Slashdot Mirror
Would You Take A Paycut for More Interesting Work?
HellsAngel asks: "I work in a business consulting firm. While the pay and the benefits are great, the work itself is mundane and boring, consisting of Excel, Access, and VBA macros. Recently, I got a job offer to move to a startup doing OS development and Systems and Network programming, however it would involve a paycut. Would you leave an otherwise perfect job to work on something more interesting?"
"Today, I work as an IT Analyst for a multinational firm doing business consulting. From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.
However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education. My current project right now involves hooking up Excel and Access with a little VBA and some macros. The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it. The most programming-intensive project that I've done here was an ASP.NET webapp, for the company intranet.
Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents? I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay, so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend. Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?"
However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education. My current project right now involves hooking up Excel and Access with a little VBA and some macros. The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it. The most programming-intensive project that I've done here was an ASP.NET webapp, for the company intranet.
Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents? I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay, so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend. Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?"
I'd take a cut to have a Mgr that actually knew more than me.
Yes.
NOOOOOOOOOOO
I saw this same question asked about 6 months ago. The general concencus is what do you want to do, not slashdot crowd. although if you are really that one dimensional and need the slashdot crowd to give you an answer, you might as well stick with the higher paying job :P
Where did you get your degree and how good exactly are you at programming? Maybe you should stick with doing nothing.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You should get together with this guy and start a company which does programming-intensive and patent-free works.
I find that this is a common greener-grass syndrome where one doesn't realize how lucky one is, however this is a good syndrome because that is what got us human-beings to where we are today. Imagine what would the world be if we didn't invent TV and we had to sit on an empty couch all day?
My advice is to try out some part-time works that utilize your talents, this will give you time to understand what your talents and interests are without risking what you have right now.
Uncensored Google results requested and delivered by email
It's hardly 'an otherwise perfect job' if it's mundane, boring and you are contemplating taking another job that involves a paycut.
I always encourage folks to do something they enjoy. The whole 'work to live' not 'live to work'. Six months ago I quit my job becaue I didn't find it interesting or challenging anymore, and stumbled into some interesting and different work from what I had been doing.
Now that that is over I will look for something else interesting. I am married and have a stay at home wife and daughter and I will still look for something more interesting or fun to do, life should be more than just paying the bills and being bored.
Would you take a pay raise for less interesting work? Hell yes! Make a bunch of money first, then use that money to do something that interests you.
Money isn't everything.. But it IS freedom..
I thought so.
Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
It would depend on the size of the paycut (A large percentage?), and the advancement potential in the position. Why start a new job at the top of the pay scale, and at the top of the ladder?
You may be happier at the new position, and gain valuable experience to further your carrer. But it would not be optimal to start a new position where it takes two years to get back to your current wage if your not learning valuable skills to help your earning potential.
In fact I plan on getting into robotics. Everyone in my family including myself assumes there is absolutely no money in this area of engineering and quite frankly I don't care. I just want to build something cool. I don't care about material possessions or in the case I do buy a lot of items, it will be on lathes, mills, and other devices.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
I'm a habitual paycut-taker, so maybe I'm biased. But I stay happy, and money only makes you happier when you're really struggling financially. The world is too wonderful, life too short and precious to waste on VBA programming.
Done! Exactly this, last week. Much happier now...
The question is, what can that extra money buy you? Do you think you'll be happier working a job that's fun, or having more money to spend when your eight hours are up. (or ten as the case may be).
Personally, I work at a Univeristy. It's less money than working in the private sector. However, it's a really mixed enviornment. I see a little bit of everything, from a huge range of applications of computers and their versitility.
At the end of the day, if you spend eight hours a day wishing you were doing anything else, dying to go somewhere else, you should probably leave. Odds are the difference in price wouldn't be able to make you happy an extra eight hours per day five days a week.
I'm in my 40s. Normally someone like me would be in management and earning good money, etc.... and be in meetings most of the time and work early/late to catch up, prepare reports, proposals, etc... Instead, I'm a research engineer. The money not as good, but the work is challenging and engages me. The best of it all, I go to about one or two meetings a week. !
I got stuck in a part of the IT spectrum that is looked down upon, so my pay can't get much lower than it is for my geogrpahy, and I have college loans, kids and credit cards.
I have almost thought of leaving IT and come back in a few years after a "suit" job just so I could expunge some of my resume. The only people being paid less than me are the lowest of the low programmers and general purpose IT people. I fit the second category.
NEVER work in Point-of-Sale!
well, if goin back to school to teach half-wits while geting my PhD instead of having a wall-street job counts, then, yes.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Recently, I got a job offer to move to a startup doing OS development and Systems and Network programming, however it would involve a paycut.
You can stay in touch with your old friends from this company, make new ones (hopefully) at your new job, take a reasonable pay cut that you could make back (if the startup succeeds) and get to do every hacker's dream work!
How serious is the relationship with your girlfriend? If you're thinking marriage and children in the near future, that bigger paycheck is going to come in handy.
Of course, you shouldn't let money be the only issue, but it still should be a major factor depending on where your life is headed. Whatever you do, try not to become one of those mini-van driving soccer dads who loathe going to work every day.
From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.
Most people would kill for job conditions like those. The excellence of your coworkers and boss in particular makes me inclined to say that you should stay. If you feel your CS degree is wasted, work on open source projects or try to bring open source into your organization. There are a myriad of ways to apply your knowledge without necessarily quitting your job. The dissatisfaction you experience may not be alleviated in your new job and if your boss and/or coworkers are worse, you'll regret the switch.
Would I take a paycut for more interesting work? Sure. Especially if it were interesting enough that the time that belonged to my employer felt like I were working on hobbies.
Would I dump an otherwise perfect job? Maybe not. Especially if that "otherwise perfect" meant that the pay was great, stress level was low, that more often than not, I found myself with a clear tast list or ahead of schedule at the end of the day, and it was easy to leave work at work after, say, a 7 1/2 hour day. A job like that supports an outside life full of personal interests rather well -- even, perhaps, systems/kernel hacking. It might have to be actively rotting my brain / corroding my soul to leave.
Tweet, tweet.
In today's free[sic] trade economy, you likely won't have a choice.
For consecutive years, the average real (after-inflation) wages of Americans have fallen. Given that reality, along with the outsourcing and declining jobs in tech (the US now imports more tech than it produces), trading money for contentment is common sense.
Not to rain on your parade, but can you afford to take a pay cut, to go to your 'dream job', or do you have responsibilities, like wife/kids/mortgage/car payments/etc?
If you have any kind of commitments such as the ones that I described, you should think long and hard before moving to a volatile environment such as a startup. I wouldn't do it unless I had at least 6 months or so worth of savings that I could fall back on if the 'dream job' didn't pay off and I was out on the street.
Your mileage may vary, of course. As I grow older, I find myself looking at my job as just that, a job. I use it to pay my bills and to 'fund' the activities I actually enjoy, and while there's always a certain level of 'enjoyment' in it, I don't find it necessary to be challenging to be happy.
A steady paycheck and great benefits are most enjoyable, thank you.
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
An opinion given to me goes as follows.
"Find something you would do for free, and find the fool who will pay you to do it."
I added, Dare, but dont kill yourself. You have to look at your situation, if you just bought a house, just had a kid, just got married, just got hired... then give it a little bit in your current job. A good situation would be to have more control over how droll or boring your job is by inserting yourself into the biz with ideas. Spice it up. break new ground.. Some times this doesnt work; thats another story.
Please excuse my gramatical errors. (aplenty)
The gist is, do what you can, and try to do more but never throw yourself off a bridge without a parachute, just cus "it's fun"
hesperant
Yes. More stimulating work implies challenges and new knowledge. New knowledge always trumps money if you have a brain. I prefer working in a job where I feel like I'm either bettering myself, or I'm contributing to the people in society who have less. That is always far more preferable to making loads of cash. If you're a rational human being anyway... ;P
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
In a word -- In a heart beat! I graduated last year with a BS in Computer Science and I have spent my time working my way to the Professional Water Ski Tour. (I'm not kidding). In a good month, I make 600 bucks. But I wake up every morning and love what I do. If I had to get up every day and go to a mundane job where my primary function involved work in Access and Excel... I would either quit or kill myself, and I can't say which of those would happen first.
OK, maybe I'm a little naive, I don't have a lot of bills to pay. Balance what you will make versus what you need to get by on and make a decision.
(I do some freelance web design in my spare time... hire me!)
Weigh all your choices, and if you can afford it (and think you will enjoy the new job) then go for it. If you can't afford it, make sure you aren't piddling money away, and then see again if you can afford the new job. It is hard to put a pricetag on happiness.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
It's not a perfect job if you're finding yourself disinterested and bored to tears.
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
It's a personal decision. The fact that you are asking suggests to me you need to stick with your current job. The other one may require some independent thinking.
Since I spend a good chunk of my waking life at a 8am -5pm job, I would gladly work for minimum wage if it was something I truly loved to do. I've been trying to find a job where I can really express my talents and passions for years now, unfortunately that happens to be in the computer industry. I really know my stuff but I can't seem to land my dream job.
They say when you get old and look back on your life you tend to regret things you didn't do, rather than things you did.
Having said that, I would stick it out at your present job until you have enough for a house, if you want that. Working at startups is fun, but is no fun being RIFed because the idea didn't work out.
Great opportunities do come along every so often I guess. Why not automate all the scripting and such you are doing? That would leverage your value and challenge where you are?
Think about it... what do you do (you being a consumer whore like the rest of us) actualy do with the money you make... thats right, you spend it on things to keep you interested, like games, music, movies, remote controled airplanes. So take the money you lose in doing a more interesting job, and re-code it to disosable income and try enjoying your days in the office, its well worth the cash. You go home feeling better about what you do, your happier becasue of it, you spouse, or SO or kids/dog/cat enjoys having a happier healthier (mentaly) you around the place... money well spent.
Not that you can't do sophisticated stuff with excel, access, etc. (maybe you are), but if you're not, the kind of safety-scissors, connect-the-dots programming that usually gets done with these tools is a prime candidate for offshoring. Unless you're desperate for the cash (babies to feed, mortgage, etc.), do something that'll challenge you, and don't rest on your laurels.
Do something that makes you happy. Besides, you're letting your brain atrophy doing VBA all day. I took about a 30% cut and went from a 5 minute commute to 45 minutes just to do something more interesting. It hurts a bit, but at least I am doing something more interesting.
There are some circumstances where I'd say go for the more interesting job, but IMO all the benefits you get at the boring job outweigh it. You may think you're wasting your time and your talent there, but remember: when its all said and done, you work for money.
If you want to do something interesting, use some of the time you're saving by being able to telecommute and do some programming of your own (open source or whatever). Save some of that extra money you're getting to open your own programming business someday.
That's a tough choice. Try looking at it this way: If you stay will you still be qualified for more interesting work in 5 years? Alternatively, what if you find you don't find the more challenging work any more fun and just make less money for more work?
It's important to look at the non-work elements too. For example, I would imagine that your current job is so easy you have lots of free time to spend that big salary. A start up will pay less and leave you with way less time free.
Also, don't under-estimate the importance of your work environment. If your co-workers are fun to work with and the job isn't very hard, you've got a pretty good thing going. My recommendation would be to keeping your self challenged with projects on the side.
Another thing to consider is to talk to your boss about it. Say that you'd like to take on some more challenging tasks. Even better, look for ways to improve the business processes through software develop, and then request permission to implement them (in addition to your normal work, of course). It's usually worth trying to fix your current situation before thinking about leaving.
Excel, Access, and VBA macros You've got to think long term. You can take a (relatively) small paycut now, or you can take one later that will compound yearly. While you may be taking a paycut now, you'll learn new skills and become more marketable for the future. Besides being boring, how's the future looking for Excel, Access, and VBA macro programmers 5 years from now? 10? How's your outlook for learning new things at this company? Not only is your current job boring it could also be terminal to your career if you're not keeping up with technology!
If a lower pay is enough to pay the bills and lead a comfortable life style, I would seriously consider dumping a high-paying boring job for a rewarding low-paying.
But:
The fact that it's a startup complicates things. Startups can fail at any time, and one day you may wake up and find yourself on the street. You need to do your homework and take a very close look at the startup: are they just a dot-bomb wannabe, or do they have a solid business plan, a marketable product, and a firm roadplan? The answers to these questions will guide you to making the call here.
Your other alternative is to find the time in your cushy job and make it interesting. If it's really such a bore you should have plenty of time to spend on educating yourself. Find something you want to learn, some skill, and use your free time to study it. If it's even barely relevant to your current line of work you are on solid ground to justify using your free time, on the clock, on this. No employer -- especially the solid company you claim to be working for -- would object to their employees learning and picking up related skills that might be relevant to their employment; they should even encourage it.
I've changed jobs several times with pay cuts so that I could be interested in my job. I found out early that although having lots of money is nice, after a while it's just money. Being interested and enjoying your job is a bigger reward than you may realize and after you've mastered your domain, the money will come.
Hell yes
It is not only an issue of more interesting work, but also more satisfying work.
I have a friend who is a 1st year law student. He took an unpaid summer internship at the FTC -- helping them go after spammers. I had opposing counsel (representing a spammer) leave private practice and become a a prosecutor. He enjoys putting bad guys away, even though it is less money.
Fight Spammers!
The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it.
Hell, I'd take a paycut just to never see Notes again...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Why not just keep the current job, and on side start helping out one of the cool open source projects, such is KDE, FreeBSD or Haiku?
If you are making tons of money, then there is not reason to give that up. Why not just save some extra money, and help out one of these cool open source projects. You could do anything you'd like to try out and do. You want to code Operating Systems? Then join FreeBSD team or Haiku team for example. Or if you like to make desktop applications, then join the KDE team and help them out.
Of course, if you are making a lot of money, these projects would be more than thankful if you donated some to them.
Be lucky that you have a good paying job. Its hard to find a job that pays better, however its easy to join one of the open source projects and do what you like.
Speaking from experience, don't leave one job for something you presume would be more interesting, because it may turn out to be dull as hell after a few months (personal experience). Having said that, one of the nice things about startups is they offer more opportunity for growth and advancement, something I am sorely missing at my current job. All the same, I wouldn't go back to a paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle no matter how interesting or promising the job was.
On a side note, this is why everyone needs a sugar momma/daddy.
Lighten up. Its only a post.
And never regretted it.
Your new job is going to have a lot of the same crap as your old job, but it's at least going to be interesting for you.
Ask yourself this question: will the pay/benefits of my new job be enough for me to live comfortably on? If so, I say go for it.
I would totally do it. I feel far too many people become complacent with their job and the settle with something that pays the bills but doesn't satisfy them. Also, I read somewhere that Google actually pays less than most of its competitors in the area, part because they offer such killer benefits, but also because most engineers who work there seem to really like what they do. Also, if its a small startup you're thinking of working for, try to work a small amount of equity into your compensation, that way if the company gets sold for $50 bajillion you'll get a slice.
I'm not old enough to be in the workforce yet, but I imagine this is a simple economics question just like anything else. If you are assured that the job is a certain amount more interesting, with room for you to grow (promotions, pay increases, whatever), and the pay cut doesnt drastically affect your standard of living, go for it.
basically, is the pay cut so much that it would change how you live, and if so does the more interesting work make up for that?
This is 95% a personal preference question
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
I've done it before, and I'd do it again.
...... but the difference between $60,000 and $70,000 is marginal.
.... and you'll enjoy the money you DO have a lot more.
The bottom line is this: you spend (roughly) a third of your adult life at work. You cannot expect to be happy in the rest of your life if you are miserable during such a large chunk of your waking hours.
The difference in quality of life when you earn $10,000 or $20,000 is huge
Take the pay cut
I took about a 30% pay cut to move from programming to science. I'm happy with that choice.
Apparently there is a term for this: "downshifters".
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
I am still a student, but recently I faced the same question. I was guarenteed 2 jobs, one where I would be programming a wireless app for windows (in visual C++, C#, etc.) for $x/hr or in the other I could become an administrator for $(x+4)/hr. Now, considering I am a student and x is quite small the $4 was significant enough to make the decision interesting.
I finally settled on the programming job because I realized that getting experience / diversifying my resume would be well worth it in the long run. You may not be making much now, but it sounds like a good opportunity to add to your resume. I can't say for sure that you'll have more money in the future, but I like to think about it this way: What is better, building a career I could see myself doing for the rest of my life, or a single job that I regard as a vehicle to simply pay the bills?
Besides, there are plenty of jobs like the one you have now. And if they have a CS major doing it, then I doubt they really care about being a person being overqualified. So it probably won't be hard to get another one like it.
The only thing I would be concerned about is the overtime of the OS job. And the ramifications should probably be explained to your gf (if the two of you have a significant enough relationship).
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
... here before and it all boils down to what you value. Do you value security and high pay over a potentially big reward (money, experience, personal satisfaction) that may or may not materialize? Would you be willing to leave a "good job" for something else that may be better or worse? How much do you believe in the start-up's chances and the people behind it?
One thing to consider is can you grow in your current job. Have you seriously discussed expanding your role or broadening your experience within the company? A good company will work with you to do that. After all, companies should (note, I said "should") value employees who want to grow and improve.
If your current employer is willing to do this, then I'd suggest staying with them. It sounds like you've got a good thing going on the compensation side.
If they give you the "you're too important where you are" bit, then you have start weighing all those things you value and determine whether staying or jumping ship is best for you. As has been said numerous times here before, only you can decide that.
-- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
But, that said, it's a lot easier to take a high paying job and do the things you love in your free time than to work for less money doing something you love. When I was young and idealistic I thought I should do something I really wanted to do and enjoy myself. Call me a sellout, but ten years later I realize that I'd rather put in my hours at work, collect a fat paycheck then use that money to enjoy myself. Think about it - each week you spend 40(ish) hours at work and 128 outside of work.
I do a lot of interesting embedded and OS level stuff. I could wear a tie and crank VB/SQL for government/corporate operators for a lot more money.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Finally, count on the fact that this company will fail (most do). What back-up plan do you have? If you quit your current job, make sure that you keep your foot in it( i.e. leave on a very good note). For the last 5 years, the economy has been so-so, with a enormously rising deficit, and almost certain that the deal with Iran is about to blow up. When it happens, the price of gas will probably shoot to 3-3.5/gal. That means that the economy will cut back. i.e., there is likely to be at least a softening in the economy. If the economy softens, what happens to the company? Is its product dependant on a growing economy.
Now, with all that, consider going. If you are a true CS, then the current job will guarentee you no future. Why would I hire you if you have shown no initiative. At the very least, if you stay with it, consider doing some OSS work. Since you do Windows, you can do that work in Windows as well. But you need something that shows that you are capable.
Good Luck.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Sounds like your current job isn't all that bad; having friends as coworkers really should weight more than the paycut. In the end, though, you're the only one who can decide whether you enjoy life more with the extra cash or the extra challenge.
Please dear GAWD pick ME pick ME!!!
... at least not at this point in my life. However, one of my goals is to make it so when I am 40-45 I *can* take a paycut, if needed, to find more "fulfilling" work. I am not unhappy with what I am doing now... but I could see myself teaching , or doing volunteer work. I also like to eat :) But by preparing now... living off 75% of my pay, so I have more options.
:)
If you are already at this point. GREAT! For those of you living off 105% of pay... I guess SOMEONE has to keep working so the rest of us can retire
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Look - pay is usually ranked #6 or lower of most employees list of criteria for satisfaction. Dont mess with a boring job - quality of like just skyrockets if you are having fun.
