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Ask Slashdot: What's the Best Way To Deal With Roving TSA Teams?
An anonymous reader writes "I live in Boston, and I have noticed the TSA performs random security checks at the Copley T (subway station) and other locations. I routinely travel with a laptop, iPhone, and other gadgetry. What are my rights when asked by one of the TSA agents to 'come over here'? Can I say no and proceed with my private business? What if a police officer says that I 'must go over there and cooperate'? Can I decline or ask for a warrant? Like the majority of the population, I turn into an absolute shrinking violet when pressured by intimidating authority, but I struggle with what I see to be blatant social devolution. Has anybody out there actually responded rationally, without complying? What were your experiences?"
Turn around and RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!! Or maybe you can duck and cover... It's up to you...
Unless I'm mistaken, you don't have rights anymore. If the TSA thinks you're a terrorist based on your evasiveness and defiance they can detain you indefinitely.
As far as they are concerned, you have no rights.
Seeing as they just passed a defence bill allowing indefinite detention without trial for suspected terrorists, for now I would just go with it.
If the answer to either of those questions is "No", then you better do what they tell you.
Sure, they're violating your rights. But in the United States, you have no recourse except to go to court. Which will costs LOTS of money. More than you have, probably. And don't forget that the cops and TSA will make your life hell while the case slowly progresses.
This country is so fucked.
1-800-STO-PTSA
I hope this helps your resistance to fascism.
Yours In Ulanbator,
K. Trout, C.I.O.
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/tsa-seeks-expand-airport-experience-everyday-life
And
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/know-your-rights-when-traveling
While it might not be exactly your situation, you can probably find 90% of what you need from the EFF. If you need more specific information, you will probably need to ask real counsel.
Considering Obama signed the law which allows indefinite detention without due process, you are correct at being intimidated.
Unless they are carrying a weapon and a REAL badge, you can probably tell them to fly a kite (especially if it's not a standard gateway procedure such as those as airports)... not sure how that'd stand up under scrutiny... but, they aren't "officers of the law" unless they ARE "officers"... very few of them if any are actually LE...
Good luck!
Why would you want to avoid the TSA? What are you hiding?
You must be a criminal!
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
... Dress sharply at all times, and keep a business-like posture and demeanour. Playing bully with a peon is safe enough, but harassing an (apparently) wealthy and influent person is a career-destroying move. You don't mess with the Ruling Elite, so might as well camouflage as one.
Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
TSA agents are NOT law enforcement, even if they pretend to be. They do not have legal authority to arrest you.
Recently, a bill was proposed to prevent the TSA from wearing badges, or otherwise dressing like real cops. Hopefully this passes.
In Washington, DC, you can refuse to allow inspection of your bags when entering the subway, but then you will be turned away need to find alternative transportation, and *may* be followed. (I don't recall if they *always* follow or not.)
If the police were confronted by this 90% er 50% more like as little as 10% of the time, it would be such a gigantic waste of their resources that they'd stop violating your rights.
Perhaps you should talk to a lawyer, or the ACLU, or the EFF?
Palm trees and 8
You know where they have lawyers and actually might know more than the random crap you'll get here.
Like the majority of the population, I turn into an absolute shrinking violet when pressured by intimidating authority
Maybe like the majority of your friends who have to ask the Internet what to do when approached by another person.
Has anybody out there actually responded rationally, without complying? What were your experiences?
Here's your answer, pansy. Last time this happened to me, I calmy unsheathed my hanzo steel while muttering sadly to myself, decapitated the barbarian gaijan weakling who dared confront my superior knowledge of glorious Nippon, and walked calmly away. At that point, the kawaiiest girl in the station, who previously had solidly friend zoned me because I am a NICE GUY, unlike those uncouth jock hairy chest asshole she prefers, realized that I was the one for her and we strolled of towards the next flight to glorious Nippon, whereupon she served me tea in a kimono.
Start here: http://www.flexyourrights.org/
Trusting software vendors is no smarter than trus
"Why are you detaining me?"
"Am I under arrest?"
"Am I free to go?"
Yeah, if only our founding fathers had thought that.
Pussy.
Everyone needs to stand up for their civil rights, or no will have any civil rights anymore. The TSA thinks they're above the law, above the Bill of Rights, and they have to be proven wrong. That, and the TSA needs to be dismantled. If they're "expanding" into non-airport-related areas (train stations, bus stations, docks), how long does anyone think it'll be before they start performing traffic stops at random and committing search-and-seizure without a warrant "because they thought you acted/looked/smelled like a terrorist"?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
When it comes to police in most civilized societies, you get to have a very simple dialogue. You can say: "I refuse to volunteer for any such [delay]; but if you order me to do so, I will comply with any order you give."
If you don't volunteer, and you make that an official statement, then the officer needs to decide to make it an order. They aren't allowed to give illegal orders. If they do, you still must comply with it at the time, and without hesitation, but you can fight that later in court.
Basically, it puts everyone on the their best behaviour. If you aren't happy with what winds up happening, and you later discover that they weren't permitted to do so, then you can easily fight it after the fact.
Just remember two things: a) police are allowed to trick you into volunteering, or even kind of volunteering. So make sure you hear the word "order". b) police can be nice and legal, nice and illegal, or mean and legal. Be sure you know what you're risking.
You _should_ be able to extend you middle finger and walk away (as in out of the station/terminal) and on your merrily private, on-foot way, if you object to warrantless searches. If you wish to ride the train/plain/bus/ whatever, bend over and relax. If you don't like _that_, stop voting for legislators who stomp on your civil rights. That goes for both parties, because 10 years down the road, The Patriot Act is still "law".
Oh, my experience? A while back, I was flying somewhere, with a recently repaired shoulder injury. Having been selected for "random screening" I was asked to partially disrobe. When I explained that that would be difficult for me, and before I could finish my sentence with "...because my shoulder is still just stitched together...", the self-important glorified rent-a-cop immediately went into power-trip mode and demanded to know if I was "...refusing to comply with a lawful request...". So my experience is pretty much like that of hundreds of other travelers every day, especially if they look, you know, like terrorists.
Ask for documentation/proof of their "right" and your requirement for compliance. Refuse in the meantime. Think of it like them asking for your ID. You're not required to have it, they can ask for it and they will pressure you until hell breaks loose. But it's not required. At least not where I am.
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
Clearly the proper solution is to open your box of genetically tamperred super-soldier fire-ants and then run. The TSA will be too busy responding to the swarm of venomous ants to chase you down and ask if you paid for that Justin Beiber mp3 in your playlist.
no need to get into trouble
I love that this was posted by AC.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
no need to get into trouble
And this is as much a problem as the overreach of authority by law enforcement.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. " - Ronald Reagan
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
I thought the US was turning into a police state, but I didn't realize the TSA gestapo were wandering the subways and accosting people at random.
I weep for the America that once was.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
At least in the DC Metro you don't have to submit to anything but you can be asked to leave the subway system. That's the legal "thinking" that allows the searches to occur because that way they are "voluntary". The really stupid bit is that you are perfectly free to then walk outside and board a bus or walk down to another station and get on the subway there, where the odds of another TSA goon is pretty low (I'm not familiar with how close the stations are in Boston but in DC walking between stations is pretty easy).
You just say no, and then ask to leave. They may ask you for your ID so you should know if you are legally required to give it (in NY you are). Of course don't be shocked then when they search you for "acting suspicious" but at that point you should contact the ACLU because they likely would love to hear about it.
fucking this ^^^
"Like the majority of the population, I turn into an absolute shrinking violet when pressured by intimidating authority, but I struggle with what I see to be blatant social devolution."
No. You're not like "the majority of the population": you have a problem with authority, while most people don't. The TSA is completely useless, and their presence is a sad statement of what the US has become, but it doesn't mean that personally complying to a TSA control is some kind of horrible event that you should struggle with and go out of your way to avoid.
You want to resist them as some form of political statement? I then encourage you, as this is necessary for things to change. But don't confuse this with protecting your bruised ego. There are plenty of times in your life you'll face "intimidating authority", and in most of these occasions, this authority will be legitimate, and will have a good reason to act so. Learning to cope with such personal feelings is important for your own psychological health.
no need to get into trouble
No kidding, the person posting the question seems to have his tinfoil wrapped too tightly.
He has a laptop and a smartphone, like that is not an ordinary every day occurrence that draws no interest, except possibly from thieves. The roving teams most likely just want to look in his bag/pack. Nothing looks ilke a block of C4 with a detonator attached, thank you have a nice day.
The easiest way is often the most frustrating. Just comply. Most TSA and Police are just there to enforce rules and regulations established and defined by bureaucrats in the department of homeland security anyhow. Keep your conversation minimal: Hello, yes, no, and thank you will get you through the process quickly and efficiently without many problems because frankly, these people hate doing this as much as you hate submitting to it. just like you, they have no real control over much of the process either. they just dont want to get barked at by the sergeant or liutenant for their shift if they dont do their job.
Do however take precautions such as encrypting your laptop and limiting gadgetry to necessities only. take note of your surroundings, the questions asked, the demeanor and names/ranks of the officers and the state of the station you're in. file FOIA requests to the government to determine who sees this data about you and how they use it; knowledge is power. Write to congress and your local government in protest of your treatment as you live in the United States, not City 17. Feel free to organize protests or drive a petition to get this behavior stopped, as these are your rights as a citizen of this country. Barring all else, discontinue your general participation in what amounts to baseless search and seisure. Move closer to work, take cabs, walk or ride a bicycle.
Good people go to bed earlier.
To fight the TSA requires any number of resources in your favor: time, money, influence, or numbers.
Perhaps the easiest way to fight this particular group is by pulling a SEP -> someone else's problem. Attend a city council meeting, and move that the local Boston Police Department have its budget slashed, reasoning that since the TSA is doing their job, the city no longer needs to pay for benefits that the Boston PD is not providing. 3 possibilities are likely -> 1.) the city council will squash the movement (but doing so will draw attention to your plight, and paint the current politicians as being in bed with the TSA -> not a good place to be when the TSA is chafing potential voters), 2.) the city will cut Boston PD's budget (at which point the Boston PD will have to make a tough choice of pissing off the populace because of a pay cut, or letting it slide), or 3.) the Boston PD will become wise to the situation, and take out a jurisdictional grievance against the TSA (they get to keep their budget, remove some competition, and look like the heroes -> kid gloves from the officers reassigned to the public transit beat, something of a junket for the officers concerned as it may be 'easy' compared to other patrols).
This is how you handle problems that you do not have the resources to fight properly -> get someone who has the proper resources to do the fighting for you. It helps if you appeal to this person's / group's best interest in a truthful, sincere way (the untruthful / insincere stuff tends to fall apart before a victory).
And yes, given the Amtrak PD's response to various TSA shenanigans, it has a precedent. And the danger to the Boston PD (or whoever patrolled that beat prior to the TSA) is quite real; you don't want a generation of Bostonians growing up thinking that it takes a guy in tactical gear with a SMG to keep public transportation safe; once they do, the original patrollers will never get that beat back (loss of territory),
I am John Hurt.
There's no point in asking what rights you have, because you have none. You can't even photograph public buildings with that iPhone, much less prevent a goon too dumb to get a job as a mall security guard from seizing it, no matter how much or how loudly you protest. And if you cause enough stink, the TSA meatheads will get an actual cop to come over and give you grief. If they want to badly enough, they can now, thanks to President Obama, detain you indefinitely if they so choose. Even confessing to whatever they think you might well do at some point in the future may not get your released. You won't be allowed to talk to anyone about it, either -- not even a lawyer. And even when (if) you are let go, don't talk about it or they can jug your once again.
For those not counting, the Federal government has in this one encounter wiped its collective ass with the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and (probably) 9th Amendments, as well as pissing on the grave of habeas corpus.
Have a nice day.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
The simple response is two questions.
Am I being detained?
Am I free to go?
A more correct response will require some study case law, current events and the laws that are recently passed. Be respectful without being walked all over.
Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who live by the gun...
You can choose to leave, but then you can't ride. That's your course of action. Thankfully since it is the mbta, there is usually another stop fairly close by, especially downtown.
The MBTA has been conducting random security inspections regularly since October 2006. Passengers are selected on a random basis through the use of a computer generated sequence of numbers. These inspections involve the brushing, with a swab, of the exterior of a carry-on. This swab is then placed in explosive trace detection equipment. The entire process should take approximately 10-20 seconds if no positive reading occurs. There are notices posted at the entrance to the station that the inspection is in progress. A passenger may choose not to be inspected but then is prohibited from riding on the MBTA. Through a cooperative partnership with the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), TSA personnel assist us at some of the inspection sites. There authority to assist is derived from 49 U.S.C. 114(d). Pub.L. 107-71 (Full Text -.pdf)
Why are the Tenant Services Authority stopping and searching people?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Everybody should check out the documentary called "Thrive". It does a pretty good job of laying out just how facist, abusive, and flat out dangerous your government is right now, it being controlled by the men at the top of the banks. (Who decided they had enough money a while ago and decided to take over the earth for shits and giggles). The time to wake up is now, seriously, humanity itself is in danger. Who do you think will do it for you? The fairy fuckin' god-mother?
