and exploit the naivite of young people in their drive for recruits.
Don't we already have the selective service system for this? I remember those "it's the law" commercials making damn sure you filled out that card when you turned 18.
Do we really need yet another system for this? Privacy issues aside (and there are *tons* of those), this seems redundant.
I guess it does start earlier, but do we need to be tracking 16 year olds while they're still in highschool? Ridiculous.
~EEE~
- I didn't have a social security number
- I didn't have a driver's license
- I certainly didn't have any credit cards
But I did have a:- Savings account. Paper passbook. I imagine that all the numbers were in some computer somewhere but it sure wasn't networked with anything else.
- Student info folder at school. All the grades etc. were kept track of by secretaries and typewriter.
- Selective Service registration (I turned 18 my senior year).
The place where I did finally interface with some national databases was when I took the PSAT's. All of a sudden a bazillion colleges were sending me mail. (No, not E-mail!)Of course, now all my kids got Social Security numbers at birth. If you don't get them one, you can't use them as a deduction...!
"is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm ..."
Try new missile defense sugar crisps?
Drive a tank, win a car?
You'll never get a rush like the crushing sound of a little dictators neck?
I am truly frightened.
-- http://www.criticalassets.com
Arent we trying to block businesses from doing this? Do not call lists and stuff like that? But who is going to put through legislation to stop the pentagon from spamming and calling us all?
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
It's called (or was called ca 1993 - 1997) a "P-card" (Prospect card)
A P-card is what that poor bastard uses when he calls you or your slacker kid every freakin' night of the week, trying to get the two "sits" (appointments) his staion commander told him he had to get before he could go home for the night.
P-card databases are built from a variety of automated and non-automated sources. The armed forces have bought mailing lists targeting the male 18-24 year group for years. Recruiters also use high school year books, phone books, mailing lists provided by schools, and the ASVAB test you took to get out of PE for the day, and other students to build their P-card database.
The Penatagon building another database is redundant as any recruiter will tell you. Most of the leads it will generate will likely be useless, but recuriters will be forced to refine them, adding more work to an already never-ending day on the bag.
I imagine many army recruiters are wishing they were in Iraq right now instead of cold-calling people with little to no interest in volunteering to serve in the military.
At least in Iraq they get to shoot back at the bastards.
"I worked hard for it. I deserve it. And I have it," Campbell said. "It's all mine."
A couple of stories that may add a historical perspective:
.22 casings, and wondered: who was paying for the bullets? I couldn't imagine that the left-wing PTA would ever budget for them.
Plastic Army Men
----------------
Remember the great deals on plastic Army men that you could get on the back covers of comic books? This was back in the early '70's. My friend and his brother weren't satisified with their "one per customer" offer, so they made up a bunch of fake siblings with silly names and sent orders it their name.
About 10 years later, the brothers were getting a ton of military recruiting junk mail. As were their fake siblings...
Riflery Team
------------
I was a member of the Riflery team in high school, circa 1981. I lived in a pretty liberal place at the time.
At on practice, I looked down at the bucket of spent
I asked the teacher-coach. He looked at me funny, and said: "The Army pays for the bullets".
It took me a second to absorb this, and I asked what the Army was getting back in return. The teacher-coach said: "Your target scores".
Now, my parents hadn't agreed to that, and neither did I. I quit that day, not wanting to be "special need" drafted as a sniper.
jh
Prepare the golden probe.
ogg
Black cat, searing pain, flames...? I must be in Heaven! - Homer Simpson
If someone decided to "opt out" by providing their name, social security, and pictures of their hairy butt, should they expect a visit from the FBI?
The FBI was looking for my brother in the early 1970s after he pissed on a recruiter. Eventually, he did go into the Navy but they kicked him back out after training. I think he pissed off too many people.
No, but they told me I could go home 6 months ago. Maybe that got lost in the mail.
If they're desperately in need of such information, they could always just give a call over to India to obtain such private data. Indeed, they could probably arrange a bulk purchase deal discount.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Anyone that has a widespread marketting audience imports lists every other week. So a suppression list is required given that if I "delete" you today instead of move you to a suppresion list and I import you tomorrow because I bought a new list from marketting agency "We Sell Stuff". Then I'm not respecting your "Do Not Mail" request. This "keep a seperate list" is what every marketting DB manager worth his salt will do to avoid complaints.
So take off your tinfoil hats and move along.
Haven't they (the military) been doing this for years now?
When I was ten or eleven, my mom filled out some survey and instead of using my name, she used the alias "John".
When I turned 18, we got all sorts of phone calls from the Army/Marines/Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard asking to speak with John. We tried to tell the recruiters that he was fictional, but they didn't believe us, instead choosing to believe the name on their call sheets.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
It's a 'do not contact'-flag, it's not an opt-out. Even with the 'do not contact'-flag, they will keep all your information (grade points etc.), continue to gather new information, and even pass it on for purposes outside the military.
You are a Karma Whore. Those unfamiliar with your posting tactics are the ones modding you up. This unknowingly makes them Karma Johns.
LOL. Nice one.
Storage is cheap, processing is cheap. They're both only getting cheaper. I would nearly expect this trend to keep happening until the length, width and mass of your last turd is recorded for posterity and instantly available on an FBI agents desk near you.
So, do you still believe the Easter Bunny about how we're winning?
If you do - and most of us ex-military don't - you're going to love paying for it.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
With so few people in the military, how can the United States carry out its obligations as a world power? One obligation is providing disaster relief like that in January of 2005 in Southeast Asia.
By stopping all their stupid wars, duh! That, and stopping to call themselves silly names like "world power" and "leaders of freedom and democracy". Give us a fucking break, 20th century called and they want their cold war back.
Huh? You mean like this? Man, Americans don't know shit about how their own government works. No wonder why you freaked out like you did. Ignorance leads to fear and all that.
Look, for whatever reason, the military was unable to get this info from the SSS, they had to go to a marketing firm in order to solicit their own citizens. Christ on a cracker, you think this is Orwellian? Military service was mandatory for a very long time in the US. It's mandatory in a huge number of countries, many of which you'd probably even consider liberal democracies.
Its True! The US Government is using Scientology!
Makes me wonder if the schools with cooperate with "anti-recruiters" who are trying to starve the armed forces so the U.S. won't also go into Iran or Syria based on yet another pack of Bush lies. Normally I would be opposed to such activity, but as long as we're invading countries illegally (i.e., as long as Bush is in office), this would seem to be a prudent effort.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Why does everyone keep bringing this up? It's a neat scare tactic but it's not going to happen. There is still an excess of reservists and guard units which have not been called up. (I know this because I know a lot of them which have not been called up or have been rotated home from duty). Barring another war taking place on US soil there will not be a draft.
Committing to a draft would actually hurt the military more than help. A dramatic increase in personnel would strain existing logistical resources and money allotted to the department of defense. There would have to be a extreme increase in military funding before any drafting would occur.
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
Student: "I don't want you to have my information, and I don't want to be recruited."
Recruiter: "Oh, well in that case, I need all your information so we can put you on our 'draft immediately'... errr, 'do not call' list.
Statesmen serve to better the country and help the people.
Politicians serve to better themselves and help friends.
Take up arms
Form a militia
Lawfully uninstall the new king's men
If you think anything less is going to stop the USA's constitutional train wreck, you are deluding yourself.
P.S. SCOTUS just ruled that your property rights now come at the descretion of your local king's man. Make sure you can pay more tribute than a private developer and they just might let you keep it.
If the poor people see military conscription as a means to get rid of poor people, they'll be angry. If they seem likely to acknowledge this possibility as fact (regardless of whether it actually is factual), then conscription efforts will quickly become egalitarian, else target richer people outright.
... welcome our new suit-wearing, list-making, teen-stalking overlords.
Live according to the Categorical Imperative. If the Categorical Imperative tells you not to live by it... ignore it
This isn't a privacy violation. This is the exact same tactics used by telemarketers, etc. They get profiles of potential customers and then call those customers. Nothing new here, just taking existing publicly available information and putting it in a database. The Pentagon has no authority to get information not in the public record, so they aren't going to have GPA's, school subjects, etc, unless it's publicly available.
If you opt out of course they have to keep you in a different database. If they didn't then every time they reviews their records you'd keep getting added back to the database. How else would they keep track of the fact that you didn't want to be in their database in the first place.
As for sharing the information, the only bit of information they would have that would be new is your response to their inquiries. Fine they can tell people that you don't want to be in the military. Given the size of our military compared to the country's military age population, that's a pretty big list.
This notion of being labeled a dissident is just plain silly. Not wanting to be in the military is a common enough thing that it's insufficient for profiling "dissidents". The FBI has enough to keep track of with more active dissidents that they don't have the time to go through the Pentagon's database and find out who didn't want to be in the Marines.