In college as a Computer Science major I worked at the University as a Network Engineer/Security handyman. I learned so much from the Internet 2 community. As a follower of the FSS I would always make sure to release my work, research and share with others in the community. I enjoy the academic community so much that when I decided to make Network Security my career I swore I would never work for a corporation. A corporation who would only restrict my output to the community, who would not allow me to do independent research that would help make the internet a better place. In an academic environment this is encouraged. I later joined a non-profit Internet2 related org. being paid to do Network Security research in the interests of academia. I am free to do independent research, release all my results, data and tools for free to the community and they pay me to go to hacker cons and training. All in the interests of helping out fellow researchers in academia.
:)
:-)
It's much more fulfilling than being a cube junkie running around fixing windows problems or tracking down problems on a corporate network. Sure some companies are exceptions, however I feel I have a lot more freedom. Of course I could make a hell of a lot more money in a corporate environment, but it just would not be the same. I am working on some really interesting bleeding edge research in Network/Operating System Security.
Not to mention I get that good feeling in me that I am helping out my local Universities, helping make them a better place for learning. Plus I have access to a ton of bandwidth!
I am free to run any OS I want (I only run Linux anyways but still), I am free to talk about my research, I get to go to meetings in t-shirts that say RTFM on them. It's laid back and interesting work. Very stress free (thats key for me), no crazy TPS reports, no managers, I am almost my own boss. Try getting away with any of that in a corporate environment.
I also have the pleasure to deal with people who are at the top of the field in Network Security research in academia and corporate. I don't have to deal with dumb users, I don't have to deal with dumb managers and best of all... I'm 22.
I could have worked for a major global network security firm that just happens to have their offices in my state, I could have made easily 20 or 30k more than I do now. The perks of this job outweigh any amount of **money, trouble and headaches** any corporate job would give me.
Is it worth the paycut? You bet ya!
Did I mention I also have a ton of free time to boot? And I come and go as I please from my work (well almost, but 60% of the time when I don't have to be in the office for any particular thing I can).
Gotta love that paycut! Waking up at 10am to go into work has never felt so good, thank god for salary.
You should definitely quit.
After you do, can you put in a good word for me with your boss? I could really use the *high pay*, *extravagant benefits and bonuses*, *flexi-time*, and the ability to *telecommute whenever possible*.
Sheesh...
In the late 80's I went from a low-level management position (25,000 USD) to a teaching job in a religious school making 8,500, in order to get my certification. Once certified I went to 20,000. I've never regretted it, I love my work.
You say you have "great pay", and you are thinking about taking a pay cut. Are you currently saving money at some significant rate per month? Everybody should be, but you're the canonical example of someone who should be.
If you've got a cushion stashed away, so that the startup can go under and you're not on the street in the next week, I'd strongly suggest jumping ship, for two reasons. One is that your current complaints are only going to become worse. The second is that you may find that you are in a career dead-end, relative to where you want to be. You hint at this; I confirm this.
If you can get equity in the startup (ask!), so much the better. (If you believe, you may even seal the deal with a bit of investment.)
If, on the other hand, despite your great pay you have no savings, my suggestion would be, pretend you're taking the pay cut now and start pocketing the difference, but unless you can make yourself extremely sure the startup is a "sure thing" for some period of time, skip it. You'll have to take on the next opportunity that comes by. Odds are extremely good there will be one.
(One aspect of savings that people seriously underestimate is how it frees you to take certain riskier opportunities as they come by. Spending every last dime traps you even before the "health catastrophe" or the "death in the family" or "sudden illness" or the other traditional sudden money drains.)
I submitted my resignation today. I was in a job that bored me to tears after I accepted an offer for a position that pays 20% less. I am emotionally erect that the prospect of having a challenge in my job again.
I work in academia.. I make a decent salary compared to a lot of other sysadmin types at my university. I think the people I work with are great and I've been presented with many cool projects that keep me working there. All of this despite the fact I could be making twice as much in corporate. I wouldn't leave my job for that. Money isn't everything. I wouldn't take a pay cut either..
However, I'm working on starting my own business. I can do this safely without taking a pay cut while I continue working at my academia job. However, once my retirement vests in two years, I'm probably going to quit, and risk the pay cut and other risks that come with starting a business (altho hopefully we'll be profitting to some degree by that point). I'm doing this in the interest of doing something I find incredibly cool and fun, and most importantly, as my own boss.
Most importantly, when considering a pay cut, is making sure you'll be happy and can afford to live on the lower salary. If you're just making ends meet right now, probably not a good idea to quit the current job, no matter how interesting the other job is. For instance, I wouldn't quit my job now to concentrate on starting my business. Sure, I might progress with that faster, but I won't be able to pay my bills or have some minimal comforts in life.
There are always tradeoffs in any job change. A previous post listed you are happy with your current coworkers. This is important. A new job could be more interesting, but not if you can't get along with your coworkers/boss. Of course other benefits should be taken into consideration as well. Going back to academia vs. corporate, I like how I can work on my degree, all paid for by the university. I also have a very flexible schedule. All tradeoffs for a lower salary. I also have job security and know for a fact when I'm going to get raises, retirement money, etc..
Good luck and think carefully about making life decisions!
Why not keep your current job and find some interesting open source development projects to work on in the background?
Thanks for asking though.
From you description, I'd jump at it... you're young enough to take risks and you're bored. Strike while the iron is hot.
More practically, it depends on just how bored you are, how big a pay cut, and how much risk is there in the startup.
Even if it all falls to dust, having the risk-taking, interesting job on your resume will probably help you find the next job.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Things get more interesting when you want to overload a function.
You can pass in Variants, which can be class modules, so you could have two leaf modules implement, say, a ThatHurts( self As yep_VBA_really_is_a_python_without_a_spine ) method. Trouble is, you have to instantiate the class module you want with a classically hack-tacular Select Case, a la:
You get the picture
And, no, I won't take it back.
Slashcode's refusal to support any code indentation only makes the idiocy more poignant.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
frankly speaking, if you're bored out of your mind then your job is not perfect. If you're going to have less pay and benefits then the new job will not be perfect either. A perfect job would be an interesting job with good pay and benefits. However, lets face it, the 90s are over and gone are the days when i could have branded a spork as an "eCommerce solution" and gotten away with it and 10,000,000USD. You're not going to find a "perfect job." My advice would be to stay where you are for the practical benefits and do whatever you want to in your spare time to keep your mind sharp and your wits about you. I'm an English major looking at graduation. I'm likely not going to find a job writing or anything. I'll do that in my spare time and get some mindless office job to pay the bills. I went out for the Army, but they disqualified me because of asthma; couldn't get the waiver. I envy your possition. At least you have a job. besides, there is no guarantee that this new venture is going to stay solvent. It could die in a month or a year, and leave you with nothing. Stay where you are and get a hobby.
...does that count?
Back in 2000, when everyone was laying off and outsourcing was just starting to build momentum, I saw the writing on the wall and I got the hell out of Manhattan. I got a civil service job with the government, and it took me a few years to build seniority, but now I get paid about the same as I used to but with half the living expenses, better benefits, excellent job security, and family-friendly hours.
Best of all, I'm still doing Java development. With nice tools, too. And my boss actually RESPECTS me. They even pay for training. And books.
Why would anyone still want to work for an American company in this day and age?
Put an extremely successful but rather tame computer consulting career on hold to work for these clowns ;)
Pushing it to the limit!
Title of a book that has really helped me. I have taken several paycuts for other jobs, the total overall is about 2/3 paycut over the past 10 years. The last one I took was about 1/3 paycut. Best thing I ever did. Money is sometimes tight but my sanity is worth it. My wife is hapy, I am happy and my kids are happy. Now, I am doing what I love amd love what I am doing. When the alarm goes off, I am glad to get up. In three years I have never had to think, maybe today I will just oversleep. When vacation is over I am ready to go back. BTW: I am high school teacher at a private school who earns about 60% of the public school counterparts. I receive no bounses, no profit sharing, just my pay and I am glad.
-- A computer without Windoze is like a choclate cake without mustard
I'd take the pay and cut... out.
While most people would say the main point of a job is to make a living, you should also enjoy what you are doing, and it should give you a sense of accomplishment. I also want to be pushed to continue to learn; access macros aren't going to do that for you, I'm guessing, so I'd say go for the paycut, if you can survive.
"Better to be vulgar than non-existent" -Bev Henson
Take my advice seriously since you look far from reality.
If you think your job mundane and boring, develop your hobby such as creative programming or whatever else you like to do and do it during your spare time.
Even though the job offer may look fantastic and interesting, once it becomes your job, it just gets boring, mundane, and even stressful. That is a reality and an essential part of every start-up project.
Your ego is Matrix!
I'm making about 2/3 of what I would be if I had stayed at my cushy job at a large multi-national firm.
And, once I get my evil machinations into place, I'll be making 1/3 of what I am now.
But I'll be sleeping much better at night.
You do not work for a start-up because of good pay -- you work for a) fun and b) a chance to make it BIG, really big... You are not going to have a chance to be able to do your early retirement at 35 if you live on your "well-paid" $150K/year salary (if you are somewhat normal and can not live on dry chinese noodles alone... ;-) ).
;-) ).
And you do not have too many bills to pay (yet!) -- maybe it's time to make a plunge!
I did myself recently (and I do have bills to pay, wife, and so on...) -- my deal with the start-up I work for now was to match my perivious salary in USD in their Canadian dollars (~18% paycut) -- but the whole fun part definitely pays for it (even taking into account crazy prices for everything BUT sushi in Vancouver
Paul B.
no, good pay and "flexi" time allow for you to find stimulation elsewhere. to me it sounds like you'd be moving to a job that might be more intersting work... maybe more work, less money, and less flexible time. time and enough money to allow you to do what you want in the time that you have is one of the hardest balances in life.
I farted
In every job I've had (programming or not) I've written programs to help coworkers and myself with work. Usually utilities that make things easier. Of course, I'm sure the culture would vary by company so yours might not approve but even though mine wheren't official projects, they were always well received.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
I am a Windows Systems Admin. Honestly, before everyone jumps on me because I work with Microsoft product, I view it as a way to finance the things I do outside of work.
Right now, without the job that I do (which involves lots of paperwork), I would not be able to pay for my night schooling that I take in order to get my Bachelors. In the future, when the school stuff is done, I feel that I will have more skills, more free time, and more money to challenge myself in other ways, like learning another OS.
If your pay is good, and you still have time that you feel is not being put to good use, you can find other ways to grow in your chosen field.
Provided that the new job does not instill specific hardships - that you will have enough to keep yourself and your family fed, housed, clothed, insured and the like - I would say yes. Life is very short; would you rather spend your days at a job that gave you money, but never gave you a chance to use it for the things that mattered most to you? Consider how many hours in a day you spend at work; I see my officemates more than anyone else. If I were given more money for a boring job, at the most I could use it to buy myself leisure time to try to counteract it - but since that would be less than half of my time, I would be losing in the bargain! Better to ensure that all your moments are spent on things which are worth the while.
But other people have said this before -- Seneca wrote on the shortness of life (Or in an excellent dead-tree edition, either way it's very short) much more eloquently than I could.
Depends on your goals and state in life. If you are married and have kids (like me) you might want to stick with the higher-paying, more stable job. A job at a startup sounds like too much risk even without the pay cut.
However, if you are still relatively unattached, go for your dreams and what makes you happy at work. If you enjoy what you do, you will be more likely in the long run to find a job that does pay well and is fun at the same time. Consider the startup job to be a stepping stone along the way. Rather than let your skills get rusty and find yourself losing your edge later, keep them sharp and keep your motivation and enthusiasm up.
If you are unhappy with your current job but are still averse to the riskiness of a startup, don't take this opportunity but go ahead and look around for other jobs. There may still be a better place for you that doesn't have as much risk or as much of a pay cut. The economy is doing fairly well so don't be timid!
One more note. I know this is Slashdot and I also know the industry we are in, so the following advice may seem out of place. Nevertheless, here goes. Even in a job that you enjoy, try not to let it totally consume your life. There is life beyond work. I advise you to retain enough time for yourself to be able to strike up and nurture relationships with other people. If you have a family, spend time with them. If you are single, don't hesitate too long to find that special someone! The trend in our society is toward marrying and starting a family in your 30s or even later. First of all, that makes it harder to get used to each other when you do find someone. Second, it increases the risk of unhealthy children (birth defects, etc.). Third, despite the stereotypes, family life really is a lot more fun and enjoyable than the single life-- study after study claims this, and my own experience confirms it. When you look back on your life, will it matter more that you had a stellar, enjoyable career, or that you had a good family life and have relatives around you in your old age?
Again, I guess it really does boil down to what your goals are in life. They're not the same for everyone, but I do recommend sitting down and thinking honestly about your own goals and making sure they are the right ones for you-- that you aren't just following whatever everyone else is doing because you don't have your own clear path in mind.
Hell yes. I was in a similar position, working as a consultant and BORED TO TEARS. After 4 years of the money chase I walked out. I was ready to leave software development alltogether... fortunately for me, I eventually ended up in grad school, at around $17k/year to get by, but I am so much happier. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
If walking away is not an option, talk to your manager at the consulting company - they have an investment in you, and if they care at all they will help you find more interesting/exciting assignments.
The old saying is true: money isn't everything. You have the rest of your life to work... find something you love/like to do and do it.
This goes back to "Do what you have a passion for." I for one am a Programer, I deal with access and such. I make a good amount of money. This is very teadious work however, its brain busters sometimes. But would I leave that and take less to become a network administrator? (Which is what I want to be) YES.
The reason is I have a passion for network administration, I would have more fun with the job, I may make less I may make more, that doesnt matter. If I can put food on the table, then thats all that matters to me. I want a job I can enjoy doing and look forward to. I want to do what I have a passion for.
My current job was very interesting at first, but it's gotten somewhat boring. Actually I've been looking forward to a paycut to have more free hours so I can work on things I like, i.e. Open Source development. Currently i get too tired from the job to keep on going, but by programming on Open Source projects, I feel like I'm helping the world and all that.
:)
:)
I'd like you to ask yourself this question: "Do I see myself doing this for the next 20 years?" Note that I didn't say '... in the next 20 years', but 'during the next 20 years'. Sometimes a boring job really gets to your nerves, and as marriage, when it gets boring, you tend to stop liking it and then it goes all downhill.
Fortunately, jobs aren't marriages, and you can quit whenever you decide. So, this seems to be the moment of your decision. Plus, when you get the other job experience, later you'll be able to ask for a raise
I'd say go for it, I'm sure you won't regret the decision. And if you do regret it, at least you'll have gained the good experiences of the new job - something you can't gain in the current one, don't you think?
I gave up a great programming job in 1990 that would pay me as an intern through college and then hire full time on graduation at over $35,000 entry level, not bad back in 1990. 10 years later, I passed up an opportunity to transition to an airline job that would pay in excess of $120,000/year after 3 years in the company. I married a doctor 3 years ago and if I quit my job today, she could join a private practice and make well over $350,000 per year while I kicked it doing... well, anything really.
What job has led me to make these financially retarded career moves?
I'm a USAF fighter pilot.
Woot.
You've made me feel better... My job may be boring at times, but at least it's not Access/Excel VBA macros.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I took a $20,000 pay cut to work for a young media company. The people are fresh and exciting, the office is cool, and I am the one man IT shop (meaning my way is the way it is). But temper this with no set procedures for anything, management with permanent crisis on their hands, and the knowledge that we might not make the payroll next month.
There are ups and downs to every job, but really think hard about who you are, how you like to work and remember that 1 in hand is worth 6 in the brush.
Unlike what many will tell you, not all bosses are asses. A lot of them want their employees to be happy. Try talking to your boss, tell him/her what you think, why you are unhappy and considering other employment.
You might be pleasantly surprised and get what you want without leaving the firm.
And frankly if you are bored, you probably are not being proactive and approaching problems with solutions that can use your skills.
Benefits are worth more than salary to me. It sounds like you are loaded to the hilt with benefits, in a great environment no less. You don't know how good you have it. At the very least, try to take on newer more exciting responsibilities first before looking outside the company.
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I place a higher value on the interesting work and the lifestyle I live now over money. The question really is not Money v. Interest it's The Old Job v. The New Job. The answer to that lies in what you value most. The very fact that you are asking the question indicates that you do place a value on interesting work. What you need to ask now is, what value do you place on money. Also, what prospects for advancement are there at The New Job versus The Old Job. If your current job is well-paying but dead-end while the other is low-paying but high growth then the growth may in time win out.
IMHO don't ask us, ask yourself: "What is important to me?" and "Which job fits better?" And when doing this consider all the variables lifestyle, stress, benefits, drinking companions, whatever. If you care about it consider it. List them, rank them, rate the jobs and make your choice.
I can tell you what I might do but I'm not you so I really wouldn't want you to just do what I say.
Does that answer your question?
You get paid for being social - enjoy the friendships! You can work the hours you want - test yourself technically outside of work. So many people work in bad conditions, to earn poor money, to do what they really want in the weekend. You're telling me: you work in good conditions, for good cash, and can do what you really want, when you want. You want to swap jobs?
I think this is a personal question. Compare your life outside of work at the lower income with the life outside of work you have now. If that change is acceptable then take the other job.
Just make sure you leave your current job on good terms (just in case) and make sure that this startup isn't going to invade the rest of your life (for instance with long hours trying to get the new product out the door, hours you could spend with your girlfriend or doing whatever else).
I guess the answer depends on how valuable your time is to you. If you waste hours every day, for example by posting to slashdot, then you probably won't mind working at a boring-ass job for good pay. Especially if you post to slashdot on their time. Then again, if you feel compelled to work on interesting things to the point where it is interfering with the rest of your wife, then by all means take the pay cut and move to the interesting job.
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
move on. In exchange for that bit of wisdom let me send you a resume to drop off at HR on your way out the door. I think they might have an opening I might be interested in...
Some people go through life putting up with work so that they can make enough money to afford to have fun at home. I don't personally like this view; regardless of how much fun you have at home, you've still got 8 hours of guaranteed boredom/misery at least 40 hours a week.
On the other hand, if you can get paid less and have fun AT WORK, you're MUCH better off. Ask yourself this - How much would you pay for 40 hours a week of fun?
If the difference between your current job and the more interesting job is less than or equal to that amount, you might need a switch.
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
... provided I could afford the paycut (mortgage, dogs, etc.) Fortunately every time I've quit for a more interesting job, I've received a pay rise as well. My wife, however, recently took a pay cut in order to move to a (non-IT, Call Centre Analyst) job that's more interesting than her previous team leader role, and will benefit her career in the long term.
You may think that you are earning good money now, but there is very limited potential where you are. Your salary isn't going anywhere fast with excel, access and vba experience. I'll rather take a temporary pay cut for more interesting/challenging works and then utilise the skills I learn in this new job to earn more money further down the track. Life/fun outside work is good, but it doesn't mean your work has to be so boring!
A wise man once told me; "If you enjoy your job, you'll never work a day in your life."
Life is too short to do something that you don't enjoy. "I had an awesome time" is a better death bed confession than "I made stacks of cash."
Let me see...high paid, excellent benefits, no credit card debt...can't possibly be U.S. worker!
Before, I had two offers: one which paid more and the other, a significantly lower-paying, but interesting and has flexibility.
I chose the latter because I knew it felt right-- I'd be doing something that's closer to what I want.
Ultimately, I think it boils down to the balance between practicality and passion: Your job should be close enough to your heart but won't leave on an empty stomach.
Need a color? Try 100 random colors
Many of the above comments talk about the "opportunity for advancement" as though that's a universally good thing. But not all of us are ladder-climbers, and managing engineering is often very, very different from engineering. I've seen engineers take a step up the ladder, only to find they're spending most or all of their time on project management, budgets, meetings, etc., and they hate it. Even if they do still code, I'd say from experience that the roles of boss and fellow coder rarely mix well; it depends on the person. Design discussions aren't very fun (and also don't result in the best ideas) when someone pulls rank.
