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Haiku, actually.

You have just articulated the major perceptual obstacle between you and the kernel developers. The kernel developers aren't doing it to scratch your itches - you don't pay them. They're doing it to scratch their own itches, or else to scratch their employers' itches. If you want an operating system with 'a neat line between "system" and "applications"', go away and write one (or pay someone else to write one). Come back and tell us about it when you're done.

If there was a big community that wanted to coalesce around a desktop OS, it would have coalesced around Haiku or AmigaOS. It never has. Why? Because the people who want a desktop OS mostly don't want to do the work.

As a self proclaimed nerd I would like to see a linux distro that actually did something revolutionary.

Well, time to move to Haiku.

We applaud your effort in bandaging the security holes present in Windows, but we'll still continue to criticize the actual implementation. You would've been better off gutting and reimplementing the NT kernel with security in mind at the get go and making it POSIX compatible. Then taking a queue from Apple, you could have written a compatibility layer (or adopting one, *cough*Wine*cough*).

But you need to understand your definition of old is a bit off. A 3GHz processor with 1 GB of RAM is not a typically old computer. A typical old and fast computer will more likely be in the 1 to 2GHz range with 512MB RAM. Someone running a computer under 1GHz would not be surprising either. To automatically write off old/minimal hardware as incapable of running graphic accelerated desktop is a falsehood because that is what you imply in order to make Vista to run on such hardware. One only needs to look at Compiz Fusion to realize that's untrue.

So your claim that Vista runs on minimal hardware is dependent upon your (arguably faulty) definition of what you consider minimal which includes giving up a modern GUI and settling for a "classic" one. You seem to be as disconnected with what is actually out in the install base as your management. And no, upgrading one's entire infrastructure to the latest and greatest is not a cost-effective solution (or an environmentally conscious one). There's no need for you to apologize for the fact that your personal spending budget for computer hardware is larger than your average consumer, but don't go assuming that what you buy is typical of what the average consumer buys.

Come back to me when you can get a modern version of Windows (with a usable, minimal GUI) running on a P-100. Yes that's not old hardware... that's ancient. In fact, my router has more processing power. I've done a full-fledged installation with Linux and since Haiku appears to have more flash and pizazz, I'll try switching to that when they hit a 1.0 release.

Full disclosure: this post was written on a 2.5 year old 2Ghz 1GB RAM XP box.

http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/understanding_the_design_and_requirements_of_multithreaded_applications

There is a fairly recent vmware environment maintained by haikuware.com

The Feb. 9th release is http://www.haikuware.com/view-details/development/app-installation/74-weekly-super-pack-feb9th-r23934

It contains a fairly diverse set of old beos apps which are function in haiku as well.

In terms of compiling the project and installation to a partition, doing this from linux is by far the easiest route due to the lack of an installer and tested self-hosting.

http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/installing_haiku_to_a_partition_from_linux

Hope this helps.

It would have been nice for the summary to include a link to the Haiku OS site.

A direct link in the summery would have been nice:
http://www.haiku-os.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_(operating_system)

#1 Develop X86 versions of it to run on PC systems. Use UAE to run the older 68K Amiga software on it.

#2 Develop PPC versions of it for the Amiga PPC, PowerMac, and CHRP hardware sets so people with older systems can run it as well.

#3 Get better development tools for it. Developers want to be able to write with more than C++, Python, Free Pascal, AREXX and legacy AmigaDOS tools. Get Novell to port the Mono Development system to AmigaOS 5, get Delphi ported, get RealBASIC and TrueBASIC ported, get Ruby, Perl, Smalltalk, XBASIC, GCC, and Java ported as well.

#4 Get software developers to write AmigaOS 5 ports of their popular software. Get OpenOffice.Org, StarOffice, Quicken, Turbo Tax, Photoshop, Lotus Smartsuite, etc ported.

#5 Get Blizzard, and other game makers to write AmigaOS 5 versions of their popular games.

#6 Get the F/OSS projects ported to AmigaOS 5, like Firefox, Thunderbird, Eurdora, GNUCash, Apache, CVS, The Gimp, etc ported.

#7 Port WINE to the AmigaOS 5 X86 version, and have it built in. Also work on the OSFree project to give the ability to run OS/2 programs. Also work with the Haiku OS project to run BeOS applications on AmigaOS 5. This way you can run software written for Windows, OS/2, and BeOS on one OS, a feat never before done.

#8 Port NDIS Wrapper to use Windows drivers for AmigaOS 5, in case we cannot find any native Windows drivers. Also allow Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OSX drivers to work as well.

#9 Work in parallel with the Amiga Research OS that AmigaOS 3.5 was based on, so that they can give AROS AmigaOS 5.0 features.