"Papers? Ummm.. I think I left those at home today...."
As military personnel return from Iraq, TSA needs to expand to employ them.
If we can quickly grow the number of TSA employees, there will be no unemployment
problem by next November.
The next time you are subjected to a search, remember that you are doing your
civic duty and contributing to full employment of people who have absolutely no
useful skills.
I told the TSA employee that I wanted to opt out of the body scanner, and he asked why. My response: "I don't like the machine." His response: "Good answer." Then I was fondled with blue gloves by another TSA employee as expected.
I've also noticed that when they have the second group of TSA agents at the gate, it pays to not establish eye contact with them. The one time that I did, I was pulled aside and frisked, as well as having my backpack and sandwich inspected. The same eye avoidance technique may help in subways and other non-airport scenarios, who knows... it's only one anecdotal data point.
You can go and man the barricades; become a martyr. Have fun. Personally, I'm going to make sure my ass survives. A few years ago I might have agreed with you but now? Well, no one really gives a damn to be frank and those in power won't care even if people did give a damn. Making a stand means nothing when not only does no one else put up a stand but quiet a few cheer on as you get dragged away.
Call 911, and ask that they send police to the location immediately. Report that you suspect a person or a group of people impersonating the TSA, and that you suspect a fraud or mugging is about to occur.
FUCK THAT! They have no right to treat people like this. It's criminal and unconstitutional. Travel is a right, NOT a privelege.
In Washington, DC, you can refuse to allow inspection of your bags when entering the subway, but then you will be turned away need to find alternative transportation, and *may* be followed. (I don't recall if they *always* follow or not.)
Keep in mind that inspecting your bag means looking at what is inside, in "plain sight" so to speak. They aren't going to be intrusively poking around at the files on your laptop or smartphone.
There seems to be a misunderstanding and exaggeration due to what can happen when entering the US and undergoing a customs inspection. Customs can look at the files, they have the authority to search for contraband, just as they do when they open packages and other sealed/closed items. However this is a very special circumstance involving crossing the US border. These intrusive type of searches can not happen once inside the US without a warrant.
For me it went something like "Don't taze me, bro!"
The first thing to remember is the TSA are not officers of the law. This isn't my opinion, this is something making its way thought the senate at the moment:
"Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), the lead sponsor of the Stop TSA's Reach in Policy (STRIP) Act, said that TSA has essentially allowed its airport screeners to play dress-up by giving them metal badges and police-like uniforms in recent years. But she said many airport screeners have no "officer" qualifications, and should have this title removed." source
They've had the ability to abuse rights, previously, because they've had you in confined situations where you've already had certain rights removed. The two most obvious examples being:
You'd like to get on that plane you've already paid a lot of money to travel on? Then, whether you like what we're doing or not, you have to pass through us to get to it. Plus, you've already entered in to a secure screening area. Declining our searches and simply choosing to leave means you violate the security protections and are subject to a $10,000 fine.
You're not on US soil. Until you've passed through customs, you're in magical land where we deny you're actually on US soil and as such have zero consititutional rights. We'd like your phone and laptop to take a copy of all data on it? You have no fourth amendment here, hand it over.
Yes, it's true that the government has basically torn up the constitution in the last few weeks. They can no detain anyone, forgeign or American, indefinitiely, without access to a lawyer, without charging them, without judicial review, just because they say that they're a terrorist threat. They do have a safeguard however: once a year, you're allowed to ask them if they'd like to keep doing it.
The thing is, big brother as that is, it's massively overkill for someone politely telling a TSA goon that the fourth amendment does still apply on the streets of the US and, unless they can provide a legitimate reason for your search and seizure, you will be polite but you will not comply with unreasonable requests from minimally trained screeners who, by the senate's own definition, don't have the qualifications or training to call themselves legitimate officers. If they disappeared every politely spoken person who passively resisted, their jails would rapidly fill and every news channel would run sensational headlines about it. The street goons are going to try to hype their authority a little, they'll most likely call a police officer over to back them up who does have a little more legitimate authority, but you're not going to end up in a secret prison.
So, my take? Stay very polite. Don't get heated. Don't get angry. Simply express that you recognize they are not law enforcement officers, they are essentially an extra type of security guard at this location and that you are happy to comply with reasonable requests that any other security guard makes. If they make unreasonable requests, you will simply leave that location. (If it's a venue, leave, write the management company about how their new security made for a hostile environment and how you'll be encouraging friends not to return until better training or their replacement is arranged - if it's a subway entrance, walk the extra couple of blocks and, again, contact the transportation authority and government to tell them how you were happy to abide by legal requests but their overstepping should not be allowed.)
Politeness, walking away, then slowly burying the decision makers with the weight of the bad decisions usually works far better than shouting and screaming, overstepping in to something you can legitimately get arrested for, then just making their point for them.
Also... The more people politely passively resisting, the harder the abuses become to maintain. I just spent the last week flying. At every scanner, I requested a pat down and was very polite about it. I al
I'd rather my son know that I died for a reason than teach him to be a slave coward.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Conspiracy theorists right? I prefer to think of it as all the Coincidence Theorists being wrong.
Its a shame law enformencement entities do not make random domestic checks of politicians bribery sources. Or as they call it, corporate fund raising.
Find a lawyer. Get a suggestion from that lawyer. Reach an agreement with that lawyer to represent you should you be arrested during such a stop. (This will probably involve putting money into an escrow account equal to the charge of a few hours of his time - also called a "retainer".)
Research your local laws regarding police stops. (Also called "Terry stops".) In some states, you are under ZERO obligation to do anything unless they are explicitly detaining you, and in those locations, the simple first response is "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" If they say you are being detained, the second response would be "On suspicion of the violation of what law am I being detained?" The third response is "I will not consent to any searches, and will not answer any questions until I have an attorney present." Then you call the lawyer mentioned above. You go to booking, you get searched anyway, you answer *NO* questions that are asked.
Take direct legal advice given by random strangers on the internet with a grain of salt.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
There will always be someone who wants to take away your Rights.
The question is, to what extent are you willing to fight for your Rights?
Remember, our Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence knowing that their signatures would be used to justify their execution if they lost the fight for their liberty.
What are we willing to risk to defend our Rights?
FWIW it is not uncommon to have US history cover two classes. The Civil War is often the point that separates the two classes, there is nothing strange about it being the starting point for the second class.
chances are they will come disappear him too, just in case he was wrongfully indoctrinated by his low-life, criminal, terrorist father.
Vote for Ron Paul. End the TSA
See links below. Discuss.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_DEFENSE_BILL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/12/constitutional-expert-president-obama-says-that-he-can-kill-you-on-his-own-discretion-he-can-jail-you-indefinitely-on-his-own-discretion.html
The moment the aforementioned bill was signed, we lost the few rights we still retained after the "Patriot" act.
So remember:
1) You're a terrorist if and when some unelected bureaucrat like a TSA inspector *suspects* you're a terrorist.
2) As a suspected terrorist, you can be detained indefinitely.
Leaving the country with your cash while you can is starting to look pretty good. If you are stopped, you'd be crazy to not comply with the request, but try not to belong to whatever party isn't in power at the time. At the moment, political affiliation isn't a reason for suspected terrorism, but how long do you think that will last?
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I don't know what it's like in Boston, but in the New York subway once you enter the system by swiping the TSA can no longer search you (unless you consent). If they stop you before you swipe, you can refuse to be searched and leave the station. But then you can re-enter right away and try again until you get through. Really makes you feel safe, doesn't it?
I can't at this time see if anybody else responded to you, but your comment is funny because Reagan is the primary enabler of the overreaching militarization of America that led to this.
I have dealt with and documented the American Neo-Gestapo the DHS many times here, from my being pulled into secondary at the DHS highway checkpoints to witnessing a pack of ICE agents jump out of unmarked vehicles and swarm a 12 year-old kid for jaywalking in front of them.
I saw this coming years ago, and many of you modded me down for my "Nazi" references. Well, look what we have, and enjoy it.
-- Ethanol-fueled
Get a whole bunch of friends, a whole bunch. Fill your bags with crazy embarassing things like dildos or whatever. DRESS like a stereotypical terrorist. Let them search you, pull everything out and make a big picture of it.
If I understand this correctly, I can decline a search, but I am then denied entry. What are the rules if I walk around the block and then try to re-enter? If people are selected at random, then I should eventually get in without a search. Or are the TSA agents permitted to block me because they remember my refusal? What if I deny that they saw me before -- how can they prove they are correct? Or what if I walk around the block, and put on a fake mustache and a fedora?
This is evil and dumb.
In the 1970s I used to hear stories like that from the Soviet-union and their friends.
Eastern-Europe immigrants who lived in the communist time might have experience in these matters ask them how best to avoid random searches.
Some states have a stop and identify law, which means that for a terry stop or higher, when asked you must truthfully tell the officer your name.
Note that this is only for Terry stops and above. An officer may walk up and simply ask that you identify yourself - in the same manner that any regular citizen could do so - and in this instance you are not required to answer. You are not required to interact in any way with a police officer acting in the manner of a regular citizen. To do this they need suspicion and have to escalate it to Terry status.
Note also that in no instance are you required to prove your identity. You need not "show your papers" to anyone.
The statute may be written in such a way that there are one or two other things that the officer may legally ask and that you must answer. New Hampshire, for example, allows the officer to ask your address, why you are there, and where you are going.
Massachusetts does not have such a law, and so you do not have to respond when asked. Period, end of story.
Many people will point out the difference between theory and practice, in that the police will simply disregard the rules and do it anyway and inconvenience you so-you-might-as-well-submit-andbeasheepandyoucantfightandsoonandsoon...
Be aware that a civil rights violation is a windfall in your favor. If you have good evidence, such as a video clearly showing what happened, you can get a court judgement of from tens of thousands to a couple of million dollars... if you are willing to press the issue. This will require some investment and a lot of inconvenience on your part - think of it as an investment of 10,000 dollars to make a potential million.
It all boils down to the strength of your ethics. There can be no ethics without courage. If everyone had the courage to press the issue, then the practice would stop very quickly.
then you protest afterwards through legislative means. and make noise in the media. film it and put it on youtube. it makes no sense to protest the issue with the TSA grunts, they don't care. but if you get good video of a bad experience, that is worth gold, it creates blowback and bad press. everyone should do this when they are asked to submit: film it or have someone film your experience, then create noise about the absurdity
but protesting unfair rules on the spot means you wind up like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
so work the media and the congresscritters AFTERWARDS. don't work the TSA grunts, it's pointless
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Everyone needs to stand up for their civil rights, or no will have any civil rights anymore.
Is he, now? In theory, yes, you are absolutely right. But in practice, not everyone can do it. While I would accept the possibility that you are one of the brave, civil-disobedience, souls -- you must understand that not all people are that cool
Some of us have a job that may suffer if we are detained, have no resources to fight things in court (for months and months) and do not want to go to jail to make a point.
That's what some of the ACLU/EFF organizations are for, hopefully. An organization that's supported by us and has the resources to fight. Relying on martyrs is a less reliable plan.
I travel to the states every 2-3 years for business and pleasure. It's sad to see this happen as it's such a great and friendly place compared to the rest of the world.
If I'm a tourist on a 30 day tourist Visa - what rights do I have in the same situation as the OP? Does the constitution apply to me even though I'm from Australia?
Life comes with risks. Deal with it coward!
You are more likely to die by drunk driver than a nutcase-- which by all studies would likely get past the security measures because they've been proven to be not that effective even when the nutcase is really openly nutty (trying to set shoe on fire or crotch) and their parents tell on them in advance.
People die. get over it!
We should ban cars from going over 20mph because they kill 10,000s of people each year! Sorry, if you die and it is not your fault but life is not fair and we collectively will not give up our privileges to drive over 20mph. Tough! our collective time saved is worth more than your lives. Welcome to reality.
What about all the drugs the FDA approves when only a few % dead is acceptable?
I'll skip the ben franklin quote about giving up liberty; everybody should already know that one (but do they understand it?)
Defect. Emigrate. GTFO out of the rubble that was once the USA
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Or is that Aliens....