But "opportunity for growth" is a much broader prospect. In the long run, I say it's better to be learning new skills, taking on a broader range of responsibilities and challenges, experiencing different industries and organizational styles, and so on. If you're young and without major financial commitments (family, mortgage, etc.), then stuff like flex-time and benefits and salary should really be taking a back seat to your personal and career development.
It took me a long time to see that. After more than a decade of fairly low-stress, well-paid, team software development work, I'm now making 2/3 of what I was a couple years ago, on-call 24/7/365, coping with much more pressure and responsibility, overworked and underpaid in a totally new industry, and I'd say that it's well worth it for the challenge, personal growth, and everything I'm learning. (The change from the typical sausage factory of tech companies to a majority female environment is pleasant as well.)
As far as relationships with co-workers, I guess it depends on your view of humanity. I figure most people are cool. The fact that you have good relationships now means you're probably the kind of person who will find them again. Of course it only takes one PHB to make work hell for everyone...
If your current employer doesn't know it's you (well, "multinational" and the Lotus notes and excel stuff might give you away...), then review your HR policy. If there's no written objection, and if your "flex-time" and telecommuting allow, then see if that startup will allow you to work as an off-site, staff employee. The cut in pay will have no hit, and you'll be able to contribute to Open Source.
But, honestly, with your skills and degree, why keep contributing to the megalomaniac machine, especially where it involves facilitating another little piece of Lotus down. See if you can help Lotus and IBM port Lotus SmartSuite to Open Source. I'd LOVE to be an end user/beta tester. I'm doing in Approach some stuff I'll NEVER be able to do in Open Source as a non-programmer. All IBM & Lotus need to be convinced to do is flip the flags in their asset survey (SURELY IBM surveyed all of Lotus' IP before they bought the company years ago...) and just dump the non-IBM code before uploading the Lotus SmartSuite stuff to a CVS.
Why not try to coordinate between Sun and IBM to merge the best of both suites. Star Office and OO.o DOOOO have a few neat/nifty things but the charting and database stuff is just utterly depressing to my mind given how intuitive and well-designed Approach and Word Pro are.
At the rate IBM and Lotus are going by not contributing SmartSuite code for a thing I loosely call "Open SmartSuite", Open Source is being seriously deprived of something that would so quickly fill a void you'd hear the "KLANG" as SmartSuite assumed it's position and Approach takes more awards (after years of hiatus, languishing in windoze land...). If I knew how to code, I'd probably just give up and go for a combination of Trolltech QT Designer and MySQL for the thing I'm doing. Actually, since my efforts and activities are ultimately (apparently) "going for shit" given the heart-rending absence of SmartSuite in Open Source, I ought to do JUST THIS: take my prototype stuff and present it to TrollTech and MySQL. THAT could be JUST what it takes to light a fire under IBM and Lotus to give ME what I want and need and what millions of others DEFINITELY can use. And, it could be done without harming Open Source. After all, if Open Source is giving ms a run (for it's grip) on the money, then IBM/Lotus can help reinforce what end-user databases and end-user (non-geek) word processors SHOULD look like, and act like.
Approach and Word Pro and Organizer could be JUST what Open Source needs when it comes to quality, thought-out interfaces and functionality.
Rather than slowly build to intense, irreversible bitterness, I think YOUR post has revived my recent consideration to "approach" Trolltech and MySQL. Better to do THAT than to continue stewing and getting no where.
So, keep YOUR day job and consider a real challenge: Assaulting bad end-user database and word processor interface design in the OS community.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Questions about current job.
A) is your boss hard to please/work with? Do people hound you daily?
B) are you stagnant in your position with no place to advance?
C) if someone offered you a lateral move would you take it?
Questions about new job.
A) can you lower your cost of living and be comfortable at your new pay scale?
B) will you learn skills which you can take on to a higher paying job elsewhere?
C) Can you see yourself comfortable in that environment for 5 years?
Answer yes to 2+ in section 1 AND answer yes to all 3 in section 2 = quit.
Otherwise, stay where your at.
The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
The short answer: in a second!
The long answer: if you can afford it. I'm not serving three concurrent life sentences comprising marriage, children, and mortgage. *g*
It's that old saying: "Find a job you love and you'll never work another day in your life." I feel this is true, but the number of people who actually have that one job that satisfies them completely is few and far between.
You need to consider what you enjoy more. Is it the money that you like, the tasks that you're accomplishing, or the people you work with that means the most in your workplace? Perhaps the benefits or vacation time are extremely good. There's a chance that you may or may not like the new job better.
For me, the social work environment has to be good. If I don't get along with the people I work with, I won't be as effective in my job. Currently, I would put my life on the line for the people I work with.
The tasks themselves just need to keep me busy without being nonsensical. This goes either way in my line of work...I get stupid BS and then I get things I like doing.
The money...am doing quite well considering my relatively low-paying job. I am single and have zero obligations. I've already got a strong financial future planned although I'm not quite 23 years old.
The point is, you find a job that works for you. You won't be happy in every aspect, because life isn't likely to deal a good hand every time. If you're happy, stay. If you think you will become unhappy where you are or will find greater happiness in another venture, then by all means change. Go with your gut, whatever it tells you.
What else can happen when an unstoppable force collides with an immovable object?
Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still wrong.
You have to be careful about your future. What does staying on your current job represents in 10 years time ? What about the new job ?
Just because your current job gives you loads of money today, doesn't mean it will be so in the future. What if you have to leave your job, how will your current experience reflect on your resumé ? Does it open or close doors ?
As you said, you have a low cost of living right now, so you can afford to make decisions. Just make sure you do looking at the future.
I have both accept and refused paycuts in the past. My decisions was always based on a single question: "What does it represent for my future?". Today I own a company, and make some good money. I still get proposals to quit it and become an employee sometimes. But, as far as I'm concerned, my future prospect with my own company (grown rate around 43%/year) is much better. But, when I started it, I've got a 60% paycut (technicaly, income reduction). But it was the correct decision.
morcego
...will not keep the debt collectors away.
I would love to ditch my current job, and get a less stressful one, I want to get a part time support one, and spend more time on my Uni course.
Sadly, due to a rough run, I have debts n such I need to clear, once I have done that, I will look at my options.
In the mean time... I'm working for "the man"
Everybody lies...users doubley so
Would and did.
You'll find that the well paying, yet boring job will eventually leave you so brain dead that you'll get to a point where nothing about the job is worth the money and you do whatever you can to get out.
If you get a decent offer now, for interesting work, and you're resultant budget (taken into account new salary) is workable then I would do it. After all you spend a great deal of your life working, so you may as well be doing something that entertains you, or you at least believe in.
Think of it like this: each situation has exactly one drawback at this moment. Your current isn't as much fun as you want, while the other pays lower. However, the variables of the current situation are known, whereas the variables of the new situation are unknown.
If things go perfectly, it's a toss up whether you choose more money or more fun. However, things never go perfectly, and if any of the variables of the new situation go sour, your decision will become a bad one.
So, in my opinion, it's a bad bet. I wouldn't touch it and not regret the pass for a moment.
Best of luck to both of us.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
I took a $15k pay cut to work at a hip retail start-up. I was an R&D consultant and now I do business development...10x more fun, 10x better people...but the pay cut hurts.
Everything is a trade-off -- no job is perfect, but you can certainly work towards your ideal job. The only problem is what comes next after you realize what you thought was ideal actually isn't so great at all.
Martini Glasses
Best job I ever had was only part-time, 20-30 hours a week at about $20/hour (and they religiously paid overtime). I was maintaining the computers and the network for a company that made museums.
Small and Big museums all over the world, like one for the Smithsonian. Or a space camp. Or an insect zoo (once a year, they have a degustation; can you imagine a zoo where you can eat the critters?).
The office was located in an old bank, so I had my own office, the server room, located in the vault (with the operational door)...
Before long, I was doing other work for planning museums, and since I had mechanical experience I was soon very much in demand to debug things the designers did...
We had interesting meetings like "where do we put the dinosaur skeleton"; or I had bosses who came to me and ask "Quick! I need a planetarium" (absolutely true - turns out he did not want the projector [I located 10 used ones] but the dome screen) or "I need a monorail and a cable car!" (true, too [I found two engineering design firms who would design the monorail]).
I didn't care much about the low pay, because it was a 10 minute walk from home.
Like you, I used to have a rather generic and cushy job which I sacrificed to do something more interesting. I used to work for a software engineering firm in Indianapolis, which is the most godawful city in the planet. I'd worked several similar jobs to get me through college, but doing it fulltime was another story. Like your job, it was great on the surface... semi-casual work environment, great pay, and the work was neither too boring nor too interesting.
:)
I'm somewhat young (so take my words with a grain of salt), and I felt that for the first time in my life I was finally in a position to fully do what I wanted with my life. Rotting away in software engineering firms wasn't what I had planned for my future, so over the course of several months, I agressively saved up my paychecks, taught myself German, and then quit my job. I moved to Berlin, where I now work freelance writing audio processing software. The nature of the work is very challenging, and I feel that I've grown a lot in terms of my programming and math abilities since I started doing this. Plus, I always loved music, and I'm also a DJ/producer, so being able to work with one's passion is now a freedom which I greatly cherish. In my old life, 5.00PM was a time I used to look forward to, as it meant the end of my working day. Now, my work doesn't feel like "work" anymore, so I let it just absorb my life.
Of course, being a DJ and working freelance doesn't exactly bring home the bacon as working in a professional firm used to. However, actually leading a life that I love is worth every cent of it. Looking back on it, the things that I had to sacrifice to get here (sold almost all of my possessions, got rid of the car, etc.) are all things that I don't even miss. Of course, there are certain hardships involved in this tradeoff, but I think overall it was worth it. If things start getting rough financially, then I'll pick up another part-time job, but I wouldn't do the corporate world again... I just don't know if I can deal with that crap anymore.
My advice to you: do what your heart tells you and never look back. Money isn't everything.
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Would You Take A Paycut for More Interesting Work?
Or looking at it another way, would I accept a pay-raise to do useless & repetitive work? It would be tempting, as it would make it easier for me to afford a home, but the answer is No.
"Teachers leave us kids alone
I'm ALREADY taking pay cuts, so why not make the #$@*() job worthwhile?
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I know that I would, because I have. I have taken a 1/3 pay cut to move jobs once, simply to move to a better and more interesting position. Money only stops you being unhappy, it doesn't make you happy; for that you need do something fulfilling and get recognition for the work that you do. Believe me when I say a better job with better management can easily be worth 1/3rd of your salary. What you really have to ask yourself is "How much is happiness worth to me?"
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
... because of the continuous cycle of jumping from one layoff to the next. And you're asking about taking a pay cut for better work? Geez, I wish I lived near your job market. The tech industry sucks here.
Having said that, you should also be prepared for disappointment. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. You may end up missing some of the friends that you made at your old job and find that your new coworkers aren't all that pleasant. It happens. At worst it will be a learning experience and will give you some perspective on how things are elsewhere; at best, you will have a found a job that makes you excited to go into work everyday.
You seem to be a popular and well-liked employee, is there any chance of getting a transfer to a position inside your company that you might enjoy more? I'm sure they'd hate to lose you.
Taking a small to moderate pay cut for a small to moderate increase in on-the-job happiness probably isn't worth it. I left a company where I was doing web application development in a language I despised for another where I was Chief Web Monkey. It was a startup like you seem to be talking about, and at first it was great--I had the opportunity to really branch out my skill set by helping to set this company up from scratch. For the first six weeks or so, I exchanged my keyboard for a tool belt, and together with the rest of the IT team, we removed and installed carpet, built walls, put together a beautiful custom NOC, et cetera. Unfortunately, after another six weeks, I realized that I hadn't traded pay for happiness--I had traded job security for coding preferences. Eventually the company went under, and the state of the economy at the time left me back at the bottom of the ladder. It was shocking how hard I had to try to scrape back to the level I was at before I left to join the startup. What I'm trying to say is--yes, I absolutely believe that a pay cut is acceptable to do something you'll really enjoy, but don't confuse a job more interesting than your own for one worth jumping ship for. When the job comes along, as yourself this question, as ridiculous as it sounds--If I was financially golden, and had no reason to work a moment for the rest of my life, would I work here? If you wouldn't even consider it, then it's not worth it. Stay where you are, do your monkey work, and cash your big paycheck. On the other hand if your answer is Yes, then jump ship immediately. Personally, I've realized that it takes considerably less money than I originally projected to have a great standard of living, especially if you've got a significant other picking up part of the tab. I'm filling in some loose ends and saving up to jump ship within the next eighteen months myself--but I'm going to do what I'd do if I was loaded, and leave being a code monkey behind as best I can.
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jonathan barket
To me, this screams "code whore", where you are billed out to do whatever the intersection of business needs and buck$ happens to be. As such, you will be under-utilized 99.99% of the time.
I speak from experience. As an employee, you are expected to work to the full extent of your abilities, but as a contractor, your time will (almost) always be spent doing work below your abilities, as most users of contractors try to rent bodies whose skills are considerably above those demanded by the task, in order to justify (?) the expense, and to ensure that they will be able to handle the work (believe it or not, contractors' qualifications are frequently exaggerated).
But to me, the real issue here is whether or not you would always wonder if you had passed on an opportunity you should have taken.
I say GO FOR IT!
The consulting firm would surely be willing to hire you back (should this new venture not work out), assuming you are on good terms with them, and don't burn any bridges by leaving to try this out. From their perspective, this experience would make you more marketable.
Of course, a lot depends upon exactly how big a pay cut is involved, and the results of any due diligence on your part as to the viability of the startup (which statistics would say will likely fail, but that probably should not be a large consideration, depending on your ability to tolerate uncertainty and risk).
Good Luck with whatever path you chose.
But be sure that you do CHOOSE a path, and not let inertia carry you along.
Well, sorta. There's a difference between a manager that knows the field, and one that does not. While I can not expect my boss to know all that I do, and perhaps I wouldn't really want him to, I do like my boss to know the basics of the technology so he/she can appreciate the magnitude of the work, timetables, impacts, etc.
Being an IT manager is not so different then being a project manager. Almost everything done is a project in some way or another, besides the normal daily admin tasks that don't generally fill the day. If you have an IT-illiterate boss that is capable of effectively running projects and trusting his "experts" (employees) it can work. Unfortunately, I've met very few effective project managers, so to balance it out, it helps to have a boss that knows the technology - even a little.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Would you leave an otherwise perfect job to work on something more interesting?
Job enjoyment is part of your total compensation package, just like health insurance and a paycheck. Most parts of your compensation package are a mix of dollars and risk (eg: checks are almost pure dollars, stock options include risk). Satisfaction is intangible, so it's hard to quantify in relation to the others. It is very hard to calculate, and inherently personal. If you're young, it may be a very good investment to sacrifice some satisfaction now if it will open more doors in the future.
Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents?
Since you have low overhead, it's probably best to look at the pragmatic issues from a long-term perspective. Getting paid more now will make it easier to convince a future employer that you are worth more - future employers will ask your current compensation and base their offer at least in part on it. At the same time, getting pigeon-holed as a VB script guy will hamper future earning potential.
That is to say, aside from the intangible issues like satisfaction, if you don't have large fixed expenses you should be picking your jobs at this phase in your career based on their ability to contribute to your resume.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Dude, your job is sweet! Do you really think a high-stress job with less pay and co-workers you hate is going to make you happy? Get a hobby, coach pee-wee football, volunteer with some open-source project but for dear God don't quit your job! No job is perfect but yours is damn close. If you can find fulfillment outside of your work then consider yourself one lucky son of a bitch.
I am currently in the same position, with my job being relativley well paid and laid back. However, you should also look at what you like. Do you REALLY like systems programming? Who knows, you could hate it more. At first I thought I would like low level coding. I mean look at all the cool devices coming out of places like Apple and Motorola. Working on embedded systems just looks awesome. You can go to your parents and say "Hey, I made this". However, after working on it for some time, it really was just not my cup of tea. I realized I liked higher level applications.
If you can, take this opportunity to learn what you really want to do. If you can finish most of the work management gives you before the work day is over, start picking up stuff and try a little bit of everything in CS. Try some web dev, low level stuff. There are plenty of OSS projects out there that you could try, modify, and see how you like it. Do something you think would be cool and at the same time learn. If you like low level, try making an mp3 decoder. You get to read specs, play with bits. Or do a kernel module.
Just my 2 cents, good luck. BTW i am in the same situation, with plenty of start ups in this area.
> They say when you get old and look back on your life you tend to regret things you didn't do, rather than things you did.
Absolutely. I fit that category.
I had a real unripened talent and penchant for drawing, but I never developed it. I loved it too. Talents come in all shapes and forms and generally engage the person and reward them with satisfaction.
Instead of pursuing that career (or more importantly, talent), I earned several computer degrees in college and traveled the developer/manager tract. What a waste.
There really should be some sort of elementary school curriculum standard across all states which identifies and directs talents into their respective fields. Advisors don't cut mustard. Nor do expensive magnate schools. Cranking out a conveyor belt workforce is the real tragedy in a market driven government. Hopefully, a new government Rennaisance will surface and improve upon the crafts and trades from guilds of traditions past.
Why not keep doing your mundane, high-paying job while it's still there and develop real software on your own time? Find a niche and start up a small business that you maintain in the evenings and on weekends. You'd be utilizing your talents and you'd be earning more money than either of the other jobs. Plus, you'd get to be your own boss at the side job. If you decided to change jobs in the future, you could list both for your work experience. If I were going to take a pay cut to leave a job I didn't really like but didn't really hate, I'd have to really really love the other one. Just my naive two cents.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
Why's the work more interesting? If it's a company that's going somewhere, you might not be making less for very long.
There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
Of all the horrors of Capitalism, those of us on the beneficial side of the equation never see, the degradation of acadamia is of noticable concern.
Now, hold on. An academic utopia is just as foolish as the mis-conceptions of Karl Marx in concluding he was striving for a socio-economic "utopia"; which, he wasn't the word is the only impressive vocabulary word a person is able to muster in retort. However, Capitalism has had real effects on acadamia while so many of us refuse to see any harm of a well educated society through and through; the key word here is "refuse", becuase in reality a society that's over-educated... suicide bombers, famine, "terrorists"--there are very well learned men who also have experienced, first hand, the social aspects of the Middle East, and there is strong argument to suggest such horrors are in fact on account of everyone having a degree. It is true, in the Middle East, it's not uncommon for your waiter to have the educational equivalent of a Masters Degree or a Ph.D. Bottom line is, you can't hire everyone; and someone must do the dirty work.
Now, back to the upper echelons of the problem I'm proposing. I'm in my second effort to complete a degree. And, even after my completion I'll not let arrogance cloud the fact that it is, in all philosophical meaning, worthless and a waste of time. I want a Mathematics degree, and there's no class of any University in the world teaching the students any information a moron can't find within his town's library. Which, for all practical purposes, for most fields there exists a diploma for, you could very well have taught yourself and saved thousands of dollars and have attained the knowledge far quicker and at your own pace. Which leads me to my parallel philosophy; if you actually learn anything in college from strict class ciriculum, you aren't that interested in the subject.
The fact is, most of the people today are going to college not becuase they are deeply interested in the subject, but becuase they think that they will make lots of money. They really don't want to go to college, but feel compelled to becuase the myraid fields one takes an interest in overwhelms any investor to the point a Genetic Engineer might think their prospective VC is a complete idiot. Yet, economically, the VC would like to have some level of assurance with his investment, and loves to see a workforce of "degrees" from "accredited" educational institutions. He has no other knowledge; to speak nothing of the fact of the essence that drew him to the company to begin with, perhaps they truely are idiots? HINT: He wouldn't have been there anyways had he figured they weren't doing well. Go figure right? So, this creates an interdependancy of it's self.
