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Nazi ideology is not banned by the German constitution. Some Nazi statements are banned, though they must either call for violence or racial hatred, deny the holocaust, or glorify the Nazi government of Hitler. Racist statements that do not call for hate or violence are allowed. Similar laws exist in the United States (see here for the court's opinion) where the main difference is that the US only bans such fighting speech when it incites to immediate violence or hate. Invitations to deferred violence or hate, such as are found in far right music in Germany, or even if they are in writing or transmitted by radio, are banned by the German penile code.

Is this what you mean?
(1) All persons shall be equal before the law.

I don't see how this is relevant here, though.

You have even less rights than european citizens living in old europe

Wha? Erm; I live in Germany, and last time I checked the degree of social freedom was very agreeable indeed. I suggest you take a look at the German constitution. Bear in mind that, more than the American one, the German constitution is still well supported by the courts, both in its letter and spirit.

Germans, after all, have seen what lies at the end of the road that the US is sleepwalking down. I refer, of course, to the Stasi.

Actually, a consequence of these laws is that you cannot "spot them" on sight.

please elaborate. You keep repeating that it's impossible to identify bad people without absolutely free speech, yet you failt to explain why.

Don't be so glib. The US legal tradition of free speech goes back many centuries.

And that is relevant to what I said how? I pointed out that it's possible to talk about Nazis without allowing them themselves to talk. To use another analogy: Chemical weapons are illegal to own and there are treaties restricting them on the nation level. Yet we can talk about them and we'd be able to identify them, even though people are not allowed to use them freely. Because knowing something and experiencing something are two different things.

Germany doesn't just prohibit "hate speech", it prohibits speech based on whether it may offend particular groups.

Can you point me to the corresponding laws? Right now I only find 185, 166 and 130 StGB.
185 prohibits insults - however, insults under 185 need to be libellous (the direct translation would be "reputation-violating", so the meaning is that they need to be aimed at damaging the victom's reputation). Merely making a statement someone doesn't agree with doesn't apply.
166 prohibits the "insulting of denominations, religious communities and ideological communities" but only if the insult occurs "in a way fit to disturb public peace". Again, I can say anything I want about a religion as long as I don't cause an uproar. The paragraph isn't one of our best but it's not quite as restrictive as you make it look like.
130 prohibits "agitation of the people" and targets (to quote this translation of the StGB) "[w]hoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population", plus people who disseminate/publicly display/offer to people under 18 writings doing the same, plus people who deny the Holocaust. Apart from the last bit that's a pretty average hate speech law and it doesn't cover "might offend". While the USA doesn't have a similar federal law, many states have similar state laws. The Anti-Defamation League has a nice map.

So, you're saying its certain then? The reason Americans enjoy free speech rights is not because the Constitution says so, it's because people constantly fight for them.

That's funny, I must've looked somewhere else when they repealed the First Amendment so they could stop people talking about sex.

And the fact that these politicians think this helps them politically tells you a lot about German voters, as does the fact that you and others don't seem to think it matters much.

So the Americans are okay with a constitutional amendment denying healthcare benefits to same-sex couples? Because Sarah Palin said she supports it and I didn't see anyone physically attacking her over it. Oh, there was an outrage? Funny, same thing happens over here (on a smaller scale, though, because people aren't quite as touchy about gaming).

Just because I'm not surprised that politicians are trying everything to profile themselves doesn't mean I just sit there and take it in. I just know that nothing big is going to come out of this one and I care more about the politicians with a lower profile, a real malicious agenda and actual power over what they talk about. Of course this teacup-sized storm doesn't alarm me much; I know it's not going anywhere and won't be talked about once the election's over.

So I follow the same course of action that sa

That depends on what country and state you're in, but yes failure to render assistance in a life threatening situation can be criminal.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/aals06/251-52.pdf
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm#323c

Plus, if you ignore your civic duty and fail to take reasonable action you can be held civilly liable.

As far as I know, the German government isn't even legally allowed to censor anything except for the protection of children due to the Grundgesetztbuch (Book of Basic laws) Article 5. It was written before the Internet but if specifically mentions radio and TV so that nobody misinterpret the law.

If Wikileaks tells the truth about the reason of this happening than they should sue the German government (yes, you can do that in Germany).

German: http://www.bundestag.de/parlament/funktion/gesetze/grundgesetz/gg_01.html

English translation: http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#5

In Germany, simply greeting someone in public with, "sieg heil" ("hail victory") or the Roman salute (yes, whipper-snappers, its widespread use predates Hitler's Nazism) is punishable by up to three years in jail. Think about that for a moment: saying hello in an unsavory way could get you locked up for three years.