"She's furniture with a pulse"
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15725035/officials-claim-tennessee-becomes-first-state-to-deploy-vipr-statewide
Not because you are going to turn in to an Internet Toughguy and go shoot at the agents or anything, but just to make their lives difficult and show the stupidity of what they are doing. Nothing makes a checkpoint for weapons worthless like someone who is in fact carrying weapons and doing so legally.
Where I live (Arizona) concealed carry is legal with or without a permit. I don't carry a gun because there's no real reason to, I find it unlikely I would find a situation where I would need to use it. However in the event the TSA starts doing that shit here, I'll start carrying any time I know I might encounter a checkpoint.
Now of course if you are going to do this do some prep work first:
1) Make sure you can legally carry a weapon, either concealed or openly, in your state and city. Laws vary. Make 110% sure you understand the law and you are properly licensed. Most states require a permit for concealed carry.
2) Make sure you can legally carry a weapon in the areas you will be going. Some places will be prohibited by statue, like here schools would be one of those places, others because the owners post a sign that say you can't have weapons. Only carry in an area that is legal. So if the subway is an area that doesn't allow weapons by statute or policy, then you can't do it.
3) Be ready to be arrested and have your gun taken away. If they do that, comply completely. Don't try and fight or something stupid. You'll WTFPWN them in court, but that is where you fight it.
If it is legal, and you are willing to start some trouble, then this is a way to do it and to point out the stupidity. Also, you will have people (like the NRA) on your side in the fight.
to a country that is actually free.
Just don't say you're American, your politicians/foreign policies have ensured you've got a pretty bad name amongst the rest of the world.
He looks kinda funny, I swear.
Here, there, anywhere.
Tairsts, potential tairsts, and suspected tairsts... oh, and tairst sympathizers, potential tairst sympathizers and suspected tairst sympathizers.
Anything shiny
And sold on eBay.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Everyone needs to stand up for their civil rights, or no will have any civil rights anymore.
This is demonstrably untrue. Only a tiny percentage of people were ever involved in repealing Jim Crow laws during the 50s/60s civil rights era. Indeed, many people opposed the change.
Your statement that unless everyone stands up for civil rights, no one will have then any more is unproven.
Advice: on VPS providers
"Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests."
You won't be bothered. Nobody's going to search you. It's extremely unlikely that you are going to be singled out.
But you should be prepared. I see other people have mentioned checking with the Electronic Freedom Foundation, and that's a great suggestion. I would also recommend contacting the ACLU. They are really good people. The best, and really helpful. They've got lots of good information, and in a worst case, will look out for you if you end up getting in trouble.
If you are stopped, and decline to be searched or otherwise molested by TSA, just be polite about it. The TSA may be a shitty idea doing the wrong thing, but they're still just working stiffs. They might be having a bad day too and you don't need to be confrontational until you get a little higher up the food chain. Then you can be as obnoxious as you wanna be.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You've got black shirts stopping people in the subway, indefinite detention without a right to trial, casual surveillance of comings and goings, police brutality in the open, and severe restrictions on free speech and the right to peaceful assembly.
You know what's coming, don't you? Or maybe not, as apparently world history is not really taught in American schools anymore.
Where does it state in those laws that anyone got to provide you with the means to use said freedoms? It is one of the simplest means of oppresion, give people allt he right they want but not the means to use them. Freedom to organize a union just allow companies to not hire union people. Freedom of expression but make sure that the media are firmly controlled by the super rich. Freedom to travel to your nations capital to protest just the costs of going there are to loose your job for taking time off, expensive travel and staying costs and break up any camps if people can't afford hotels. There are plenty of people protesting all the time in Washington after all. They are called lobbyist and they can afford to spend time "protesting", afford the hotels etc etc.
Freedoms mean nothing if you do not have the means to use them.
Yes, you're very smart because you studied Latin and never make typographical errors.
You should take yourself to dinner tonight to celebrate. You can pay for it with the full refund I'm offering you for my comment.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
... Dress sharply at all times, and keep a business-like posture and demeanour. Playing bully with a peon is safe enough, but harassing an (apparently) wealthy and influent person is a career-destroying move. You don't mess with the Ruling Elite, so might as well camouflage as one.
In other words, not so much camoflauge as Batesian Mimicry .
I know the first answer someone is probably going to think about is - "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" but ....
Our laws are too complicated now. We know not to murder someone. But, when it gets to the point of, "Ask the ACLU if they can do this." or "Ask your attorney" the law is getting too damn difficult for people to understand. I'm not a religious person, but the 10 Commandments is sort of a good standing ground. Why cant we have - "Thou shalt not ....." rather than having "Thou shalt not ....." (see exceptions, below and per previous cases)? Do we need to have the ACLU on speed-dial or do we need to read the entire law book just to make sure we know everything?
The search for explosives is a good idea on the surface but they can always find other things that might get you arrested even if you're really nice about consenting.
And besides the fact that some police officers will abuse their powers and they can and always will change their story to work in their favor. Judges will usually side with the police even if you're an angel before it goes to a court.
Basically your mostly option is to change the Senators, Congressman and President to more average joes. Since its usually only the elite sitting in office, they could care less about most of us.
Make them arrest you. Make them charge you. This will give you standing in court and will enable you to challenge this law as being Un-Constitutional.
Now here's the reality. The TSA never charges anybody, they know full well that this law will never pass muster against the 4th Amendment. But what they do do is they have the train station or airport operators "ban" you from using their facilities in the future. And in the future if you set foot on the property, you will be charged with trespassing, which is a totally different crime.
. I agree that outright fighting isn't the answer but begging isn't going to work either. I'd suggest impeachments
You really think you can get anyone impeached? Unless they are busted in a FBI corruption sting, I'd say your chances are about zero.
The reason why we are stuck with these idiots and petty tyrants leading us is because 70% of the population just doesn't give a fuck. They want their SUVs and big screen cable TV, and they don't give a damn if somebody passes a law that allows indefinite detention of 'Terrorists'.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
I live in Boston. I ride the T fairly often, but haven't seen these TSA stops yet. I will ignore them when I see them, and probably get arrested. Then you can bail me out. Pretty please.
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/know-your-rights-when-traveling
TRAVELLING WITH BREAST MILK
Soviet Russia called they want their Papers please, Comrade.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
No, but moving around from place to place IS a right.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Americans have lived through civil war, economic collapse, a surprise military attack on U.S. territory, dictators and world war on two fronts, and, for 50 years, the threat of nuclear Armageddon. Through all these threats, we mostly stayed true to our values and preserved our freedom. And when we didn’t, it didn’t make us safer and we always came to regret it.
Back in Poland in the early 1980's my mom and me used to run between building if we were out past curfew and saw the ZOMO in the area. So yah run and stop using public transport or any transport that TSA can inspect. Enough people do it i'll eventually collapse from no money.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
You have nothing to gain by not cooperating. At the same time let the agent know that you would like them to fully identify themselves and that you have every intention of reporting them to their superiors. Sounds like there are rogue agents overstepping the bounds of their authority or perhaps we are just one step closer to becoming the largest police state in the world.
The thing to do is to convince our Congressmen
those 'congressmen' do not give zit about what you think. so you cant 'convince' them either. they have been elected there by the monetary backing of private interest groups who are much richer than rest 95% of the population. only they have their ear.
you have 2 choices at this juncture :
- be richer than 5% or so of the population, that controls 72% of the wealth. (in contrast you have only 15% - so its impossible - there would be enough who made it that much up till this point if it would work)
- get rid of the economic system that allows tiny minority of population to command 70-80% of economic wealth.
- get rid of the current existing political system, in which only those who are extremely rich or have the backing of extremely rich can get elected.
Read radical news here
They are in all kinds of trouble if they say that. Refuse the search, let them arrest you, then lawsuit. Refusal of a search is NOT grounds for arrest, this has been tested in court.
A friend of mine in Eugene Or., ended up in a fray with a TSA agent. He has seizures. The result of a brain injury when he was a child (think car accident.) His seizures manifest by loud sometime ranting behavior. He's careful to explain to people not to take it personal or seriously, because he simply can't help it and it doesn't mean anything. While collecting his social security check, he had a dispute with a clerk, which escalated and was asked to go outside. There was a TSA agent in the area who overheard him yelling at the security guard. He explained his problem, what the clerk had done wrong, and why he was yelling.
The TSA agent determined he was a threat and proceeded to beat the ever living hell out of him. When my friend continued to try to explain, he was further charged with resisting and was ultimately charged with over half a dozen felony counts including assaulting a TSA agent. Of course the humorous part is that my friend is about five foot three, one hundred and fifteen pounds soaking wet and the TSA agent was over six foot and more than a hundred pounds heavier. All the while claiming my friend was threatening and menacing. It took two years to finally resolve this in court. It was a ridiculous trial and he escaped jail time by the skin of his teeth and though the agent clearly used excessive force, was never held responsible for his actions.
Our society is shifting in dark and unpleasant ways, and I fear that if the public at large doesn't do something soon, the window of opportunity to put things right may pass us by.
Generally, every person upon whom police action is taken has a right to know the authority under which that action is taken. If every person asked for proof showing the name of the "officer", his employer, and asked for the statute under which the action was being taken, there would be a lot less silliness by these people and much less frequent searches. Look it up in the laws where you live, and know what you have a right to demand of these people.
No, but moving around from place to place IS a right.
No one's freedom of movement is being restricted, only the methods that they use to move. Like was said above, the letter of the law is upheld even if the spirit is not.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Seriously; next time walk through with a box of donuts, well maybe two times...once they get to know you they will leave you alone.
Vote for Ron Paul. End the TSA
I don't agree with the majority of Ron Paul's policy, but let's say I agree with this one. Is there any evidence that Ron Paul, as President, would have the power to eliminate the TSA? The TSA was created by an act of the 107th Congress. Presumably it would take another act of Congress to repeal it. We have a sitting Congress right now that is majority Republican, and they're doing nothing. What is Ron Paul going to do about it, realistically?
Breakfast served all day!
Pretty sure that the TSA don't have the "warrants" part.
Dilbert RSS feed
Public transportation is not a right, and the taxes levied to support it are just stealing.
I hope we can get Ron Paul elected so that we can dismantle these unconstitutional rights violations.
Then we can get to the constitutional programs and really send the country into chaos. As long as I have my fucking civil liberties, everything is fine.
Customs has a lot of leeway, the SC has ruled you don't have a right to privacy at the border, and that a country has the right to secure its borders. Hence, searches without warrant or cause are legal.
Now customs has claimed that means they can search contents of computers, and seize those computers for as long as they want. This is being contested in the courts and is slowly working up to the SC. We'll have to see what the ultimate outcome is.
Keep silent with indifference. Look them into the eyes. Look at the queue behind you. Let them wait for 5 seconds. Look them into the eyes again and move slowly.
They will be very intimidated, becasue their performance is judged by the speed. Show them that they actually depend on your cooperation more than you depend on them.
Tell them what to do. Ask them to stamp, where to scan and give you stuff that they would give you anyway. Let them feel that you command them like a boss.
If you don't feel a discussion about losing your rights of citizen ship is useful, perhaps you have also missed something else. Generations of our fathers have fought for these rights that politicians have RIPPED from us in the last 12 years.
The original question included:
Like the majority of the population, I turn into an absolute shrinking violet when pressured by intimidating authority
And there it is... see the work of Stanley Milgram. Around half the people in any situation will do whatever they are told, no matter how immoral or vicious, because they are servile. They know the voting machines are evil and corrupt, and they have the ability to smash the voting machines, but they will not do so, because they are cowardly and unable to disobey authority in public.
Free your mind, lose your fear of death, and really live. Stop being an obedient robot, and find a philosophy that will allow you to direct your own actions.
no need to get into trouble
No kidding, the person posting the question seems to have his tinfoil wrapped too tightly. He has a laptop and a smartphone, like that is not an ordinary every day occurrence that draws no interest, except possibly from thieves. The roving teams most likely just want to look in his bag/pack. Nothing looks ilke a block of C4 with a detonator attached, thank you have a nice day.
You completely miss the point. The fourth amendment to the US Constitution guarantees that
The right of the people to be secure in their persons...and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [emphasis mine]
Warrantless street searches clearly violate the spirit and letter of the law.
What about public safety you ask? According to the US government, four times as many people die from lightning strikes every year than from terrorist activities.
By your logic, we should cover the country with a non-conductive dome.
Nature can't be controlled you say? Okay, how about this: the US government estimated that 730 US persons died as a result of terrorism. in 2007
They also report 17,100 murders in the US during the same year.
I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think that we should give up our Fourth amendment protections to stop all the murders. Why then, should we give them up to "fight terrorism."