50 years ago, a person with a degree in any field well knew that field and probably lovingly endured it's discipline till the day they died. Today, far less proportionally walk across the stage with such eternal passion and it's becuase of the above predicament. Then, to further the problem, colleges have gotten into the habit of doing whatever to help people pass, becuase they want those graduation numbers to attract more students and hopefully land a famous face in the process; think about it, what really makes Harvard attractive? Harvard is attractive not becuase of it's name or inherent fact of existance, it's attractive becuase upteen million presidents, dignitaries, senators and other rich and powerful people have attended the school...
When you have some one at the keyboard, who is only looking forward to a fat paycheck, his work will NEVER be as honest or resemblant of the quality of someone else who is passionate about programming. Never, the self-motivation isn't there, the goals are askewed. One is only doing whatever is necessary for a paycheck, while the others goal is more inline with his job... he want's to code up a function that is so good, it even sparks an internal happiness for hisself.
This is a spreading virus, of rampant proportions. It a
"More interesting work" seems to almost always mean "more time doing it." I don't know about you, but I have (and want to continue to have) a life outside of the office. The older I get, the more I realize that I can stand to do work that's boring for 8 hours, because that guarantees me that I can do what I want to do when I get home. And I can promise you, what I want to do isn't what I did at the office. When I had a more challenging position, I was only mediocre at it, and the management dictated that I spent a lot of time doing it (12-14 hrs/day, plus 2-3 weekends a month). Now I'm doing what some people might consider boring (web work), but I'm good at it. I'm able to stand out, get the raises, get the bonuses, and still get it done in a normal work day. I can't even remember the last time I worked a weekend.
I guess my point is this: If you're bored, look for something to fill that void outside of work. Work is not (or at least, shouldn't be) your entire life. Now, if after some careful thought you decide that the only thing that will fill the void in your life is more work, then by all means go for it.
Ask yourself this. Do you like your job? Do you like where and who you work for and with? Do you enjoy your job for the most part? If you can answer yes, then why should it matter whether or not your job is truly your college major. I can say personally, that I would rather have a job that I enjoy, over a job that may be more directly related to my major that I wouldn't enjoy. As I see it, you have it pretty good. It's not selling out as far as I'm concerned.
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?
I hope you read down this far. :)
You described your job as: "high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss." From this I am guessing it's a low-stress job.
Don't leave. It sounds like a great workplace. You can find ways to relieve the boredom by being creative. Work on open source projects of your own outside of work. You'll be very lucky to find a job where the stress level's low, the people are great and the benefits sound. Work is work as high-end enterprise developers will tell you.
If IT or office work is not for you by all means make a change. But the grass isn't really greener outside.
Everyone knows that damage is done to the soul by bad motion pictures. -Pope Pius XI
You've omitted probably the most important clues to help us out: How much you make now, how much of a paycut it would be, how many bills you have.. etc..
I say, if your current job is good, stay until you find one that pays more. For me, money comes first. That's why we work. Obviously, I won't work at someplace that sucks, but I'll never take a paycut to leave. You can find work that you like, and have it pay more at the same time. The good thing is that you're working now, so you can take your time finding that great job.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I a word, yes. I am very inerested in the work that I do now and I'm well compensated for what I do, but if something came up that I find more interesting I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. Of course in taking my opinion into consideration, you should keep in mind that I'm 60 years old and ready to retire if life in the workplace doesn't meet my needs.
I've had several times in my life when I've taken a pay cut to do something interesting and that would force me to grow as an individual. One transition cost me $80K/yr, and two cost me $45K/yr each. In every case, I really enjoyed the change, and if I had to do it over again I would in a heartbeat. Don't get me wrong - the change was hard. But the rewards of doing something different, at least for me, were well worth it. I should also note that some changes netted me far more than I ever thought was possible. And for what it's worth, I'm married and have kids, which means that all these changes were high risk.
No way, But I would do a boring crappy job for a huge raise!
Hello no! That's what hobbies are for!
Jds, wishing I had your job...
If you hate your current job, and the new job doesnt go under in the next year ..like 80% of all new businesses. Will the new place pay out in the long run ?
.. learn, preferabally quickly, so you still meet the deadline.
.. shares over options, because if the company takes a bath - you can at least write off the loss if your a shareholder. Find out how much working capitol they have, and if the officer that is trying to hire you wont tell you that - you already have your answer.
.then took a job for X-10k .. They will say : 'Hell .. this guy was willing to work for X-10k .. and now he is looking for work again, offer him X-12k'
.. I mean .. unless your coming to work for me :)
In the real business world (past low to mid level programming monkey jobs) higher risk is rewarded with greater compensation - not less.
Management, and officers of companies get paid MORE to take risks, thats why they will put their jobs, and themselves on the line more willingly.
I left a fortune 500 job, very stable - boring as crap, for a riskier startup 4 months ago. I've been doing 16 hour days now, but I get paid more - and had a great package with stock shares. [SHARES, not options on shares.] Our stock price has already doubled over what it was issued to me as, and we are approaching 2nd phase of investment. [When VC's with real money start to step up to the plate.]
Before going to this new company, I would make sure that they spell out what your package will be. Don't bother with job description - its not a big co. In the small co. universe, you don't have a job description - you are expected to do what needs to be done, if you don't know how to do it
Find out what your benifits will be, find out if you get shares
all in all, anyone - and i MEAN anyone, who is not a slack or clueless worker, should never take less for their job. ever. You don't know how long it will take you to get back to where you were, and what you will have to give up because of that. If you don't like that job, you can't go get a new one at your old salary, because employers will see you were getting paid X .
Your time (if you are young, you may not get this) is NOT replaceable. and the two years it takes you to get back to your current income level is still a loss, as you lost the 3-6% raises you would have gotten at your old job, plus your vacation time etc. Years of your life can't be replaced - don't sell them short
good luck.
Keep in mind, safe & secure may be boring, but you get to see your family, and know that your going to get paid.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
I used to work for an investment bank. It was great pay but basically involved a lot of work with databases, programming them, migrating them, etc, and after a year I'd decided it wasn't what I wanted to do at all.
I now work for a games studio. The coding is more challenging and rewarding (C++/graphics API's versus Java/Corba/SQL etc.), the results are infinitely more fun and interesting and best of all, the working environment is almost the polar opposite from where I used to work. The pay isn't as good, but I thoroughly recommend this kind of career move to anybody not happy where they are. In fact, only reason I wouldn't recommend it is if you have big financial committments, e.g. family/mortgage...
"This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."
Right this second, Any Job I take is gonna be pay-bonus (I am unemployed) but I have always said, and done, work jobs that are fun, not necessarily entertaining, But Its something I am passionate about. I never take a job that will bore me in 3 days. It may sound stupid to some, but I rather enjoy my job and get OK pay than get rich and hate my job. When you dislike your job, you hate waking up in the morning, your work performance is poor. When you like a job, you can't wait to goto work, you volunteer for projects, etc.
SimonTek
I can tell you from experience, if the work is drudgery it is a bad situation! Co-workers come and go, but drudgery is never ending; and it constantly wears on you. Ten years will pass, and suddenly you'll realize your in a bad Dilbert cartoon. You won't be sure how you got there; you'll just realize that's where you are. If you think taking a pay cut now is painfull, try changing careers after ten years of salary increases and one or two promotions but narrow experience. It isn't easy. Regardless whether you take this oportunity or another, you need to move on. Too many people find themselves trapped in a job by a combination of comfort and fear. The working conditions are good, the co-workers friendly why move? What if the new job isn't all it's cracked up to be? What if the company fails? What if, what if what if? Don't let fear keep you rooted in place.
A project manager should naturally know more than his staff as he needs to make decisions that require technical knowledge of the issues involved.
A general business manager should not know more than his staff as they are the ones who should be carrying out the tasks and be able to make the technical decisions themselves.
A conflict between these two is what cost me my last job. I was required to be a business manager by the law firm's new CFO but knew far more technology than my staff. The small size of my team relative to the projects we were undertaking and the demands of the firm support staff and other managers created a situation where I had to be more hands-on than the CFO wanted. In the end I was replaced by a non-technical manager with no warning whatsoever.
I'm filling time doing the private consulting gig but would rather be in full-time project management.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
If you like your job (in your field) and need to challenged - then I would say the best bet is to get more education. Whether an MBA or technical Masters - at the very least you will have a greater chance to move onto something better and more challenging at the same time.
Yes!
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
Money is great, but all it represents is the investment of your time. It is a limitless commodity. Your time, unfortunately, is not.
I watched Groundhog Day recently. It's nice that Bill Murray learned to love and to play the piano, but I probably would've spent the first million years in the public library. If they'd had the internet then, maybe the first billion years.
Anyway, I digress. You don't have a billion years, you have three score and ten, plus or minus two score. For a huge chunk of that time, say forty hours a week for several decades, you're at work.
Think about what kind of life you want to have. If it's a life filled with a lot of stuff, maybe you belong at a job where you can buy it all. If it's a life where you do what you want after age 40 or 50, maybe you belong at a job where you can save up the millions of dollars necessary. But if it's a life where you do meaningful work, maybe you need to leave.
The meaning of work is intertwined with the meaning of life. I can't tell you what the meaning of your life is. Even if I knew, you wouldn't listen; at some level, you have to discover it for yourself. 40 hours a week is more than a third of your waking life, so figure out if you need your work to mean anything to you.
Also consider that your work is reshaping your personality. I got back to graduate CS after several years of work that was often drudgery, managed by someone else, with my work time accountable to the nearest six minutes. Experiences like that wear away at you; the thousand tasks you do will recreate your mind. Figure out if they're changing you in a direction you like.
Paul Graham wrote a good essay about work recently.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
When you should be asking your girlfriend? If that relationship is going to last, don't you think she'd want to be involved in the decision-making process too?
After all, any changes you decide to make to your plans for your life might affect her plans for your life.
My suggestion is to change your current job to one that is more interesting in your current environment - don't take the other job. So "you only live once, take the other job" sounds great, but you've got a wonderful environment to work in now; don't change that, you're indeed living now. What you should do is tell your boss matter-of-factly that you are considering the change simply for the better (more interesting) work, *however* you love your co-workers, flexi-time, et al. Make the suggestion that you want some more interesting work with a percentage of your time, ala Google's 80/20. You'll likely find that the novelty of "doing what you wanna do" wears off and it's nice to just get some stuff done, stuff that directly adds value to the company via your job description. (Note, I've been self-employed for the past five years and there are days where it's nice when I have to just get what would otherwise be drudge-work done).
Peace of mind in your work environment is the most important thing as the job has the ability to change, but a person will likely always be a jerk/lazy/make bad coffee or whatever you find you dislike about co-workers.
I'm blessed to have good partners and work I mostly enjoy, but I don't make very good money. Would I change to your position? Nope, not a chance.... but that's because I put in five years and now make enough for a decent living with the potential for greater prosperity in the future. Ask me that 2-3 years ago and I would have jumped at your job.
One last factor I'd consider, since I don't know you, is to determine how ambitious you are. If your a real go-getter, then by all means, quit your job tomorrow morning, go home and start working and don't quit for the next two years (except for the occaisional bathroom/food breaks - sleep and free time is a no-no). You follow this and you will very likely not have to go through what I did, will create something viable that can be sold for an absurd amount of money, then you can retire and do WTF you wanna do.
Otherwise, be happy with your already enjoyable job and feel glad that you are producing to help the company. If you work it right, in your 20%, you'll be able create something of incredible value and reap the rewards due to you from the very company you would have left.
Good luck!
If not, do your own, more intesting work on the side. That's what I do.
My current employer, for the last 7 years, has me doing network & systems management. It's somewhat repetative, although I have learned all sorts of new stuff - like how to migrate from Novell to Samba/FreeBSD - but I never let that stop me from doing side projects that give me more fun times.
The key to this, of course, is to make sure that you didn't sign away your IP to your company - ie, make sure you own what you produce off-hours. Some places will make you sign away your rights to anything, even stuff you worked on off-hours.
My employer isn't perfect. It's a non-profit - the pay is lower than what I should be making - but I don't have to wear a tie, I get to put my own server on the company 4.5mb Internet connection, and take any end-of-lease (or lifecycle) equipment I want home. It's also very job-secure, because I'm alpha geek and the only guy who knows how all of the systems work together :>
Poor means hoping the toothache goes away.
I say take the startup, but consider taking these steps first. My paycut on starting at my present job was 100%.
1. Eliminate debt, especially if you've been living close to your means. Cut back on unneccessary expenses.
2. 100 hour weeks kill your body. Get an HSA if your startup doesn't have a health plan. Get a physical before you start, and tell the doc that you're going to be working a startup and ask his advice.
3. 100 hour weeks are hard on your posture. Ergonomicize your office, professionally if need be.
4. Join a 24-hour gym, or better yet get some dumbbells and a pullup bar for the office. Doing a few reps loosens up the mind.
5. Stock a desk drawer with multivitamins, dried fruit, jerky, nuts, gingko biloba, etc.
6. Make sure that you get a deferred compensation package to make up for the cut.
Most importantly:
7. Your admission that your girlfriend is a "living expense" is a very telling one, and I think you should be careful. Are you spending more than $100 on Valentine's Day? Do you take her out to expensive dinners? Did you meet her before or after you started making bank? If the answer to any of these is yes, you may be in a spot of trouble. She's going to want you to keep spending money on her. She's going to treat any decision you make that results in less money with scorn, regardless of whether it's your dream. It might not be obvious to you, but almost 100% of your chance at success in a startup with less money is dependent on the whims of your Little Miss Perfect. If she doesn't like your decision, she's going to make your life a living hell. Startup hours put stress on any relationship, and you'd better take a hard look as to whether you should continue to have a girlfriend if she's not going to support your decision 110%. I'm very lucky my girl does, but we're both workaholics and we're both looking forward to a 6 week trip to China this summer so we can decompress. I hope you're similarly lucky.
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
Family. Hobby. Job. Any time one starts to lose out to the others you should start to worry. Life needs to find a ballance.
My job is actually too stimulating at the moment. I'd take a small pay cut to find a less interesting one.
TW
Currently, this is the situation I find myself in as well (I post anonymously because I know co-workers read this site and know who I am). I find my current job boring and unchallenging, though it pays me very, VERY well. So well, that my wife is able to be a stay-at-home mom, I have a very nice house, we each have a nice car and I can put a max. contribution into my 401k and other savings as well. The thing is, even though we have no debt other than a mortgage and one car payment (all CC bills are paid in full), I've dug myself a hole -- I can't leave my salary without sacrificing something. If I could get rid of the guilt I'd feel for leaving my current job, taking money from elsewhere, I'd take the other, more fun job. But sadly, I can't.
You don't mention your situation beyond a job that you find boring and the fact that there is an opportunity to do what you feel woudl bemore rewarding.
First: if you are single you have a lot more room for risk. That makes "go for it" a much easier decision.
Second: does the cut level of pay allow you to live, othewise, as you want. (Pay bills, buy Tacos & beer or Caviar and expensive wines)? Is there any other potential future compensation (do you get shares in the startup)?
Consider that you are changing type of job (from your description) so the cut may be warranted
Third: should the company fail within a year or two, or should you become disenchanted, will this job improve your resume for future work in this direction (unplanned job hopping).
In my case, I moved jobs when jobs "found me". Once I got less for the succeeding job but I changed direction (like this sounds). It works. I ended up with a 20 year ride in a great set of positions within a company and would do it all over again.
Why don't you quit your job and find a higher paying one that you would enjoy even more than your start-up offer? I am sure they exist, it just takes a bit of patience and work to find them. In the end, you would be much happier. There is nothing that says that a high paying job must be boring.
Btw, VBA is not a programming language. It is a contraption that makes businessmen feel good about themselves. Don't waste your degree. And even if you don't switch, there is nothing that is keeping you from doing personal research into whatever aspect of CS you are interested in.
You can also think about doing something else at the same firm.
In any case, whatever you decide, read Atlas Shrugged because it is a good book.
I took a pay cut to work for trolltech.
My landloard, car payment, cable, broadband, and cell phone provider won't.
No Sigs!
Well, I went a couple of rounds of pay negotiation at my present job. I gave my employer 3 alternatives:
1) Significant reduction in required hours with no cut in pay and benis or
2) A significant pay raise or
3) A moderate pay raise with an increase in vacation time.
They opted for #3. So at this time I am looking at 4 weeks annual vacation (very unusual for the US), plus holidays and some personal days. (BTW, they way I worked it out in terms of hourly pay over the year, the options worked out to be almost identical, no matter what option my employer chose).
So before bailing out, impact all your options. Maybe they can give you release time to take classes, more vacation time,working 35 hours a week etc. to keep you from being bored. A start up, speaking form experience, is a crap shoot. You could get rich. Or you could end up like me, burned out and deeply cynical, having ruined my health working insane hours for a startup and getting laid off anyway.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I'm actually in a situation where I am passionate about my work (running a computer repair department) but I am unable to run it as I would like to. Because of this, I'm seeking a mundane, 9-5 type job that has nothing to do with computers, so that I can focus on my passion in my free time, and I actually have something to look forward to when I get home. I guess both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses.
You called your job perfect yourself, so why quit? You'd be going to a startup, which may or may not last. If you want to develop/use your programming skills, why not get involved in the open source community in your spare time? Or, create a little project for yourself that'll keep you interested and utilize your skills?
I'm almost in the same situation and decided to quit. Graduated almost 3 years ago, no debt, no social life, and I was bored with my job. I was making VBA OLE Servers and boring .NET desktop apps.
I suggest saving up 6 months to 1 year worth of money, then quit. That might be hard with that girlfriend of yours, but it's worth it when you're able to do WHATEVER you want. If I have to get a "real job" again, I will, but we're too young (I'm 24) for managers to peddle their "mission-critical" bullshit on us. Right now I'm just working on a couple independent projects, losing some weight at the gym (15 pounds so far) and I have time to sleep, eat healthy and play video games. It's great!
And I highly recommend taking off the first two months after resignation to DO NOTHING. I did it... and it was EVERYTHING I thought it could be!
You could try joining an Open Source project to give yourself a challenge, something to occupy your time, and possibly tools to help make your job more exciting.
Your boss sounds like a cool enough guy. Explain to him how you feel. Who knows what little project he might be sitting on. If your boss knows two sticks from three he'll want to keep you happy/productive. A bored mind is energy wasted, If there is something that you could be doing which would better maximize your employment, they'll want you doing it.
*gasp* You don't have fun doing VBA??? Man I sure wish I was still doing that. It was great. If you get bored just ask for more projects... or take initiative and find some good automation you could be doing to streamline biz processes for your company. I love VBA... where else can you get so much done, so much automated in so little time... and make SOOOO many happy workers (as well as your boss)?? Ah the joy! 3 VBA =)
You should definitely consider not just the short-term effect of switching jobs, but how it will change your situation a few years down the track.
If you're anything like the vast majority of people, skills just fall out of your brain if you don't get a chance to practice them regularly. On the other hand, the more challenging position sounds like an opportunity to hone your skills and acquire new ones.
The upshot of this is that in five years' time, you'll probably have a sharper set of skills if you go for the more challenging job than if you stick with what you've got. Most likely you'll also have a more interesting resumé and be more employable; even if you're not planning to switch jobs again soon, it'll affect your value to the company and your negotiating power. It'll also make a difference to your enthusiasm about your work, which will feed back into everything else.
I'd say go for it.
... and never regretted it. I figure most of my waking hours are spent working and life is too short to squander. Heck, I ended up making alot more money than I would have had I stayed in the dullsville job.
However, it's been my experience that most people change jobs to get away from assholes.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
The opportunity cost of not having fun is worth switch jobs.