So stop with the paranoia, it isn't 1984 yet.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The US Navy and the NSA (or what there was of it at the time) used a very similar method to recruit crypto staff during WWII and after. Same during conflict with USSR/Cuba, and so on. Like it or not, the military in this country needs specialized skills (math, engineering, etc.), particular personalities (intel, ops, etc.) and so on; and this is not a bad way of recruiting said talent. If you can get past the idea that "all things done by the Fed are evil", you might consider the outcome if they do not find talented persons to serve. The idea that the military exploits poor, stupid people is a fallacy. The average person that I work with (in the Navy's CT community/NSA) are in the top few percent in terms of intelligence, knowledge, skills and ability. Are their stupid people in the military? Of course, just as there are in the civilian world. Are there poor people that join for financial reasons? Of course, just like there are poor people in the civilian world who take unpleasent jobs for financial reasons. Get over yourselves...Slashdot is not exactly the bastion of geniuses.
"Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
This line causes more people to run in fear than any weapon of mass destruction.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
It must have been lost in the mail. Have any of you recieved your draft notices yet? When do you ship out?
You'd be funnier if these people weren't dying.
But oopsie, point out that the Bush administration is full of liars who have a pathological fear of the truth, and suddenly you're a seditious liberal hippie communist. Point out that modern religions don't like it when you bear false witnesses, and neocons scream "Why do you hate America so?!"
Besides, Bush can't even keep his story straight on Iraq. What would the kids be going to fight? The war on 911terroristWMDfascistbrutaldictatoroil?
In my country, so called people's army had exactly such a database of all students, because every student was actualy a recruit on delay.
But that was deep past in the totalitarian communist era. Today it would be illegal to keep such data for any reason. What's exactly going on in the USA??? Is it a precursor to conscription?
There you are, staring at me again.
Now that you've made such comments, there's a very good chance you'll be added to a list of potential trouble makers. You'll probably be amongst the first to be drafted.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
I would have thought they are already doing this. As a nuclear engineering student, I get mailings from the Navy once every few months. Ive never talked to a recruiter before, so why would the Navy be sending me all that crap? And not other branches?
Thats funny - they already get names addresses and telephone numbers from schools in exchange for federal aid as noted in this article
A little-noticed clause in the 2002 No Child Left Behind Act requires high schools to hand over students' names, addresses and telephone numbers to military recruiters as a condition of receiving federal aid.
I guess this would fill in the gaps and really make sure 'no child is left behind'.
I wonder would this lead to more or less stories like this:
In one well-publicized case in Colorado, Army recruiters were tape-recorded encouraging a student journalist posing as a high school dropout to create a diploma from a non-existent school to comply with military enlistment requirements. They also were heard giving him advice on how to disguise a chronic "marijuana problem" and how to pass a mandatory drug test.
air and light and time and space
The Dept of Education is planning on creating a national database too. This database is for college students across the country with "unit-level" records for each student. What does this mean? The government will collect every class a student enrolls in and measure that student's performance. So far, this is gonna be for the undergraduate level, but can be expanded for all levels of college.
More details are available here... http://chronicle.com/free/v51/i14/14a02201.htm
Is this something worth being shocked about? Not really, student data is shared all the time in the academic system. This includes everything about that student and their families.
Personally, I say "eh!". The government (and everyone else with your info) has been doing it for 50+ years, so having one more is no biggie. I think these things are hyped a little too much.
Make 2 yrs of government service mandatory and offer non-military options (Peace Corps, etc...) as well.
I think we will see a draft return sometime in the next few years if the military continues to fail to meet recruiting goals.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
You're not using hotmail, by any chance?
Oh, wait, it's not somewhere after November yet...
children maybe they would have more luck. I almost enlisted in the army, but I wanted to talk it over with my family beforehand. I called and canceled my appointment only to have a recruiter call me up and try to play mind games in order to pressure me into joining. I played a game called "Propaganda" in Academic Games in high school, and I was identifying every single technique he was using. He was playing mind games with me like I was 12. If the Army wants to play games, let them play games. Meanwhile recruits will dwindle as they get treated like shit for the chance to die for Dick Cheney.
Monstar L
I understand the need for the DoD to market for new recruits, but this is ridiculous. The gov needs less information, not more.
Health Insurance Quotes
sold them some new software package. And we know how the government loves to buy things. Talk to the FBI, they love new software; they keep spending more and more money on it each year.
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At least they trying to field a boy band to plant subliminal messages... "Yvan eht nioj, yvan eht nioj.." Man I love that song, can't remember where I heard it though. Well, I'm off to join the Navy!
Remeber though that this new database covers down to 16, covers males and females and is an opt-out while selective service starts at 18, is males only and is an opt-in. Yes, I realize it is the law and that you will be denied certain financial aid/loans/jobs if you don't but there are people that do not register and still live productive lives.
No, I don't agree with the new database and yes I think it is a waste... just for different reasons than you do.
Honor is like virtue, if you must tell people that you have it then chances are you don't.
Iraq is the first stop point on the path to control of the Middle East oil reserves. Of course, so far it hasn't worked very well in case of Iraq (in fact works much worse than "Oil for food") program ever did but that fact doesn't deter Washington from trying. Draft is inevitable as is more conquer in the Middle East.
The US energy security is in jeopardy and the cheap energy addicted Americans need their fix. Get ready for more trouble.
I hope your stupid family dies from a roadside bomb, you retarded internet nerd.
So they send off the lower income folks to some desolate country, while the higher income conservative folk can stay home comforting each other on how neccessary the war was, and how the soldiers sacrafice was for the greater good.
uh huh.
I hope they call Jenna and Barbara! Hey, W could do a lot to help the war effort by persuading Jenna and Barbara to enlist! Others will surely follow their example. They are perfectly qualified. Bush thinks it's worth the risks and the sacrafice right? We're building a stronger, democratic Iraq!
If anything, it's showing the decline of /. - or I'm just noticing the crap more and more.
Plus, having served in the military, one would assume that someone would have some understanding for what it can and can't accomplish. And a basic respect for the institution and the people that make it up.
Wired carried a story two weeks ago on the army's recruiting shortfall. A lot of different media starting reporting on that then.
So this is not surprising. Now why anyone would want to advertise to the Pentagon that they do not want to join is beyond me. Constituting a separate database of unpatriotic scum sounds rather sinister to me.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
> are belong to us.
(Score:5, Funny)
I knew the old nag was good for one more lap.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Just say no. The poor bastard E5 that is calling you has a job to do. And if he doesn't meet his quota, he rotates to something else. And the next poor bastard in there goes through the same thing.
Pretty soon, the Army doesn't have to talk about "downsizing" anymore. The Navy doesn't have to downsize. The Army doesn't have to downsize. It's a self-regulating system. The system will take care of itself, if you just give it the chance.
As long as you have a fucking choice, just tell the guy you're not interested and hang up. He's not going to fucking take it personally, like you just insulted him. It's just part of the job. He has to make a record of everyone he calls, and if he's called 200 people in a day and absolutely no one wants to sign up, the fucking CEO might have to change his business plan. Like getting right the fuck out of South Korea; hell, they don't want us there anyways. And get the hell out of Germany and Italy. They don't want us there, either.
They loved us back when we were "fighting" Russia, because we gave them cash-money just for their fucking company. It was like an allowance, and they loved that shit like a 13-year-old. Now we aren't sending them free cash, and they don't care for our company. Fine with me, bail the fuck out.
Anyway, I think the Army and Marines and Airforce should be patrolling our southern and northern borders. See, their fucking job STARTS at those borders. That is how the system is setup.
Let the Border Patrol handle the domestics. Searching and regulating. But have the fucking Army and SEALS and Marines out, playing in the field with their toys. Just declare an 8km DMZ, and shoot anything that moves. Cats, dogs, chickens, monkeys, Mexicans, Columbians, Zetas. Fucking arabs. Whatever.
My kids will learn to love cold weather and Molson Beer.
You're not obliged to register until age 18. The goal of this database is to start recruting people aged 16 and 17.
Private armies protecting US companies for a $1,000 a day per hired gun, driving around in brand new SUVs while regular US soldiers struggle to get flax jackets... it's no wonder the Army now wants to start conducting a marketing cull for America's youth.
Hey, I got a idea sign up for a tour of duty and get a FREE iPod! Yeah the US Army Rocks!
Really fuckin' sad!
Screw karma... it's highly over rated
Change "recruit" to "draft" and you've got it right.
Oh, wait. This is Soviet Russia. Nevermind.
Listen folks, here's the deal. Many people are opposed to the war, both inside and outside of the military. This is inconcequential to this discussion. People are using this issue to present thier own personal interests. Parents are calling foul play because they don't want Johnny or Suzie getting blown up in Iraq. Other people are fearful of their privacy, so this sounds all too "big brother" to them. The reality of the entire issue is this: We are a nation founded on revolution and war. Our power in the world was won through superior military force. We are currently having difficulty in maintaining that force. Measures are being taken to resolve that issue. Period. Don't cry to me about big brother or dead children. Look at the world around you and realize that the reason you enjoy your freedoms is because of the blood spilt by hundreds of thousands of Americans who paid the price for you. (I'll stop short of the Christ reference) If people really don't want thier children getting blown up, then don't vote for a president who will go to war so easily. If you are afraid of "big brother", don't use credit cards, save your money and pay for everything in cash. Our modern society is productive because of our ability to exploit knowledge opportunities. Now that it's being done for the defense of the country, people want to complain. If a marketing company sent you a free box of Tide Detergent in the mail you wouldn't bitch, because you're greedy like that. Well, you're being given freedom, and it's going to require some computers and research to get it done. No one forces the hand of the individual to sign the paper. So shut up about all the crap, take a deep breath and try not to choke on the sweet air of freedom. Went to school? Thank a teacher. Learned in English? Thank a soldier.