In any case, I suggest you either grow a brain or stop trolling. Pretty please?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
the natural next move is to knock your door and perform a preemptive random search of your house if you have purchased an airplane ticket, or if you have purchased a bus ticket, or if you have a car, or if you are a pedestrian
If the police, immagration, Feds, Homeland Defense etc, stops you for any reason invoke your miranda rights and demand your attorney. My attorney says if they detain you for ANY KIND of investigation and you invoke your miranda rights legally they can no longer talk to you at all until your attorney is present. Now he also says if they really want to screw with you for doing it they do have the right to detain you, meaning they can handcuff you and take you to jail to wait for your attorney. So it really depends on how bad you want to screw with them for screwing with you, and how much hassell do you want to deal with. If you don't want to deal with a big hassell then go along and put up with their crap and cooperate with whatever they want.
let me get this straight. If you don't submit to a search, you're not allowed to get on a train now? Even though your taxes are used to pay for that public service?
So we have a search with no probable cause or witnesses that I have committed a crime, and taxation without representation . . . . .
If I lived in Boston I think it would be about time to start a riot over this nonsense.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/09/oregon-muslim-on-us-no-fly-list-held-after-sailing-to-britain/1
While not exactly TSA related, more CBP related, there was a gentleman who was on the no fly list, who was in the US. Given he couldnt fly, he took a boat to get back home to europe. Sounds reasonable right? Well, he was removed from the cruise ship prior to the ship arriving in port. You can find more info on the identify projects webpage.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Here's an interesting letter allegedly written by an anonymous DHS lawyer. Summary: DHS knows that the VIPR searches are illegal, and that courts ultimately will not validate TSA's authority to conduct them.
So, if you're a protester-type interested in challenging the constitutionality of VIPR searches in the courts, here's a blueprint for you. If not, I'd just avoid the subway altogether.
FUCK THAT! They have no right to treat people like this. It's criminal and unconstitutional. Travel is a right, NOT a privelege.
You're absolutely correct. You have the right to travel, but those who manage transportation systems have the right to refuse service to you as well.
I suggest walking or bicycling for shorter distances and some sort of powered personal conveyance for longer ones.
While I'm not a huge fan of his Social Darwinistic ideas, Robert Heinlein got it right when he said: "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
Make of that what you will.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
armed vigilante justice? are you sitting on some better form of government that we should all know about?
Vote for Ron Paul. End the TSA
If Ron Paul had been a competent Congressman, TSA would have never been created.
I love it. The "I'm not touching youuuuuu." defence.
"Remember, our Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence knowing that their signatures would be used to justify their execution if they lost the fight for their liberty."
The founding fathers were wealthy land owners. Just saying.
I would be equally upset if they picked me, but there is at least one good thing: safety. 10 years ago I witnessed harassment on the T almost on a daily basis. Crazy, drunks, all kinds of lowlifes. When I think about my feelings back then... it was worse and much more frequent. God this country has problems.
When a nobody (in the opinion of the police) starts making things difficult for corrupt cops they become somebody with a record or somebody with a long list of injuries. Your suggestion to resist above would only work on the sort of police that you wouldn't have to worry about if you complied to anything they said anyway.
Resisting to make a "political statement" only works if you are somebody society really cares deeply about, or if you have a lot of witnesses of high social status AND (the important bit) the people you want to resist don't actually want to hurt you or be seen hurting you.
That's why you often hear about people resisting in groups - lone people making it difficult for less than perfect law enforcement can become nothing but statistics.
You guys have got your Superman and Ghandi all mixed up and are losing touch with reality.
They are trained to get you to waive your rights without realizing it.
From one of my experiences during a traffic stop:
Cop: Please step out of the car.
...after receiving my citation...
Me: I don't wish to step out of the car. Are you giving me a lawful order to do so?
Cop: Do you want to be arrested?
Me: No. I don't wish to leave my car, but I will comply with any lawful order you give me.
Cop: <dejected face>, walks back to process my license & registration
Cop: Are you carrying any weapons or explosives in your vehicle?
Me: Heh, heh, heh. Naaaah.
Cop: Mind if I search?
Me: Why don't you get a warrant? Are we done here?
I realize that police have a tough job, but I lose all sympathy for them when they try to get people to waive their rights via deceit. Most people in these circumstances don't realize that when the cop tacks on a "please" in front of what appears to be an order, they aren't trying to be polite. It officially makes it a request and if you acquiesce you have voluntarily waived your rights in that regard.
Just be calm and don't let them get away with using evasive non-responses (eg. "do you want to be arrested?"). Make it clear you will comply with lawful orders, but they have to explicitly order you to do whatever it is.
WTF!? Yeah I'm anon here but I have to say if you will not submit to a search from an entity designed to combat terrorism at it's base then get the fuck off my airplane, train, bus, whatever the hell form of transportation I've decided to take on that particular day. Go the fuck away or go to another country. We've allowed this to go unchecked in our own country before and it has cost lives.
I suppose you're one of the NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) characters we've read so much about in these last few years, as long as it's not your kids school that get blasted from freaks with assault rifles then all is well and good, but when it happens to you "then someone didn't do enough to stop it!!!!!". Same damn thing applies when the bus you get on is the one that gets blown to shit because some one didn't want to submit to a random search. Goddamnit sometimes you morons piss me off.
Are you actually a clueless jerk, or do you just play one on /.?/p?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Be passive aggressive.
I bet if we all just started saluting to TSA like Hitlers subjects did we'd create such a PR problem for them we might actually get rid of them.
I'm not sure how sensitive to the Jew's that is, but it's got to be better than letting a rampant abuse of power grow and grow.
(I do not understand the tendency of people here to start typing in the subject and then continue in the body)
neither.
we know you just like to play victim and get sympathy and make everyone feel sorry for you.
They learned this from the jew.
WTF!? Yeah I'm anon here but I have to say if you will not submit to a search from an entity designed to combat terrorism at it's base then get the fuck off my airplane, train, bus, whatever the hell form of transportation I've decided to take on that particular day. Go the fuck away or go to another country. We've allowed this to go unchecked in our own country before and it has cost lives.
"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for a little, temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." --Benjamin Franklin, who, I daresay, was a *LOT* smarter than you.
I suppose you're one of the NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) characters we've read so much about in these last few years, as long as it's not your kids school that get blasted from freaks with assault rifles then all is well and good, but when it happens to you "then someone didn't do enough to stop it!!!!!". Same damn thing applies when the bus you get on is the one that gets blown to shit because some one didn't want to submit to a random search.
Then you suppose wrong. Excrement occurs, and sometimes excrement occurs to good people despite all the precautions we take. Get over it. Public transportation is an exercise in risk management. Violating civil rights to reduce the likelihood of an action that is already statistically less likely to occur than getting struck by lightning is just effin' stupid.
Goddamnit sometimes you morons piss me off.
Ditto.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
have the right to refuse service to you as well.
IANAL but in the case of public transport, they have to make a pretty strong case that you are breaking the law or endangering others. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Just because the TSA (and I love the abuse these words get nowadays) "out of an abundance of caution" thinks you are carrying a bomb does not mean that you are carrying a bomb.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Whereas, on the 14th of December, 2011, the House of Representatives of these United States voted, in the form of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, in favor of indefinite military detention, without charges, of American citizens on American soil, without due process of law, at the discretion of the government alone;
Whereas, on the 15th of December, 2011, the Senate of these United States voted in favor of the same bill;
Whereas, on the 31st of December, the President of these United States signed the same bill into law;
Whereas, the proscription against the use of military force to police the populous has been an essential feature of American civic life and civic liberty since the arrival of our civilization upon this continent;
Whereas, the wanton violation of this proscription was one of the chief causes of the separation of the American people from their government in Great Britain;
Whereas, the Constitution so chartering the government of these United States, in Article III Section III, states that “No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.”
Whereas, the Constitution so chartering the government of these United States, in the Fifth Amendment, states that no person shall be “deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”;
Whereas, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the President of these United States have disregarded the plain text of the Constitution;
Whereas, in openly disregarding its founding document, the government of these United States has lost any semblance of legitimacy;
Whereas, the use of such draconian measures has been an essential feature of the enforcement of tyranny by every totalitarian governments of the 20th century;
Whereas, the use of such draconian measures is carefully calculated to quash all political dissent amongst a captive people;
Whereas, the codification of such draconian measures effectively nullifies all civil liberties the people may hope to hold;
And whereas, the codification of such draconian measures is an act of war against the populous at large;
Therefore, be it declared that a STATE OF WAR formally exists between the Government of these United States and the People of these United States, perpetrated by that Government against the People.
We, the People of these United States, declare any and all attempts to enforce the provisions of the NDAA to be unlawful, void, and of no force.
We declare ALL WHO voted in favor of the NDAA, and ALL WHO attempt to enforce the NDAA to be traitors to these United States, punishable under law.
We SHALL DISOBEY, APPREHEND, OR RESIST WITH FORCE, at our discretion, any person who attempts to enforce the provisions of the NDAA.
We SHALL NOT aggress against any Federal, State or local government employee who shall not attempt to enforce or aid and abet the enforcement of the NDAA, they being as trapped as the rest of the populous.
Such STATE OF WAR shall continue until the NDAA is stricken from the code of law, and all who had hand in the NDAA are removed from positions of power.
I've only got 4 guns....
Still, you're mostly right, which is why I'm posting AC.
A coworker of mine gets stopped by TSA goons at T stations all the time. Every time, he politely and firmly tells them "I do not consent to a search". They don't let him on the train, so he just walks to the next T stop and gets on there. (It's very unlikely you'll be stopped at two consecutive stations.) He usually tells the goons he's doing this too, but they've never followed him or radioed ahead, despite often threatening to do so.
TLDR: Say "I don't consent to a search" and go to the next T stop. Optionally tell the goons how stupid there plan is, or don't; we don't need them smartening up.
The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
Like it or not, this is clearly a measure "provided for by law" and also "necessary to protect national security [and] public order". The fact that the measures are unlikely to actually be effective at protecting the public is unlikely to cause a court to rule them a violation.
Just earlier this week Slashdot ran a story to the effect that the government should never regulate technology, because they don't understand any of it. Well, more or less for the same reason, judges tend to give deference to the decisions of government bodies that are (theoretically) experts on the subject. The judge is going to take the word of the government agencies saying "we need to do this to increase security" because hey, they're the ones who spend all their time protecting the public.
As for the US cases you cite, I find nothing in Paul v. Virginia that's even related to this topic. And Corfield v Coryell is a district court ruling, which means it's not precedent. And it isn't in agreement with the actual precedent on the issue of the 14th Amendment (the Slaughterhouse cases) or the right to travel. Gilmore v Gonzales is the case most directly dealing with this issuek, and it's not a Supreme Court ruling but it is binding precedent for part of the country: You don't have the right to any one particular mode of transportation, even if it is far more convenient than any other.
If it were the only available mode of transportation, the constitutionality question would be very different. But in the particular case at issue, you can take a taxi, or a bicycle, or even simply walk.
Wow, I didn't realise you're getting TSA random searches in the USA, shocked!
The search always comes at the inconvenient time so the response is more likely to be to comply.
To change this?
hmm...
how's about dressing up in authoritative dress and instructing the TSA officer to comply with search in exactly the same way as they do?
This is in addition to reducing police departments to show that they are under threat and hopefully fight the corner for us.
Before I lined up for backscatter xray scanners I told myself I would refuse. But when it came down to missing and flight, a load of people around me compling and authority I couldn't do it. I felt terrible, almost like crying, but I couldn't resist the instruction. Just couldn't! Finally I understood the people in Milgrams experiment who couldn't disobey the order to kill their subjects. Like a Nazi with regret I want to go back to correct the error of my ways.
But how can I do so without missing my flight?
A blog I run for the wealth
Only if you are still on public property. I would imagine that inside the station it is not, so you are subject to their rules.
My advice ( not being an attorney ) would be to to politely refuse and ask to be escorted back to public land.
Then give them the bird.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Don't apply on private property.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
n.t
The same thing Obama did about Gitmo. Issue an executive order, get stonewalled by Congress, realize that being president isn't like being king, and give up.
TSA thugs carry guns and clubs. Consider that when making your decision.
>What if a police officer says that I 'must go over there and cooperate'?
In a very meaningful sense, this is the moment that you are under arrest.
I would ask said police officer, "Am I free to leave, or am I under arrest?"
If the answer is "free to leave", walk away. With any other answer, press the matter by remaining silent. If you feel the need to say anything at all, say "at this time I invoke my right to remain silent." You just became a huge hassle for that officer who now must follow through with the process, and will have a lot of explaining to do if he had no justification for arresting you.
Sadly, driving on public roads is deemed a privilege — otherwise you wouldn't need a (government-issued) license to do so. Though you may still be able to walk, even riding a wagon (as ancestors used to do) requires permission of the Executive branch.