I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't quit your job, but I want you to realize that wishing for a job that is challenging, stable, and doesn't threaten your sanity, is a bit like wishing for a winning lottery ticket. Those jobs exist, but they're hard to come by.
Anyway, good luck!
Treat it as an investment - you're adding new skills and experience to your CV. Eventually you'll get a return on this.
I got tired of the computer industry even though I was making pretty good money in it. I left the industry entirely and went back to school to study for a different degree (Industrial Design). Bottom line is if you don't like you're job, you'll wind up not liking your life. Think about how much of your life is spent at work. It's an awful lot of it (even more than average for most people in the computer industry). If you think you can separate your work from the rest of your life and never let your work frustrations creep into your life outside the office, you are wrong (or one hell of a Zen master and you should be living a perfect life of austerity on a mountaintop somewhere subsisting on a grain of rice per day).
No amount of money is worth being miserable over.
I think most people tend to leave their current employment based on the following:
1. Mistreatment by management or co-workers, including lack of positive reinforcement.
2. Inability to create a continuous path to professional self-improvement.
3. Failure to achieve fair compensation for your efforts.
I agree. I've usually taken the option of quitting. I don't regret any of those choices -- in most cases they have translated into career advancement, by giving me options that are more likely to pay off for me in the long term. However, speaking as one who actually has a job he wouldn't mind keeping for a while (for once), I can say that I wish my career had become more stable earlier in my life. That would have given me more of an opportunity to start putting money away. Depending on what part of the country you live in, the downpayment on your first home can be a massive thing. I live in San Francisco, and if I wanted to get in on property in this town I should have done it at least five years ago. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to put together the nest egg.
Also, don't underestimate the possiblity of early retirement. My parents retired before sixty and they have never been happier in their whole lives. I know that for young people it seems ideal to have all your fun when you're young. But go figure how much more fun you can have when the fun never actually has to stop, because you've worked it out so that you never have to have a job again.
Breakfast served all day!
I'd say go for it if you are single and got no financial obligations to take care of. Since the work is interesting, you'll enjoy it so much that a little paycut won't matter. Or if things turn out for worse, you can always have the experience of working in a start-up on your resume. And you might even get your mundane job back.
Why would anyone still want to work for an American company in this day and age?
Because a lot of them are still fine places to work.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The answer is exposed by answering the question "do you live to work or work to live?". If programming is what you live for, by all means go for lower pay and better work. If the job is the means to an end and allows you the luxury of putting in 8.00 hours per day so you can do what you really love in the early evening, stick with the boring stuff.
I've done the boring stuff and I've done more-or-less leading edge, interesting stuff. Both had their place in my life. At the moment I'd take a pay cut *and* less interesting work if I could work a few less hours and play a few hours more each day.
Left a high-paying slacker job at M$ for a low-paying, working-my-ass-off job at a startup. Twice. Two of the best decisions I've ever made.
I'm cto of an organization that offers everything you mentioned.
except the pay, of course.
but there's a trade-off in everything. its not black and white, there are gray areas in everything.
you're young - take risks now. when you're old you can't, and if you don't when you're young, you'll regret it.
Ya know, I was 2 semesters shy of graduating college with a degree in CS. Instead, I went to paramedic school, went through the fire academy, and now make more than some of my friends from the CS program, I only work 10 days a month, and I enjoy more job security than I could possible have imagined in IT.
:)
I would take a pay cut to deal with less of the crapola that invariably comes with working for a public safety entity. I also think sometimes that a degree in child psychology would have been a better path had I known from the beginning I would be a firefighter.
I love the work I do. And in my down time at the firehouse...I design websites...for fun.
From the sounds of it, you currently have the perfect job to enable the formation of your own company on the side. This idea that you have to work for someone else is flawed. Are you not creative? Do you not have your own ideas about how things could work better or some killer idea that no one has ever brought to market before?
Even if you lack those things, there are plenty of mundane things you can do to make money in this wacky computer world that, while maybe not as intellectually stimulating as you'd prefer, will pay you at least as much as that lower paying job. The exceptions are that you can't get fired and your success or failure rests solely on you, not some nitwit ceo who blows the vc money on hookers and coke.
So the wise path would look something like:
1. Keep your current job.
2. Identify the technology areas that interest you.
3. Construct business models that allow you to startup and grow while keeping your job.
4. Build it up until it is profitable enough to meet your minimal lifestyle requirements.
5. Quit your day job and be an entrepreneur.
6. Hire code monkeys and drones to do the menial crap.
7. Rinse. Repeat.
The alternative:
1. Keep your current job.
2. Be miserable.
3. Die asking "What if?"
or
1. Quit your current job.
2. Take a lower paying job that interests you.
3. Ask yourself wtf were you thinking and start drinking.
4. New company folds and you're unemployed and unemployable.
5. Drink more.
6. Masturbate furiously to penisbird, old cDc issues, and getting first post.
6. Die in a puddle of your insufflated and inhaled vomit, having bitten off your tongue (Elvis style), mumbling "mmfmfmmmmfamfm" and kicking yourself as your non-corporeal soul looks down at your pitiful excuse for a free, sentient being with the knowledge that you get to come back to Earth (_AGAIN_) in your reincarnated form as a colon-dwelling nematode in a homosexual prostitute named Juan in Mexico*.
Since you're "Asking Slashdot", you probably lack the capability to be a leader. Having not considered this superior lifestyle path, you are likely too incompetant to succeed in any of the ventures and actually look forward to the oh-so-sweet taste of partially digested refried beans and being bathed in spastic spurts of suppository-like, fluidic protein injections.
Get a fucking clue.
* You would not even be worthy of residence in the host colon of a Gay Niggers Association of America member. Mad props to timecop.
Hmm.. It does sound like you have it made as you are.. Though when it comes down to it, does your job make YOU happy? I know you were asking those other flamin, hating others around here, but I'll be honest, if you think you will be happier(not richer) at one, or the other job, then do it. It's all personal preference. If you want to be better for you and your familly and it includes a pay cut, well, then do it, if it can be budgeted. There are some limits.. If your single, and live alone, then it really and truely is a one-sided story... It truely is ALL ABOUT YOU. If you are maried, have kids, etc, then it isn't. But, at the same time, it kinda is. You still have a BIG BIG say in what YOU do. If you want to change from one job to another, then it is your choice.. That's all I have to say.. Let the FLAMERS take the stage...
And it was worth every dime. I left a job that was boring to me and that I was so unhappy with it was a fight with myself to go to work every morning. So I pulled up roots, put my house on the market and moved to a better job location. I was formerly living in Knoxville, TN where the job market sucks. Now I have a job where I do work I love, work with people I like, and I'm excited to get up and go to work every morning. It's worth it, UNLESS the pay cut is so extreme that it would greatly and negatively affect your lifestyle. I say that for me it was definitely worth it and I would to it again if given the same situation.
"The detachment of worldly things is the key to the cessation of suffering."
I've been a co-founder of 5 startups since 1995, and the chaotic results of what can happen within a startup are absurd... but most likely, will involve someone trying to screw you out of what is rightfully yours. So here's the FIRST step you want to take if you are thinking of joining into startup venture, and I can't stress this one point enough.
Get an independant lawyer to protect your interests.
Don't just "go with the compny's lawyer", and certainly don't "have faith" that your partners will look out for your interests. From partners failing to sign royalty contracts after the work was finished, when royalties were agreed upon before the work was started to the board seperating you from the company on accusations from a total slut of a partner for spending money.. from your own bank account.The bottom line is, we're all in business to mke money, and not everyone is concerned with the how.
It sounds like you've got a really good job alot of people I know that have been laid off from startups would love to have after their experience. Maybe you're just complacent, maybe it's just a phase. Maybe you need to bring in an xbox 360 to your office for when you get bored. Maybe you should spend more time looking at porn. Noone here should pretend to know what you NEED (except for legal counsel) ;)
Oh nd one other thing, it might not be a bad idea to bring in an accountant for a few hundred bucks to evaluate the company before making the switch. If you can't afford to hire a lwayer and an accountant, then you definately can't afford to leave your current job. Believe me, if you are seriously considering making a big switch like this, and shifting to a more entrepreneurial role, your lawyer and account will be your two greatest allies for success.
Any fool can criticise, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin
"I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay"
Are you sure you are a recent grad? Last time I was in college, 2 main daunting things after graduation was paying off the loan and paying off the another loan (aka credit card).
"so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend."
OK, there is your problem. Get rid of the girlfriend and join the nerdom as we unit in celibacy. Then we can talk about that fun and exciting low paying job.
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
... is going to wear thin eventually. If you go around taking pay cuts for something that looks more interesting at the time, eventually you'll be working for nothing and still bored.
If I understand you correctly, you work with great people and you get paid very well. But you are unfulfilled by the work that you do. Perhaps you feel that you are not improving yourself.
If my guess is correct, then you could probably accomplish everything you do in less time than you are currently doing. If an interesting project came along at work, you could fit it in with everything you are currently doing. Or you would risk dropping an assignment or two to make room.
Here's my suggestion: Look around for something that interests you inside your company or in the world of open source. If you can make a case for why it is important for your current employment, go pitch it to management to allow you to spend time on it.
If it is interesting to you, but not really related to your current job, take it on as a hobby off the clock. You could even offer management at your current job to pay you less in exchange for more freedom to work on outside interests.
The end result: You work with all the same great people as before, plus other interesting and great people. You get all or most of the same benefits and compensation. You also stretch yourself and feel that you are doing something important and interesting.
Your current employer gets a more satisfied employee. They probably benefit by your exposure to new ideas and methods. Everybody wins all the way around.
Quit a six figure job in IT in 1999 to join the VFX crew for Farscape. My pay dropped overnight by 60% but I got to make spaceships for a living instead of fixing servers. I make more now obviously, but since the show got cancelled I've mostly been working on TV commercials. I sometimes think I should go back into IT before I stab some agency fuck in the head with my Wacom pen.
I find that I'm far more productive when I enjoy what I'm working on. Being a far more productive employee makes you a more valuable one and gives you more leverage to negotiate a larger salary later on.
I find that salary is fairly negotiable, whereas the job you do and the people you work with are hard to change.
- Mr.Oreo
Good call. I forgot that one. Lawyer up!
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
I dunno about you, but as long as the paycut isn't ridiculously unreasonable, I wouldn't mind doing work that's a bit more stimulating.
Happiness depends on how you define it. If earning more money doing something money makes you unhappy, deal with it.
tell him how you feel and ask for more challenging work.
Would you work an extra 10-20 hours/week for more interesting work?
What would you like to develop? Web browser? Video codec? VoIP? DB engine? Printer driver? Embedded controller? Game console?
Pick an existing project or start a new one. Work for free so that nobody can demand more time than your current work schedule allows.
Now you have the same great pay and benefits. You work with the same great people. You also do things that are interesting and fulfilling.
I quit a high stress job with a big company for one that pays less, is boring as heck and many people there do not know how to copy and paste but it is stress free and many people have been there 20 years or so. I wouldnt go back to the other job for anything even though it was much more challenging and paid much more.
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly. It just happens to be particular about who it makes friends with.
Your post indicates your youth and inexperience. It also shows that you are naive. I was like that once. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT JOB.
;).
When things are good at your present job, you have more opportunities to grow yourself and your career, especially if you have a good repoire with your boss. Have you ever thought about taking courses in Project Management? Have you ever tried to use your recent grad talents at work? As a recent grad, you really don't have that much experience to really know without some more guidance. Ask your boss for more interesting work if you think you're wasting time. Ask your boss to put you in charge of a project or deployment. Take the initiative and make your mistakes (and learn from them) here first. Get more experience and think about what you want to do for your career. Ask to be in on interviews to query candidates. A big multinational firm may have opportunities in other areas, so ask for a transfer or a rotation. Sometimes, variety can help direct your attention. When you find your niche, you'll know it.
Your girlfriend may become your wife and then you might need to think about kids and then put them through preschool/private school/college/etc and also try to worry about retirement and making sure you stay healthy. Get your ducks in a row.
It's OK to have fun anytime. Just be passionate about everything you do and you will have fun. Goofing off is not fun and teaches you nothing and steals time from the company that pays you.
Don't become complacent at this early stage in your career. Don't jump around job-to-job thinking your CS degree is going to waste. And, don't take paycuts unless you know (or at least have a picture of) your outcome(s). Don't forget to network, network, network. Don't ever think you are selling out. You are doing what is best for you.
Startups are a great experience for someone in your position and your stage of life, and sometimes taking a risk like this is a good way to reenergize and find your calling. I won't discourage you from making a jump, but just know what you're getting into. Recent grads getting into startups can be tough unless you're a rockstar (or know someone there already). Learn about how startups work and what an exit strategy is and how to deal with ISOs for your taxes when you make your millions
(I tried to include as many cliches and quips where possible).
Sorry, but this is Day Three of isolation on the couch from "The Night the Toilet Cried". I need something else to do but make emesis trips to the euphemism.
I haven't had to pull the ripcord, but when we got married nineteen years ago, we worked in the same place (hospital), but with differing careers, goals, salaries, essentially the same benefits, although she had a little more Paid Ttime Off from working there longer. We knew, after some experience beyond the two years I'd been out of school and my own summer business(es), that it would be better for my sanity to have some some free license to take advantage of these situations so we put all of our benefits during that enrollment (Fall '86) through her. I knew I might find a small, smallish, or (better!) startup (although it took me many years to find the right one of those)). To prevent money, and more likely, stability, benefits, and salary from interfering quite very much from the decision-making process, this seemed the right approach and always has. Having acquired the right house at the right time helped as well. Refinance at the proper time, equity loans, etc. and life is much less stressful outside of work; and at work, I'm not distracted by the reality of the outside world.
One of the first questions these days seems to be salary? As if that's always going to be a deal-breaker. Sometimes, people won't go past that as though someone might get a woody, then experience sticker shock from the salary requirements. I was taught young that the first one to actually name a number, loses. But there are two things to know: 1: to be able to say, "I think when we've passed the point of knowing we have a good match you can offer something equal to what I'm bringing to the table"; 2: what I'm actually worth in a particular market [1]. (it's also a good question to keep in your interview quiver, particularly software whores (contract|consult). If someone's being placed in an environment where they're making half of what the people are making, their attention has a tendency to stray because they keep hearing cha-ching. It also causes co-worker problems, but that's a management issue because of all of the variables in the equation. David Schwimmer took care of Friends early on by suggesting the entire cast have one financial negotiator so money wouldn't tear them apart at a later date. Looking back, it was pretty astute. Sure, they had individual issues from the real-world (doesn't or doesn't she want a baby? can she or can't she get|stay pregnant? are they together or split? does he or doesn't he have an addiction problem? is he willing to admit it and get treatment? are they willing to volunteer any of this? are they required to volunteer any of this?) but they knew they were on equal footing financially. An interesting situation: at one time, late in the series (obviously, X-Files), Gilliam Anderson suddenly found she was working for half of what David Duchovny was. I figured it must have been like a lights-out key party. The lights come on and surprise! , you're with your sister. (Perhaps at a secondary level, it was like watching Drew & Mimi having sex).
____________________
[1]. It's also a sign of your overall awareness of the real-world. Imagine being offered half|twice what you're expecting, despite knowing your number is half|twice what it should be. Either there's extenuating circumstances on the part of one party, or someone's unreasonable. A couple of weeks ago, I had a headhunter contact me (specifically) and I knew where he'd gotten his information based upon certain keywords[2] and when they had been added or removed. Up front, it was "$20/hour to be the star Access+ASP programmer". I asked them if this was for a charity or no-profit organization. It was a b
Not in a million years. I have worked for many different employers from Government to corporate and it is all the same. They would like you to work your ass of for as little pay as possible. Do not ever sell yourself short. The employers I have worked for are after cash flow or proving budget needs. They are not looking out for your best interest. If you have enough experience and have a proven record you can call the shots not the employers.
I have seen so many companies try to make themselves out to be the best employer in the world then you are attached to a pager 24/7 then the top level managers guilt you into thinking you owe them the world.
It is about pay because in business it's about money.
I might sound cynical but I've gotten burned several times by employers.
Your job scenario sounds ideal. At a company like that, opportunities can always be created to apply your computer-science skills in more meaningful ways. You can always make suggestions or perhaps eventually head your own department that fills your desired job function. But you're also young, so you can probably afford to take more risks too. Personally, I'd rather work at a company I can make realistic, reliable contributions to than chase start-up pipe dreams. To me, a pay cut isn't a concern. I'd usually be willing to take lower pay for a better opportunity. For example, I'd rather work for cheaper at Google than for double the pay at a financial institution.
On the contrary... the best thing about having plenty of money is not having to worry about money any more.
Depends what you gain and what you lose.
Personally, if diffrent isn't really significant to one self and it means one is more instrested in new work, I'd say go for it.
My philosophy is that life is about keeping moving. To keep moving one needs is both change and sometimes letting go things that overpower one, like work. Work doesn't end during my lifetime, question is more about does one it easy way or difficult way.
It's also very important to keep one self in such state of mind, that you can honestly say you're intrested what you do.
Having higher pay for boring job may sound good idea. Until you notice you're not intrested to current job and don't want new challanges either. Because you're used to the good pay that takes toll of you.
Avoid that, if you can. Keep yourself fresh and moving.
Sure there are situations what I suggest above isn't practical. Havign mortage and big family may limit choices and cause some hard choises between personal pleasure and thinking it 'all'. However as long there isn't any really overriding factors, I'd wager what I say above is essentially flawless. Having more intresting work and lower pay, can be considered an investment for future too.
Compared to staying in one place and not doing anything new or goin anywhere.
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody knows has the trouble seen me, even I sometimes wonder why I write these line
Yes, definitely. In fact, I did so several years ago. I left an easy, very well-paying (but very boring) job and became a full-time Ph.D. student. It has been one of the best decisions in my life. The funny thing is, I nowadays earn more than I ever did before (well, after finishing my thesis), because I am specialized in a certain area, know how to focus, and enjoy my research work a lot. Everybody needs a challenge in life. So yes, do it!
If the hours are long and boring then you may wish to switch.
Otherwise, you can find interesting things to do after work.
If you are not _allowed_ to do interesting things after work, because of your job, then your job sucks, switch.
I'd probably be up for taking a pay cut to get a more interesting job, but the problem is that since my job pays so well, it's hard to get motivated to go job hunting. That's where my boss got it right -- if you pay your employees well enough, they'll be too lazy to quit.
There's a lot to be said for making a lot of money early, invested well, it can keep you in food, clothing, shelter and health insurance when you're old (your governments policies and/or fiscal malfaesence may vary). There's also a lot to be said for enjoying your life, and never, ever, talking to an SEC investigator ever again.
I'm a nature photographer.
...by contributing to a challenging open source project. How about that?
Look to the long term. Startups aim to well, start up and make it big. Assess what you think the startup's chances of successes are, and how much you expect to gain financially if it succeeds. Ask the startup for more details if you want to. Get assurances of what you will get in the event of a buyout or IPO. Startups are not all equal.
Assess the impact on your career path if you take up his offer and the company does fold in a year or two. Could you go on to do something similar for someone else at a good salary? Would it be better pay than what yiu get now? More worryingly given what you say, assess the impact on your career if you don't move. Will you be stuck with VBA for life? Don't just consider your current salary, consider how much that salary can grow.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
I've got an idea. I'll take over your job and you can have mine.
I'm a contractor. I do linux administration for various companies in my area.
I've worked with several fortune 500 firms.
I work maybe 4 days a month if I'm lucky.
but wow, is the work ever exciting!
so, how about it, I'll trade my exciting job for your boring one.
They're using their grammar skills there.
I quit a development job at a large investment bank in NYC 5 months ago to move to California and work in video game development. Exact same deal - bank had great pay but was as fun as watching paint dry. Took at 50% pay cut and a junior level position at the new place.