There is no logic to it. It's the government and they make the laws and there is no logic or continuity to the laws. I think they should pass a law saying if you enlist you get a special card which allows you to drink. How about that for a marketing concept?
On another couple notes, you can enlist with parental or guardian approval at 17. So you can be in the military and not drink or smoke. Further, most rental car places will not let you rent a car unless you are 25. So, you can drive a tank, a Humvee, handle nuclear weapons but you can't rent a Ford Taurus.
Lastly, with regard to the drinking--if you are in the military and at a military function the base commander can waive the age requirement and let underage individuals drink. So, don't worry, if you are in the military and need a drink you can get one.
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The Pentagon would much rather have a healthy, full-strength, all-volunteer military force than an expensive, byzantine network of "independent contractors" doing more and more grunt work outside the scope of both military and civil law.
Very true. They'd also rather still be in charge of logistics, and they'd rather get the equipment they need rather than the equipment industry wants to build.
Unfortunately, letting the armed forces do things their own way doesn't create value for investors.
People talk of 'The Pentagon' and 'The Military/Industrial Complex' as if there was one giant organization, but there are two competing blocs -- the actual gun-carrying military, and the vast community of lobbyists and contractors around it. These days the military has been losing ground to the contractors.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
[insert generic Orwell quote here]
Single? Canadian? We can help. Visit http://www.l
The pentagon already had all such information from your schools, it's just centralizing it now. If i remember correctly, your standardized test scores (SATs etc) could also be sent to the department of defense and other interested colleges. (unless you specifically forbid ETS from sending out your score range) Now i'm pretty sure that 16 year olds are taking the SAT, and I'm pretty sure that very few of them check the box to make their scores private. I don't think this is exactly newsworthy.
insert into PENTAGON_PROSPECTS
select * from SECRET_GOVMNT_DB
where
age >= 16
and
age
I'm all in favor of the DREAM act. Since 1890, Texas has been dealing with a flood of illegal immigration, which didn't abate after the amnesty program in the 1980s.
Seriously, these are kids who aren't interested in the Service, and they're only signing up because they're being sweet talked into it like a crack whore lookin' for a fix. Soon after they're shipped off for BT do they realize what a mistake they've made.
So, where else is there a pool of semi-muscular blobs that can be turned into killing machines? There are two... a) the prison system and b) illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants want to become citizens. They keep saying when they come over that they'll just work for a few years and go back home. That never happens.
Why not convince these people to actually do something meaningful for a change and stop debasing wages? That's right! These pobrecitos who are picking our oranges and driving our trucks can make MUCH better money in the E3-E6 paygrade... WORLDS better than back in the coloñias or the barrio.
Let these immigrants prove their worth! In exchange for their service they get citizenship and GI eligibility.
Mexico benefits as well as the US here. The military fulfills its quotas and can stop harassing the preppy white kids in schools. Mexico's population declines to a level its government can support. Everybody wins (oh except the kids that won't join up... you get to fight for white collar jobs that haven't left for India).
Comments on our "Orwellian" government are worthless. If the DoD was going to sell/give this information to other goverment agencies, why wouldn't they simply get it from the IRS (also Federal) or your local DMV (local/state, and they have no jurisdiction whatsoever over this without subpoenaing for it with a justifiable legal cause). Tracking you is not a -bad- thing. Most of us have probably registered for Selective Service already, so we're in a database of some kind. This is useful for tracking "undesirables" (as in undesirable for service, not terrorist sympathizers or anything). Studies have shown that an all-volunteer military is significantly more effective than a drafted one, because they WANT to serve their country. Compulsory service (ala Israel) works if people are patriotic/worried enough about their national wellbeing. We, clearly, are not one of those nations. The idea that all your information suddenly becomes available for search by any goverment agency (or even most of DoD) is silly. Goverment agencies are massive things, and everything is very segregated, not only because of departmental pride/antagonism, but because a lot of it is unnecessary/invasive if everyone has access to it. Note: NSA/Homeland Security probably has all this information and more (anybody else remember the massive ramdisk they got?), but your average recruiter doesn't even have access to your school/medical records, much less tax info or anything else that's been suggested.
"The more corrupt a society, the more numerous are its laws." -Tacticus
Actually, why do that? They can just outsource the military instead to India.
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WTF is that? What are you americans waiting to do something with your country?!
If this database is intended to help the DoD keep track of likely recruits, will they purge it annually of the people who graduate? If not, then this is just a front for a full government database of its citizens.
"Memo to myself, do the dumb things I gotta do. Touch the puppet head." -TMBG
Jokes aside..
This is getting sadder and sadder. It seems that the American ppl keep on loosing their freedom and right to privacy every time.
It seems that the US be becoming a big brother policed state funded by Greedy Corporations.
How much do you want to bet that those that opt-out of the recruitment database are automatically opted-in to a database of people to profile as to WHY they opted-out. :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
In Canada (and many other countries) it would go something like this:
Officer: How many girlfriends have you had?
Candidate: None. I'm gay. A real faggot.
Officer: So what. Go pick up your uniform, maggot.
It's a shame the way things have worked out. Done right, you get the right people volunteering, and you have a dedicated corps of people who put their asses on the line for their country. Not because they were ordered to, but because they want to. This is not something to sneer at. Ever.
I considered a military career myself, but for a variety of reasons didn't do it. Something must have rubbed off, though, because people routinely assume I have military background somewhere...
...laura
nuff said
Also - there are ways for high school parents and students to "opt out" of the recruiting campaign. If you're a high school student or parent of such a student, you might find these links helpful:
make world, not war
OK, so let's drop the empty sloganeering, FUD about the draft and such for a few moments. The military exists. It only takes volunteers. To get the needed number of volunteers, the military recruits, which involves advertising.
Any organization which advertises attempts to reach the target most narrowly suited to the message being generated (in this case, preferable to military service). So what is scary about this? What is wrong about this?
Are you arguing that the military shouldn't recruit? If so, are you further arguing that the military shouldn't exist?
If the military should exist and should recruit, what is the problem with the military using the same techniques that every private organization from CocaCola to MoveON uses?
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Well, they already have my draft number, what else would they need?
Maybe the government could use the "dwindling numbers" to shrink down the military, since we don't really need a standing army that's larger than the rest of the world combined.... Who else here thinks the US should go back to its original philosophy of not having a big standing army, since that's one of the reasons it declared and fought for independance from the British?
The role of the military is to turn otherwise rational people into state killers. It is all about the rituals of mind control that perform this transformation. It provides a framework that allow fighters to maintain a feeling of morality while they kill and maim. It is a necessary function of the military NOT to treat you as an adult. You must be broken down into a child and remolded as an adult that the military can use. It is by design that you were treated as a child. You are simply too much of a fully-formed individual to serve in the military.
I love how people can just "assume" you want to take part in it - and then you have to go out of your way and jump through hoops to be able to "easily opt out." It's the same thing with freaking spam mail and all other crap like that.
Go ahead and rant. Go ahead and tell your kids not to listen to the evil recruiters. At that age you virtually gaurantee they will want to join. The military is a valid career alternative for anyone regardless of their highschool grades or economic status. The military cranks out more skilled tradesmen and managers than any other organization or school.
I went from a 2.4 GPA in highschool to operating a nucleap power plant in two years. When I did finally go to college I was at the top of my class. I credit the Navy for gettign me where I am today.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I'm actually surprised they didn't have something like this in the first place. During my senior year of high school in 2003 while I was living in Bismarck ND I received 4-5 pieces of mail from every branch of the military a week, on top of a phone call. I just happened to be in a family considered lower income. None of my friends were getting so much recruiting material thrown at them. One of the recruiters kept pushing that fact that he knew I liked computers and I could work with all sorts of computers in the army. I soon found out that because of the no child left behind act schools had to turn over student's info to recruiters for federal funding. I moved to Portland OR to go into computer science. I was in college for a little over a year and switched majors, so I to Grand Forks ND and will be attending school probably in fall. I have been off the educational grid for about a year because of this. I recently spoke to my mom and she informed me that she has been getting weekly calls from recruiters trying to get my address in Grand Forks. She told me that one of the recruiters said he knew I moved back to North Dakota and just wants to know where exactly. So I cringe to think what its going to be like once I start attending classes again and they can easily get access to my personal info...
It never ceases to amaze that a large majority of the people on this board have an innate aversion to serve the country that has provided them with the most freedom and liberty of ANY government in the history of man. EVERY amercian owes a debt of gratitude to every soldier, sailor, airman, marine, and coast guardsman who serves or has served this country. Without them, you wouldn't be sitting here on slashdot spouting your displaced self-loathing. Only the last couple of generations of Americans are so self-involved that they cannot see the DUTY, the OBLIGATION for every American to repay the debt and serve at least a 2-year commitment their own country. I am an 8-year (disabled, service-connected) veteran and I appreciate the experience, motivation and pride that came with my service. I am now a much more successful person because of what I learned while in the service of my country. As a result, my work shows more motivation and attention to detail than almost any of my co-workers, and employers DO take note of performance. Yes, there were times when what I was called upon to do had a very high "pucker factor". There were times that I almost lost life and limb. I am thankful that I didn't, but that doesn't mean that I should whine, cry or run away from the responsibility to ensure that the Grand Experiment lives on. By all means, hold hands, sing Cumbaya, but realize the necessity of the defense of our country. And if you don't think islamofacism can spread to your back yard, read this: http://www.detnews.com/2005/oakland/0506/22/B04-22 3573.htm
peace, out.