And if they don't like you enough, they can withdraw the permission on a whim (without bothering with that pesky Judicial branch).
i have edited and written articles on the VIPR teams, on various information gathering programs (FBI case files, etc), and so forth and so on.
these people running the national security state are essentially engaged in criminal activity. what do criminals fear most? the simple, objective reporting of basic facts about their activities, and the structure of their organizations.
As a professional IT consultant, my experience as "Big Brother" (examining log files with/without the user's knowledge) may provide some insight for you: I would suggest that you just not be guilty of anything at all. Sooner or later, Congress will make progress and these people are going to become legitimate enforcers of the law so it is best to be friends with them now--lest they carry a black book to take down names (or an iPhone).
He can order the TSA to comply with the fourth amendment. That means they don't get to search you unless they're willing to swear under oath that they believe there is probable cause to suspect you of a crime, and a judge agrees.
Wow! That "Ihre Papieren bitte!" joke has become reality! Way to go USA!
If you have to ask, the question you are already dead. I mean like the german jew that thought germany would never send them to the gas chamber.
I am about to receive my second citizenship, and will give up my us citizenship nt because I want to but because I have to. Hopefuly someday the us wil allow me to regain it when I comes to grips with the mistake but I am not willing to gamble my life on it.
Same thing happened to me @ Providence RI train station. I moved to board an MBTA Commuter Rail train back to Boston, and was told I had to pass thru screening first. (Politely, professionally, I might add.) When I decline, I was told I could not board the train.
So I took a seat, in direct view of the screening team, and waited. The next train was an hour later, and the TSA team finished up and left in only about 30. (So as to not totally f* up rush hour, I think). I boarded the next train without incident
He might not be able to eliminate the TSA, but he can determine how it is deployed.
I know RP is a nutjob on many issues, but Liberty trumps them all. So hold your noses and vote for him.
All your concerns about rights and privileges in the United States is moot. The question will soon be what are your privileges under United Nations Agenda 21, implemented in the United States through a series of executive orders since the Congress wouldn't ratify the thing in '96, because you won't have any rights. In fact, over 90% of the world's population will have their privilege of breathing taken away from them to satisfy the Agenda by the end of this century.
Go live in another western country. Pick one, it doesnt matter which, that country will have more civil liberties than you who live in the (laughable) Land Of The Free.
You'd prefer to go without civil liberties?
He would have the power to order them to no longer enforce things and has suggested in the past that this would be his route for certain things. A decent stop-gap measure.
I hate when people post this response on issues about the TSA.
why?
BECAUSE IT IS IRRELEVANT. THE TSA is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY you idiot, this topic is not about private companies in of itself, but the TSA, a GOVERNMENT AGENCY interfering with of your use of that company. .
First off, if you know they are doing such a think, i'd turn around and go to the next subway stop. Theres no reason for them to search you without a warrent on such a mode of transportation. Secondly, if they must look, carry some rather used and squshy undergarments loose in a compartment of your bag. I'd only do this with a bag i dident care about and only when i know they'd be looking. Otherwise your fellow riders may be upset with you. Although, it would virtually guarentee you a seat on the subway. Third, if you dont wish to do that, carry some rather large sex toys, homosexual porn, and related accessories for them to look at. If you can find gay arabic porn all the better.
have the right to refuse service to you as well.
IANAL but in the case of public transport, they have to make a pretty strong case that you are breaking the law or endangering others. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Just because the TSA (and I love the abuse these words get nowadays) "out of an abundance of caution" thinks you are carrying a bomb does not mean that you are carrying a bomb.
I agree. Per the Fourth Amendment, probable cause is required.
My point was (I guess I should have just said this instead, thanks for calling me on that) that while we may have the right to travel, we don't have a right to any particular mode of transportation, except our feet and possibly a bicycle/skateboard/skates, etc.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Errmmm...actually there is a lot that Ron Paul (or any other President) could do providing that he or she actually gave a damn.
First and foremost there's the bully pulpit. The president can sign that executive order and take to the airwaves telling the American people what he is doing and why. Then he can ask them to contact their congressmen and senators if they support him and tell their representatives to either get on board or get voted out.
Secondly there is the power that Obama has assumed for himself not too long ago to declare any American citizen a terrorist and have them executed as enemies of the state. Since I seem to recall the oath of office includes a line in there about defending the constitution against ALL enemies, foreign or domestic that includes nearly everyone of both houses of government for voting the way they have been...
I imagine that would light a fire under some of our elected "representatives" to make a few changes in a rapid manner...
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THE TSA is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY you idiot, this topic is not about private companies in of itself, but the TSA, a GOVERNMENT AGENCY interfering with of your use of that company At the request of (or at least the approval of) that company/agency. .
FTFY
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
It's on a long list of promises that presidential candidates commonly make but which they have zero authority to deliver.
Rewriting tax code? Eliminating federal agencies whose authority derives from legislative rules? Outlawing abortion? Legalizing or criminalizing a drug? If any of these things was an objective of the candidate, he or she would be much closer to that authority by running for Congress, because these are in no way within the authority of the President.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Elect Ron Paul, problem permanently solved within 30 days.
Nobody wants to be the martyr.
This kind of police state activity is why I am currently so behind Ron Paul. Do I necessarily agree with his foreign policy? No. Do I necessarily agree with his monetary policy? No (although I do agree with substantial parts).
But this I do know, out of all the candidates for our next president he is the only one interested in preserving our liberty. As the primaries and subsequent elections come to your state remember that. Everything else is really pretty meaningless in comparison.
This kind of police state activity is why I am currently so behind Ron Paul. Do I necessarily agree with his foreign policy? No. Do I necessarily agree with his monetary policy? No (although I do agree with substantial parts).
But this I do know, out of all the candidates for our next president he is the only one interested in preserving our liberty. As the primaries and subsequent elections come to your state remember that. Everything else is really pretty meaningless in comparison.
Post as non-AC
This kind of police state activity is why I am currently so behind Ron Paul. Do I necessarily agree with his foreign policy? No. Do I necessarily agree with his monetary policy? No (although I do agree with substantial parts).
But this I do know, out of all the candidates for our next president he is the only one interested in preserving our liberty. As the primaries and subsequent elections come to your state remember that. Everything else is really pretty meaningless in comparison.
Post as non-AC
Ron Paul stated rather openly and publicly that he wants the TSA disbanded. I wholeheartedly support this effort as they do absolutely nothing to protect our nation and are an enormous burden to tax payer dollars.
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/11/jesse_ventura_tsa_pat_downs_body_scans_lawsuit_thrown_out.php
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/04/jesse-venturas-tsa-lawsui_n_1075676.html
Lawsuit thrown out because "Federal Court" does not have jurisdiction in cases against TSA. And apparently the ruling took soo long that it cannot even be appealed because the time expired.
Talk about getting stonewalled by the courts. Maybe ask Ventura about the validity of the US constitution in 2012?
(a) In general The Secretary, acting through the Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration, may develop Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (referred to in this section as âoeVIPRâ) teams to augment the security of any mode of transportation at any location within the United States.
So imagine I am out walking with my family. I haven't shaved that day, and I am carrying a backpack full of food and utensils for our picnic. One of these VIPR teams could, conceivably, and within the law, stop me, detain me, and subject my potato salad to a severe interrogation.
Holy feces Batman, we've become the USSR.
Having done quite a bit of flying I can tell you how ineffectual the TSA appear to be. Adding this level of random sampling to the mix, instead of, I dunno, profiling the people most likely to cause this sort of ruckus? Maybe not as much a good idea.
The safest airport I've been in has been Ben Gurion. Didn't have to take off my shoes, or get rid of my liquids either. Same with Heathrow, Schipol, and many others.
I believe now we are throwing away our bill of rights amendments, one by one. And doing so in the name of security theatre. Its ever more important to vote for only strict constructionists who respect the bill of rights, and believe strongly in a smaller government to reign these very wrong actions in.
You must articulacy say you are remaining silent. Just being silent is not the same. The cops questioned a murder suspect for 2 hours as he sat silent. The courts ruled that he must SAY he is remaining silent. I am not a lawyer.
And the TSA isnt required to give you one of those.
and be very PUBLIC about WHY you're doing so ...then, watch - as their owner / operator / industry groups ...strong & hard - to bring REASON back
LOBBY the Gov't
into transport security.
Maybe they'll call for Evidence-Based decision-making:
Only where there's EVIDENCE that it's protectively more ...pick your cause)...
than BULLYING & / or HARASSING of (you name it:
beautiful women, minorities, the meek, other low-hanging-
fruit, etc.
only then... does it get to happen.
If not, transport users get to re-write the TSA rulebook BACK :-)
to the Happy Days of, say, the early 1960's or whenever.
Left to itself, the Gov't is sure to drag us - kicking & screaming
- into some Sci-Fi horror show... in which people live in fear
OF THE SECURITY TEAMS, rather than the "TERRORISTS"
who may come, if the Sec Teams aren't permitted to harass us!
I work for the federal government so I have some experience with this. Usually Congress just writes an bill to fund and give general guidelines. The implementation is up to the bureaucratics in the executive branch. So he couldn't eliminate the TSA but he could do the following.
Put the head of the ACLU in charge of the TSA.
He could also make it a priority to prosecute abuses by TSA officials as a high priority of the FBI.
He could publicly state that he will pardon anyone that is prosecuted for standing up for their civil right.
That's a start.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
This idiot is an example of why arguing with TSA thugs is pointless; they actually bought into the con-job and truly believe they are right in spite of mountains of object evidence to the contrary.
We share the planet with these sea-cucumbers, and because of them, we are all suffering.
The country is rotting away from the coasts. Could buy yourself a few more years of safety before the retardation reaches us here.
if Ask /. was able to get some kind of expert in a relevant field for an Ask /. question and they add that person's input these comments. Probably keep the "expert comment" at the top of the comments. There are good questions posed to this section at times and reading something authoritative would be great.
"To stop the terrorists."
10 print "I would like to go on my way."
20 print "Am I free to go on my way?"
30 goto 10
run
Please line up for your extermination. We have determined that there is no room left on the planet for people of your low intelligence level.
Have gnu, will travel.
You have two options... 1) Do nothing or 2) Do something. So if you guys don't like it, then I suggest that you do the whole democracy thing and influence the situation. Here are a few options:
A) Write letters (lots of cogent, well-written letters) and use your voice to make a positive change in the world. Get your friends, church, and family to write letters. Let those who care about public opinion know what you think. Write opinion pieces for newspapers and others that influence opinion.
B) You can also use your money (through a PAC or another organization) to express your voice.
C) You could also organize a run for office. Influence your friends and community to support you or someone else that supports the positive changes that are needed. Use existing channels / parties, start a new one, or run as an independent.
We have mechanisms as a democracy to handle your grievance. It might seem too much like a Norman Rockwell Painting (http://www.nrm.org/2011/01/norman-rockwell-museum-celebrates-70th-anniversary-of-the-four-freedoms/) but it has worked for more than two centuries here.
What they are searching and the circumstances surrounding it dictate if a warrant is needed. For a house, the answer is almost always. For a person, usually probably cause is good enough for a cursory search.
Address the TSA agents as "Comrade Citizen."
Futurist Traditionalism
You were told. You were warned. Repeatedly.
But SO many of you continued to believe the bullshit. To cry, "Dirty Tin-Foil Conspiracy Theorists!" (and to be fair; they're far from perfect, but among them are those who really do make the attempt to suss out the reality of the situation and not take things at face value. That's the only way to proceed.)
And so, not out of spite, but out of simple logical extension, many of you deserve *exactly* what is coming. To learn this scenario from the inside out.
Maybe in a next life, this experience will resurface as a vital instinctive response. Maybe it already has. Maybe not, and you'll have to do it all over again.
But many don't buy into that idea either. Why not? Because the authorities (education in this case) said not to. And they were believed.
So prepare for the gulags, and hope it happens in the warmer months. Frostbite just adds insult to injury.
Salute them with a nice straight arm Nazi salute while chanting "Seig Heil" repeatedly.
I would highly recommend you view the instructional materials here: http://jeffpolachek.com/freedom/217-how-to-assert-your-rights This will teach you what you need to know to stand up for your rights against government agents who try to violate your rights under "color of law."
It is an interesting fact that in the U.S the surveillance has been growing slowly since the year 2001. Yet, there have not been any clues or confirmed signs that any terrorist attack might be about to take place. This security increase has no clear purpose. Profiling shows that attacks in the U.S mostly happens from domestic sources rather then foreign.
There have been some arrests (see here, http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/02/us-pakistan-usa-arrest-idUSTRE7815M920110902) but nothing post this news has come out of it.