It was best decision of my (short) life so far.
But I also have no mortgage, no kids and I had to basically break up with a long term girlfriend who stayed on the East Coast. Those factors were significant in my decision.
If you, obviously, find your current work enviroment unchalanging, and you have no money problems, why not work for the startup. There, with the skills you say you have you might make a big diffrence, the company might just break trought and you'ld make shit loads of money and have fun. If it doesn't work out, you can always get another job, it's bubble 2.0 man!
Superb Hosting
Oh, also the weather here is several times better than the UK. And the women. Er...and the food too.
throw new NoSignatureException();
As long as I can pay my bills and get myself a new DVD once every while I'm fine with pretty much any pay. Doing boring work is murder in the long run. You should always try to learn and explore new things. If your current work isn't doing that for you anymore, you're better off finding something else.
I would take the bigger paycheck and spend my hobbie time creating something cool/continue learning. I see work as a paycheck that lets me do what I really want.
No sig for you!!
"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do." Bob Dylan.
Your question about leaving leaving a mundane, well paid job for a more interesting but lower paid one..
My answer: Without even thinking about it, and have done so before. I work the usual 9-5, so 40 hours a week at work, the same as most I expect. I spend more time at work than I do with family and friends. In one of my past jobs it was difficult to drag myself there, alright money but insanely dull. You don't realise the effect a job you don't enjoy takes on you until you leave it. You quickly adjust to the different income and find ways around it, but the difference it makes to your life overall is surprising. Don't judge your success on what your bank balance is or could be, and don't whore yourself for extra cash if it means you're only happy on a weekend.
Life is too short not to enjoy it.
How many good years ya got left ?
And you need to keep your technical knowledge up to date.
It is easy to be pigeon holed.
People that can program & think are always going to have a job.
But, You must be able to live on what you make.
And risk deserves future money/stock (in writing).
I am 8 months into a sabbatical and buying a new BMW (1200GS/Adventure)motorcycle.
Going to travel the US this year.
Rode 12,000 miles last year on a borrowed bike (Harley).
It was so much fun, the harley owner is going with for 2 months (Alaska).
My resume is up to date and so is my experience.
But, After 25 years I needed a break.
The last few years of psycho customers,politics, & marketing folks.
On top of mergers & bankruptcy.
I wasn't tied to my salary ( I live way below my means).
I saved for the rainy day, & it's raining somewhere today !
See your smiling face in the mirror.
A highschool wiz can do macros cheaper.
Move while its your choice
This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
I resigned from a highly paid job in a place I hated (Citigroup..) and started working for a charity. I removed one zero from my income. I'm a LOT happier now, code instead of filling in forms, no PHBs, teach, mess with small networks etc.
HOWEVER, I'm end of career, no young children, not much of a mortgage etc. so my personal circumstances (plus the fact that I'm not very 'life in the fast lane' anyway) permitted me to do this.
To me, that's an important part of it, in a different part of my life, I might have made a compromise and continued suffering for a while. So I think, creating the personal freedom to do this is an important part also.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
...which is why I work as a games programmer, and earn less than all my classmates. And earn less than most sysadmins I know, even those who are fairly unqualified and inexperienced. But I have an interesting job, and I don't dread going into work the way most of the people outside of the industry I know, so the value is all relative.
Game dev and music blog
I know it's not quite the same, but I've just turned down an industrial job to stay in academia. The pay difference is about a third. Yeah, it smarts a bit to turn down the money. But I do get to work on the bleeding edge of science instead, doing stuff that nobody has ever done before. That makes up for it.
Life's short - do something fun with it while you have the chance.
Been there, done that. I'm a better person now.
Unless you are already rich, the answer is always 'no'.
Many (most?) people holding an academic position in science or engineering, especially computer science, have made precisely this choice. A typical CS professor could have doubled his salary if he went for an industry career, not to mention the negative income during academic studies and the ridiculous wage during postdoc.
I have a data entry job, which pays $35(Australian) per hour
I am also a bicycle courier, and get paid $16.40p/h
Guess which job I like doing more?
I took a paycut about five years ago to get into IT. It has panned out for me. I'm now working for a great company hacking .Net applications. Although to be honest my interests and ideal job would be to be hacking Linux software I'm unable to find a job that offers that at present. If you (as I) feel that open source software is the future it might be a worth while step to take the cut to move areas.
To me it sounds like you like the benefits of your current job so an alternative could be to get involved in some open source projects and get some hacking done in your own time.
Oh, uh, good question. Now technically speaking, uhh, let's say, put me down as a... 'Whatever'?
Was in exactly same scenario about 4 months ago. Had previously changed jobs based on pay rises, but was still bored and unmotivated. Then, last November, I took a 20% pay cut to go and work at what I really wanted to do. I actually look forward to going into work most days, am passionate at what I do. It's not just my working life that has improved, but outside of work I'm happier and less grumpy.
I believe it depends on your expenses contra income. If you can't afford it, you can't, if you can, I think you should.
18 months ago I quit my job making software for Autonomous Underwater Vehicles (AUVs). Pretty interesting product IMHO, but my professional satisfaction was close to zero.
Inferior architecture, poor development processes, etc. IMNSHO...
So after about 8 years in that business I gave up. I took a cutback and changed job to something with a higher degree of professionalism. After 18 months I still do not regret that decision!
I must admit that I sometimes miss the missions (high coolness-factor++), but I will not switch back and loose the professionalism I feel today.
~Knaldgas
I'm pretty sure you can't change how your current company does it's work (ie introducing OpenOffice is not a viable option) so to use your CS degree while staying in your current job gives you option 1: Stay, but take up an OS project off-hours to hone your skills. Option 2 is pretty evident: take the lower paying job and be mentally satisfied.
However, the third option is to openly communicate with your manager. Explain where you're at, why you're intrigued by the offer, and see if there's something within your current position or company that will allow you to do more. Open, honest communication with a reasonable manager is the best route. Maybe upper management is thinking of developing some of their own applications but don't feel that they have access to the talent to create these apps. There's a hundred ways it could go well, but you'll never know if you don't ask. Your company seems to care for you, and I would bet that they would be sad to see you leave.
Like someone else said, though, what are your life goals? Find someone who does what you think you'd love to do and find out everything you can about that job. What it takes, how to get there, stuff like that. If you find you actually like it, start doing things now to build for it. If not taking the new job, get more education, volunteer for different projects, etc. Life is bigger than your job -- if your goal is to make a difference in the OS community, maybe keeping this job, but working only 35 hours a week would be just as helpful if not moreso.
Also, don't neglect any financial situations that might be coming up. If you are serious with your girlfriend, you may be planning on quite a hefty investment in a shiny, glittering, rock. Maybe you want to trade in your college-mobile and get something with a little more respectability? If you do switch to the low-paying job and start finding yourself in a financial crunch, you will probably start hating your job as many do in financial strain.
Ok, I'm off my soapbox, and good luck!
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
If I got payed enough for it to be more than enough I would.
Unfortunatly I get payed 150 a month for my part-time job.
There is very little chance that anyone pays me anything, and it's less than that.
Most likely pays me nothing for more interesting work.
Like I said. Depends on the paycut.
Still enough? Then go for it!
Knowing if someone else would take a price cut for a more interesting job will not help you in any way. It doesn't say anything about the current job or the potential "more interesting" new job.
If you want to know if someone is ready to do it i can awnser shortly: yes.
If you want to know if you should quit your job and take this new opportunity, that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself.
I think he must stay at his actual job. Why?, financial stability. Look, if he is doing okey and the payment is right, what else does he wants?.
He says that he only works on Office things and that his potential is being wasted?, well, maybe he could get half day of his saturday to do something interesting for him, or even just enter as a consultant to the other company, speding a minimum time.
The problem will be when he moves to the other "startup company" and it does not work... then he will be without job and money. My father has always said "do not rise the left foot until the right is firmly at the next step".
What I would do is just stay with my current job and get some time to do something interesting (note: this is what can really improve your resumé).
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Keep the job, and use the money and flexibility to take flying lessons. You will find that a whole lot more enjoyable and satisfying than shifting to a low-paid programming job.
blah
Life is far too short to be unhappy in your work. The stress from working long hours at an unpleasant and demanding job that you do not like is just not worth it. I definately would take a pay cut to have a more interesting job. The quality of life would be so much higher, and you can't put a price on happiness. I'm currently writing this from Japan (originally from Northern Ireland), where I am here teaching English to Japanese High School kids. The pay is quite good, but I would still do this job if they just paid for my food, rent, bills and other "necessities". It's a very rewarding job and I completely love it. Unfortunately, the job is for a maximum of 3 years and then I have to move on to real life again! Maybe I'll be more bitter and twisted in a few years. Ask me again then.
PHP121 Instant Messenger - Web Based Instant Messenger
I was a freelancer for 6 years and while still studying at uni I earned an impressive amount of money each month. The job was boring though. Your old dynamic website stuff(j2ee,php,perl) and some network admining. So when I got the offer to do a PhD at uni and work as a researcher it took me exactly 4 seconds till I accepted the offer even if it meant earning almost 1000E less each month. I'm happy since :)
It's also a matter of doing something that I can see the result directly benefitting society. (Like more efficient engines)
If you have to export a Notes db to Excel, then find ways to make that an interesting task. Just because the word "Microsoft" is involved doesn't mean it has to be boring. If you have to write a web app for your intranet, then find a way to do it using technology you think is more interesting. Propose new projects for your "spare" time to your boss. Or better still, in your spare time, find a problem, and solve it, and then show the results to your boss.
Just because your job is boring today, doesn't mean it has to be boring tomorrow... and no job is going to be 100% Fun, 100% of the time. The TPS reports, or their equivalent, will have to be filed no matter *what* job you're working: I still have to send project plan updates, fill in timesheets, and do other administrative B.S. that I absolutely loathe, and you probably will have to, as well. The key is, finding other ways to compensate for that by identifying unsolved problems, and then finding creative ways to make them less painful.
Bottom Line: If your job is otherwise perfect, then find a way to make the work more interesting. If your boss actively tries to thwart your attempts, then you've got a problem, and then you might want to consider a new gig.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you. By the sounds of it, his living costs are low, and he is well qualified, so financial stability probably isn't a major issue for him. Doing something you enjoy after hours is alright, but if you don't enjoy your job, it takes much more effort to complete. I know from experience that when you're doing a job you love, it doesn't seem like work at all. The problem will be when he moves to the other "startup company" and it does not work... then he will be without job and money. My father has always said "do not rise the left foot until the right is firmly at the next step". Sometimes that is wise. But sometimes it is necessary to take a risk in search of a greater reward.
Get a job you like, and never work a day in your life!
Some say he is made with ascii, others that he is eyeballed daily by millions. All we know is, he is known as the Sig
The problem I see here is the same problem many people in today's IT world has. Its that they value being comfortable and being stable today much much more than they do having stability, and a better paying job tommorow.
The smarter you are, the more expierience you have the more you are worth in the long run. If you do decide to stay at your current company the only valid reasons I could see would be because you like the company and think they will do better in the future OR your too old to move because of retirement issues.
Staying for reasons entirely of pay is one of the most short sighted things you could ever do unless of course your still making poverty level pay, which I don't think you are. From an employers point of view I'd say having an employee who comes to work for pay first is much less desireable than having an employee who comes to work because he loves his job.
I would first talk to your boss and tell him you are not happy doing what you do. Maybe he can change your situation, so you will keep your $$ but get more interesting work. If that is no posibility than you can switch jobs.
I personally think it is more important to have fun outside working hours than during, but if both is possible than YEAH!
-Mark
...in two months I will be leaving my job as Senior Analyst Programmer and joining Her Majestys Constabulary. For pay, this will be a massive drop to what ive enjoyed for many years.
Yes
I spent 8 years after college working as one of those highly paid IT contractors. My basic role has always been Web development, and the kinds of jobs I worked were dissatisfying for a number of reasons. First off, as anyone who has worked in government IT consulting knows, contractors are lower than the sweat in the armpit of the janitor in the eyes of 90% of government employees (especially political appointees). They don't trust you, everyone has an agenda separate from the organizational mission, and they resent the fact you make as much of 2 or 3 of them. Secondly, this type of position does not really lend itself to advancement. The majority of IT contractors just do what they are good at and never try to work themselves into an organizational role within the companies they work for. Thus, companies themselves sort of treat IT as its own animal, and there is typically no heirarchy above manager for contractors.
Regardless, the lack of opportunity and the general working conditions really did not appeal to me. In January of last year, after a post-Christmas layoff, I started my own company and look at the world in an entirely different way. The salary has not always been there (nor has the revenue, it is not easy to start a business), but I am making more than enough to make ends meet and have not missed any meals.
The most rewarding part of this is that I have a genuine interest in the work we do. I am not building some crap accounting application for unappreciative people with no vested interest in the project anymore. I get to talk to decision makers, write proposals that are realistic, intelligent and actually serve a purpose in the real world, and generally have a lot more control over things that limited me in the IT consulting world.
M
I stopped contracting and started working for a company full time that was doing interesting work. My pay got cut to a third of what it had been but I've never been happier. Also, now that I've proved my worth to the company I've had three payrises in the last two years accumulating to almost a 20% rise in that time.
DO IT! Go have fun because wasting your life doing something you are sick of will only allow you to accomplish dying with more money than you would have.
Sign up for The Landmark Forum. If you get value out of that (almost certain, in my experience) sign up for their 'Advanced Course'. The courses are designed to help you let go of what you're stuck in and think around the corner a bit. You'll get other stuff out of the courses than just figuring out what job would really work for you and I seriously doubt you'll regret it. The two courses would set you back a total of about $1200
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Even though I make less, I am MUCH, MUCH happier as a result. I can see a real difference in the work I produce. It is actually used by our customers. I have personal contact with the customers on the two projects I am working on. I am actually given responsibility (I run some ideas past my boss, but for the most part, I am allowed to decide how to design or implement stuff). I can actually see myself getting more practical experience for managing projects, timelines, etc. But best of all, I don't dread going to work anymore. I don't have to worry about what I am going to do all day, because I am definitely not bored anymore.
Do today what you want to be doing later on. Your skills grow in the position you're at, so if you want to be doing advanced system and network programming, get a job doing that. Make sure you can pay your bills, but salary's less important than what you're doing. I've taken paycuts for better work, and I'm glad I did it.
Ideology breeds Hypocrisy. Just how much is up to you.
Unless you are close to retirement (like within 5 years), you need to make sure that your skills remain marketable. It seems to me that there are a lot of VB programmers, especially more in India and China. Your job is more likely to be outsourced, if there are many other people capable of doing it for less. What are you doing that is worth so much money?
Where do you want to be in 10 years from now? Still doing VB? Unless you learn new stuff you'll wind up like all those programmers who only knew COBOL and MVS when Java came along.
Being too comfortable is a warning sign - you are not growing.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
I see that you are getting yourself into business programming and believe me (this is 15 years of experience talking ;-) ) tech experience is not everything. Especially in corporate IT, business experience seems to matter much more than technologies that tend to come and go. Ask anybody who specialised in finance, manufacturing, scm... anything.
Of course if you want to be programmer in business consultancy, this is probably waste of your time.
just my 2c
jcp
I have a totally bleak outlook on work--to me, it's just an exchange of time/effort for money/benefits. But the strange thing is, I do the work. I work longer hours, more willingly, than some of those around me who claim to take "pride" in what they do, because I figure if I'm going to be a whore, at least I'll be a good whore and earn the man's money.
The only hard part is faking the orgasm, because the boss-people don't want to hear that you work there for money and benefits. So I occasionally have to act as if it was great, the best I've ever had, wow may I have another, just to appease the "love what you do!" Nazis. God how I hate them.
For example, what's important to me is having free time, a great apartment and interesting places to walk and have dinner. I don't care if someone offers me double what I make now, if it costs me time or the city I enjoy living in, it's not worth it.
well i work in a call centre......tech support...ISP.
I'd almost half my pay to start learning something....oh the pain.
happy Tuesday everybody!
DJB
DJBeSSeR
I don't know why I'm responding, this thread is already bogged down. But here's my $0.02 anyway.
You are making money by applying a subset of your skills to the business world. That's how the system works.
Take some initiative and build something in your spare time that is a challenge and the business could use. Such as a system that handles the mundane parts of your job automatically. Maybe they won't need you anymore, but more likely they'll see your potential and ask for more.
Personally I'd say it depends on a few factors:
1) Job security at the new company vs. your current job
2) How much of a paycut you're talking about
3) How much room to move up would you have in the new company
But if the answers for those line up in your favor (not necessarily at first, but down the road) then go for it. The day stands a good chance of coming when almost all of those VBA macros you write now will probably come stock with office. Then where would you be?
As far as the fun at work or fun outside work goes, I'd say that while fun at work may be the best job, as it beats filling out TPS reports all day, although on the flip side, filling out tps reports for a large company may in fact have more job security (unless your name happens to be Samir Naga...nagonnaworkhereanymore or Mike Bolton) against that of a startup company.
And you'd really want to try for the middle: a job that's fun (or where you atleast avoid most of the "same sh!t, different day" routines that seem to be oh so popular in the corporate world), but provides a steady paycheck.
Of course, you could train a monkey to do your current job for you and get the best of both worlds too...VBA isnt THAT hard.
Start putting money into investments that can support you wholly or partially without having to wait for retirement.
Suppose you reach a level where your investments are paying an amount equal to 25% of your current salary. You could then get a more exciting job that pays a bit less and still maintain the same level of earnings.
If you actually reached the level where your investment earnings were supplying all of your needs you could basically do whatever you want, in theory.
I also find that I do better at a job that I have a passion for, rather than one that I find boring and unchallenging so you might look for something like that. It could turn out to be more lucrative in the long run to take a job that pays a bit less and run with it, turning it into something that pays much more.
Coding Blog
yes. i took a $20k pay cut to get out from under a horrible corporate cultrue in a stupid, and ridiculously stressful environment. went to a private company and am A LOT happier now.
I think you have two questions to ask yourself: "Can I live on the reduced pay comfortably (pay the rent, save some pennies for a rainy day)?" and, "What is more important to me, job content or job context?"
As a fifty-year-old (ouch, that hurt to type), I would say that now is the time of your life you are a) learning your trade technically (coding techniques, problem pattern recognition and how to avoid/resolve it) and b) don't have to worry about feeding a family. Go and have fun - and, once you have some good, solid experience under your belt at this job, think about where you want to be in this industry and look for a leading innovator to work for.
Just my two cents -
unless money = fun outside of work to you.. in which case good luck, chumpster
1) Follow your dream if you can. If you're capable of doing something that you love, and life lets you do it, then ROCK ON.
2) Thanks for defending our country, eagl.
3) It is not egotistical to super-enjoy your work, provided that you're the best person you can be.
4) One's quality of self-satisfaction and life far outweighs stuff, not matter how much one loves one's stuff.
5) At the end of the day, one's work tends to consume a third or more of one's life. Make the most of it, if possible.
A Passionate Independent Musician
I, too, work senselessly on Access queries and waste countless hours formatting spreadsheets for that silly accounting department.
My days of spreadsheet jockeying are at an end. I'm so sick of this work that I'm going freelance. I'll be taking a pay cut for a while, until I build up enough business. I'm also giving up the security of a regular paycheck, which is a bit stressful. However, if I really stop to think about it, there's no security in the corporate world. I could be downsized at any time--all in the name of workplace efficiency.
You see, to me it's worth it, regardless of any reduction in pay. If what you're doing from day to day is wearing you down, leave. It's much better to be happy than to "work at jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need," (Durden, Tyler, The Bible).
