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Mono and .NET - An Interview
all-of-the-dot writes "Would you use an open-source implementation of the .NET Framework? Ximian's Mono project enables you to build .NET apps that run on Linux and Unix as well as Windows. Check out the story from .NET Magazine's interview with Miguel de Icaza, Ximian cofounder and CTO" Added to which, AirLace writes "The Mono project has just achieved full self-hosting on Linux. While the C# compiler, itself written in C#, has been able to compile itself since March, Mono can now compile its own complete set of class libraries too. This announcement closely follows the release of the Phonic media player, the first .NET application for the GNOME desktop."
And Mono is why I swtiched from Gnome to KDE.
Any more questions?
BC
No, I am not pro-M$. .NET will soon be integrated in Windows, and developers *will* use it. .NET. All I hear about it is praise from developers. You can create webservices ooh so fast and it's ooh so great. And "there is no competition; nothing else provides an environment that integrated and productive".
.NET is suicide. If you can't beat them, join them.
However, Microsoft has proven again and again that, in the end, they *will* win, especially if it's a Windows technology.
Look at MS Visual Studio
Ignoring
We all know how MS feels about non-MS operating systems. We all know they're using .NET as a way to lock people into Windows servers and desktops. There's NO WAY they're gonna hang out and let poor Linux play in their reindeer games.
No...they'll go ahead and change their infrastructure so that it doesn't work with open source code.
cause you're all anit-M$ here. damn anarchists
That this "phonic" thing, built with the ultra-portable .net dealy, still only runs on linux (or at least nix-ish) machines with gtk?
.net apps written for windows similarly only work with the "windows gui toolkit" (or whatever)?
On a more serious note...
Seriously. Where's the portability at? Will
Has .NET started to be deployed, or is it still on the drawing board?
So Miguel provided an answer to something that's been troubling me...COM. He mentioned having to emulate some win32 stuff. MS hasn't done away with COM, just wrapped it with .NET, so I've always figured any free alternative would never really work since it would have to support COM to run windows programs that strayed from .NET only code. Nothing in .NET replaces the generic interfaces you can make and program to in COM... I'm curious what the future will hold.
The .Net framework is a very clean and interesting initiative. Forget Passport, forget web-services and all the other pieces and focus only on the framework and the common language runtime (that the focus of MONO) - its neat, and being able to compile code on several platforms without worrying about ports is a great achievement.
Off course, don't use platform-specific calls (PInvoke) if you want interoperability, but almost everything else is ok.
you're a fucking idiot. you think anything that comes out of microsoft is bad just because it's microsoft. have you ever actually used .net???? it is excellent. and what's wrong with making money??
Hey, this sounded pretty cool at first. I mean, the more languages the better, right? ;) Plus, I hate it when the Winblowz lusers get to play with pretty toys I can't get on my Linux boxen.
:(
But then I reconsidered. First, a little background. C# was, is, and always will be, a Micro$oft invention. Like it did with SMB and OLE, not to mention DirectX and ZIP, M$ will have no reservations about mucking with C# just to break Mono compatibility.
In the case of SMB, we live with this. SMB has become a de facto standard in the enterprise, so Samba is forced to follow M$'s lead and keep up. But no such market forces exist for C#. Right now, it's a minority player against giants like Java and C++.
By supporting C# through Mono, Linux only serves to make it more popular. In doing so, it makes M$ more powerful. The Mono project is about as counterproductive toward Linux advancement as a Free Software project can be.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
so just let them do what they want cause it's inevitable? wow, what a loser attitude. bet you'll never get laid
I am not interested in .NET because of M$'s clout, but I am somewhat interested in CLR and the standard libraries because it may be a genuinely useful technology. I'm not interested much in C#, as it appears to be quite similar to Java with some C++-like stuff, but if the promise of easy cross-language development is true, that is interesting. Of course, that is possible with a JVM and standard Java libraries, but the CLR may be superior in that respect. Let's wait and see.
I thought I read some time ago that Microsoft put some sort of clause in the EULA for .NET or its VS.NET that said that software using certain licenses (GPL) can't be written in .NET. Is Mono GPL or similarly licensed? If so, doesn't writing the Mono C# compiler in C# make it illegal?
Is that not the case? Just curious.
My favorite part of
[o]_O
Every language on every platform... (eventually I know). But still it is a grander vision than java offers.
Maybe if a valid reason was given for "switching to KDE" aside from Gnome being able (able, not forced) to use Mono this wouldn't be a troll.
But it is.
You can't say there aren't any explanations for this. The coordination of events is just too uncanny for my test.
