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Also check out SkinLF from L2FProd - it's a library that makes it very easy to use GTK themes, KDE themes or even both together to make a very nice native-looking interface. I use it with ConsultComm and have had very nice results.

I have no idea what the current Swing implementation does, as I don't run GTK. That's why I asked if you had yet tested it. What I thought it *might* be doing is something like SkinL&F, which, as I understand it, can read the GTK and KDE themes themselves, thus emulation should be completely accurate. I am not sure if that is what the Swing team did or not. I also am not sure if they have the JVM setup to use the default GTK theme, or the current one, since I am not using GTK myself. That is why I suggest you try it and see. It *might* do what you want *now*.

Consider a company that needs a prototype of a web application, for instance. A few simplistic Python scripts can be put together easily and will likely be more than fast enough to get the point across.

A few scripts might get the point across, but every time I have seen this situation, they stress tested the website to determine how well it would scale. Any time something needs to scale or get stress-tested, I can't believe launching processes is the best way.

Doing the same thing with Java is not likely to be a good idea, because the syntax is more complex, because there is a separate compile step (Python compiles to byte-code as it runs) and because performance is sure to be dire.

That would depend on the approach. Serlvets or JSP, perhaps. In my approach, I simply load a compile .class file. You COULD precompile the script (whenever the timestamp changes) automatically inside the server, thus getting the type of behavior you are expecting... Personally, I leave it at letting them run javac, as all Java developers are used to that -- but I agree, the web-app concepts all suck for distribution. That's why I am not using them in my server.

In my experience the overhead required to bring up a Java virtual machine is considerable

I am not having that experience on FreeBSD or WinXP. I can not attest to Linux speeds, but I am using the Linux JDK on my BSD box. I use Java for a lot of command-line stuff (sometimes using a batch file to launch it so I don't have to worry about where it or the supporting classpath are)... but I never have any speed problems. It launches, parses the command line, determines what to do, and can be done before my finger leaves the enter key.

What I was saying was that I think the Apache java mod was the problem... I mean, they did make one that is supposed to be A LOT faster, but I could never get it to compile.

These vendors want a JRE that they can depend on to behave predictably and whatever version you have on your system -- whether newer or older -- is considered too great a risk.

I understand these arguments, and have heard them many times from previous employers. The fact is, however, they complain about performance and bugs, but prefer to stick with one that is no longer being patched instead of using the one that fixes their issues. They should have at least 1 engineer that is able to test their system with the newer JDKs. I mean, realistically, it is a very stupid argument on their part - they spend a lot of money (billions, depending on the company) because tech support calls increase as people are using a newer version that doesn't work with their product. In my personal experience, the only problem (other than the 'assert' or 'enum' changes) is that they specifically create a JVM in JNI code, which breaks because the u

Go look for other "look and feel" packages like this one...

Instead, your application should adopt the look&feel of the target platform you're using. Do you really want an ugly GTK-looking thing on Mac OS X?

That's why they should be using skinlf, if they want a pretty OS X'ish gui. Aparently it can even automaticaly load current themes being used in Linux. I havn't tried it yet, but pretty cool if it works as advertised.

Instead, your application should adopt the look&feel of the target platform you're using. Do you really want an ugly GTK-looking thing on Mac OS X?

That's why they should be using skinlf, if they want a pretty OS X'ish gui. Aparently it can even automaticaly load current themes being used in Linux. I havn't tried it yet, but pretty cool if it works as advertised.

Just a few things you said aren't exactly true, however, I made the same mistakes myself a few months ago.

The 54 megabyte version is the SDK comes with all the stuff to write your own eclipse plugin. The 20MB version labeled "Executable Binary" is sufficient for anyone who wants to use eclipse. After I found this and banged my head into the wall for not reading the page, I was happier with Eclipse.

The speed is less in SWT as you would think. Swing really isn't that slow. SWT is faster than swing, but not by the leaps and bounds that Eclipse is faster than NetBeans or jEdit. The deal is Eclipse doesn't come with 30 plugins. NetBeans has more plugins (and loads everyone at startup) than any project on Earth will ever use. From FTP support to J2EE server integration. It's a tremendous pain. jEdit lets you configure the plugins that you want. I love jEdit's XML editing (about par with Emacs). Someone should write in XML editing support for Eclipse. Thats my biggest beef with Eclipse.

I thought SWT was cool and I was going to do my current project in SWT. My mind was changed by the potential of Swing. LNF (look and feel) configuration is awesome! I wrote a little class to allow the look and feel to be configured by system properties (which I always load from a configuration file). So, by changing a few entries in a (uncannily similar to samba .. property = value) configuration file, you can make the program look and feel different. In the end, there will be a configuration program to allow the user to test all the LNF's. I envision that this small amount of effort on my part will let the user choose an interface that is a little more comfortable for them. In the very least, they will have a more asthetically pleasing resource, and that means a lot to end users. (Think about the time you spend customizing and picking themes for your Linux desktop!)

Anyhow, in the end, I heard that the benchmarks showed that there really wasn't as big of a difference in speed as there was made out to be.

Want to simulate SWT in Swing?
Type this in main()
UIManager.setLookAndFeel(UIManager.getSystemLookAn dFeelClassName());
but it will look like motif and not gtk under linux.

Good links!!!
javootoo.com links to just about every LNF.
a screenshot on javootoo of SkinLF with aquathemepack my favorite!
audiolaf may allow blind users to use your current app without a rewrite!
Some conversation search for SWT to see I'm not the only crackpot that thinks SWT isn't that much faster (anymore).

Keep in mind that it really doesn't matter if the controls are drawn by Java or the OS, they still have to be drawn and Java2 1.4 isn't stupid such that it doesn't user the available hardware acceleration routines available from the OS. Theoretically, it doesn't matter who draws them if they are both drawn the same way :).

That would be great, wouldn't it?
Apparently Apple has done this with Aqua, but I know of no such project for GTK+/GNOME. In the meantime you might want to look at the SkinLF project, which can use GNOME og KDE themes in Swing.

As of the latest (and even not so latest) jvms from sun and blackdown it's stable, fast enough for just about anything, is free (beer) and has apis for *everything*. The industry support behind the platform is huge (bigger than for linux, for instance) and it's gaining momentum.

Programmer productivity is heaps more than with C++, and don't just believe the average pimple-dotter that it isn't - actually line up a good java team and a good C++ team and see who churns out more production quality flexible code quicker. I guarentee it won't be the C++ team. And don't tell me about python. I use python (JPython acutally) for *scripting* and *rad* because *that's what it's for*.

And if you want the latest on linux, add

deb http://www.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.blackdown.org/ja va-linux/debian woody non-free

to /etc/apt/sources.list (if you're an 3l337 debian user).

You can even have it read your poxy GTK+ and KDE themes with skinlf. That's right! your java app can have a p0rn skin so you don't get lonely at night!

Yes, there are more 'interesting' languages out there. Hey, I prefer plan9, but I run linux because you just can't get any software for plan9. Same with java. Solid, supported ecommerce libraries for ML? yeah.

Sun doesn't think it should be free yet, and yes they have arsehole lawers. We'll see how that changes in future. In the meantime don't trash what you obviously don't understand.

Grrr.