Go with what will make you happy. If it doesn't work out financially because the company folds or just doesn't grow at an acceptable rate, get a new job or start your own company. Remember, "there's no fate but what we make for ourselves," (Connor, John, T2).
Yeah, I love movie quotes. Even if I get them wrong.
BDR Gear
Outdoor gear, MREs, and more!
There is really one question:
Did you major in cs to create, learn, and generally bring ghost in the shell to today, or did you do it for money?
The answer to that question should decide for you. think about your next job too, what you want your resume to look like when you're 50 (peak earning years + college for kids) and more importantly your salary.
ps. i'm all for ghost in the shell
I had a good job working as an Linux Admin for a City Gov't that was about 30 miles (45-50 minute commute) away. But I was bored because my input didn't seem worthy to my boss. I left in September to come back to the city I currently live in. I work 4 miles from home. I took a $7K pay cut. Is it worth it? I'm now working with Windows, ColdFusion, and inept management that is still stuck in the 90's. Can't beat the drive though. I've finally realized that my perfect job will be me working for myself. So my goal is to be on my own by the end of the year.
See Subject.
If your work is really that easy for you, why not use your spare time outside of work to start your own business and focus on things that really interest you? This way you can be intellectually challenged and make more money than you currently do (hopefully;) ) instead of less, yet still maintain your current stability and perks.
If you aren't business savy, you could alternatively spend your spare time working on some interesting open source projects.
Scott
nothing
I thought after 12 years as a consultant that joining the Big company, Big Perks crowd would let me go one place everyday for the rest of my career and that would make me happy. (This was 2 years ago...) I lasted 4 months and have been back to consulting ever since. The variety in my client base is what made me valuable to them. I was bored and I agree that job satisfaction was worth the $50K risk I took. I've since made it up and found that spending more time with my family and having meaningful work that I found challenging and rewarding was worth more than any Salary could overcome.
I am a Shrubber
Even aside from the money, the quality of life factors made the new job preferable.
It sounds like you want to do it. And you've got nothing to lose but things
:-( ). But that's the worst it can get.
you say sound like what you should want. If you've got friends you'll make
more where you go next. And you can always go visit.
The startup might suck, it might blow away in 6 months, the owner could
be a psychopath (last 3 jobs...
The best part is it will all be new... new work, new relationships, new
everything. In 10 years it won't matter so much one way or the other, so
do what you want now.
You only live once.
My typical day started when I got out of bed between 04:30 and 05:00. I was on the road no later than 06:00, and travelled ~250 miles in a typical day. I was lucky to be back home by 19:00, and even then, I'd spend the next several hours doing bookwork, replying to emails, managing people and putting out the days remaining fires.
I loved it. The challenges, the excitement; hell, it was *fun*. My wife didn't mind the money and benefits, but with a 1.5 year old who wondered who I was, she was starting to question the point of it all.
I took on the last client in February or March of 04, winding down the existing contracts and projects over the duration of that last three-month engagement. I knew going in that this client would want me to convert to being a captured employee at the end of the assignment, and that's exactly what I was looking for.
There are still days that I miss being self-enjoyed, believe me. But, I've grown used to a slower pace of life. I work 2.5 miles from my house (not always a good thing), and my longest commute has been 15 minutes. I get to spend time with my family, which is probably the most important benefit there is.
One of my buddies (who also has a conslutting biz, and stays in the game) once quipped, 'You can work to live, or you can live to work. There's nothing wrong with either choice, but once you make it, do it with all your heart.'
I choose to 'work to live.' I do just enough to keep from getting fired, they pay me just enough to keep from quitting. With extremely little debt (a mortgage), we don't require much income...our lifestyle is supported *by* my work, instead of the other way around, and our family is much better for it.
Take a pay cut for work that is 'more fun?' For me, doing 'more fun work' would result in a pay raise...and a lot more stress. I'll stick to being a big fish in a small pond, going home at 16:30 and living life. YMMV.
--
Sig Nificant
There's nothing perfect about being bored at work, go with the exciting job if that's how you really feel about it.
"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"
can you leave the current job in a good situation? if so, go for it and if you aren't happy, go back to your current job. i've done it before and really it's not a difficult thing to set up if you are doing well in your current job.
With the oil prices going through the roof the question should be:
- Would you take even less money home for a more interesting job?
My question is: Does this interest thing comes in a bikini and thong?
I am portuguese. If you think my written english is bad, try posting in portuguese!
I quit a well-paying programming job in the US last year in order to teach English to children in China. I'm writing from my nice house in Shaanxi Province, where I have lots of free time to learn more Chinese and work on my own CS projects and other hobbies. My salary is only US$600/month, but that's 6x the average salary in this city - I eat out at restaurants every day and just got back from a trip to tropical Hainan island, which only cost about US$400. Money is relative, do what you enjoy and don't let the fruits of your labor and time go to waste.
Adventures in Shaanxi
I, personally would take the paycut (of course, depending on how big of a cut it was). Why settle for being happy only half the time? If you have a job that you enjoy and that is challenging, then you will be happier even when you aren't at work.
Of course, if the pay cut is too substantial for it to make sense, you can always pass that opportunity up, but continue to look for other opportunities where you would be able to use your education more fully. The thing is, the longer you wait to get a job doing what you went to school to do, the harder it will be for you to get a job doing that.
I'd take fun outside of work hands-down. I don't want a job that replaces my social life. Still, I'd certainly take a pay cut to do a job that I thought offered me better self-development. In my case, that means management, rather than technology. I'd see it as an investment for my future career. But I would never leave a well-paying job with good career development for one that paid less and offered less career development but seemed fun ... unless I was financially set, and considered it to be semi-retirement.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
I speak from experience: I walked away from a nice, stable job back in 2000 to join a friend at a startup. My old job was building databases for my state's public health department. It was slightly dull, paid fairly well, and had benefits out the wazoo. When we took on an incompetent manager and I quit in frustration, moved across the country and started working 70-hour weeks building waycool wireless application frameworks. Five months later they laid off half their developers and I was just another unemployed dotbomber. My friend lasted another year before the VCs ransacked the company and seized all its IP.
Back at my old job, the manager that made me want to quit had been "relieved of all responsibility," which is government speak for "we can't fire you, but we can make you tidy your desk for eight hours a day until you resign." And since she'd squandered her entire budget on hardware they didn't need, there was no money to hire me back. Yes, I asked.
The moral of the story, for me anyway, is that there are worse things than being slightly bored with a good-paying job. It could be different for you: You could have a lust for adventure and risk that you just gotta get out of your system. But you should realize that you're not just walking a way from a dull job: You might be walking away from a career company. In a few years, with a wife, kids and an oppressive mortgage in tow, you might feel differently about waking up and knowing you're going to draw a fat paycheck and that your employer, not you, is going to pay for little Billy's braces.
If you're bored, maybe what you need is a hobby. I recommend motorcycling. I got to work this morning glad to be alive, because three commuters tried to kill me on my way in.
This is not my sandwich.
I'd look carefully before you leap. And I mean VERY carefully. First of all, there's no way of knowing exactly what a new job holds in store. What may sound great on the surface, might be your worst nightmare come true. Unless you personally know someone who's willing to give you an honest assessment of what goes on in the day-to-day operations of the new company, there's always risk, especially in App Dev. This risk isn't that big of deal when you're already in a very bad situation (however, I've actually jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire before). But if you're already in a comfortable position, be careful choosing a new job. I'm actually in a similar situation myself (my job is becoming a tedious bore), but I turned down an recent opportunity because after asking a lot of questions about the work environment, I decided to stay put. When it comes to App Dev, you could very easily walk into a sweatshop (regular 60+ hour workweeks), ridiculous deadlines, clueless managers, and over-promising salesmen. In fact, you could almost say this sort of stuff "goes with the territory." There's things that are FAR worse than a tech job that's boring. You, being a recent grad, have probably been shielded from these things. Your tech life, though boring and non-challenging, so far sounds like a bed of roses. I'm not saying don't leave, but choose CAREFULLY. Ask lots of questions about the new job and their expectations. The ball's in your court...don't blow it. Also, look for more coding opportunities in your current job. Volunteer to help out on teams, etc.
The big question: Can you maintain your same style of living with the paycut, not having to give anything major up? If it just means not having a little bit more spending money, I'd say it was worth it. Not only would it be more interesting, but it sounds like it be more useful in securing a possibly better job later on. The money (depending on how much the cut is) will come back with time, but the old job will be mundane forever. If you find the work interesting, you are more likely to work harder and produce more results, which may in turn lead to promotions, more raises, etc.
If you can handle the paycut, I'd say go for it. What good is a little extra money when you get to the point where you hate going to work every day. I've been there, its not fun.
And they said zombies weren't real!
i think shifting towards other areas of interest is essential for people like myself, just because it'll keep me sane.. sitting in an office, hurts my tailbone, keeps me inactive physically, and makes me bored out of my mind.. Not to mention, it hurts my passion for computers so that when I get home, I don't even want to look at my computer..
its important to get out of serious debt so that you can have the freedom to choose basically any kind of job that you want, and have fun with it.. as long as I can get health benefits, I'll take a paycut.. grocery stores give people health benefits.. i wouldn't mind being a baker ;-) then i could finally bare making computers my hobby again..
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
I would say no to the paycut for more interesting work. But, then again, there are personal preferences. I figure that eventually the younger pups will push me out of the market, so the better bet is to gravitate towards management, where I will be more effective after my ability to keep current with the minutea of tech is overshadowed by the pups. It happens.
A book on management, I can't remember the title, has a couple of rules about job changing. First, always go for the job that pays more. Second, avoid jobs that are strictly staff--always try to interface with the client. That's because working with the client helps the company earn, which helps the bottom line and increases your visibility to the higher-ups. The caveat to rule two is if it pays more money and is take the staff job, but get out of it in 12-18 months.
I would also avoid job-hopping, stay within one company as long as you can while getting a varied experience.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
You seem young & bright. It seems like a good company. Financial services & consultants should be around for some time. Jobs like yours are very rare, I would not throw it away unless you are supremely confident in your ability to get another like it (I do not know what the environment is like in the Phillipines, maybe such jobs are common there because of outsourcing. In North America, they are rare.)
If you are not feeling challenged, then you probably have time to do experiments. Try some of those Excel/Access linkage projects and doing them in OOO & mysql as a demo. Or have the Excel files dropped onto an intranet, and then read-in using OOO to feed mysql and see if you can get interesting features from that.
Try finding ways to apply open source to what the clients need. It sounds like your work environment would be open to those sorts of experiments. See if you can have 20% time projects (like Google) or some such. I'd make the job interesting, since everything else about it is good.
If you are skilled, they will be flexible enough to accomodate you, and you will build relationships and skills at the same time.
To answer your question from personal experience...
I took a pay-cut from a role I had been in for 4 years. The company was doing the same stuff as before and I went to join a new innovative company that was about 1.5 yrs into startup.
The paycut was around 10%. For me, the fortunate situation was that I didn't have to compromise my spending habits too much - so I still have the same quality of life I did before. I'm maybe putting a little less into my savings. I also got an options package, that wasn't overly great, but has already given me some extra cash and when I finally cash them all out I'll have basically made up the shortfall.
So, my advice in a nutt-shell
If you have to really compromise your life style because of the pay-cut - think twice. If you are bored, leave your existing job and find another that pays in a similar bracket - even if it's the same role. Sometimes just a change of scenery is a breath of fresh air. If you don't have to compromise your life-style - totally take it.
'...a waste of my CS education...'
The purpose of your education is to help you succeed in life,
don't get short sighted and think you'll be working in computer science till your 72.
Save up as much of that well paying job money as you can, 60% or more...
When the programming cash cow runs dry, you'll be looking for something better...
With your savings you could buy rental properties, start your own business, travel to a far away place, go to grad school, start your own school, give it all to the poor, or buy your own island...
The point being: Financial freedom and success in your life cycle (spouse, offspring, good place to live) are things to keep in mind.
Your first million dollars is the hardest money you'll ever have to work for...
Being able to use or even fully use One's education in One's Job is a great thing but the vast majority of people end up doing something entirely different or at least relatively unrelated to what they studied in school.
School is part training but a good part of it just to prove that you can show up on time for something everyday.
You may find more satisfaction and far more opportinities if you explore jobs options that don't directly relate to your studies. Not always. But if you approach jobs that ONLY involve using a CS major's skills, then that rules out a whole ton of other rewarding and challenging things that might be perfectly good other than not directly using a CS degree.
There are a ton of ways to exploit your talents without trashing the job that provides what appear to be good working conditions and benefits. You say coding is in your blood. So, do that in your spare time. Start a for-hire coding business on the weekends. Consult on the side and/or write apps for small businesses that could not afford full-blown programmers. Write apps and sell them on the 'net. You might stumble across something that makes a major pile of money, assuming that's what you want. Or you might make just a small amount of cash but hey, writing code is really what you wanted.
Meanwhile I wouldn't dismiss a nice stable job that appears to have few if any downsides and I wouldn't worry a bit about using my degree.
Sig for hire.
...No
t ml
In a blog entry: http://tom.digitalelite.com/2005_08_11_08_02_00.h
You want life fullfillment, do it after work. Don't buy into that "enriching career" crap. The employment contract is a simple one: You are trading time for money. The more you can get that ratio to favor you, the better.
If you want to have an life that is more enriching, fullfilling, rewarding, interesting, or actualizing, volunteer somewhere after work with a group that really needs you, like a homeless shelter, a food bank, or hell even an open source software project. Don't spend yourself on Corporate America. I promise you that it will never pay you back!
Never.
Do your job, do it well, but just do it and go home to your family and friends where life really matters.
And to answer to obvious next question, yes, my clients love my work. I'm not preaching laziness or sabotage, just perspective. You can write the best code on the planet, with the least bugs, that runs the fastest, the the users adore and cheer, and in the end what happens? A couple of corporate fatcats are a little richer this year than they were last year. w00t? No.
-Tom
I left IT support, where I'd worked for more than ten years and was making very good money, to become a lexicographer. It was a two-thirds paycut. While I had to re-learn how to live like a graduate student, I haven't missed the money. Of course, my only serious financial obligations are student loans. No mortgage, no car, no car payments, no wife, no children. So no doubt it's been easier for me than it would be for others.
Wordnik, a dictionary project which aims to collect
If you got cut by 2000$ or 10000$ can make a big difference in your choice. But, I think, if you hate your job, it can bring you to depression if you continue to work here. You must make a choice between $money$ and career.
If you do not have kids to take care of of a grandma with an expensive medical condition - in other words if you can afford the cut, go for it.
You spend 8+ hours (half of your life, not including sleeping times) at your work. If it is boring, and you hate it, you will start to hate your life.
I left several workplaces just before getting a raise, for others that paid more or less the same, but promised more travel, new people, new challenges, new devices and software to fiddle with......
But then again, I am the person who is thinking about doing volunteer ( =free) work on a remote island as a park ranger for 3-6 months just for the sake of being there, climb hills, clean trails and dive..... but have no kids or anyone to take care of, and my wife would volunteer as well (she is a teacher/biologist)
obviously it is not a permanent job change, but obviously it is not for the money, as it involves a 100% salary cut.... but right now I am kinda sick of sitting in my home office and staring at the 4 monitors and hitting buttons for $$$
just my 2c. your mileage might vary
If your experience is anything like mine were - you'll have a blast - and end up earning way more than you expected.
Oh yeah, and:
If it doesn't work out, take back that "in training for retirement" job or one like it - they will always be there.
Startups employ lots of young eager smart people - many of whom are female. (See bonding statement above)
Get your tagline off my lawn.
My job is actually quite similar to the OP. I also have a CS degree (and am working on my Masters). I do a lot of "busy work" in Excel, and Access, and some VBA to automate these processes. My manager hired me because she was sick of doing busy work tasks. So I came in and automated it within a week, and they had a new hire with nothing to work on. I made myself available for coding tasks (albeit still not in C/C++ or Java -- yet!) and I have been more or less coding special requests from managers ever since. Yes, this is in VBA, but it's a step in the right direction. If your workplace has software engineering positions that you are interested in, make their department notice you (or at least their managers) and apply for the job internally. That way you can keep the coworkers and the good pay without risking an entirely new situation (which, I've noticed, usually lacks one or both of those attributes).
Good luck!
OK - so you have a great job in every aspect except for the work not really challenging you; and the chance to go and do something much more interesting for a startup for less money. I can understand you not wanting to do either irrevocably! However, if your current employer is that good, could you explain the situation to them, point out that you don't feel challenged, and see whether they would mind you taking 6 or 12 months out from them, without pay, to go and scratch your itch? If it doesn't work out, you're covered (and believe me, good people are probably more important than challenging work in a job); either way, you won't be looking back in ten years saying "if only I'd done that..."
Some people prefer more money and some people prefer something more fun...keeping in mind of course that you still have to be able to afford to live. Personally I look at it this way...if you don't work overtime all the time then your job is the 2nd place you spend the most time at...personally i prefer enjoying what i'm doing (especially spending 40+ hours a week doing it) otherwise i don't feel its worth it...life is short and if your lucky enough to enjoy what you do your ahead of a lot of other people Having said that it really depends whats more important to you but the fact that your even asking this question tells me that money doesnt drive you and thats great...I think you might have already made your decision...its just that your being smart about it and why shouldn't you be...going from a job where your comfortable to any other job there is some risk involved. think of the pros and cons of working at each job and then list in order of whats more important to you to least important and make a decision from it...
Unfortunately, I had already taken a pay cut (~11%) to work closer to home (traded a one hour commute for a ten minute one, applied the saved time directly to my family). It would have been another 10% drop in pay, and I didn't think the work was that interesting!
Just junk food for thought...
I just made the move from my high-paying consulting gig to a high-energy startup in lower manhattan last year. I may have taken a pretty significant pay decrease, but to me it was worth it... I jump out of bed in the morning totally psyched to get in and write some more badass code. My previous situation sounds worse than yours, though, and this is the "thing to consider" from the subject... my startup gives me equity. I think that makes it far easier to consider taking a paycut - the potential for a large payoff some day really boosts your spirits when you're eating cucumber sandwiches for dinner at the end of the month...
Thanks, that just sparked an interesting discussion amongst our development team. 8 people, and here are there titles/education : CTO - Enlgish Lit Lead Dev - Culinary Arts Sr. Dev - Art History Sr. Dev - Agricultural Engineering Jr. Dev - Computer Science Jr. Dev - Computer Science Jr. Dev - Computer Engineering Jr. Dev - Computer Science I don't think this is an unusual trend, but I can't explain it.
There's a balance that can be struck between job satisfaction and income. That balance is the full measure of the quality of your professional life. If you only attend to one side of that balance, you cannot expect a satisfying life, unless you happen to love doing something that is lucrative, like being a doctor, for example.
(%i1) factor(777353);
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Think of your long term career - how many people are likely to want to hire you in your middle age with only 20 yrs MS Office experience? At this early stage of ur career go for a job that involves new interesting technologies and set yourself up for later! I left my home to move to France and work with a VoIP company, instead of staying with my boring job at a bank and I'm so happy I did! I'm earning less and beer costs lots more here, but I'm really enjoying myself and learning soooo much! You have recently graduated, you don't have any debts, and no responsibilities - find a new job! (although the gf might not be too understanding if you want to go abroad!)
Trust me. It isn't worth it.
I had a good job with a good company with good hours and good coworkers. However, after 5 years of doing the same thing with it made very clear that there was no room for advancement, I quit and took a different job that a friend of mine was leaving. The new job paid 80% more than my old job, but I knew that it was miserable.
The job involves maintaining a horrible suite of interconnected billing applications that is completely undocumented. This in and of itself wouldn't be too bad, but there is horrible bureaucratic red tape choking everything you do. You don't have the ability to install better tools to do your work on your laptop or on the test servers. Getting logins needed to do your job can take weeks.