I mean, really, is the elevation of the trip meter really at stake when I've got less than 24 hours to beautify my pancake??!
Yeah, you know I gotcha babe. Just 10 pounds more, and the scales tip in my favor. No more Saturday night bingo for me. It's phosphate glands from now on.
On a side note, I would like to see Ximian or the GNU Foundation talking at how MONO and DOT-GNU differ on purpose or how they are similar.
Frankly, they seem to have the same end goal, and I'm afraid this is a duplicate effort that would be better off if they joined forces.
Dot-GNU: http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/index.html
Microsoft has proven again and again that, in the end, they *will* win
Really? They *always* win?
Bob
MSN
IIS
MSN
ASP Microsoft Office
Hailstorm
etc, etc
Yeah... it's hopeless...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
And Slim left town.
The work that Miguel is doing is admirable - he obviously has the talent and motivation to achieve quite a technical feat. Since the .NET platform will inevitably become popular as developers are brainwashed, strongarmed, forced by managers into using it.
So the value of running .NET applications on Linux clearly speaks for itself. Not that I think this is a "good" thing at all, but maybe when MicrosoftOffice.NET comes out, then Linux will finally be a contender on the desktop.
But none of that will ever be a reality. Microsoft has a covert plan somewhere to torpedo any potential threats to its control on the desktop.
bad/good news for Linux?
bad/good news for Linux?
bad/good news for Linux?
bad/good news for Linux?
Is a broken trolling poster? All he ever posts is bad/good news for Linux?
the other parts of .net such as passport, application services and MS web services are the troubling part. mono has nothing to do with these.
......Oh my darling Java clients.
Why do I keep getting the feeling that Linux is still on the rebound from Java ?
Come on, everyone knows they were made for each other. They even share a common interest in
opposing Microsoft.
But Linux got sniffy because Java wouldn't open herself to him completely. Maybe she felt
she was too good for him, maybe she thought he'd never make good, just because he came from
the wrong side of the enterprise.
So what does he do ? He goes for another another girl who looks just like her.
"How I missed her,
How I missed her,
How I missed my Java clients,
Till I kissed her
Little sister,
And forgot my Java clients."
* The Mono C# compiler was able to compile itself on December
28th, 2002. The resulting image contained errors though.
What exactly is your objection?
Are you suggesting that the Linux support of a programming language invented by Microsoft will have no impact whatsoever on Linux?
This is either going to be good news for Linux or bad news for Linux. If it takes tps12 to point this out to the rest of us slashbots, then so be it.
I use C#, ASP.NET and VS.NET at work. I find developing web applications with these MS technologies glumed together as irritating as it gets. While the integration between disperate technologies is commendible, VS.NET is slower than frozen mud. Give me a good text editor and command line tools any day.
.NET with Windows to the point that Mono will never work. MS will release new .NET crap every year and Mono will play catch up for a year so it finally works again just as MS is releasing a new incompatible version.
.NET. Microsoft has proven time and again that it can't play well with others. I think Java has a good record for working everywhere consistantly.
I think that the whole Mono project will turn out to be a major debacle. Microsoft is going to integrate and complicate
In the past, Microsoft has either presented an "open" standard, or pushed someone else's open standard, only to hijack it in the end, to the detriment of non-Windows users and developers.
I think the Open Source community would be better off backing a web technology like J2EE and not
I would recommend consulting members of the Wine and Samba development groups. I'm sure they have plenty of horror stories about working with constantly changing MS technologies.
I thought Mononucleosis was bad for people? Why are programmers trying to spread a virus?
Two of our developers just came back from a .NET training session and were wowed beyond belief. (Note: This session was put on by a private company, not Microsoft). These guys were hardcore Linux/Java hackers working on our latest web based application. What changed their mind? It was the tools. The code had *NOTHING* to do with it as far as they were concerned. I told them there were OSS alternatives that pretty much replicated all of the .NET functionality. They still shook their heads saying it's the tools they were introduced to that made the real difference, not the code. One small example they used was that the MSFT tools allow you to backtrace a transaction all the way from your HTML front end clear on in to the database with a simple click of a button. There were a lot of other examples, but that was the one that stood out in my mind the most. It was the fact that they could write code faster and worry less about the crap that tipped the scales.
The thinking progresses with the argument that since we're developing on Microsoft tools we should be running a Microsoft OS on our servers since no two JVM's 'er I mean CLR's are alike...
