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2) The closest I have come to a decent application framework for building web apps is Java. It has clear security controls, recognizes the importance of Virtual Machine technology to compartmentalize access in a dangerous online world. It even has a very straightforward debugging environment which is quite impressive to track down bugs.

But curiously, it is shunned because if you don't know the scripting language flavor of the day, people don't want to build web sites or won't hire you.

Java suffers the same problem with proliferation of web frameworks. AFAIK the number of web frameworks for Java is probably the worst of any platform. This is a good example of the problem.

  Please see this.

Yours In Parentheses,
Kilgore Trout

Have a chip on your shoulder much? Most of what you're saying is simply incorrect. e.g. Java does not have half-a-dozen containers. Yes, the switch from the STL-inspired Vector to the more Java-ish ArrayList was annoying. Same with HashTable to HashMap. But beyond that, all those different containers you think you see are actually interfaces for wiring up complex functionality. Either that or completely different data structures with different performance characteristics. (Remember your CompSci courses?) The Java Collections package (which seems to be the only thing in Java you're remotely familiar with) provides enough functionality to write a complete database engine. Which, as a matter of fact, has been done quite a few times. (Sorry, ran out of words to link. Doh! Still more. Ah, to hell with it.)

The rest of the Java API is also not bloat. There are libraries for printing, crytography, sound, graphics, DOM, file I/O, text parsing, text formatting, text display, mathematics, directory interfaces (e.g. LDAP), distributed object systems, reflection, security, SQL database interface, logging, cross-platform preferences, regular expressions, ZIP/GZip support, accessibility, networking, the compiler, scripting engines, etc., etc., etc. Very little of the core API is redundant, with most of the (few!) redundancies being a result of the early days of Java before they moved away from the C++ style objects.

Nearly all of the post-1.0 APIs were done correctly the first time. Which means that the core Java API is actually quite slim for the amount of functionality it provides. And even then, there is a HUGE number of official expansion APIs for mail, multimedia codecs, network request/response handlers (e.g. servlets), 3D graphics, 3D sound, text-to-speech, speech recognition, telephony, SOAP, REST, USB, Bluetooth, scientific units, cross-platform desktop integration, Instant Messaging, P2P, and quite a bit more. And that's just the official JSR-approved expansions! The OSS and (bleh) commercial worlds are full of unofficial libraries to deal with nearly any problem you can come up with.

If you want bloat, stop looking at Java. Try compiling a few Linux apps sometime and tell me how many redundant libraries you come across. If you know what they all do (which is a miracle in of itself), compiling just ONE of those programs is enough to make a person blush with embarrassment. Not to mention that when a platform IS solidified (e.g. GNOME), it suffers from versionitis. (i.e. The constant need to upgrade your version of the libraries because this latest program no longer targets the version you just compiled. Or even worse, it requires a specific minor release, thus requiring you to have multiple minor releases of the library compiled and installed.) I won't even go into Microsoft's practice of inventing a new API for the same technology over, and over, and over again. (ODBC, DAO, ADO, JET, anyone?)

Now I happen to think that a lot of the choice that Linux offers is good. But don't point fingers at other platforms when there are more than enough examples of far worse situations close to home.

There are already several of these available for Java using everything from XML to custom declarative languages like F3.

http://www.java-source.net/open-source/content-man agment-systems

http://www.google.com/search?q=open+source+java+cm s

I researched it a couple of years ago and I liked AtLeap a lot.
Mostly as a starting point for a larger project though.

I like http://java-source.net/open-source/content-managme nt-systems for open source java solutions. It is a nice one-stop-shopping web site.

I have personally used Jahia. It's very powerful.

I think the reason you don't see many Open Source Java CMS tools is due to fairly weak Java support with most Web hosting providers.

Personally I'd like to see something like XUL where the GUI is specified using a markup language.

Dude you are so wrong.

Anybody who has programed in Java knows the only comparable "replacement" is C#. And if you're bashing Java for 1. not being a "free" language or 2. not having a good set of "free" compilers/VM's, the same goes for mono, except that C# is basically controlled by Microsoft (I'm not saying Sun is better, but Sun can't be worse here). Saying that GCJ is "under development and unsuitable for production work" yet suggesting things like mono, fpc (the TP/Delphi clone you're talking about) is just insane.

> something budding programmers write freeware (And usually not Free Software although there are notable exceptions) wih
You must have missed something. http://java-source.net/
Before you give me a bunch of counter examples, I'm sure for every counter example you give me, I can find a closed source program written in C/C++

>corporations write massive but essentially uncomplicated applications in because hordes of cheap semi skilled labor can crank out code that isn't particularly well written but is protected by the runtime from the worst programming errors
Massive applications by definition are complicated. They're just not 1337. Unless complicated == 1337 by your definition. The Java language was designed with these "massive but uncomplicated applications" in mind, not for "hey look what I can do with just one obfuscated line of C code!" Besides, all Java programmers know that the "worst programming error" is a Null Pointer Exception (NPE).

> I was offtopic on a rant against OO in general with my plea for a modernized procedural language.
LOL.

There are quite a few Java based open-source CMS like Magnolia (http://www.magnolia.info/en/magnolia.html), Apache Lenya (http://lenya.apache.org/ etc. An exhaustive list of Java based open-source CMS can be find here:
http://java-source.net/open-source/content-managme nt-systems

You most likely know this already but here it goes.

Java's web presentation framework is JSF, Java Server Faces. It runs on top of standard JSP pages. It is quite similar to WebForms on ASP.NET and they even give you a "rather good" free IDE with a visual form designer. http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscre ator/index.jsp

To facilitate your database access try to use Object Relational Mapping. Ruby on rails guys get Active Record by default. You can try one of these: http://java-source.net/open-source/persistence

About MySQL. The best way to argue against using MySQL is by explaining to your "superiors" how the GPL works. A lot of them probably think that MySQL's open source licence does not require them to leave the code open. Even the JDBC connectors are GPL so no, you cannot cheat. Be caregull with MySQL null dates and always enforce your constraints at the database level and you should do fine.

Good luck and happy coding
Adolfo

Your tools should have caught that. Empty statement is even a warning in the standard javac now I believe, but even if it's not, you should definitely be using a code-cleaner like pmd (or various others).

http://java-source.net/open-source/code-analyzers/ pmd

Problem is that Java programmers have been bought up by big companies deploying enterprise applications and they really haven't been contributing to open source projects.

Java's big attraction was that it came with 'CPAN', that is, the Java API. Java API has equivlants of Net::Socket, Net::SMTP, LWP and File::IO. These were big plusses back when it arrive circa 1995.

What i don't see in this OReilly yet are Date::Calc, Text::Autoformat or such.

See also: http://www.manageability.org/blog/opensource/view and
http://www.johnmunsch.com/archives/2004_07.html#00 0975 (can't seem to get the darn '#' working in /.)

Well, if you're looking for a CMS (content management system), then you probably should have looked through the recent archives of Ask Slashdot (http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/18/0 043234&tid=169).

And then if you're looking for an open-sourced ERP/CMS, Google can be your best friend. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=fir efox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=open+s ource+erp&btnG=Search, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=fire fox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=open+so urce+crm&btnG=Search).

The only one that seems to intersect both is Compiere, but that requires an Oracle license.

Of course, if what you're doing is just contracting, I'd just look at some good CRM software, like here (http://java-source.net/open-source/erp-crm).

Java now has an astounding array of libraries to use these days. Look at for some good ones.