Sheesh, slamming AACP with Overrated is so damn cowardly. Afraid to use a real mod because they'd get marked Unfair in metamod.
Until the next Act. Maybe a classified one. Then the DB connection will happen suddently with no-time-to-react.
Scenario: I'm in college and the Pentagon collects all this info on me. I'm cool with it.
Anyway, I graduate and I'm having trouble getting a job and so on and I'm living at home.
I'd really like for my local recruiter to get a list of people who have recently graduated, but don't have a job and are still living at home and maybe even cross-index that with newly acquired debts (buy a car recently?) so he can call me up and offer me some free training and governmental help with those school loans.
Maybe even flag people in the database as the law enforcement agencies (yes, it can be shared with them) ask for checks on it. Like if you're in a traffic accident and your car is wrecked.
No, I see no possiblity that this will be abused and lots of ways that it will help our young people through a trying time of personal and emotional maturing. Yes.
I'm sure that there never be, under any circumstance, any "evaluation" of the criteria contained in that database to determine someone's "recruitability rating" similar to how your "credit rating" is determined now.
I'm sorry but this government just isn't working out anymore. I can't fully blame the government because people has gotten to complacent with the way things are.
It's suppose to be we the people, a government for the people but when the people stop getting active and giving a fuck, i guess this is the end result of that.
Suppose you are selling a product which "relatively poor" people purchase many times more often than "relatively wealthy" people do. Will you spend your limited sales resources selling to the wealthy or to the poor?
More recruiters in poor areas simply makes fiscal sense for the military. They are spending their marketing resources where they will get the most results. This does not make them evil, just market smart.
Maybe you could argue that the military needs to work to make military service more attractive the the "relatively wealthy" but simply advertising more to people who enlist less is a waste of resources.
The data will be managed by BeNow Inc. of Wakefield, Mass.
Ironically, this corporation happens to fall under one of my compromised IP ranges:
Name: pine.benow.com
Address: 198.136.200.48
Name: tpcmac.benow.com
Address: 198.136.200.49
Name: willow.benow.com
Address: 198.136.200.50
I can go on and on.
Don't worry kids, your SS# is safe with me.
This should make you feel better.
Take that postage paid envelope they send you. Pack it full of their (and other) junk mail, and send it back.
Sends a nice powerful message at their cost that you don't appreciate the junk mail.
Wait a second... I think I just supported vengeful behavior. That's not exactly something I support. I guess I am a hypocrite.
We will never be free of spam, as long as it is this intertwined in our society. When our own government is basically spamming, how could anyone actually take antispam tactics seriously? While I'm sure they're not spamming by the classic definition, I bet this list isn't opt-in :D Sure, it appears it's opt-out, but even in opting out, they're not purging the information, they're just putting it in a database that's off to the side. I bet people who opt out still will get called. And if they do get called, there will be nothing they can do about it. I'm sure the do not call list does not apply.
Instant Karma's gonna get you...
Coming from outside of the USA the current direction of the USA looks really bad.
...
* The USA has nearly 50% of the world military budget.
* There is a rising recruitment pressure in the USA
*
Didn't Orwell say the following
There are therefore two great problems which the Party is concerned to solve. One is how to discover, against his will, what another human being is thinking, and the other is how to kill several hundred million people in a few seconds without giving warning beforehand.
1984 was right after the bomb, so that mission is accomplished, but they still can't read our minds...yet.
"Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
Back in the 60's and early 70's, all of us were subject to the draft. Yeah, the wealthy got out of it by staying in college (clinton was a good example), or by having friends in low places that could get you military positions where you would never be in harms way (bush being the most famous). (of course, when the draft was not needed, you had a number of ppl who simply did not enlist such as Cheney and Rumsfield). Problem was, that the wealthy who were drafted and went to 'nam, then had their family fighting to stop the war. That is, you had wealthy ppl fighting against the war. They had money. They had influence. They had friends in interesting places. And that was hard on the administration.
No, this admin does understand that there is a difference between the wealthy and the poor.
And that is why very few member of congress and none in the white house have their own kids in this military.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
In fact, if Charles Rangel D-NY has his way, a draft will be instituted to force the rich sons and daughters of yuppies to fight for their parent's right to drive cheaply-fueled gas guzzlers.
Good NYT reprint here:
http://www.radicalmiddle.com/military_mirrors.htm
The soldiers currently KIA in Iraq actually fall on one side of a rural/urban demographic line than a white/nonwhite or rich/poor line. This is getting Congress' attention FWIW:
http://www.house.gov/skelton/pr050228.htm
Well, they do have all those pickup trucks in the Heartland. If you want to start a class war, say let them fight for their gas guzzlers.
Me, I say, what do you do when you find yourself deep in a hole? Stop digging.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
I got probably dozens of invites to join the Navy when I was in college. They really seemed to want to put me on a nuclear sub. Isn't this just a different/more efficient method of doing what they're already doing?
You're misreading the implications behind the Pentagon move to database recruitment. There are whole categories of opportunities behind this data which confers advantage based upon access through earned rights.
The part about Women's liberation where they wanted all the priviledges of men will be a National Debate at intersection of Conscription and Liberty.
The Pentagon is fine tuning women's role in the military to get the obstacles to service overcome before women become conscripted with young men. Why? One female driving a forklift, frees up another male trigger finger on the frontlines.
This is not Military Draft olde-style... it is restructuring 21st Century-style through earned citizenship into a capitalist economy. Citizenship, employment, credit, etc... will be means tested at the BeNow Inc. database from 18 yr of age onward for a lifetime.
-r
You're just jealous because you can never get "frist psot" anymore.
... is that the database is running on MS SQL Server 2000.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Of course they're going this route. The military is being run like a business. A business who's main product is killing people and breaking their stuff, but still a business. Do you think that the Pentagon is the only organization that is keeping a big ol' database of me and you and dog named Boo. Geesh. I'd guess that over half of the Fortune 500 is doing that, and not restricting it to just the 16-24 crowd. Major corporations use data mining and database building to mold their pitch in every conceivable way.
The reason it gets the negative press is that we've got an unpopular war. Another duh. An all-volunteer force is a great idea in peacetime, but in war then you have to work harder to recruit people.
Do you want to end the bitching and the databases? Go back to the draft. With NO deferrals and no exemptions except for documented religous aversions to war (i.e. you've gone to Quaker church for the last ## years). When everybody can go to war, chances are low that anybody will go to war.
Starting next week, all passwords will be entered in Morse code
Anyone remember the scene in Fahrenheit 911 where the military recruiters tell the kid he can fill out the information and they will never contact him again? And then after he leaves they laugh because he just signed up for a lifetime of military propaganda at his door? Opt out my ass.
Because people can do math. Our current troop level in Iraq is 130K, which is roughly 25% of the number of troops actually needed to occupy the country. The number of troops actually needed was known before the war but ignored in favor of Rumsfeld's plan of war on the cheap. The military pays the price every day for this shortfall of roughly 350-400K troops.
When Rumsfeld's original plan faltered, he shifted to outsourcing the war to the Iraqis. Unfortunately as with most outsourcing, the Iraqis (while cheap to hire) are not as skilled and not up to the same workload as those they replace. As a result, it is probably going to take two Iraqi soldiers for every US soldier. That means there will have to be 1 million Iraqi soldiers to effectively control the country and allow the US soldiers to come home.
In two years, the US military is estimating that there will be roughly 200K Iraqi soldiers trained. Even keeping the same US troop levels in Iraq, we will still be short the total number of troops needed by about 50% (130K + 200K/2 = 230K). Which means, the insurgency will not be defeated and the war's incessant violence will continue unabated.
At some point in the next 1 to 2 years, a drastic change in troops levels will be required to win the war. (The change is actually needed now but nothing is going to happen until after the congressional elections next year.) When it happens (and it will if we want to win), the draft will have to be considered. It may have to be some hybrid draft to get passed, where those drafted do not go to Iraq but replace those volunteer soldiers that do. But in any case, the currently reality is bad and the future is not bright. The alternative is losing but given the recent reports that Iraq has become a training ground for jihadists, that doesn't seem like a good option.
Can't they design a 1-way hash for their SSN's so when you opt out, only your hash gets added to the DB?
And the next time they try to enlist you, the hash database will be consulted. No personal info.
Selective services already registers you (required by law) if you are a man between ages of 18 through 25. Even if you are a permanent resident. Or on a student visa. This merely widens the record keeping to include a wider age range and both sexes.
TANSTAAFL
Thou shalt not kill.
That's a commandment, is it not?
Why is Bush's gov't looking for more young people to train as professional mass murderers?
What would Jesus do?