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
Why do we need C#, its just a java syntax, with different class names. A different VM, and different byte code. Really it doesn't seem like their is much point to this whole C# business other then when MS feels like it they change the C# license, or start sueing other companies for IP infringement. Doesn't seem like that good of an idea. At least Sun isn't in the market position to start pushing their weight around. Personally, I would rather see development into a better JVM. The .NET framework on linux seems to be just a way for MS to get its hooks into Open Source with out actually having to do anything, we're inviting them in. Does the .NET framework actually provide anything that isn't easily achievable with other tools? I would think that if someone wanted to build extremely fast portable GUI apps they would write them in C/C++ using portable libraries such as GTK. As far as network services go, java seems plenty fast. And speeding up java is probably only a matter of better JVM's and / or compilers. Hopefully the lasting effect of .NET will be to encourage Sun to improve java.
Ok, then why don't you be the first to format your hard drive and install windows?
If there's no point trying to "beat" microsoft, then you have no reason to have Linux (or any other OS). Just give in and go Windows, then.
Microsoft Bob... Need I say more? :)
.Net is going to get used by the places that have tended towards being heavily windows environments originally. Companies that have been using Unix, Linux, and Java will probably not be moving to .Net anytime soon.
.Net on Linux provided that it works well and provided that I can have faith that, in the long term, I'll be able to do this without risking a microsoft tax or lock-in.
.Net. Wait until enough people develop .Net solutions on alternative platforms then say, "well that's great, now you can pay us a license fee."
.Net I'd probably see it as a good thing. Hell, I've been a java developer for a while and I don't think much better of Sun than I do of Microsoft. The only reason I trust sun to stick with some level of openess is that it's about the only ammunition they have available to leverage against Microsoft's hegemony.
Overall
Personally I'd be very interested in using
My big concern down the road is that Microsoft is going to start using patents and license restrictions to control the fate of
I just can't believe that Microsoft would develop any technology that wasn't designed from the ground up to further their control. If just about any other company had put forth
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TOE Ff. 2Ah. Explanation: 1. A conscious entity is the essence of free will. a. There is a finite and constant number of conscious entities. b. Each is separate from all conscious entities. c. Each has no beginning. d. Each has no end. e. Each establishes a sphere expanding at the speed of light upon denaturing of the conscious system. f. Each cannot be active (inputting and outputting) if they are not coupled with a conscious seat. g. Each has a nonquantized infinite storage of previous quantized input. g1. The storage resists attempts to glean information from it. g2. The storage cannot be directly shared--it must go through conscious seats. h. Other than the storage of g, each is identical to all other conscious entities. 2. A conscious seat is the physical portion of a conscious system. 3. A conscious system is the fusion of one conscious entity with one seat of consciousness. a. It has a beginning. b. It has an end (denaturing). c. It is formed under the following conditions. c1. A seat is ready to accept an entity. c2. At least one entity's sphere of influence encompasses the seat. c3. The center of one of the spheres is closest to the seat. This one is caught. d. It has a quantized input and output. e. It must be either active (inputting and outputting) or inactive (doing neither yet not denaturing). f. Output is determined by the entity's storage, system input, and free will. 4. The universe. a. It is quantized in time and space. b. It has no beginning. c. It has no end. d. Space is bounded. e. Energy is finite and constant. Meaning: The meaning of all conscious entities is to pursue two goals--love and power. A conscious entity, in a conscious system... -Common subgoals: C1. controls reality. C2. knows reality. C3. has mastery of potential reality. C4. has mastery of the abstract plane. C5. never denatures from its seat. -Love subgoals: L1. and one other are the only conscious entities that can be active in a conscious system for all future time and space. L2. is bound by a seed of love to the other conscious entity. -Power subgoals: P1. is the only conscious entity that can be active in a conscious system for all future time and space.
1. .NET
2. ?
3. Profit
Mono has nothing to do with GNOME. If you'd do your research you'd realize that they are seperate projects and that the rumors that GNOME is going to be based on .NET are just that -- rumors. There are some people that are involved in both projects, however, the GNOME project has come out and said they currently have no plans to move to MONO or .NET any time soon. Maybe someday, who knows? But they are SEPERATE projects. Read Miguel de Icaza's own
reply to this idea.
.NET framework that are really nice. What's more, unlike Sun, M$ has given their language and technology up to be standardized. In that sense, it's more free than Java.
Besides, have you ever looked at the MONO project? They're doing some really impressive stuff. You probably shouldn't write it off just because you're afraid of M$. I'm a java programmer and an avid Linux user, however, there are some features of C# and the
Who said Freedom was Fair?
What the hell is wrong with you people! Get lives!