TSA is an sub-division of the NSA, created in the year 2001. As so many other wrong things in the U.S. (See more here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Administration)
What NSA has become is an corrupt and damaged institution inside the U.S. Responsible for erosion of rights of the public in the U.S. They have existed since 1952. But there role was increased and expanded following the terrorist attack in the year 2001. That seems to have been an foothold excuse to increase there role behind there original purpose and work. (See the origin of NSA here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency)
In terms of law. It seems that what TSA is based on weak laws and weak foundations. As they are sub-division of NSA, where they clearly do not belong. Unless TSA is conducting illegal espionage on airports.
In Europe there is no such thing as security check at subways train stations (where I have traveled), or on bus stations. Even if there have been terrorist attacks taking place in few countries in Europe (Spain for an example) few years ago. So what is taking place in the U.S is nothing but an security theater (see here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater).
Anonymous for security reasons. Since I might have to travel to the U.S in next few years.
As a Canadian who travels in the US on occasion, what are my rights if I am stopped by one of these? Anyone have any thoughts on the matter? The thought of randomly being searched makes me want to go back to avoiding travel in the US, as I did during the Bush years.
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
The TSA offers don't care if you want to protest or walk to the next station as long as they can put in for overtime pay for the time they are there.
These security measures are mostly driven by overtime pay for public safety staff. Without that overtime pay, the security nonsense would fade away. It's really just about the money.
If Ron Paul had been a competent Congressman, TSA would have never been created.
What you should say is that if most of us elected representatives to Congress as competent as Ron Paul the TSA would never have been created.
...because I am quite sure that I will never visit the USA again. Ever.
Any country that can so descend into hysteria as to pass laws of the kind discussed here, I refuse to support with my money or skills.
It's that simple. If enough people refuse to deal with the United States, it will quickly become a banana republic. (It's already well on the way - seen your balance of payments lately? The USA owes the rest of the world over $100,000 per man, woman, and child that live there. Why should we continue to support your habit?)
Well first off, not everyone agrees on what the 'liberties' are, other countries do very well with different sets of liberties, so sure, some of them are certainly inappropriate, or at least inconsistent and unclear.
Does the right of free speech extend to collections of people, or just individuals, what (if any) constraints apply to those groups of people? (I.e. can corporations make unlimited campaign contributions, can political parties make themselves into profit making entities in some other business to fund their political activities and so on).
WTF does the right to bear arms mean? Should it only apply to a militia (if so, how do you define a militia, is such a construct even suitable in this day and age?), if it's a personal right, when was it a personal right, was it always? Is that even a good idea? If it was always a personal right, or more accurately, if it has been interpreted to apply to a personal right, was that the intent, and does the intent even matter since the nutters who wrote that part have been dead for 200 years and had no concept of what modern 'arms' might be. If it wasn't interpreted that way before but is now, is that not in effect changing what the liberty is, and do you really want that change? Who should decide that (and how)?
Government necessarily evolves over time. You can agree or disagree with every peace of how it evolves, but trying to run a government like it's 1790 as Ron Paul would have you do would basically turn you into all of those failed, or failing states who've been trying to dig themselves out of the gutter since they were decolonized.
It's a bully pulpit. You want someone in there preaching that the feral govt can rape everyone?
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
If they can restrict you from using public transportation, why can't they restrict you from using a car? A bicycle? Shoes? Feet? You can still crawl, it's not like they're actually restricting your freedom of movement.
Move to Canada. We would love to have you - and we don't put up with that kind of bullshit here. You Americans are too willing to put up with such bullshit.
I think the question to ask the TSA folks is "Am I being detained, if so for what?" Otherwise I'll be on my way.
Now we just need a Rosa Parks type and a camera crew to viral video this issue.
For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. - Publius
zing!
Vote for Ron Paul, return the U.S. to the 1940's. Or even earlier.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Exactly. You people don't have to *fight* for your rights. You live in a freakin' republic. All you lazy bastards have to do is *vote* for your rights! And you don't! I wash my hands of it.
YOU are everything wrong with people in this country. YOU are as much responsible for the way things are as are the bastards who are actively working to destroy this country because YOU and your apathetic, me-first, don't-give-a-fuck-about-anyone-but-me attitude is EXACTLY what they want all of us to do: NOTHING. Why don't you go shoot yourself in the head, it'll be the best contribution to mankind you could possibly make!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Then you have to protest in other ways: Carpet-bomb your congressmen with letters, make sure they KNOW that you aren't going along with this, that it's WRONG, and that it MUST change. Sitting on your ass doing nothing is the same thing as giving your approval.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
False dilemma. That is already the case now, it would simply be a case of applying the law as it stands now to Congress itself. Strange though, how all these laws the politicians pass seem to come with exemptions for themselves...
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You have a few choices: You can be a pussy and let evil men roll right over you, make you a slave, and they'll treat you like cattle, or you can get off your ass and DO something. You and most people have been indoctrinated to believe that there is NOTHING you can do, that all authority is right, you're wrong, and that Bad Things will happen if you complain. That's all BULLSHIT. Write letters. Make phone calls. TALK to other people about it, INFORM people who don't know what's going on, make them UNDERSTAND how it will affect their own lives, urge THEM to write letters, make phone calls, and talk to other people about it, too, because this is what the bastards DON'T want: people being informed and educated. They want us ignorant and stupid, because people are more easily controlled that way!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
How about Free Speech Zones?
They put you in a chain link fence box a couple of miles away from whatever it is you happen to be protesting, so politicians don't see anything that might upset them.
Got news for ya. We're in the declining days of our Republic. A lot of the great ideas the founding fathers had at the beginning are pretty much gone now.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Or re-elect Obama, and return to the 1930s, but in the wrong country?
Tough choice. Truly.
Obama doesn't give up, he just illegally(or not) circumvents Congress and rules by his fiat, which are executive orders. He'd love no more than to be a dictator.
and be very PUBLIC about WHY you're doing so ...then, watch - as their owner / operator / industry groups ...strong & hard - to bring REASON back
LOBBY the Gov't
into transport security.
Demand that the police come and drag your ass away, which they will do without a second thought, on some bullshit "disturbing the peace" charge or something.
I think the song idea is the best. Make up the best possible sarcastic lyrics. Publicize it widely. Get donations to pay for advertising it. Have hand bills ready to hand out with the lyrics for everyone to carry. Everyone practice, sometimes even if the TSA is not around. Each time confronted start singing loudly until other passengers join in. Make the TSA the laughingstock of the MTA.
Look at the unanimity here. There is so much public support for such direct action it should be easy to organize. Much easier than the Occupy protests.
Some of us wish Obama would realize the President isn't King.
Paul is an isolationist, that's the problem.
Saying "Let's stop invading random countries and trying to run the world" is not isolationism. It's being a good neighbor. You ever live next to someone who's poking their nose into your business all the time, criticizing everything you do, threatening to call the police because you didn't shovel the snow properly, etc.? Everyone hates those people. Yet somehow, some people seem to think it's good foreign policy.
One of the things I like about Ron Paul (and believe me, there's plenty I don't like) is that he believes we need to get our nose out of other people's business.
Pulling out of the UN seems like a bit much to me, especially since almost all the UN ever does is talk and pass powerless resolutions. Like I said, I don't agree with all of RP's ideas.
like trying to recolonize iraq.
Yah, see, that's one of the things RP is against.
Most US military spending is domestic, it's a giant jobs programme. Nothing more. There are more efficient ways to accomplish that, but the net effect is money for US things.
Military operations are a horrible way to boost an economy. They siphon a lot of resources away from building useful long-term infrastructure, and the end up sending a lot of resources overseas to where the battle is. Those resources don't come back. It's like a trade deficit, except with more dead people.
... you're saying you'd be better off without the bailouts that saved a few million jobs and prevented your economy from going into a tailspin ...
It can be argued that we would have been better off letting unhealthy, poorly-run companies which screwed over the entire country die off, yes. Especially since it was largely government meddling which set-up the economic collapse in the first place. The more we prop it up, the harder it will fall.
because oh no, they added to the budget deficit (which, by the way, you mostly owe yourselves
Printing more money without regard to resources is classic inflation. It devalues the currency. Everyone who does it hurts themselves. Everyone who has done it a lot has ruined their economy. See Hyperinflation for plenty of case studies.
Did you live through the US government shuts downs of the 90's?
If we don't stop deficit spending, our economy is going to collapse completely, and those shutdowns will look like a bank holiday in comparison.
You cannot keep spending resources you don't have. This is more than just a law of economics, it's a law of thermodynamics. It is probably the single most fundamental concept in the known universe.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
What's the Best Way To Deal With Roving TSA Teams?
Vote Ron Paul
Liberty.
Demand a warrent. Regardless inform them that they are not a peace officer and do not have any rights or protections under the law. You can sue them any individual that touches you. Any law they might sight is null and void because it is not constitutional.
Since the TSA is part of the DHS it is part of the executive branch. Congress authorized its creation and mandated it to do certain things but a sitting president could absolutely decline to have it do any of those things or shut it down on constitutional grounds and Congress would have no power to implement it unilaterally. Indeed it should be argued that his oath of office would obligate him to refuse to implement unconstitutional legislation.
Never said there were ANY good candidates. Obama has proven to be a complete traitor by signing the NDAA. Most congresscritters are also proving to be traitors to their country by drafting and voting for legislation like it. The neo-conservatives and the dominionists are intent on not only destroying this country, but destroying the middle class, creating an uncrossable gulf betwee the rich and the poor, and more or less bringing back feudalism. The two-party system has got such a lock on everything that voting for a likely 3rd-party candidate is essentially throwing your vote away. I am at a loss for what to do, other than to raise my voice, protest what is unjust, and talk to as many people as I can so they understand what's going on, how it's going to affect them and their families, and try to get them to do the same.
But who to vote for this year? No fucking clue. In the end, we may have to back Obama for a second term, simply because handing the country over to the Republicans is guaranteeing that the U.S. we used to know will never exist again -- and there is a slightly smaller chance of that with Obama, and as previously stated no other viable options in sight. Seriously: You want Santorum? From what I hear he'd turn back the clock at least 50 years (if not further!) on civil rights alone; we'd likely have blacks forced to ride in the back of the bus again and limited to only certain water fountains. You want Romney? Seriously: You want the U.S. to become Mormonland? No, all the GOP candidates are Bringers of the Apocalypse. Obama may suck ass, but there's always a chance he won't turn the Earth into a smoldering cinder.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
So they're worried that terrorists will take over a train and crash it into the Hancock Tower or the Prudential Building?
I'd throw it at his head. Watch out for the shock baton tho.
First of all, I doubt whatever you might have on your laptop, smartphone, tablet or whatever will have much to do with anything that could potentially disrupt transportation, much less be a threat to national security. I would check your state laws to determine exactly what your rights are. In most states, you MUST surrender identification if asked, but you are NOT required to answer any questions posed to you by law enforcement, much less TSA agents. Keep in mind, however, that if you give them a hard time, chances are they will give you a hard time too. Moving on, while you are not obligated to answer questions, neither are you obligated to stay and talk to them if they are not detaining you. Ensure that they aren't, however: ask, "Am I being detained?" If the answer is no, then reply: "Since I am not being detained, I am exercising my freedom to go" and do so quietly and respectfully.
If you ARE detained, remember, you are not obligated to answer questions, and neither are you obligated to consent to a search of your person or your belongings. If you are arrested, that is a different story. Some law enforcement try to abuse their authority though and make up some story about reasonable suspicion or somesuch. If you are searched, DO NOT RESIST, but DO state "I do not consent to being searched".
Again, I highly recommend you consult the laws governing civil rights in your particular state. When you hold someone to the law, and that someone is wearing a badge, chances are they won't be too happy that you're the one calling the shots, not them...so expect to be hassled a little more if you do so. Remember, never be disrespectful, keep your cool, but don't let your rights be ignored.
My first association: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMgBA8CZq2s at 1:50
Saying "Let's stop invading random countries and trying to run the world" is not isolationism. It's being a good neighbor. You ever live next to someone who's poking their nose into your business all the time, criticizing everything you do, threatening to call the police because you didn't shovel the snow properly, etc.? Everyone hates those people. Yet somehow, some people seem to think it's good foreign policy.
You didn't invade random countries lately. Iraq (Gulf war 1). Very very clear reason: they attacked Kuwait. An independent state that couldn't defend itself. Allowing that precedent would have been a disaster.
Afghanistan: Harbouring terrorists who attacked you, again. Seems obvious enough.
Iraq2. As I say, if they actually had WMD, an invasion would have been warranted. Treaties either mean something, or they don't. If iraq was violating the treaty, it was time to do something about it.