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Oh sorry, my goof. It should read: "In Soviet America, Big Brother watches you!!"
Or...
I, for one, welcome our new database-mining governmental overlords!
I, for one, welcome our new-and-improved minimally invasive military recruiting overlords!
I, for one, welcome our war machine overlords! Go Bush!
ACHTUNG! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen.
If the military is only going after the poor kids then why are the vast majority of those serving in the military today from middle class families? The answer is that groups that tend to be anti-military like public school teachers, secondary school teachers, Collage teachers, and the media in the US wants you to believe that the system is designed to be hurtful or discriminatory. It's in fact a lie that everyone seems to buy in to.
No. You're wrong. There is a REASON that this war is BECOMING unpopular.
And tracking kids so the government can pressure them into fighting such a war is the PROBLEM.
No. Look up "Boston Tea Party". Our country was founded upon the belief in certain Rights.
Only recently. Before that, it was because of our vast natural resources and distance from the established armies of the other nations.
You might want to look at the Founding Fathers' views on a standing military.
That sounds a bit too much like "the ends justify the means".
Here's the flaw in that claim.
... but they still don't allow women to vote.
Because some people joined the military and fought and died for Freedom does not mean that everyone who dies in the military furthers Freedom.
Check out Kuwait. We "Freed" them from Iraqi invasion
This "Freedom" thing is a bit tricky, no?
So people who didn't vote for Bush are exempt from this database?
And now you're into "blaming the victim".
Why not just make it illegal for those companies to collect that information on me?
That can mean anything from filing a patent on your new, effective, cold fusion generator to filming your neighbor in the shower.
This is not about "defense of the country". Iraq was no threat to the USofA.
Getting a sample box of Tide == tracking kids to target them for recruitment
Right.
No one "gives" anyone else "Freedom".
And tracking kids is the OPPOSITE of Freedom.
That is correct. But this isn't about forcing them to sign. This is about tracking them to specifically target them.
You use that word a lot, but I don't think you understand what it means.
Okay, but shouldn't I also thank the people who funded the school system and paid the teachers' salaries?
You are, of course, aware tha
From what I've read it takes a few months to train a raw recruit to become a soldier. It takes years to train a high school graduate to write competent software. Who do you think adds more value to our country?
Any going to ask why the military is doing this? I can tell you. See when the recruiters show up to career day, staff at schools tends to tell them to get lost. They are deigned the same access to students to talk about what they can do that is given to some of the worlds largest polluters, and strong arm monopoly holders. Do you think that if they got fair access even just most of the time that this would not need to be done? Like it or not we need a strong military and the attitude toward military service from the public education system is repulsive to the point that congress is forced to pass laws that seem offensive in return. If you want to point fingers, go to school tomorrow and tell you kinds principle that you are for equal rights for everyone, not just institutions that s/he thinks are expectable.
But as someone else said, this information could, and most likely will, eventually be shared with other agencies. That, I think, is the real evil here.
...
The military doesn't have a drinking age - in the US the age is set by state (not federal) law.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
I have a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in buying!
Seriously, does anyone still believe these guys under the fascist Bush administration? They have got to be kidding if they think people are still that stupid.
OOPS! I forgot! Around 49% of the American public supposedly voted for Bush last time. I guess there are some truly gullible, or worse, out there!
A lot of "irrational things", huh? Like him saying before the Iraq war that there were none of the weapons that Bush and Blair knowingly mislead the public about? He was correct, you know. I'm sure it'll hurt your Republican pride to admit that your president lied to you about that, and that Scott Ritter was 100% correct in what he said. And he'll most likely be correct about the invasion of Iran. Double the ouch to your Republican pride! LOL!
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
.....WHY? I am pretty sure that I volunteered for my military service and registered for selective service upon turning 18. This DB tool is not needed and I firmly feel it is not only an intrusion of privacy but a nice waste of tax $$ as well.
"We herd sheep....we drive cattle...we LEAD people! Lead me...follow me...or get out of my way!" GEN George Patton
When you actually believe there is an afterlife, and that after you die your consciousness will continue...this allows you to take bigger risks in combat.
The military gets more bang-per-buck out of religious soldiers...
Blar.
let it be know you like to smoke weed and have a girlfriend in Poland...you will be safe from any potential recruitment.
Didn't Heinlein write a book about just this scenario?
Blar.
And this is a federal offence (since the FBI was after him)?
that all of your network transmissions ARE monitored. Yes? That means that they do know that you are saying that you have no plans to register. In addition, all major ISPs here in USA may or may not be giving up information to the Miltary/CIA/NSA/ or the FBI. Combine that with the DB that is being talked about here, and assuming that you are 16 y.o. and are trolling from your house (which is most likely), then they know who YOU are.
I wonder, is it a crime to not register?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
When martial law strikes, I'm sure those will most likely be the "leftist tree hugging peace loving hippies" as will be so eloquently described in the Pentagon system, who will be arrested and sent to prison camps for not being patriotic. :P
Is it cold in here? I certainly feel a draft.
Is that the same Army whose recruiters attempted to commit two clear ethical violations just in the process of getting him in the door? You're right, sounds like a good influence.
I've had three pretty close friends enlist in the services -- two in the Navy, one in the Marines. The levels of alcohol and drug use they described were frighteningly high. That's anecdotal, okay -- but these were straight arrows going in, and they weren't anywhere near clean while they were in uniform. One at least was more Boy Scout than was maybe good for him before he joined. Two of them have returned to those selves after leaving, but the third is a hard drinking, hard smoking, heavily-tattooed and generally scary fellah now. Wants to talk about how cynical he is about "how things work," mostly.
(This story is basically "The services are desperate to recruit, and they got this 'in' in Bush's education bill to do it with." Why are they desperate to recruit? Because W., having talked so much about the armed forces not being ready for confict during the 2000 campaign, has spent his term in office making those predictions come true on his own watch. Everything the guy claimed about Clinton decimating the military's ability to fight, he's done himself in spades.)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
i knew it man, the goverment are collecting our details and they're gonna randomly make us disappear and turn us into soldiers. the sith have won, we'll be fighting in republic ships with no minds
yes i was given ritalin as a kid...
If you like to watch Barney or any other PBS program, you can take it up the ass.
I'm a student but I'm over 51 and a citizen of another country, so if they call me up, we'll have to have a little 'chat'.
I LIKE PBS Its all I watch 'cause everything else is damn poor. Now PBS is going to be as poor a choice as anything else.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
There is already some organized activity to counter the provision in the No Child Left Behind Act that requires public high schools to hand over private student information to military recruiters. They counter this by supporting, instead, the Student Privacy Protection Act of 2005, which reverses the current legislation and requires schools to first obtain parental permission before releasing private student information to military recruiters.
Here's a link to more information:
http://www.themmob.com/lmca/about.html
--- -a- "I'd love to change the world, but it'd be easier if the universe exposed its API."
http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/information/scripts/5f 01.shtml
"LISA
Dad! The Second Amendment is just a remnant from revolutionary days. It has no meaning today!
HOMER
You couldn't be more wrong, Lisa. If I didn't have this gun, the King of England could just walk in here any time he wants, and start shoving you around. (he starts pushing Lisa) Do you want that? Huh? Do you?"
All you have to do is state you're a member of your local Gays for Communism campus club, and they'll leave you alone.
I can serve my country and still be opposed to the demands of our current government. Bush and Co have not done anything to increase my Freedom. At the moment, it is unclear whether they will have done anything to increase the Freedom of people in Afghanistan or Iraq.Bullshit. Just putting on a uniform is NOT enough to earn respect.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/10/24/muhammad.pr
You're a bit confused on this thing known as "history".
Because some people fought back in the Revolutionary War, does not mean that some mechanic in the Army is the reason I can type this.No. It is only the last couple of generations that have seen their current government use the military to further their own aims rather than to protect the USofA.That's Islamic Fundamentalism, not "islamofacism".
It is very similar to the Christian Fundamentalists you see in the good ol' USofA.
We should get the best people we can in our military and we should train them hard, equip them with the best and only use them when we or our allies are invaded.
Right now we have a military where people are being held in, without the right equipment and being killed in a country that was no threat to us.
It takes a LOT more guts to stand up and say that the government is WRONG in that circumstance than to just go along rah-rah-rah support.
I'm in the Army. I also refuse to learn Spanish just so I can do my job.
i couldnt have said it better!
~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
Who served in the military?
... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
Prominent Democrats
Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service
Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)
Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career.
Prominent Republicans
Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered
House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)
Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.
Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight
Names, SSNs, Driving History, HS/College, Courses, etc.
Sounds to me like another massive collection of private identity information to be hacked into and distributed.
It's hard to blame a theif for stealing someone's identity when it's stolen from the government who stole it first.
Does this mean those without high school diplomas and college degrees are at an advantage? Talk about turning the tables!
-atk
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Navy and Air Force recruiting are still doing ok. Most jobs in the Navy and AF are pretty safe and away from the roadside bombs. Plus the job market for 18 year olds out of high school isn't so hot either.
We have enough people and equipment in the military to do lots of missions like humanitarian and peacekeeping. We can still destroy any other conventional army in the world. We just don't have the people (or the stomach) to do an imperial occupation. Call it what you will, that's the mission now.