#10 Get Virtual Machines ported to AmigaOS 5.0 like VMWare, Bochs, QEMU, Parallels, etc. Also get emulators ported like MAME, MESS, VICE, UAE, Stella, ZNES, SNES, Virtual Gameboy Advance, Basilisk II, VMac, ported to the Amiga OS 5 system.

...or check out Haiku, an open source BeOS replacement in development. http://haiku-os.org/

is improve the kernel so that it can use Windows drivers as well as Linux drivers to solve the hardware incompatibility that Linux suffers from.

If I were to improve an application it would be WINE, adding in better DirectX support and more support for Windows games so we could convert the Gameheads from Windows to Linux with WINE, and it would affect the sales of Windows.

Linux lacks a DRM media player, right now Windows has the advantage with Internet movie rentals and other media files that can play on Windows, but not Linux. You would need a freeware media player that can handle the DRM of iTunes/Quicktime, Windows Media Player, Real Player. Of course it cannot be under the GPL, and it cannot be bundled with Linux, but it can be an optional download for Linux users who want to use it.

If I had millions to spend, I'd have Windows Game Developers develop popular games for Linux to prove that there can be a commercial games market. Get Blizzard, Electronic Arts, 2K, Activision, etc seed money to rewrite or port their popular games to Linux.

If I had millions more to spend, I'd have application companies develop software like Wordperfect Office, Lotus Smartsuite, Photoshop, Quark Express, Paintshop, and other popular applications to Linux. I'd also give Mozilla seed money to write open source versions of Word processors, Spreadsheets, Presentation Software, and other Office software for Linux and multiple platforms that can use the MS-Office file formats, as well as open source file formats. The Mozilla code has an HTML editor that can be the basis for a good Word processor. It can also be used to tweak it into a spreadsheet and presentation software.

If I had millions more to spend, I'd give money to the OSFree project to get OS/2 applications to run under Linux, the Haiku OS project to get BeOS applications to run under Linux, the Amiga Research OS project to get AmigaDOS/AmigaOS applications to run under Linux, and I would fund money into a project to make an application to translate OSX API calls to Linux ones, so Linux can run OSX applications. Then Linux would be able to run almost any software from almost any OS platform, and people won't be able to complain of a lack of applications for Linux.

For those who want a Free/Open Source OS aimed specifically at the desktop, and ignoring all the server side code that forces the kernel to be less efficient at desktop tasks, take a look at http://haiku-os.org/

If someone want to see BeOS and it's open source counterpart in action and you live close to san-francisco, try to attend waltercon 2007 in august http://haiku-os.org/ (registration are open).

On the subject of multithread, it could be interesting if individual or computer store could bring some mad hardware for testing purpose. The amount of knowlegable folk present + the usual casual feel of the event would make that very possible think.

Multithreaded won't be optional any more.[...] Given that most machines are already starting to come default with 2 cores, and you can fit 8 cores (2 CPUs) in a nice desktop package, it's pretty clear that it's going to be a requirement.

For info: the Haiku website is http://haiku-os.org/

The problem with SoC is that the participants are like (inexperienced) contractors to the project. All other devs on the projects are (usually) non-paid spare-time developer.

This means that the SoC students have to be treated differently, which some mentors didn't expect. Since they're inexperienced, they usually plan far more than they could ever achieve in the time frame, but some projects picked those first since they sounded best. They expected the students to complete their work after deadline, so they gave them a positive review, even though nothing was finished. Of course, nothing happend, since students are used to dropping everything after a course is done.

For example, take a look at the Haiku project's SoC ideas. They didn't participate last year, so they haven't learnt that lesson yet. Most of these projects are like a large master's thesis, some even more! That's ridiculous, there's no way any SoC student would be able to do that in the given time frame.

When students try to work on a project that's far above their head, you can expect that they constantly talk to their mentors about how to do it.

From the Haiku OS website:

"We are pleased and at the same time thrilled to inform the community that Google has accepted our application to become a mentor organization for the Google Summer of Code 2007. Yes, we have made it! Students now have until March 24 to apply for any of our project ideas from the GSoC Web App for Student Applicants. If you are a student and are interested in working on one of our project ideas, please check out our List of GSoC Ideas and Students: How to Apply pages for detailed information."

See http://www.haiku-os.org/ for relevant links.

warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (11) in /home2/haiku/webapps/website/gallery2/lib/adodb/dr ivers/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 348.

How about, it's being developed now?

Haiku, http://haiku-os.org/

Don't forget Haiku, the free BeOS reimplementation. What's been done so far is impressive for the number of developers working on it; if a few more developers joined the progress, I (personally, IMHO) think R1 could happen this year.