Fixing a bug requires a truly horrific number of impediments. First, you must get access to a test server (of which there are less than half the number of employees in my department), which can require over half a day to set up. Then, once you've identified the bug, you have to write up a design doc to fix it which has to be approved within the department. Then it has to be looked over by development (the very same reckless morons who created all the bugs I've looked at) and rubber stamped by at least three different people. Then, you have to stage the fixed executable as part of a weekly move into production which requires three more levels of approval (for a binary that they can't even scrutinize!) before it can go. Only then after verifying the code can you deliver changes into the production stream in the vile, hated, "everyone's workspace is a branch that has to be merged" tool that is ClearCase. This of course means that if someone else is changing the same program, they can't go into production in the same week. In spite of all of this, we are now expected to close all Critical tickets in 3 business days and all other tickets in 7 because "the business" is high on acid and the contractors who I work through are eager as puppies to please with impossible promises.
The job also requires 24-hour on-call every couple of weeks with weekend on-call every month or so. In addition, our department is storm drain of the city that is my company's billing system -- it all flows down here eventually. Any other system that screws up and feeds us bad data can result in weeks or months of horrible clean up. We are the department responsible for all fact-checking on erroneous bill items and the department responsible for fixing bills even if our software wasn't the source of the problem. In other words, on-call duty is usually a 12-16 hour affair with people constantly pestering you for updates.
To put it simply the job is extremely stressful and consumes large amounts of my free time. I have developed acid reflux as a result of the stress, and my sleep schedule is wrecked again after working so hard to fix it at my last job. My free time is wasted feeling burned out and not doing anything fun, and I don't have time to cook healthy food anymore.
Over half of your waking life (counting commuting and short lunch and dinner breaks) is spent consumed by your job. If you know that a job will not bring you joy, run -- do not walk -- in the other direction as far away as possible. The majority of your waking life should not be spent making yourself sick and unhappy for filthy lucre. Money is not freedom if you make yourself a slave to it. Early retirement shouldn't come at the cost of shortening the time you have remaining in exchange for your best years.
As for me, as soon as a year has passed at this job and my time here will not be too short to look good on a resume, then I'm out of here for a job with less pay and more reward. I took this job to get better paying jobs in the future, but I don't really think it was worth it at this point.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I spent 4 years at uni for my CS degree - what the hell is the use of all that time if I'm not going to use it? Plus, most people have to pay alot of money for their education, so what do you have to show for that then? If you don't really want a career in the thing you study, why should you waste all the time money and effort???
You have a job right now that is boring, but has a lot of perks: great pay, nice hours, the ability to telecommute as you want, etc. You want to find a job with less money, hopefully good benefits, but more exciting work. I can understand if you wanted to leave your current job because you feel it is a rut in your career (and believe me, it could turn out that way if you stay too long). If you have only been there a few years or less, though, think about this:
If you want more exciting work, do you want to give away all of that effort (thoughts and energy) doing that exciting work for an employer in exchange for a little money, or would you rather see a great return on such an investment?
One thing to keep in mind is that in the software business, you may be doing some coding and getting "N" dollars in salary in return, but it is possible that they are turning around and selling that same software for "N x X" - where "X" can be any factor you can think of - to multiple customers. For instance, at one job I was at they needed (for a client) a piece of software which would act as an interface between a scanner and an imaging system. It was to take images, and some data about them (OCR data stored as a CSV file), and dump all of that from that format to the format the imaging system needed. Neither the OCR company nor the imaging company wanted to write it. Since my employer was a VAR for both, they asked me to write it. I wrote a simple app in VB6 which would sit in the tray waiting for jobs, and as it got them, transfer them over. Took me a couple of days to write and debug fully with the test data I had, and to tweak it "just so" to make it easy to install, and to handle licensing issues. I later found out that they sold this software to the client for about $25,000.00! As far as I know, they only sold it that one time, but they could easily sell it over and over again for that same amount! I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the company you are currently working for is doing the same thing with those "boring" VBA scripts and such you create...
Now - if you can get that amount for some fairly retarded (but crucial to some business operations) pieces of code - imagine what you could get for "exciting" code? However, unless you have some sort of financial stake in the next company you work for - you won't get jack (other than your paycheck, of course). So why go that route?
Instead - think of an exciting project, and start doing work on it at home! It doesn't even have to be coding related - or even related to computers! But it does have to be something that is exciting to you. Use your current job as the means to support yourself and family - and if you are willing to take a pay cut - do it now! At your current job, estimate what your "new" job would pay, take the cut, and put that amount from your current job into your "new business fund" savings account. Then, with that squared away, take on your "new job" of building that exciting new product. Once you have it at a certain level of "doneness" - start to think about a business plan and start writing that up. Hopefully, by this time, a year or so of time has passed and your "new business fund" savings have accumulated to a certain amount (maybe $5000.00 or so?). You have code (or whatever exciting product you are making), you have a business plan, you have some savings to launch (or at least as collateral for a small business loan, or something).
Now, all you need to do is find investors in your plan, or find other people interested. Now - you have to do this portion quietly - don't shop it around to your colleagues or clients from work - unless what you wrote (or built) has nothing to do with your current job. If you are doing software, make sure you don't use VBA (for instance) - or that the software does anything similar to what the software you are writing at work doe
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Really, the decision depends on a number of factors. Maybe the current job's extra pay allows you to enjoy yourself more outside of work. If your job is merely tedious, not soul-sucking, you might consider staying and pumping up your style outside of work. Or save up enough for an early retirement. But, given what you said about how braindead your taskings are, if you do stay, make sure you keep up on your education outside of work. You don't want to be 10 years out of school, 15 left for retirement, and trying to peddle your ability to create Excel Macros.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Later in life, you can take the job that pays more but is less interesting, if you have to. Later, when that ( probably working ) girlfriend morphs into a ( possibly not working ) wife with a kid ( or kids ) that you have to support... then, that's the time to decide if you need to look more to the bottom line than to what is fullfilling. But now, when you're young, you should do whatever looks like the most fun for you. As a benefit, you'll be able to point to experience doing more than speadsheet work, and maybe someone will pay you well to do interesting work. I hear it happens occasionally.
...at least for my girlfriend. Just last week she turned down a job paying 35% more - a huge pay raise - because the new company has a stale atmosphere and little potential for growth. It's not uncommon to turn down a raise or job offers for boring work - boring jobs pay more for a reason...because they're boring!
Some people define their life by their job. I have friends like that. They would much rather make less money andwork a lot of hours in order to have interesting work. On the other hand, are people like myself. I see my job as nothing more than a means to an end. While I am fortunate to do something I enjoy (I'm a *nix sysad), I don't particularly care if my work is mentally stimulating. I place a premium on flex time, a 40 hour work week, vacation and being able to leave my work at work. I get my mental stimulation by volunteering as a search and rescue dog handler for the state in which I live. While it's and expensive and time-consuming hobby, it has great rewards. I get to be in the woods with one of my dogs every weekend, I have a highly trained and skilled dog and I'm fascinated by why my dog does what it does and how to train it to have the necessary skills. Plus, I've been able to take my dog training skills and start training my dog's cat (yes, it's my german shepherd's cat). As an added bonus, I get to help people. Additionally, I have time to spend with my friends and family, do work around my house and DJ once a month at local bar. If I made less and/or worked more hours, I wouldn't be able to do a lot of those things.
My point is that there are a myriad of ways to find fulfillment in life that don't revolve around your job. In fact, you're probably better off if you get your fulfillment outside of your job. To most employers, you are nothing but a number, to be laid off when they need to cut head count or you are no longer needed. If you get your fulfillment from something other than work, it is much harder for it to be taken away from you. It sounds like you have a great job aside from it not being interesting. Having been through a number of layoffs due to companies closing offices or going under, I place a high value on job stability. I would suggest staying at your job and saving/investing a good portion of your salary. Since you are young and don't have debt, you're in a great position to let your money work for you. It will pay tremendous benefits down the road: you may be able to retire early and/or you will have the financial freedom to do other things. Staying in your current job because the money and benefits are good is most definitely not selling out. You are simply looking out for your best interests if you stay. Paul Graham's January essay (previously linked to on /.) would be a good read if you haven't already read it. Jobs with benefits/pay like yours are very rare. Don't make the decision lightly.
To Work on Atlantis, I would work for room and board...
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
...and that's Hugh Hefner. Otherwise, there's always something that could be better about our jobs.
But moving back to the topic. I can think of a dozen reasons why I would jump ship. I can think of a dozen reasons to stay put. What it comes down to is "To Thine Ownself Be True." If deep in your heart your desire is to stimulate the gray matter, write code, and put that college education to use, jump ship. If deep in your heart you want to bank the cash and stimulate the gray matter when you go home for the night, stick tight. If you want to stimulate other things, see when old Hugh is going to cash in and then apply for his job.
Starting next week, all passwords will be entered in Morse code
I don't hate my job, nor am I unhappy there. It's a job. I don't love my car, but to follow your logic I must hate it, and be miserable driving it. I don't, and I'm not. It's transportation, an efficient method for getting from A to B. My car works for the task I ask from it, as does my job. That is an important point, and bears thinking about. My job gets me the money and benefits I want, and asks from me things I am willing to do. What I do is largely boring and unfulfilling, but I don't hate it. Doing what I do allowed me to live in Tokyo for 5 years, and it's shortly taking me to Korea, and then to Italy for 3+ years. But if you want the cool stuff then you have to do what the man wants. The snowflakes bitch more than I do, because they want the cool benefits but they also expect to find the work a spiritual odyssey or some such crap. I'd clean toilets for the pay and benefits I'm getting. The job is only a way of bringing money and benefits my way. It is a means to an end.
My nickname is a bit of hyperbole. But I find it vindicated more often than not. And my co-workers like having me around, because I have more of a sense of humor than the stick-up-the-ass snowflake nazis.
I took a roughly 50% pay cut last summer to move from a long-term contract job in the city writing portal apps to a full-time w-2 gig in the suburbs with a tech start-up. That was the most satisfying move I have made in my career. Unfortunately, the company ran out of money 5 months later and I am back at the contract gig, but I would do it again.
"If you feel your CS degree is wasted, work on open source projects or try to bring open source into your organization."
Why do most people on here take it for granted that anyone with programming skills wants to do open source projects? Why can't you suggest he work on whatever he wants and maybe even sell it for a few bucks? Is that so wrong? Again, why should he be tasked to bring OS into his organization? Perhaps they are already there or it isn't the answer for what they need. I'm not bashing OS here, I run Linux on my toaster and serve Apache pages from my fridge. That doesn't mean I want to do a bunch of work and distribute it to the world for free.
I have actually put a few snippets of code out in the public domain and don't have a problem with doing it. Nonetheless, why do so many here feel like that will make the OP and others feel more satisfied with their lives?
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
Just over two years ago I quit my job as the networking guy in the core systems team at a higher education college to work part time as a salesman for a small company that took photos from small remote control airships and to train as a teacher of the Alexander Technique. I'm still on the course, but the company folded within six months, and after a few months of unemployment and temping I now live in a different city. Though the whole process was chaotic both personally and financially, I'm now still poorer and still happier. Money comes and goes, but time just goes. I say go for it.
I was a sysadmin, and pulled down somewhere in the neighborhood of $80k Canadian a year. Before the on-call pay.
I hated it though. The stress, day in and day out was just too much. So, I dropped my $80k a year job and went back to school to study Physics.
To pay the bills (without digging into savings), I sell Mac computers part-time at the local Mac store for $8 / hr. I'm relatively poor, but I'm happier than I've ever been in the past 12 years.
I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat.
That's probably true about small, privately held companies, but I doubt any corporation is still a "fine place to work". I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's unlikely, like, say, encountering a unicorn in the mall.
I gave up a 23 year career in IT to do two new jobs: farmer and corrections officer in the local prison.
The money is about 25% of what I used to get paid.....but the work is better.
Only boring people are ever bored.
Matthew 6:26-34 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.
I have on occassion taken small pay cuts just to get out of a stupidly boring job to have a bit more mentally engaging work...as long as the money patys the bills and feeds the family, I should at least have the side benefit of enjoying what I am doing...
dB Masters
Hey boss, you know I really like working here. The benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, telecommuting, the co-workers, and you're a good boss. But I feel like I need something more challenging. I realize that all the Excel, Access, and VBA stuff is important. Not that I am not happy doing it. But perhaps, once in a while, if there's any work that involves more programming. Well, I'd like to volunteer for it. Of course this isn't going to work if your entire department only ever does Excel, Access, and VBA stuff.
:)
> However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education.
I wouldn't ever say that to anybody at work. Ever. Not even away from work. I know you don't mean it that way, but it could be miscontrued. Your boss may conclude that you think some jobs are beneath you. A waste of your skills. If I'm interviewing, and the candidate said something even remotely like that, I wouldn't hire him/her.
> The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it.
After finishing that in 10 minutes, what did you do for the rest of the day?
My sister is a researcher with an M.Sc. Once in a while she'll tell me about how she has to do clerical work. Stuffing envelopes, arranging transport for seminar participants, etc. Seems that a lot of her colleagues are in the same boat (new hires, 2 years there). None of them has yet managed to get a grant, hence no money to hire assistants. So got to do everything yourself.
In working life, there's always the good stuff that you want to do; and the lousy stuff that you have to do. Well, somebody has got to do it.
Just a couple of months ago, I had to fire one of our programmers. In terms of technical skills, he was the best we ever had. But he wouldn't share the "nobody wants to do stuff". I tried various ways to get him to change his attitude, but after a while, he was starting to poison the environment in the office.
Not joking.
A meaningful regular activity outside the office is by far the best antidote to feel constrained in such a good position.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Heck, I probably make 20 to 40 thousand less, but it's way more fun and you learn new things every day.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I think keep the current job, but make it more fun. Find things that need work... your co-workers won't always know, but you should be creative and see things that need work, need tweaking, need a brand new process. If your goal is software development/coding... surely there are a 1000 things that you could make to help the company.
For instance:
1. Find some mundane data entry type process. Find a way to make a front end for it that would either make it faster, more efficient, more accurate, or more useful later (like in database format instead of just random excel docs, etc.)
2. Similar to #1, get a hold of some SQL databases and move any Access databases to the more robust SQL side. You can then make a VB front end to enter in the data or whatnot.
3. Find reports that are useful for management, all workers, remote workers, whatever... make dynamic reporting mechanisms for your intranet.
4. Get with other techie workers and see what things you could develope that would streamline their day. Be prepared for a lot of revisions... which is good practice for real world coding anyhow.
You need to read "Death March" by Ed Yourdon. Here's a link:
1 69512&seqNum=3&rl=1
http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=
In it he gives several strategies for dealing with projects like what you are stuck with. On is to prepare your resume, do things the way they should be, and tell the higher-ups to lump it. If the job really is that bad, there's no way they can get anyone else to do it. If they fire you, your resume should already be in the pipeline, and their project will go down in flames.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
Would you leave the startup to go to the mundane just for more money and security?
If not, I'd make the move.
HTH.
I think he is going to get a 50%-50% response from us. It's good to have a good paying job with no stress, but boring as hell. And it is equally good to have an "interesting" or "exciting" job where you don't dread coming to work, but look forward, and having supporting co-workers and challenges. But, then in the new start-up you will be busy as hell with no sleep trying to keep as many plates spinning as possible.
Since he doesn't have children, not married (except for a girlfriend which equals HIGH MAINTENANCE and sex sex sex), low cost of living, it's basically a coin toss. It sounds like its going to be either a gut instinct guess, or he needs to gather more information.
What will it accomplish for you?
1. Less Income
If you can afford to take the pay cut and there is a VERY STRONG chance of it going up beyond what you have now soon, then MAYBE take the job.
Otherwise just keep looking.
Issues are expenses verses income. If income goes down, so must expenses; otherwise insolvency occurs.
Of course if you are already independently wealthy and do not need a paycheck, by all means, amuse yourself with the more interesting job, since money doesn't matter.
But I presume that you are not, since you have posted a discussion here.
Would "I" do it. No. Not after having done it in the past. It led to me feeling miserable in the long run with current pay which DID NOT go up until I changed jobs again.
I doubt any corporation is still a "fine place to work".
My experience says otherwise.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
What type of corporation do you work for? I'm curious.
Sounds like the paycut job would look better on your CV anyway, meaning in the long term, you'll probably make up for any short term losses. I reckon when you are young and childless, you may as well take chances, you may not be able to when you are older.
Real world training can transfer to gaming to a certain extent, but there are considerations required for gaming that can't be gotten from real life experience. The user interface, small/distorted viewport looking through the monitor, and network transmission lag time all require game-specific reflexes and skills. For that reason, gaming skills don't transfer too well to real life either. The reflexes and priorities are simply tuned wrong.
I will say that a flight-sim gamer would do a lot better in a real aircraft than someone with no experience at all. But a real life fighter pilot is going to romp all over a gaming "ace" simply due to the depth of real life considerations that he's learned to deal with, such as the demanding physical environment. As with anything, some people are "naturals" and for these few people, flightsims are just another dynamic experience that will transfer to anything they do, from flying to playing golf. But for most people, there is no substitute for actual flight time.
The best book I can think of for a gaming simmer is Robert Shaw's "Figher Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering". I think it's still in limited print, otherwise you should be able to easily find a used copy on Amazon or wherever. It's a bit dated where it comes to modern jet combat, but if you can handle the level of detail it's probably the best introduction to aerial combat you'll find anywhere outside of a secure military location. The list of sources is worth just as much as the book itself, and if I recall correctly (I read Shaw's book at around age 14 in high school) you could probably find enough reading material referenced in this one book to keep you busy for a couple of years.
If you want to get really "good at flight sims", check out Aces High 2 at http://www.hitechcreations.com/ You won't find a better place to improve flightsim skills against real opponents than in the AH arenas. Yea there's a monthly fee to use the full arenas, but their head 2 head arenas and software are free if you just want to check it out without subscribing.
Well, I'm involved in a start-up now, but I spent the last three and a half years at Apple computer. Besides Apple, I've worked at several Wall Street firms, and I was a manager at KPMG Peat Marwick for a while. The only places I've been that had major Dilbert-world situations were both telcos, and I bailed out of each of those pretty quick.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I used to work for a place with an insane system administrator who was friendly with the company owner. True story: he tried to force me to use VB-style "Hungarian Notation" in my PERL SCRIPTS. We had this conversation before I fled the company:
Him: From now on, you'll have to name your variables according to this paper. It's called "Hungarian Notation".
Me: Beg pardon?
Him: You must use Hungarian Notation in all your Perl programs.
Me: You want me to put a prefix in front of variables so you can tell what the variable is supposed to be?
Him: Yes.
Me: Are you feeling ok?
Him: Just do it.
Me: No way, that's crazy.
Him: DO IT.
Me: Look, in Perl, you can use a variable as a string one minute, as a number the next, process it with a regexp as a string then, and turn it back into a number for the next step. Your prefix scheme won't work, unless you want me to just call everything a "variant" and prefix it with "v".
Him: Nuh, uh. If you're using a variable four ways, use four variables.
Me: On a web server? Everything will end up paging to disk and the server'll melt. You don't even have particularly strong hardware. Are you nuts? It's ridiculous.
Him: JUST DO IT.
Yeah... I didn't like working for corporations...
No question. I took a $20K pay cut to take my current job. Sanity is worth more than money, as long as there's enough money to get by on eating store brand.
"I'm feeling very shpongled. Smashed, mashed, completely geshtopenflapped."
The problem there was the idiot, not the size of the organization. I've encountered idiots everywhere from the Fortune 100 to a five-man operation.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Heh heh... Yeah, it's true. But I love telling that story. The guy was really funny looking, too, sort of like a huge overgrown squirrel.