Actually, it's because people fought the system
Except here. Here we just convinced Queen Victoria that responsible government was better than losing part of her realm.
Oh? At what point did "some dictator" launch an invasion of America that threatened our safety so? When did dictators assume control of all of the other fucking democracies in the world, the ones where you can "post self-righteous crap" without thanking a fucking military machine?
I must really be out of touch with history, I dunno.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
That's a load of crap. I was a teacher for four years, and while I can certainly rant plenty about the deterioration of localized public schooling, I can tell you that especially in depressed and urban areas, you'd be hard pressed to find a teacher who wouldn't counsel a student considering the military to go for it. The vast majority of teachers I've worked with in the midwest are aredent supporters of our armed forces and the character/career building it provides to young men and women.
Take a look at communities like East Chicago; Gary, IN; Flint, MI; Johnstown, PA; Viroqua, WI. These are public schools, and many students from these school systems graduate and serve in the military.
If you don't like the fact that enlistment is low in mid-to-upper-class suburbia, direct your anger elsewhere. Not every kid needs to grow up to be a soldier. We need civilian leaders, too.
My problem with this program is that as active as the government seems to be in enlisting kids (yes, at 16 or 18, you're still a kid), we as a society seem disinterested in encouraging civil leadership in our poorer communities. It would be nice if the military was an "attractive option" instead of the "only option" for these kids.
--- -a- "I'd love to change the world, but it'd be easier if the universe exposed its API."
You forgot: Bill Clinton, hid out in Russia to avoid the draft
Get a FREE Sony PS3
I'm currently in a cold war with Capatial One. They like to send me 2 per week. However part of those mailings is postage paid return envelopes. So I send them back, usually filled with rocks (lots of tiny rocks). Now perhaps because of this, perhaps for other reasons they decided to make a different style of envelope that has a hole in the front where you need to place an insert with the return address. Rocks fall out of the hole. However I have a roll of packing tape and the rock mailings continue.
As soon as I stop getting mailings, they stop getting rocks.
Here's a big one.
:)
Senator Bill Frist.
Feel free to google for more information on others.
Oh, BTW, and the paranoia has been justified by the actions of the "Republican" party and their closeness with fundamentalist christians with money.
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
People who opt out will not automatically end up on nofly lists, they will not automatically be excluded from grant lists.
:)
The reason is simple. To end up on a nofly list a number of weighted parameters are added up. By itself opting out has not enough weight to exceed the threshold.
Anyway, people only find out the database exists after the recruiter tells them. Too late to opt out then, innit?
Ok, so maybe I'm sarcastic. And cheating too.
But talking of databases, think of the good they can do have people opt-in on everything.
I'm sure a recruiter can be quite persuasive if he has access to the surfing logs of these young male teenagers.
You don't want your mommy to find out, do you?
Woops , did it again. Sorry
This is technically true. The discussion went on in the DoD:
Then they started setting up the databases, designing the draft cards, started putting out the call for draft board volunteers, and hired Widmeyer Communications to "secure compliance and... mold public opinion" to support it.
Rumsfeld employs classic Bush Administration spin tactics by changing the subject, arguing that the Administration has never considered bringing back the Vietnam-era draft, which is true. But the substance of the claim is that a Skills draft will be instituted, which Rumsfeld cleverly avoids by talking about something completely different.
Where I come from, this is called lying.
"It's Dot Com!"
I am very happy to hear that the school districts that you have worked in as far as you can obvserve as a single staff member in those districts seems to not treat military recurters like pure evil itself but it's not indicitive of the country as a whole. Look harder into how this piece of legislation came about. I can sit here and tell you about hundreds of reports of recuiters being baned from schools, teachers telling kids to stay away from them, faculty of preaching anti-military 'leason plans', teachers taking away recuriting forms and swag from students, Recruiters being called names and harrassed by faculty and even going so far as trying to sue them to keep them off campus but you are not going to believe me. However I do ask you to do the research yourself. This problem is huge and has gotten worst and worst in the last 15 years or so. Do I think that civilian leadership needs to be improved in poor communities? Sure but most of the problems occure in middle to upper class districts. (Remember most of the country is middle class)
Why duplicate the information you already have with the social security numbers and mandatory draft registration?
My sig is as boring as you...
Still think Tinfoil hats are for crazy people?
I'm sorry to break it to ya, but this is what mainstream Christianity believes. They believe in a personal god that (at least to some extent) manipulates world events. This being is completely invisible and traceless and supposedly exists in heaven (which is protrayed in the bible as existing above the earth.) We were "made in his own image", so it's not too inaccurate to call it a man--oh yeah, and God is almost always referred to as "He."
"An invisible man in the sky that manipulates world events" is an entirely valid description, and like it or not this belief does tend to fly in the face of logic and rationality. Mind you, I'm not dissing Christianity here--there are more things to life than common sense and rationality, and I don't think most atheists understand the true importance of religion--but when explained to an outsider, it's still a silly-sounding belief, and one that will very naturally lead to some degree of ridicule.
In a sense, the parent's post wasn't flamebait, but most flavors of Christianity are by nature of their very claims. If you are a Christian, then it's your responsibilty to take those flames in stride, and avoid attacking them with flames of your own.
IIRC - when a young man turns 18, he's REQUIRED to go to the Post Office and complete the Selective Service card so if there is a draft, he's on the list...
... so when they have the info, why do they need it again? Is the Army really going to say "oh yeah, we really need those geeks with the 4.0's? or we needum grunts - get the football players with the 1.0's?"...
I think you had to do it between 18 and 24... And you had to certify that you did it under penalty of perjury as a condition of receiving federal student loans.
It's all bullshit so it can be used for *something else* as a way to numb us against the privacy issues...
If everyone opt'd out of this shit, they'd stop doing it. But most people don't take the time to do so...
1. We'll pour huge amounts of money into hiring more mercenary forces to augment our armed forces;
2. We'll reinstate the draft in one form or another;
3. We'll claim victory, pull our troops out, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
4. We'll claim victory, ensconce a substantial number of troops in hardened, remotely-located permanent bases, and hope that the Iraqis can sort it out themselves;
5. We'll get a massive surge in recruitment and will be able to meet our military needs with a full-strength volunteer service.
6. The insurgency will die and a stable Iraqi government will take hold.
You forgot
7. Profit!!!
I'm at college as an undergraduate. I'm 30. I'm a USPR, not a US Citizen.
I've been invited by mail recently to join the Army on two occasions. Problem is that I was too old when I came here to sign up for Selective Service. But I am not too old to receive advertisments/invitations for me to join the Army.
I wonder if many people over the age of 30 have been receiving the invites to join the Army. Am I really too old? At 32 I'd be too old for the Territorial Army, but unsure of age limits for US. Not that I would sign up but there is this curious cat in me...
It is okay to murder innocents becuase they don't believe in God anyway. They're not really real people in God's eyes.
My country is six feet tall, covered in white skin with hills of long dark-red hair growing atop, two anti-masonic near-sighted eyes, and a mouth of teeth. I need to defend this country before I can defend an other or Questionable country. The more I learn about my country, the better I can help others. I need to be careful, because there are some clonse out there that try to say that I voluntarily donate money to them when in fact it was stolen at the barrel of a gun. My country is the people, not lifeless soil hidden behind two-peice suits; living water.
without prejudice
Seems like college kids are willing to give up their information to some shadowy national database... /self included =(
Call them, or have your recruitable friends/sons/daughters call them. . .
:) Make
BeNOW may discover that helping
the government violate the rights of millions of young people carries
more responsibilities than they thought. Who is managing this thing. Do they have their opt out system up on day 1?
Think about nationwide call-ins of people asking them to take them off the list.
800 numbers are not cheap, but they have a responsibility to hear us on this.
Staffing people to handle that volume of
calls (think a thousand a day) is even more expensive, but we are within our rights to request to be taken off the list.
I just called and talked to a nice lady in the sales department who took
the time to refer me to the Marine Corps. They also have a receptionist
and a company directory. I am sure it is your duty to let as many
people as possible in the company know that you would like to get taken
off the list. To put it on the company "To Do" list as it were.
sure when you talk to someone, they take the time to give you the full contact info for
the guy over at the Pentagon who is handling these inquiries.
Be nice, but make sure they know you are calling to be taken off the
list. And make sure you talk to a real person, or at least leave a
lengthy voicemail about how they can get back to you with information
about how to get taken off the list. Then use that information.
Contact info for the company is below.
www.be-now.com
BeNOW
500 Edgewater Drive
Suite 525
Wakefield, MA 01880
800 660 5125 tel
sales@benow.com
..for our government to toss civil liberties out the window. You know this is going to be expanded to the rest of the population at the drop of a hat when no one is watching the store. Heck no one is watching the store now!
They already have a database.. it is called the selective service. That is MORE than enough!
I might be beating a dead horse, but the government already keeps all this information plus more on you.
The IRS knows where you live, where you work, what you own, and can find out any sort of financial transaction that you made with the exception of cash-only transactions less than $10,000. Public primary schools, and ALL universities store all your educational information and must give it to the Department of Education on demand or lose funding. All your health information is given to the government by your health insurance company as part of the "regulatory process"... unless your health care is taken care of by the government, in which case the government has even more information.