Perhaps certain Germans should watch their own excellent film production of the last days of Sophie Scholl, particularly the interrogation. 65 years ago a woman suffered humiliation for uttering the words "down with Hitler!" - today the German government s/down/up/ and does pretty much the same. And, no, locking you up until you stop speaking is not "better" than putting you to death, for there is no life in slavery.

If your response is "but the Reich was bad, and the Bundesrepublik is good!" then you're no different to Scholl's interrogator: you combine a belief in absolutes with a desire to eliminate those who aren't absolutely in step with you. The threat of fascism today is much greater, not because we're "nearly there" - the new Weimar republic is only just coming to fruition - but because once we reach it, today's technology in the hands of government makes resistance almost impossible.

There's an English translation of the "GG" here.

Some notes:
1. Do you define anything as speech that comes out of a mouth (or pen or key board or...)? A problem is that we assume that speech is used to communicate information and communicating false information can cause severe damage, both economic and physical, to other people. Acts like fraud usually involve promising things you don't fulfill. Does freedom of speech mean that there cannot be consequences for anything you say (this would include contracts if we interpret speech to mean media) or should it mean (as is probably intended) that the government cannot prevent you from criticising it and openly discussing issues they would rather sweep under the rug? No consequences means no accountability which in turn means that speech cannot be trusted. Since speech is often interpreted as referring to any communication the lack of accountability would mean we could no longer communicate with any form of insurance that people are saying the truth.

2. It says "bear arms" but the lack of any prescribed limits or statement that there are none leaves it open to the government to issue limitations as long as at least one form of weapon is permitted. I think this needs to be clarified to be unambiguous (e.g. "any personell weapon") or just handed down to "normal" law completely.

5. The issue with subjective values in assessing values is that you can't really put a price on them and it leaves too much leeway to whoever is in charge of assessing them with no way to review the decision.

Remember that Common Law dictates that the interpretation of a law by a judge is effectively a new law so you can never say "no interpreting" because your entire legal system is based on such interpretations.

I think Article 18, GG counts although it's not freedom of speech but freedom of expression in Germany. Though I think this law applies de-facto in many more countries because combating the basic order of the country would be considered treason, terrorism or any number of other crimes.

> you may be able to argue that there is an implied agreement

No, there is no implied agreement. There is an explicit agreement on which this tax is based.

Article 53 defines what kind of copying is allowed. Article 54 says there should be a compensation for it.

> That means that publishers should be forbidden to add any DRM, region codes, Macrovision and whatnot to their content.

I think this is the interesting part. Are works published with copy protection entitled to a share of those fees?
If I understand the law (Article 54) correctly, they are not.

Summarized, this law says that you are allowed to handle someone elses affairs (here: kill a malicious process), if you assume that the owner wants it to be done and can't do it himself for some reason.

But doing so, you need to take special care not to do any damage, else you are responsible to compensate the owner for any damages.

Additionally, you must inform the owner as soon as possible, and give him the chance to do the job himself, if possible. So if you kill a process on someone elses machine, you must take any reasonable measure to find out who is responsible for that machine, and inform him about your actions.

This posting describes my unprofessional understanding of german law - I probably got some details wrong, but I think I got the point. See this page, subchapter 11, for a translation of that law.

to handle the results of the Bundestag election (that's the national parliament) on September 22nd

As far as I know the software is used to determine the preliminary results on that day, especially for the media. The official results will be determined as before, that is without any software.

Throughout this thread it seems that a lot of US based readers assume German elections work just as US elections, which is not the case. For the curious: Introduction to the German Federal Election System

Alex

Good point. However, does that mean that non-open source systems are not accountable? Ah, I see the misunderstanding! In the US, elections are automated. In Germany they are not, so all the system does is number crunch the raw data gathered by the local offices. All it does - afaik - is calculate the parlamentary seats from the votes by the so called "System Niemeyer"

Anyway, to bring my point accross

1) The ballot counting in Germany is still done by hand (which is good, see US elections), so no software at all (opensource or whatever) is involved. You either trust the results, or you don't

2) You need the raw data to verify the system, again regardless of the software used. Now IF you
have the raw data, the you can verify the system, because the algorithem used is public domain. Regardless of open or closed source

So all this is is a little media hoopla, and possibly allows some students to re-use the code for some university elections. But it does - in no way - make elections any more or less accountable.

Alex

Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany (Grundgesetz, GG)

Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

...

Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB)

Section 86 Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:

1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;

2. of an organization, which has been banned, no longer subject to appeal, because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of international understanding, or as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a banned organization;

3. of a government, organization or institution outside of the territorial area of application of this law which is active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organizations indicated in numbers 1 and 2; or

4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Means of propaganda within the meaning of subsection (1) shall only be those writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of international understanding.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If guilt is slight, the court may refrain from imposition of punishment pursuant to this provision.