Look at the last 70 years of the US and britain. How did you pay of debt from WW2? You didn't. You grew out of it. Literally, run a balanced budget for a decade with 3% per capita economic growth and 2% population growth and suddenly your deficit looks a lot less interesting. Again, you owe the money to yourselves, so you can tax yourselves to pay it back. It's not hyperinflation. It's very small gradual inflation, along with growing the economy that you want. Hyperinflation is the inflamatory nutter case of how this could play out if you decide to go crazy. All evidence suggests that the people who are making the decisions understand perfectly that 2-3% a year inflation is not a problem, and goes a long way to solving the actual problem.
Actually, the money exists. That's where you get it from. You either borrow it at next to nothing interest rates, or tax it, or both (borrow back from china, tax from the US), although the current plan is to borrow it from both rich people in the US, and in china. But either way. The goal is to get the money flowing in the economy to spur growth. I'm not saying the US is doing that, although the stimulus/bailouts was a half assed effort towards it. Government economics is not like household economics. You're borrowing money from yourselves which you can tax from yourselves, because people aren't spending it, and it needs to be spent to keep the economy flowing.
Again, you have the resources in the country. They're just not being allocated in a way that will help much. The government can (and should) be taking steps to fix that. Borrowing the money isn't a great plan when you could tax the same money, but the scale of the problem means that borrowing isn't a bad plan for some of it, especially with interest rates basically being zero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09Ha5M82us
— James Madison, speech at the Constitutional Convention, June 29, 1787
— General Douglas MacArthur (1880-1964); source: Whan, ed. "A Soldier Speaks: Public Papers and Speeches of General of the Army Douglas MacArthur," (1965); Nation, August 17, 1957.
— H. L. Mencken
— Abraham Lincoln
— Edward R. Murrow
— Charles Eliot Norton
— Helen Keller
— US Special Forces Foreign Internal Defense Tactics Techniques and Procedures for Special Forces, FM 31.20-3 (2003), WikiLeaks
— Dr. Joseph Mengele
It's real, folks. PsyOps is a mature applied behavioral science.
Or, as Pogo might have said, "We have met the enemy and he i
we don't have a right to any particular mode of transportation
You have the right to every possible mode of transportation including ones that haven't even been invented yet, unless a law bars you from it. America started doing it wrong with the "Bill of Rights", and somehow you have gotten it into your heads that you need laws to grant you rights. No, laws take things away. They never give things - except to the government. By default you have the right to absolutely everything except what law prohibits you from doing. Even your "Bill of Rights" is a mistake because now you have lawyers and politicians arguing and nit-picking over words, trying to twist the meaning of those words to take things away from you. At one point it will have been better had it not been written because that same "Bill of Rights" will be used to enslave you. And if not, then there's always international law.
On the other hand there ARE laws that prevent the owner of the mode of transport from barring you from using it on the basis of color, religion, sex, etc. In the case of public transport the vehicle is designed to be used by the public, which includes you.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The best way to deal with the TSA is to contribute money to a civil-liberties organization such as EPIC. I would say "the ACLU" but these days they are only picking battles they think they can win. The ACLU is focused on gay high school kids being able to take a same-sex date to the prom instead of bigger issues such as two American citizens being assassinated, thousands detained without cause, and hundreds of millions being shaken down every time they try to travel within their own country.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
I empathize with this person, however, it is sadly a sign of the times. I imagine a world where we are no longer afraid that religious zealots will strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowded marketplace, fly airplanes into buildings, or murder physicians for performing legal abortions on women wishing to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Peace.
Just smile and wave boys... smile and wave!
...You are over-qualified and under-paid. If we give you a raise, we will break the cosmic balance of the universe.
I'm working on it.
I'm European. I work at sea in Europe.
My job is a very addictive lifestyle. I would prefer a business due to exactly this kind of issue, but I know this is a change I can't do alone without a massive drop in happiness.
However, as a start I thought I could use other modes of transport on my personal time.
Let me share this with anyone who is interested in this.
I wanted to visit someone in South America so I looked at shipping routes and I did find a company designed for people who want to travel by sea. I am familiar with not being allowed off a ship in port, unable to buy a newspaper, but I also know that this varies by country more so there's a chance this can be much more humane. By the way, I have to hand my passport to the captain and he is, in many ways, king... but somehow this seems to... well, work very well...
I forget the name of the company but it is possible to travel by boat. Unfortunately the price was designed in a premium way, more like cruise accomodation tagged onto merchant shipping. It was ~1/3rd more expensive than flying.
- might there be cheaper similar schemes? Has anyone here approached a shipping company?
Next up, private aircraft.
If you're rich enough you can bypass most of the screening with a private jet. It's similar with light aviation, though it's under attack all the time. There's regulation, but check it out.
Overnight buses.
In south america you have overnight buses with chairs that convert into beds. Look for this locally because sleeping through journeys is a great way to do it. You get random searches sometimes but it's more traditional.
As a semi-constant traveler I write about this kind of thing on my blog.
A blog I run for the wealth
than having my junk touched by the TSA.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I find the entire thing quite amusing. I'm likely to ask for a happy ending as it may be the only action I get for a while.
I work by that T stop, I have taken it home every night for the last two years. I have been asked once to open my bag by Boston PD. They looked at it, swabbed it, and that was it - took all of 90 seconds. My commute wasn't delayed, my rights weren't violated.
I don't have anything to hide...and I carry a laptop and an iphone like most of you other nerds...but I am also white and wear a Rolex so...what was the problem again? Someone might see your anime porn or box of oreos?
I have once or twice alerted the cops down there about the crazy homeless guy screaming at the folks in 7-11 and someone passed out on the street to which they called an ambulance for.
Not everything has to be an affront to your rights...which were won by war and bloodshed many many years ago. And no, I'm not some republican yokel, or a Ron Paul supporter, just someone who isn't bothered by this. My dad grew up in Europe in Italy under Nazi occupation, and you bunch of nerds want to compare looking in your man purse to killing people? Nice. Whats next? Saying lack of Halo 4 limits your right to free expression?
OccupyMyAnus!
they won't let you ride and it looks like you're up to something. people should start tweeting the TSA location, and try to avoid those stations.
with his anti-"soft on crime" doctrine and the War On Drugs (Prohibition reborn). The latter turned inner cities into war zones while largely turning a blind eye to drugs in the suburbs.
9/11 just accelerated the thirst for punishment.
I miss the days when /. provided useful information, not just snark and teenage fantasy.
Days? There was more than one day when that happened? Must have been before I got here in Oct. '98.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
1. soap
2. ballot
3. jury
4. ammo
Unfortunatly it seems like the early ones aren't working all that well.
Time to offend someone
Where did it go? Will it ever come back?
I have dealt with and documented the American Neo-Gestapo the DHS many times here, from my being pulled into secondary at the DHS highway checkpoints to witnessing a pack of ICE agents jump out of unmarked vehicles and swarm a 12 year-old kid for jaywalking in front of them.
Liar
Good point. Here's another: The difficulty Ron Paul would have doing that applies also to the difficulty he would have implementing some of the other things "crazy" enough to keep people from voting for him. This would serve to moderate his actions (just like the Framers planned) and make him an even better choice for President.
The powers "granted" the President under Bush's bastardized War Powers Act should be re-examined and rolled back a good bit as well.
Pussy.
Everyone needs to stand up for their civil rights, or no will have any civil rights anymore. The TSA thinks they're above the law, above the Bill of Rights, and they have to be proven wrong. That, and the TSA needs to be dismantled. If they're "expanding" into non-airport-related areas (train stations, bus stations, docks), how long does anyone think it'll be before they start performing traffic stops at random and committing search-and-seizure without a warrant "because they thought you acted/looked/smelled like a terrorist"?
Too many people have shown courage and suffered to defend the rights of people who no longer deserve them. The freedom loving people of the US should vote with their feet, and let rest rot in the hell they have created.
No one's freedom of movement is being restricted, only the methods that they use to move.
Right! Just like me--the guy who isn't allowed to drive, not because of drunk driving, or reckless driving, or accidents. (Never been guilty of any of the above.) It's for what basically amounts to nothing more than "because we say so." This is because I am not even allowed to have a hearing to determine if I should have a license; no, it's predetermined by the computer system, and I can't challenge or protest it unless I sue the fucking state. Which I can't afford, and which doesn't guarantee anything will change anyway.
Well hell....when you live in Alabama, out in the country....what choice do you HAVE but to drive? There is no choice. But they're not restricting my freedom of movement! Only the methods I use to move. Right? So I'm still "free" to hire some stranger to live with me and drive me everywhere.
Benjamin Franklin said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Yes, that was said way back in a time when the country was under an oppresive regime, but maybe thats the case for this time too.
Put in other way, maybe you, or who you care about, can live with things as bad as they are right now. And in a not so distant future? Even a change of president and party didnt improved the previous situation, the trend continued and got worse. Promising that they will change things (as everyone from now on will say) seems that have no effect, people believe, vote, and get fooled.
I don't know if it's an option, but if people just quit using the subway and drove to work or took a bus maybe they would get the message?
that is not an ordinary every day occurrence that draws no interest, except possibly from thieves.
But you have read about the TSA thievery of electronic equipment?
You could turn it into an opportunity for organizing. Say, loud
enough for other passengers to hear, "You are working for the people
that hate our freedoms. You are not protecting us, you are the
threat. Your job is to make Americans scared so we will give up our
freedom without a fight. But we the American people will overcome
you. If you are a patriot you should quit your job."
The idea isn't that you convince the cops, it's to wake up the other
passengers.
Be prepared with responses to the usual fallacious arguments of the
other side, and if the cop spoke quietly, your response needs to tell
passersby what the issue is as well as respond to it.
You can read more about the GNU project at http://www.gnu.org/.
we don't have a right to any particular mode of transportation
You have the right to every possible mode of transportation including ones that haven't even been invented yet, unless a law bars you from it. America started doing it wrong with the "Bill of Rights", and somehow you have gotten it into your heads that you need laws to grant you rights. No, laws take things away. They never give things - except to the government. By default you have the right to absolutely everything except what law prohibits you from doing. Even your "Bill of Rights" is a mistake because now you have lawyers and politicians arguing and nit-picking over words, trying to twist the meaning of those words to take things away from you. At one point it will have been better had it not been written because that same "Bill of Rights" will be used to enslave you. And if not, then there's always international law.
On the other hand there ARE laws that prevent the owner of the mode of transport from barring you from using it on the basis of color, religion, sex, etc. In the case of public transport the vehicle is designed to be used by the public, which includes you.
I hate to break it to you, but you have no "right" to jump on my back and ride me like a pony. You have no "right" to appropriate the conveyances of others and use them at your discretion without express authorization.
As for the law, international or otherwise, "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.." --Robert Heinlein
What about you?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
I was entering the MBTA T station at Porter square about two weeks ago, and was accosted by a Massachusetts State Policeman. He politely told me that I was "selected" for a search.
me: "And what does this search entail?"
him: "We swab the outside of your bag and look for explosive residues".
me: "And if I decline?"
him: "You'll have to leave the station."
me: [looking up thru the skylights at the nice day outside]
me: "It's a beautiful day. Thank you officer, I think I'll walk."
him: "Have a nice day."
me: "You too."
..... and I turned, went up the escalators, and out of the station.
No problems, nobody followed me, shouted to me, nothing.
And no Gitmo team either.
I'd say, by demonstration and experiment, you can just decline
and walk out without any repercussions besides having to walk
to the next T station, which is usually about a 15 minute
walk away (worst case: catch a cab).
At least the supreme court has held that declining a search on
public property is not cause for arrest nor for a search.
Some of us have a job that may suffer if we are detained, have no resources to fight things in court (for months and months) and do not want to go to jail to make a point.
And that's exactly why you're a fucking coward.
You think WE (the people being actively screwed over today) don't have anything to lose?? You think WE enjoy losing our jobs, being dragged through the court systems, and put in prison, all because you're too much of a goddamn pussy to raise up your pathetic little voice and say "hey! stop. that's WRONG"???
I suggest walking or bicycling for shorter distances and some sort of powered personal conveyance for longer ones.
Except "they" can take that away too, by withholding a fucking scrap of paper.
While I'm not a huge fan of his Social Darwinistic ideas, Robert Heinlein got it right when he said: "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
Agreed.
Bro, the TSA is part of DHS which is now a huge part of the executive branch. If he was elected he could fire every one of the assholes.
"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Fuck you.
I'm going to assume you're a U.S. citizen: Your solution is to walk away from the country of your birth and let the fucking fascists take over? Great solution. Where do you plan to go? Do you REALLY think it's going to be better anywhere else?