I can't speak for all the "dot-net languages", but I've been writing lots of ASP.Net code in C# and VB.Net recently and guess what? It's not the tools, it is the framework itself.
.Net SDK and what makes me all wowed is how quickly I can do things that used to take hours to build on ASP 2.0, like complex form interfaces, data validation, query output, etc. It's well worth looking at the samples to get acquainted with, I bet you'll be surprised with how powerfull and flexible the framework is :-)
I'm not using Visual Studio, I'm working out of the
Just as Mono starts making a little headway, Microsoft starts mapping out .NET V.2. I really would like to see this project accomplish what it set out to do, but you can't like it's odds.
"Watch your cornhole, bud."
I mean.. great.. first this thing compiles it self. Soon it will escape from it's binary cage and then it will kill us all!
Good work, hackers..
XML-RPC rules.
There was an article just the other day on here about how web developers are designing for Microsoft now and ignoring standards. Though Microsoft is never going to make themselves fully incompatible with other browsers, they have continued to distinguish themselves from the competition by their "innovations". The result is that while I can surf websites on linux using mozilla, I will be given a decidedly different experience doing so. Some sites will refuse to let me in all together, and others will just break horribly.
Now, you might say the reaction to this is that those companies will suffer from losing my business. Yeah, so they are losing what, 5% of the market? Ooooo, big deal. This causes people who don't have a tolerance for these glitches to go with a windows platform out of their lack of patience for that stuff.
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I'm hoping that once the CLR is ISO standardized it will be adopted by IBM and made accessible in their future tooling. IBM is large enough to help bridge the gaps between Sun and MS.
.Net for open and closed source efforts.
This would give them the best of both worlds and push forward both J2EE and
I guess I have to make my obligitory post on this subject:
As a technology person, I like the .NET framework, the web services aspects, the runtime, and I think C# is infinitely better than C++ (then again, what isn't...). I'm looking forward to playing with C# on my Linux machine.
But I'm just a little creeped out by the idea of using Mono for anything important (business-related), such as deploying services or products. I really have trouble figuring out what Microsoft has to gain from allowing Mono to exist indefinitely. They have plenty to gain from a sweeping, cross-plaform, bait-and-switch ploy.. they can just wait until Mono is somewhat established, apps are built and deployed... then break it and wait patiently for the inevitable migration back to Windows.
I would like to hear from Microsoft that they won't sue any Mono developer (or user) for patent infringement. I'd like to hear that all relevant APIs and specification are public and open and will stay that way. Miguel's attitude seems to be one of "hope", quote:
Now, I could be all wrong, Microsoft actually might not mind that we will use their technology and not their products...but...this is Microsoft we're talking about here.
Sure this sounds like fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but that's exactly what I feel whenever I think about Mono......
It is! But it happened 7 years ago with the release of Java.
Correct, this was done a long time ago by Java, but according to this survey, Microsoft have done it a lot better. Read past the part where they compare Microsoft's BETA JDBC drivers to the rest of them, and
Java on Oracle was the best at Jacva with a response time of 600 pages per second for 800 users, but just look at the .NET tests for the same app. 800 pages per second for 850 users!
Link to Oracle's stats: http://www.eweek.com/slideshow/0,3670,p=1&s=1590&a =23120&po=1&i=1,00.asp, link to all stats: http://www.eweek.com/slideshow/0,3018,sid=0&s=1590 &a=23120,00.asp
nucleosis? Doesn't anyone doing stuff for Microsoft these days come up with names *other* then toxic, deadly, contagious stuff?
Karma:This parrot is dead! (and so is the joke.)
Hmm, that does not seem a wise choice in light of this: http://qtcsharp.sourceforge.net and this: http://developer.kde.org/language-bindings/qtcshar p/index.html
;-)
You can find these bindings in KDE's cvs for quite sometime.
Cheers!
Mono does not make any sense for those interested in free software. Embracing Mono only helps one company: Microsoft. It lends legitamacy to their scheme to capture control of the net and and net transactions.
Just because a hack can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.
I can take a binary shared library and inherit my own classes from it transparently even if the source code NO LONGER EXISTS. This library could have been written in COBOL or FORTRAM. It doesn't matter. There's no need to design home-made wrappers.
Can Java do that?
Isn't C++'s problem that it's only really reusable on a source code level?
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
I think Miguel is crazy. He has totally lost it. The hell with .NET!
Bingo!