Sorry people, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a police-state without police. It is impossible for the government to provide all the services you want, and to put all the restrictions on behavior that your demand, without putting together massive databases and tracking / survalence of the population. So the government is creating yet another database. Big deal.
Everything has a price. The price you pay for not breathing second hand smoke at a bar, or for making sure no-one tells jokes that might offend you, or for "free" as in beer municipal wifi, is a complete and total loss of privacy.
How can your Big Brother take care of you if he doesn't know things about you?
don't they do this already?
when I was looking at colleges I received a letter from the Navy Seals, which contained a lot of information about my educational background (IE CS (I had a few awards from state CS stuff which probably grabbed their attention) as well as mentioning things I was interested in (IE "rock climbing, hiking, skiing etc)) as well as an emphasis on nautical stuff (I have been around boats my whole life)
so that was pretty interesting, but...
then my younger brother started getting the same kind of stuff from them in regards to HIS activities IE your endurance from running would help... or your nautical expertise would be a great advantage.
but then he was diagnosed with diabetes... and the letters stopped almost INSTANTLY.
still gets letters from the other branches though (army, etc).
so this all sounds like stuff they already do on a small scale being expanded to all branches.
Nail, meet hammer. Perfect.
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
Second, as conservatives point out, Muslims aren't Christians so it's OK to kill them. Their Bible says so.
To date, there is no requirement, but a presumed requirement. Ignorance is the new replacement for charagma. You just assigned these children as chattel to that so-called unrevocable contract; the beginning of all requirements for corporate registrations, harassment from credit monopolies and related fictions; created a perpresture in all upper-case letters. Did you not know that only God can birth children into the world? Read the Constitution for the nearest state because it needs to acknowledge God before it can acknowledge the people. Use negotiable-instruments law, accept for value under threat/duress/coercion, and dba Liveing-Child to UNDEAD CHILD HELL.
without prejudice
I know this is going to be seen as "just more fringe political B.S." by some - but the last few administrations seem like clear evidence to me that it's so.
If the L.P. could garner enough voter support to be viable, their political attitudes and agenda would finally break the cycle. But with the "Republican" vs. "Democrat" status-quo we're working under today - no matter who gets elected, indiividual rights and freedom gets further trampled on. Under the Clinton administration, you had acts like the D.M.C.A. signed into law. With Bush, you have soliders being sent off to die for a war that seems no more likely to ever be won than the "War on Drugs" of the 80's.
Just today, I believe a Supreme Court ruling decided that states DO have the rights to take away individuals' property for ANY reason (not just if they can show it is in the greater public interest to do so). These types of changes happen right under our noses all the time, slowly chiseling away at those grand concepts like "Freedom" that we supposedly fight for in the services.
A huge part of vietnam was fought on the water and in the air. Vehicle commanders, air and water, are, by default, officers, albeit fighting officers. If you took those figures and eliminated the pilots and boat commanders, your officer fatalities fall way down...
You don't see a problem in outsourcing defense?
but they still keep calling to recruit and now they have more information because of my opt out form. I should feel bad about how I treat the recruiters and bad mouth the government, but I don't. If they were a company they'd have to prosecute themselves.
-Tim Louden
You can't have a police-state without police. It is impossible for the government to provide all the services you want, and to put all the restrictions on behavior that your demand, without putting together massive databases and tracking / survalence of the population. So the government is creating yet another database.
Right on -- you hit that nail square on the head.
-kgj
-kgj
Student C seems to exhibit several of the marked sociopatic/left-wing-bleeding-heart-liberal tendencies ennumerated in section VII of DocumentX (Identifying Potential Threats to the Current Establishment). Mark Student C's file for observation, and potential action.
and... further on, down the road...
Agent Jones... this journalist is being a real p.i.t.a. I looked up his file, and it looks like he was Student C, back in high-school. Why don't you leak some of the information on his juvinile record, to the syndacates... just the juicy stuff... get him off our case.
then... eventually...
It looks like the following students deviate significantly from the preferred classification of Student Type A and Student Type B... mark them down for disciplinary action.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
If you're gonna libel the entire Army, at least do it with a crime that's not as falsely reported as rape. And give links to actual websites, it's not my job to provide evidence for your claims, I'm quite capable of typing in Army rape in google.
These false rape allegations constitute 41% the total forcible rape cases (n = 109) reported during this period.
Warren Farrell, in his book The Myth of Male Power (1993, p.322), cites an Air Force study that investigated 556 charges of rape by servicewomen. In that investigation, 27% ADMITTED that their accusations had been false either before or after being confronted with lie detector tests.
Unfounded charges of assault, which like rape is often productive of conflicting testimony, comprise only 1.6% of the total compared to the 8.4% recorded for rape.
Province-wide, the system reports that about 5.7 percent of all such allegations are false. Meanwhile, analyses of incidents involving a Toronto police squad that restricts itself to handling major rape cases where the assailant is unknown to the victim, a whopping 30 percent of cases -- 69 out of 232 cases -- turned out to be false.
The fact that you choose the emotionally charged crimes of rape and domestic violence to back up your claim, instead of, oh, say, violent crime in the army, lends credence to the conclusion that for whatever reason you have some axe to grind with the military.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Hello merchant Marine. I don't know what you are selling today. You are selling FREEDOM just as the Rothschilds and Morgans. No thanks, I already have one that is better. I was born with it, it tends to run out every once in a while, but I give it a free-Will refill. No, you can't see it!
I en-joy my freedoms because its otherwise unjoyable; I need to say they are joy, so I can identify who is willing to hold them ransome if I do not perform as an murderer from time to time. Do you realize how difficult it is to maintain my freedom to shower? Ask any rank geek; they're freedom is waining cold, can't you comprehend? My country is six feet tall with red hair on the peaks; I'll defend that first so I can defend others.
The landing is closed, their is NOT SAIL on the mast; the state flag is right-side up on the aft, 50 standing stripes; thus no national emergency. I freely come and freely go; no amendments beyond the 13th.
Har!
without prejudice
Maybe? No, Canadian?
The parent makes a compelling argument and lays bare the propaganda that the US military as it is currently constituted serves any other purpose than to advance an imperial foreign policy of occupation.
The numbers he offers are compelling and the sources check up. It would suck for this respone to get lost. So, mods do the right thing, even if you disagree with the overall promise, he argued his case well.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
http://democracyrising.us/content/view/196/164/ This is an excellent article and it's the best I've read on the draft rumors. Summary: The rumors of secret draft plans are only rumors, but the military can't keep using mercenaries to account for their poor recruiting numbers. Sooner or later, the merc recruiters are hiring the same people at higher cost who could've served in the military and bodies are needed on the ground in the field. Like with police, you need support people for every person on duty. You can retrain some troops for infantry combat and ship them, but you can't cannibalize all corps and lose the support people to win the war. Nevermind that we went to war without any clear victory conditions set.
-Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither. -Ben Franklin
Democrats
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71. * David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72. * Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72. * Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade. * Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam. * Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII. * John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts. * Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea. * Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. * Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53. * Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. * Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91. * Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. * Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal. * Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit. * Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart. * Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V. * Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star. * Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57 * Chuck Robb: Vietnam * Howell Heflin: Silver Star * George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII. * Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311. * Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. * Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953 * John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters. * Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
Republicans
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. * Dennis Hastert: did not serve. * Tom Delay: did not serve. * Roy Blunt: did not serve. * Bill Frist: did not serve. * Mitch McConnell: did not serve. * Rick Santorum: did not serve. * Trent Lott: did not serve. * John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business. * Jeb Bush: did not serve. * Karl Rove: did not serve. * Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism. * Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. * Vin Weber: did not serve. * Richard Perle: did not serve. * Douglas Feith: did not serve. * Eliot Abrams: did not serve. * Richard Shelby: did not serve. * Jon Kyl: did not serve. * Tim Hutchison: did not serve. * Christopher Cox: did not serve. * Newt Gingrich: did not serve. * Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor. * George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty. * Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies. * B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea. * Phil Gramm: did not serve. * John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. * Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve. * John M. McHugh: did not serve. * JC Watts: did not serve. * Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years. * Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard. * Rudy Giuliani: did not serve. * George Pataki: did not serve. * Spencer Abraham: did not serve. * John Engler: did not serve. * Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer. * Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.
Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve. * Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.') * Bill O'Reilly: did not serve. * Michael Savage: did not serve. * George Will: did not serve. * Chris Matthews: did not serve. * Paul Gigot: did not serve. * Bill B
"In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
"Thou shalt not kill" is in the religious cannons of Christians, Jews and Muslims -- Muslims through Abraham (it is in their sharia ?sp? law, from the Hadith), Jews (Torah), and Christians by Old Testament. So. All from Moses. And Moses was guided by God. Ultimately, the 10 Commandments came from God, not Moses. The very definition of sin for 3 major world religions all comes from the same source.
Jesus was a Jew, and instructed his students not to sin.
When GW Bush says he is guided by the question "What would Jesus do?" apparently GW thinks Jesus "Turn-the-other-cheek" Christ would bear false witness against Saddam Hussein for the 911 attacks, bear false witness a second time regarding Iraq having wmd's, and then bear false witness a third time regarding Saddam's intention to use them. Then GW-Jesus would commit murder 20,000 times against Iraqi civilians, among others, and then he'd steal the oil under their graves.