If you're not willing to fight in one capacity for the country you were born in, then by all means get the fuck out because you're useless and I don't want you here. I guess the manner of your comment posting tells it all: Anonymous COWARD.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
in the long run destiny is personal. cops are not needed here.
And so you must expect every law to be abused against you.
Progressives want big government. Sorry, that produces oligarchy every time, rule by the 0.1%.
Minimum government is the only form of stable government. There are no stable Progressive governments, because the dynamic of 'money buys power' + 'people look out for themselves first' inevitably produces an oligarchy, which inevitably crashes itself.
Defend the Constitution!
Ooops too late. Still you can play with you shiny toys and the Government knows you will do nothin' to stop them.
Now there is nothing left to hate.
I'd like to know the name of the tiny penis'd little man who came up with the name "VIPR Teams"?
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
I think one of the biggest misconceptions is people believe that TSA agents are law enforcement officers. They are not. They are armed Mall Security guards. That's it. If I roll into a "checkpoint" or some other area and there is no cop backing the TSA up, I plan to tell them to honestly go F themselves for the most part. At the airports I can't do anything but outside, I think its a free for all. This has never happened to me yet but if it ever does I'll report back.
You have even less rights than european citizens living in old europe
Wha? Erm; I live in Germany, and last time I checked the degree of social freedom was very agreeable indeed. I suggest you take a look at the German constitution. Bear in mind that, more than the American one, the German constitution is still well supported by the courts, both in its letter and spirit.
Germans, after all, have seen what lies at the end of the road that the US is sleepwalking down. I refer, of course, to the Stasi.
First thing would be to ascertain that these people are really TSA agents. What happens if local cops are with them? OK
As for the law, international or otherwise, "I am free, no matter what rules surround me.
No, what you don't seem to get is you are only as free as those in power are willing to tolerate you to be. The minute your freedom becomes a problem it's just a matter of hiring/bribing/indoctrinating/terrorising goons into taking your freedom or your life from you. That's what power is. But on the bright side, the absolute worst thing they can do is take your life from you and that's going to happen sooner or later anyway. None of it matters on this pale blue dot. Enjoy what you can out of life while you can.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I am not a lawyer but I'm pretty familiar with the arguments because of free assembly lawsuits involving unpermitted "Rainbow Family" Gatherings of tens of thousands of people on Forest Service land. If you sign a permit you are acting as if your rights are a privilege, requiring permission and subject to denial. You don't need permission to exercise your rights.
At least all those defrocked Catholic priests can still have a job they enjoy doing...
Occupy Boston has been working out of the Community Church adjacent Copley Square...
http://www.occupyboston.org/2012/01/01/sending-out-2011-occupy/
Let me tell you the story
Of a man named Charlie
On a tragic and fateful day
He put ten cents in his pocket,
Kissed his wife and family
Went to ride on the MTA
Charlie handed in his dime
At the Kendall Square Station
And he changed for Jamaica Plain
When he got there the conductor told him,
"One more nickel."
Charlie could not get off that train.
Chorus:
Did he ever return,
No he never returned
And his fate is still unlearn'd
He may ride forever
'neath the streets of Boston
He's the man who never returned.
Now all night long
Charlie rides through the tunnels
the station
Saying, "What will become of me?
Crying
How can I afford to see
My sister in Chelsea
Or my cousin in Roxbury?"
Get rid of career politicians. The founding fathers never wanted them, and the people obviously cannot control them.
If you restrict primary offices to single term limits, I believe that it'll get the ball rolling.
At this point, I'd personally welcome a little more chaos if it gave us a better tomorrow.
vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
... is this: How long is "for now"?
9/11 was more than ten years ago. Nothing has happened that warrants heightened security measures, yet the TSA and other authorities get increasingly more rights (reducing your rights, by effect) by the month. Are we missing something here? Is it that Washington knows/believes something is going to hit the fan soon that the rest of the world doesn't see?
Seeing that some are labelling the Occupy Movement "terrorists", it might just be that they wan't the population properly restrained and controlled once the irritation about they're irresponsible politics starts building up. I'm probably just paranoid about that, but what other reason could they possibly have?
handing the country over to the Republicans is guaranteeing that the U.S. we used to know will never exist again -- and there is a slightly smaller chance of that with Obama
Obama may suck ass, but there's always a chance he won't turn the Earth into a smoldering cinder.
Wrong. Obama is the one who DID this. There is NO chance that he will make things better, since he's clearly out to make Bush II look like Jimmy Fuckin' Carter. So there is NO hope to be had there.
If you're right about the republicans and aren't just playing stupid partisan bullshit, then guess what: the battle is already lost.
So, attacks against the Constitution would be grounds for stripping a Congressperson of his or her nationality.
They've lost their sense of irony, as well.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
No one's freedom of movement is being restricted, only the methods that they use to move. Like was said above, the letter of the law is upheld even if the spirit is not.
If you are forbidden to get to, say LA in two hours, only allowed to reach that city in 8 hours by train, then yes, it does restrict your freedom of movement. By your logic, if you are only allowed to crawl around without being subjected to a search, that too wouldn't restrict your freedom of movement, since you still can crawl to any destination you like. I would say, that the letter of the law isn't really upheld as well.
...Says the Anonymous Coward.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
Wow, the Obama apologists are out in force today, I can't believe you were modded up to +5 Insightful.
http://www.salon.com/2011/04/25/obama_guantanamo_rhetoric/
excerpt below:
March 2011:
The president goes back on his campaign pledge completely. He signs an executive order to create a formal system of indefinite detention for the captives still kept at the Cuban facility. The order applies to around 48 of 172 prisoners currently held. The detention center — illustrated to be oppressive and reliant on haphazard methods by the freshly released documents — is now enshrined as playing a continuing role in U.S. policy.
Most notably, a promise to close the facility does even not accompany his announcement of the executive order. Here is his March statement in its entirety:
. . . (cf. original article in link above)
Little wonder then, that Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union told the Washington Post, “It is virtually impossible to imagine how one closes Guantanamo in light of this executive order In a little over two years, the Obama administration has done a complete about-face.”
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If it's a choice between Obama again and any Republican, guess what? WE HAVE NO CHOICE. Third-party candidates are essentially throwing your vote away. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT ME OR ANYONE ELSE TO DO!?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
You live in America, you idiot. Of course you don't have rights.
That was my point. But if you think we have any chance with Obama because of the ridiculous shit you posted about the republican candidates, then you're not part of the solution, whatever it is, anyway.
Obama is a known quantity now, and he's not even pretending to not be "evil" anymore. If there is ANY hope (and, like you, I doubt that there is), it would have to come from the republican side.
Get in a car and drive to where you are going. If you have to fly, ship your items to your destination and fly with just a bag of quickly inspectable items. The reason no lawmaker cares is that they all fly private with carry-on rocket launchers.
Technically, that's right. I would say that an amendment is needed to clarify the freedom of movement issue with regard to modes of transportation. It's been too long since we've had an amendment. I think it's time to update the letter of the law for today's world to match the spirit in which it was drafted.
I appreciate everyone questioning my intelligence, but I'm only playing the devil's advocate here.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
no need to say more
Just because a rule is signed into law, does not make it a law. It must also comply with the Constitution--if not, it's not a law.
Neither Congress nor the President is required to know anything about the Constitution--yet they make laws.
Since they are ignorant, they often make illegal 'un-laws.'
If all laws were vetted for Constitutionality by the Justice department after they are passed and signed but before they go into effect, a great many injustices would be prevented.
It is my belief that this should be required as it can protect the people from illigal 'laws' which the current system permits to be applied to the people and then taken to court and proven unconstitutional. Since this is not a quick process, millions of people can (and are) subjected to illegal laws, losing things ranging from small amounts of time to death. No action taken by the courts after application can restore these people and make them whole.
But one simple procedural change can prevent these injustices completely.
Since the government is required to protect the people, this should be done as it is an easy way to prevent injury to the people and expense to the State.
So far as I can find, this only requires a change in procedure, not a major revision of the law or Constitution as the judicial system is already charged with protecting the Constitution.
As a bonus, it provides a metric for Congress and the President to track the number of times each member promotes or votes for an illegal law. Currently, the Congress and President who promulgate such a law may be dead or out of office by the time the laws is found unconstitutional.
We as a people should petition our government to implement this procedural change to protect the innocent from illegal acts performed by the government. (Illegal acts performed by citizens are bad enough, but if they can be prevented, there is absolutely no excuse for the government to commit illegal acts.
There used to be a middle... it's a little left of where Obama stands.
I hate the I'm in the middle argument... think intelligently and think independently and screw the parties altogether. In the middle suggests there's some sort of a line that you can't leave. Take the high road or the low road. This road those assholes are standing on seems to have major traffic problems. It's funny... we insult people for thinking too one dimensionally, it's time to start insulting people for not getting into the 3D age.
The U.S. really needs a socialist, a laborers party and a conservative party. Currently all they have are two parties representing the corporations and neither of them are worth a damn. The Tea Party... well that's just funny as hell. The Tea Baggers aren't even running their own ticket, they're trying to use the republican ticket instead.
Right now, I am praying that Melinda Gates comes out and puts her name on the ballot as an independent. I would gladly contribute to her campaign. Between her husband's political connections and her fantastic work at the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, I sincerely believe she can probably accomplish a great deal more in Washington than anyone else. It's also pretty damn hard to bully someone like her around. She's in a position where the decisions she makes can be made because she believes them to be the right thing to do. If anyone opposes her or tries to earmark her to death, she can crush them in the media.
We don't need another asshole politician as president. We need someone who has the balls to do what he or she things is right and then to kick the shit out of the opposition that wants to play politics over it. Someone needs to say "Either back the bill, get the hell out of my office and oppose me at your own peril or try to convince me that what I'm doing is morally or ethically wrong. If you block it purely on the grounds that I refused your earmarks, I'll destroy you."
That's where Obama screwed up. His health bill got earmarked so badly that its original purpose got altered in to "It's still called a health bill and it has some stuff in it, but they're all doomed to fail because the glue to hold it together is gone." but it's covered with earmarks with special interests... not just from republicans, but from his fellow democrats as well. Then there was the new deal... that was 10 times worse... with that one, they wrote the bill, passed it to the opposition and said "do with it what you will, we have to pass this" and they did... and when it got back, it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. The man is such an utter weakling that not only was his first term thoroughly useless, but it was damaging because now if someone says "Socialized Medicine", the opposition will laugh and say "Yeh, we tried that already... stupid idea, doesn't work".
It really doesn't matter who you vote for in the primaries for the democrats or the republicans... the only type of people that can even get their names on the ballot are precisely the people we shouldn't be voting for in the first place. If you doubt that.. just look at who's on there now. The last time around, Obama was about as good as anyone else. They were all shit.
I would only support him over Obama if I could support him high enough that when I dropped him, it would take them both out!
What about Al Franken? All things considered, this past few years, he seems to be the only guy in Washington actually trying to do the right thing.
Why the hell isn't he running for president this time around? I'd contribute to his campaign
Once they're in the office, they don't really have anything requiring them to follow through on promises or even to listen to the people who elected them. The only responsibility a politician has from the day he first steps into office is lining up his next job.
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The best recourse you have is in a well written typed point by point notice to the agent themselves citing numerous provisions of constitutional law and clearly stipulating to the agents sections of American Jurisprudence that will inform him that he/she can and will be held individually liable for any violations of your constitutionally secured rights pursuant to Supreme Court Case law xxxx vs. xxxx
Secondly If before hand you happen to be friends with a police officer who is sympathetic to the constitution, inform him/her of your intentions to stand up for what is right, if he/she is assigned to the area it would be good to have him/her as an observer to assure your rights are preserved. If you are not friends with an officer, it's not to late to start, and you should have a friend ready to videotape the incident to protect you in the event un true allegations are claimed by the agent or officers.
Do not be afraid to call the police whilst keeping the operator on the phone during the confrontation in the event a friend can not videotape the event. A record of your words will be available at the 911 dispatch and can later be gathered in discovery if you are charged with a crime. If the TSA agent shows signs of hostility be sure to mention that you fear you may be endangered, but be sure not to exaggerate the facts of what is happening, but it is ok to express your feelings.
Stand your ground and offer words of peace and respect even though they are being disrespectful and may be less than peaceful.
Do not submit to any search or seizure, do not abandon your possessions, know the law and cite code, bring papers with you, and be sure to take down names and badge numbers before hostilities escalate as this may be your only chance.
If you are prepared to be the next rosa parks, send me an email and we'll talk specifics. finehawaiianart@gmail.com
Thirdly Study and be able to recite the constitution, the bill of rights, notations in the federalists papers, quotes and of course my favorite US CODE with numbers, in my experience the underpaid under trained agent or officer will faint under the overwhelming display impressive