I've been using BeOS lately because I'm working on Haiku and it boots from POST into the full BeOS GUI, ready to use, in about 9 seconds. It shutdowns in about 4 seconds. This is on an Athlon 1.33 GHz with 512 MB RAM, a system that Windows XP takes a minute or two to boot up and shutdown on.

As others have mentioned this isn't really an issue for most other operating systems.

I really have to wonder what the hell Windows is doing at boot-up to be so freaking slow. Keep in mind that BeOS (unlike Windows) can quickly adapt to hardware changes at boot-up, so it isn't like some crazy hardware driver caching is happening or anything.

I used to always joke that the Windows boot-up included a couple million no-ops to be so damn slow. Anyhow this is one reason of many I'm helping with Haiku.

I also find it fascinating that the new "performance features" touted in Vista are really all just kludges to work around Windows' inefficiencies. The fact that other systems (like, ahem, BeOS and Haiku) don't need such kludges shows this is a Microsoft Windows problem.

It's not a proper fake news unless it speculates on BeOS, too.

Have a look at Haiku:

http://haiku-os.org/learn.php

I was a BeOS user (and hobbyist developer)

In our eternal quest for cooler and newer and neater, we're burning dollars like crazy throwing our perfectly working machines and software. When will we learn...

I think there is and will continue to be a good "market" (in the sense of need, not necessarily dollars) for lightweight, modern operating systems that can run on these older boxes. I'm thinking things like a kitchen web-browsing/email box, or maybe a lightweight media center PC, or even just something for little Billy to use instead of Daddy's computer. Heck for most people a 1.2 GHz box with 256 megs of RAM and a 40 GB hard-drive from 4 years ago is plenty, as long as the OS is not a beast.

There are already plenty of options here, like a lightweight Linux distro, any of the BSDs, or in my taste BeOS and it's successor, the open source Haiku.

http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=news_view&id=40 6&haikuusersession=c036c3e0b54b7e66a167d1654b692eb 2/

It's sad that they didn't even bother to reveal the reason why they refused.

As the parent post noted, Cringley got the marketing wrong on this. But he also got the technology wrong. Namely, source compatability != binary compatability (http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=nsl_view&id=11 &haikuusersession=52231944514625beffb530de6704ffa5 , for instance). Specifically, OS X uses Mach O binaries, Windows currently uses PEF and XCOFF. I don't know what Vista will use, but it won't be Mach O.

So, to do this, Apple *would* have to create a binary loader, they couldn't just use the API. Sorry, Bob.

Mod parent up! And add Haiku and Zeta to the list. Or maybe Palm would be willing to license BeOS R5.

Why not just keep the current job, and on side start helping out one of the cool open source projects, such is KDE, FreeBSD or Haiku?

If you are making tons of money, then there is not reason to give that up. Why not just save some extra money, and help out one of these cool open source projects. You could do anything you'd like to try out and do. You want to code Operating Systems? Then join FreeBSD team or Haiku team for example. Or if you like to make desktop applications, then join the KDE team and help them out.
Of course, if you are making a lot of money, these projects would be more than thankful if you donated some to them.

Be lucky that you have a good paying job. Its hard to find a job that pays better, however its easy to join one of the open source projects and do what you like.

Why not just keep the current job, and on side start helping out one of the cool open source projects, such is KDE, FreeBSD or Haiku?

If you are making tons of money, then there is not reason to give that up. Why not just save some extra money, and help out one of these cool open source projects. You could do anything you'd like to try out and do. You want to code Operating Systems? Then join FreeBSD team or Haiku team for example. Or if you like to make desktop applications, then join the KDE team and help them out.
Of course, if you are making a lot of money, these projects would be more than thankful if you donated some to them.

Be lucky that you have a good paying job. Its hard to find a job that pays better, however its easy to join one of the open source projects and do what you like.

There are a ton of comments in Haiku. Just take a look at their SVN.

I thought the active BeOS community were biding their time with BeOS Max Edition before Haiku is ready.

No issues with Haiku and price. :)

Besides, I don't believe that any of the ex Be employees have the legal right to work on Zeta or haiku due to IP constraints.

Besides all his problems with Microsoft seem to stem from either hatred, or the fact that people who use Windows are stupid. (claiming never to get a virus on a mac isn't a small miracle, I never get virii on PCs... Why? Because I do the same shit he does. I have a anti virus program that has been completely dorment since installation, except when I actually test it, and it performs perfectly then)

As I've mentioned before, I work on people's PCs. Every single time someone brings me their PC and says "it can't be a virus, I'm very careful/I have AV software and keep it updated/etc" I find at least 2 trojans on their computer they weren't aware of. In a few of these cases, I have found other viruses they didn't know about either.