Section 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in Section 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.

(3) Section 86 subsections (3) and (4), shall apply accordingly.

Section 130 Agitation of the People

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or

2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(2) Whoever: 1. with respect to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which incite hatred against segments of the population or a national, racial or religious group, or one characterized by its folk customs, which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming segments of the population or a previously indicated group:

a) disseminates them;

b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

c) offers, gives or makes accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers a through c or facilitate such use by another; or

2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in number 1 by radio,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or renders harmless an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 220a subsection (1), in a manner capable of disturbing the public piece shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

...

Section 131 Representation of Violence

(1) Whoever, in relation to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which describe cruel or otherwise inhuman acts of violence against human beings in a manner which expresses a glorification or rendering harmless of such acts of violence or which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which injures human dignity:

1. disseminates them;

2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

3. offers, gives or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers 1 through 3 or facilitate such use by another,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.

(2) Whoever disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in subsection (1) by radio, shall be similarly punished.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply if the act serves as reporting about current or historical events.

(4) Subsection (1), number 3 shall not be applicable if the person authorized to care for the person acts.

Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany (Grundgesetz, GG)

Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

...

Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB)

Section 86 Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:

1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;

2. of an organization, which has been banned, no longer subject to appeal, because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of international understanding, or as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a banned organization;

3. of a government, organization or institution outside of the territorial area of application of this law which is active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organizations indicated in numbers 1 and 2; or

4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Means of propaganda within the meaning of subsection (1) shall only be those writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of international understanding.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If guilt is slight, the court may refrain from imposition of punishment pursuant to this provision.

Section 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in Section 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.

(3) Section 86 subsections (3) and (4), shall apply accordingly.

Section 130 Agitation of the People

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or

2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(2) Whoever: 1. with respect to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which incite hatred against segments of the population or a national, racial or religious group, or one characterized by its folk customs, which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming segments of the population or a previously indicated group:

a) disseminates them;

b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

c) offers, gives or makes accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers a through c or facilitate such use by another; or

2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in number 1 by radio,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or renders harmless an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 220a subsection (1), in a manner capable of disturbing the public piece shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

...

Section 131 Representation of Violence

(1) Whoever, in relation to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which describe cruel or otherwise inhuman acts of violence against human beings in a manner which expresses a glorification or rendering harmless of such acts of violence or which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which injures human dignity:

1. disseminates them;

2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

3. offers, gives or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers 1 through 3 or facilitate such use by another,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.

(2) Whoever disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in subsection (1) by radio, shall be similarly punished.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply if the act serves as reporting about current or historical events.

(4) Subsection (1), number 3 shall not be applicable if the person authorized to care for the person acts.

Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany (Grundgesetz, GG)

Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

...

Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB)

Section 86 Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:

1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;

2. of an organization, which has been banned, no longer subject to appeal, because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of international understanding, or as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a banned organization;

3. of a government, organization or institution outside of the territorial area of application of this law which is active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organizations indicated in numbers 1 and 2; or

4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Means of propaganda within the meaning of subsection (1) shall only be those writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of international understanding.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If guilt is slight, the court may refrain from imposition of punishment pursuant to this provision.

Section 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in Section 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.

(3) Section 86 subsections (3) and (4), shall apply accordingly.

Section 130 Agitation of the People

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or

2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(2) Whoever: 1. with respect to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which incite hatred against segments of the population or a national, racial or religious group, or one characterized by its folk customs, which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming segments of the population or a previously indicated group:

a) disseminates them;

b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

c) offers, gives or makes accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers a through c or facilitate such use by another; or

2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in number 1 by radio,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or renders harmless an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 220a subsection (1), in a manner capable of disturbing the public piece shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

...

Section 131 Representation of Violence

(1) Whoever, in relation to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which describe cruel or otherwise inhuman acts of violence against human beings in a manner which expresses a glorification or rendering harmless of such acts of violence or which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which injures human dignity:

1. disseminates them;

2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;

3. offers, gives or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or

4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers 1 through 3 or facilitate such use by another,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.

(2) Whoever disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in subsection (1) by radio, shall be similarly punished.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply if the act serves as reporting about current or historical events.

(4) Subsection (1), number 3 shall not be applicable if the person authorized to care for the person acts.

This sort of thing is quite common and it highlights how naive Ebay must be to consider such a bid - there is so much undefined risk in the business of an auction house, only a combination of historical, legal and art experts could manage to assess.

However, with such a concentration of the employment of these in the main auction houses, the public is at a disadvantage to discover what is really going on. *all great fortunes are founded on a crime* taken note of by many in this business, I am sure. Here's the link :

http://iecl.iuscomp.org/gl a/judgments/foreign/gotha1.htm