My question is how the Christian coalition could possibly be deceived by such a monster. GW's clearly not guided by anything Jesus ever did, or said.
ps. It's sad, to me, that slashdot has so much anti religious tendency that it cannot even see the strength of the christian religion AGAINST a GW Bush. I got downmodded to flamebait just for using religious doctrine to emphasize GW's hypocracy in the draft policy.
If you call yourselves open minded then stop being so narrow.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
It never ceases to amaze that a large majority of the people on this board have an innate aversion to serve the country that has provided them with the most freedom and liberty of ANY government in the history of man.
Maybe it's because of people like that that the US has as much freedom and liberty as it does? Think about that for a bit, and look at history. Serving your country blindly (with words like 'duty', 'obligation', 'debt of gratitude' - please) in the name of self-defence even when it's not actually for self-defence means you're helping the government take away freedom, not defending freedom.
But I don't want a police state! I don't know anybody who would want a police state.
Why on gods green earth would anybody in their right mind want a police state?
Police states only take away from peoples rights and lead to societies like communism! And why after the soviet uninon and china not to mention korea would anybody in their right mind want that!
Police states NO! comunism NO! loss of privacy NO! NO! NO! a Million times NO!
You keep the cake and eat it i'll be happy just to lick the pan thank you very much.
Coward? Coward! Thems fighten words!!
WTF does Age college mean!
"The Washington Post is reporting that the Pentagon is working with a marketing firm to create a database of students ages 16 through college to help them identify recruits. "
They've had this for years.
Back when I was a senior in high school, I got a recruiter call me up. My mom answered the phone, told him I wasn't interested, and got into a conversation with the guy... turns out he could quote exactly what my militant pacifist (yes, they exist) sister told him when _she_ got a recruitment call the year before.
Not only that, the past several years my parents have hosted exchange students (Russia and Germany). The two most recent have gotten recruitment propaganda. Evidently, this database doesn't track whether or not you're actually a U.S. citizen!
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
Correct, was running MS SQL Server 2000... :)
Opt-out is easy. What you do is you send the kids home with a form that says that the school wants to send their child's personal information to the government for keeping in their database. This form has a "yes/no" and a line for a signature. Basically the same as any other permission slip. Then the child returns to school with the signed form. Here is where the magic happens:
If the parents marked "no", then they never collect and send the child's information in the first place.
There is absolutely no reason to keep the name of the child in a government "opt-out" database because the government should not be receiving the child's information to have to compare to the opt-out database.
Yes, opt-out becomes more difficult when you automatically and without express permission gather information about students en masse, and then try to "un-collect" their information after the fact.
So the simple solution is to not do that. Opt-out is simple, privacy is maintained, and if you opt-out there is no record of you in any database at all.
Instead, they are keeping your information anyway, but in a separate database. That isn't opt-out at all!
The enemies of Democracy are
From WordNet 2.0: He's managed to sidestep the US Congress to initiate a war (of aggression, no less, which in itself violates the laws of the Unted States) against an opponent whose capacity for resistance had been...minimal. Hint: search for who said, "...unable to raise conventional forces against his neighbors...". Once you've answered that to your own satisfaction, ask "What are the odds that this person could have bent the president's ear at some point?".
Oh, and in case I was unclear, I got two words for you: due process.
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
It's about time to bring up a bill requiring all 16 year olds to donate 4 years of service to the USA - they would get a GI bill school money of course, and three hots and a cot.
;)
This would help ease up the burden on public schools, by putting large numbers of kids to work for good ole' Uncle Sam.
It wouldn't have to be a direct Draft into the military, 16 year olds could put Americorps as their first choice, national parks as their second choice, and walking point on house to house searches in oil rich countries as their third choice.
- Of course the government does the picking...
I'm not saying the members of our military aren't smart, skilled, or able. They just don't need the same level of training as many civilian professionals.
Mexico, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq never seriously threatened American security. We fought wars there for economic gain or political posturing.
Every war hawk brings up the Revolution and the World Wars to justify a strong military. I don't see those types of conflicts in today's world.
"Why are we here?" "You have been chosen to defend the starleague against Zur and the Codan Armada". "Oh, NO!" -- The Last Starfighter
Nukes, not troops, keep other countries from even thinking of attacking us. Personally, I think we ought to outlaw China tomorrow and start bombing!
The reason I chose rape and domestic violence is because it was what I knew from writing an essay on the subject that it was markedly greater in violent careers such as police officers, abortion doctors, slaughterhouse workers and armed forces. I guess I should include the fact that suicide is greater as well but not yet great enough to stop the rape and domestic violence unfortunately.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Awesome post.
I got probably no less than 50 recruitment flyers my senior year of college. And they were *targeted* I was a physics major, and every single letter referenced this.......
Let's look at the founding fathers stances on a standing army. The Fedralists such as Hamilton and Adams, were greatly in favor of a staning army as the means to defend the nation and enforce the strong central powers. Jeffersonion Republicans such as Jefferson (duh) and Jackson thought that levying taxes to fund a nation force was an enfringement on states rights and that that a military in general was an economic burdon So to put it bluntly, don't use "the founding fathers say . . ." as an argument, because they rarely agreed, on this or on anything else.
Why haven't you?
Who's to say he hasn't? Moreso, these chicken hawks might be a little more cautious about war if it their own kids stood some danger of dying in it, as opposed to someone else's kids.
Thank you for your unbiased list.
Way back when they had the lottery, the one where you could win a free trip to 'Nam for your eighteenth birthday (this was way before PowerBall) the local Selective Service boards were routinely getting lists of eligible young men from public high schools. It wasn't considered any big deal. They actually prosecuted guys who failed to register. I had friends who left the country, who went to jail, and who got shot. But things have gotten much better. Now, to get kids killed far from home, you have to ask them first, or at least tell them it's just like the video games you've been peddling.
> "Preying"? You make it sound like the recruiters are kidnapping these kids and pressing them into service.
Uh... I don't know if you haven't been paying attention, but at least two recruiters in Seattle have been doing exactly that.
since you decided to stray OT with a personal soapbox, I will bite:
how do you get mulch, rock, and plants home for your garden ?
how do you bring home your new ladder for working on your deck/roof/gutters/etc ?
how do you bring home your new washer and dryer ? (insert large furniture or appliance here)
before you diss pickup trucks, get a life.
then you may find out why pickup trucks are useful
for more than just getting from point a to point b,
which is all the electric/hybrids are good for
it is easy to pick out a choice someone else has made and diss it, seeing as how you are not affected.
try turning the finger back at yourself more often and you wont come off as such an
impetuous jerk who wishes death on someone because of the vehicle they use.
No, the most feared sentence in the English Language today is the one that begins "To serve you better..." followed by fine print explaining how you're going to get screwed.
Hence publc antipathy towards things like social security "reform."
I had no idea that Toronto was now in America. I choose studies from North America because that's what was available, and we are in a story about the American military. As for "where there are studies [online] to prove anything.", prove it, and then disprove the studies from The Archives of Sexual Behavior, the FBI, Air Force, and Toronto PD. Then provide proof for your claim of rape and domestic violence.
You say you choose these subjects because you wrote an essay. Fine. Let's see the studies that you drew those conclusions from. Until then, the point stands that you have an axe to grind with the military by choosing emotional subjects.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You asked for it, you got it. While I don't have time to research each country you inquired about, I'll just do a few that I'm aware of right off the top of my head.
In most of the european countries and Australia, the average citizen is not allowed to own firearms. If they are, they are severely restricted and hanguns are right out.
In Germany, you are not allowed to deny the holocaust. In America, even if you are a complete nutjob, you have the freedom of speech to say anything you like politically, regardless of how wacky it is.
In The Netherlands, you can be picked up for any reason and be held up to 14 days even if you are not an actual suspect in a crime, and the police do not have to show just cause to do so.
In Canada, it is illegal to say all kinds of things, including disparaging certain groups of people and talking bad about the government in some ways.
I could probably go on, given enough time to do some research, but you get the idea.
Get this straight, I'm not a cool-aid drinking republican. Pres. Bush has done plenty that I disagree with, but Gitmo is not one of them. I've been to Gitmo, albeit before the prison was there. What I do disagree with is the treatment of Jose Padilla, he was a CITIZEN picked up INSIDE the country. He deserves due process and he should either be charged and tried, or released.
What I was alluding to was that a person should not have a problem serving his COUNTRY (not to be confused with a particular administration). I swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, not the Bush or Clinton administrations that I served under. There is a very distinct difference. In fact, in my original post, I never said I supported the war, only pointed out that there is an aversion to serving one's country. That was an assumption that a lot of people made, but it was partially incorrect.
... I didn't want to start a class war. But to keep on topic the DoD is doing their recruting for what a lot of people (especially outside the US) think is only the first of a string of wars to fight for cheap oil. Who's next on the list? Cuba? Venezuela? Iran?
This is still on topic because high school students and parent should be asking these questions: Will this war bring Iraq eventual peace and freedom in spite of the bogus circustances under which it was begun, and will it have been found to have been conducted for the right reasons?
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"