As I've also mentioned elsewhere, Windows accepts changes from outside the operating system without the user's consent. It was designed that way. This is why no AV, anti-spyware or firewall will ever be adequate; a cracker can send you a virus over the internet and unless your firewall or AV stops it, you'd never even know. So what if your firewall or AV doesn't stop it because this particular virus's signature isn't in it's database yet? Your PC becomes infected. Windows is, so far as I know, the only OS that allows anothers's control of it to override the user's control - even Macs, the (reputedly, I wouldn't know) extremely-easy-to-use OS gives the user more control over the OS than Windows. And everyone is familiar with the stability problems Windows has; Windows XP works great for some people, for others it seems to be as bad as Windows 95. But cosndering Windows XP Pro costs nealry $300 it should be a lot better than that. That's far too much to pay for an OS with so many security problems and some variable amount of instability. Still, if it weren't for product activation I might actually consider using it, but I refuse to jump through hoops to earn the right to use software I've paid for.

Again, I'm repeating myself, but I also believe that Apple would be Microsoft if it weren't for Microsoft, so don't think I'm an Apple fangirl here. I use Linux and I'm planning to try out Haiku OS as soon as it is released. Windows has serious flaws that virtually all other OSes lack, and as long as they're still making money, these flaws will never be fixed. The only thing they care about fixing is marketing problems - they've proven this over and over again.

Does this make me an open source fanatic? I'm really not sure. For example, I don't think the Gimp is better than Photoshop, although the Gimp is a great graphics program. But I don't like the way Apple attempted to monopolize both hardware and software before Microsoft came along, so I simply don't trust them much either. The only good alternatives to both that I know of are open source. And I can share my copies with anyone I like without having to check a licensing agreement, nor am I limited to using the OS with only one computer. Since I'm not a programmer, I don't have to worry about the GNU Public license at all.

http://haiku-os.org/

Zeta also faces free competition in various forms:

Haiku (BeOS clone)
Syllable (BeOS-alike, fairly mature)
ReactOS (clean Windows clone)

The BeOS user community is largely behind Haiku. Syllable and ReactOS are fairly advanced in their state of development.

Sorry for interrupting your scheduled broadcast . . . we will return
to your regular program shortly.

The source code for Q3Arena has just been released under GPL. I'm
willilng to be part of the team looking into porting this to
BeOS/Haiku/Zeta (well, I've only got Zeta installed, but
nevertheless), since I've got some experience with OpenGL. Anyone who
*seriously* wants to participate in getting this beast building under
the BeOS family (sorry, no offers to beta test yet), drop me a private
line and I'll see about setting up a freelists mailing list for this
project. We need to give Rudolf something other than Q2 to test his
drivers with, since running the same old timedemo must be driving him
nuts.

I can be reached at:
solaja FUNNY_MONKEY_SIGN gmail FULLSTOP com

We now return you to your scheduled program...

Oh wait, that's right, BeOS lost the OS wars. -_-

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to phrase your post like this?

BeUnited is
the standards body only.
The actual site:

Haiku

Haiku is an open-source binary compatible recreation of BeOS and they have a great sob story.

BeUnited is the standards body only, the actual site for the Haiku Operating System is here:

Haiku

• Hurd (now with KDE)
• Haiku
• TUNES
• House
• Squeak

Haiku OS (Formerly OpenBeos) is (as I understand it) still a long way away from release, and is at the "pile of code" stage.
http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=faq_normal
Beos PE R5 is still available from BeBits and works on older machines
http://www.bebits.com/app/2680
and Beos MAX will work on newer machines, it's a hack of the old closed source with some newer drivers and some extra functionality like being bootable.
http://www.bebits.com/app/3892
The BeosMAX people have expressed that they would release no more versions once Zeta released, so I guess 3.1Beta1 is _it_. I still think it's an OS with a place. I loved it when I was first introduced to it by BeOS PE (FREE!), and was surprised that it hadn't caught on. Snappy, usable, friendly. A surprising number of linux apps release for BeOS as well, including Firefox (but not openoffice), Freesci, Sarien, Dosbox...

Yes, there was something like that, but all these efforts were merged into http://haiku-os.org/. In its current state Haiku replaces most of BeOS Personal Edition (that free one) components, it is not yet an OS of its own.

The BeOS clone Haiku also made some nice progress during the last months. Most kits do work and are in alpha or beta stage. There are vmware and vpc images to try out on philipp schmid's blog and also some screenshots.

ICMP is in the kernel because it's part of TCP/IP, which wouldn't be hard to remove from a Linux kernel.

ICMP is in the kernel because it's part of TCP/IP, which wouldn't be hard to remove from a Linux kernel.

What is this, "I just discovered there are alternative operating systems" day?

Why not at least mention the one alternative OS that may even have a slight glimmer of hope. I speak of Haiku (aka OpenBeOS). At least it's based on something that at one point stood a chance in the OS world.