Here's a man that's learned from the history of the past decade: let Microsoft set a standard and they will:
1) Change the API with every moon cycle to the point where only Microsoft can use it effectively
2) Keep parts of the API hidden so only Microsoft can use it, thus giving them a leg-up over the competition.
People, look at the past 10 years. Look at Microsoft's never-ending strategy of embrace, extend, obfuscate, and destroy. They're using the same damned tactics NOW, and yet everyone is ignoring this fact simply based upon the fact that Miguel d'Icaza has put his questionable imprimatur upon it.
I don't care WHAT Miguel says. Talk to Borland. Talk to Watcom. Talk to any of the ghosts from Microsoft's conquests, you'll hear the same story over and over again. You ignore Microsoft's strategy at your own peril.
1. Mono is a separate project from GNOME
2. KDE and QT are also developing bindings for MONO
What are you going to do now? Switch to TWM?
Every JVM opcode has a .Net CLR equivalent opcode. However, not every CLR construct has an efficient JVM equivalent: unsigned types, auto (un)boxing, versioned assemblies, delegates, stack-based structs, and unmanaged code just to name a few. Any code written in Java can trivially be ported to C# (see Ant/Nant, JUnit/NUnit) but porting from C# to Java is more difficult if programmers take advantage of these extra CLR features - and most do because they reduce coding time and complexity. Microsoft certainly knows how to play the game.
I believe that what you are thinking of was the licensing they put around information they released related to SAMBA.
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Look at .NET, what is it? Basically it's just another API (plus some other enhancements, but I told you to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.) like the Win32 API
Microsoft wants to fuel upgrades just like the transition from Win16 to Win32 fueled upgrades.
The worst case in a Linux-point-of-view is that everything stays the same - Windows-apps don't run under Linux.
The best case is that .NET apps run under Mono/Linux right from the start.
As far as I can tell from this site, Microsoft DID NOT create SMB. IBM did. They were the first ones to really use it, but they didn't actually create it.
So that means we can run Office.NET and, presumably, every other MS application that is built to .NET standards?
If not, what's the big deal?
from the Ximian web site:
* The Mono C# compiler was able to compile itself on December
28th, 2002. The resulting image contained errors though.
i'd say it was a good guess that they have errors with announcements like that...
----
i do not use drugs, i AM drugs -- Dali
About some people using a technology out of religion rather than merit.
.NET but I tend to see it as an exit strategy from the OS market (in a world where the OS market is saturating in the key markets in the developed world). This is a real reason that open source, being more flexible in its development pace (and giving customers what they need through community effort rather than centralized marketing). So, I wish Mono the best.
This interview is a very interesting interview in part because it seems to indicate that Mono is a good way of getting Windows developers into Open Source software development-- something that Microsoft has generally been pretty successful at preventing. I have generally likes what I have seen in
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Is someone already working on something like this?
All your favorite sites in one place!
1. Give away GNOME for free
2. Give away MONO for free
3. ???
4. Profit
This doesn't really add up to much.
Only about 120 classes of the 1200 in the Dotnet platform are standardized as part of the C Sharp language, so standardization offers little protection if your application uses a GUI (Windows Forms, Web Forms) or a database (ADO Dotnet). Not only are these libraries not standardized, they are likely to be protected by patents.
Sun does not have the same room for manoeuvre as MS since the JCP has other powerful participants. In practice, there have been few ownership/legal issues in developing Open Source versions of the JVM - see the Kawa web site for a list of these. Their complaints revolve around issues such as access to the test suites - ultimately Sun just owns the Java name, not all the implementations.
Cheers!
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
They already have extended 'it', if we mean Dotnet rather than C Sharp. Fussing about the language is a red herring.
Never liked the performance and resource-consumption price of Java anyway, so no big deal.
Look at the toolsets, the final contenders I looked at for a cross-platform GUI toolkit were: .NET .NET:
Trolltech Qt
GTK
Delphi/Kylix
wxWindows
-Poor history of MSW undocumented APIs.
-Poor history of MSW trying to break other toolsets not blessed by the company.
-Poor history of MSW once actually finishing a piece of software's features (eg Office) trying to find other ways to pinch money off people.
-Poor history towards GPL software.
Qt:
-A strong contender: good documentation, tools.
-Lost out because they say the Windows version requires a purchased copy of Visual C++ to do any compiling with it.
-Emulates widgets instead of using native.
GTK (1.2 back then, I can't comment on 2.0):
-Very free.
-A lot of component scattered libraries makes documentation difficult.
-Sometimes higher level widgets don't exist: need to make them from scratch using the window primitives.
-MSW port is a bit rough.
Delphi/Kylix:
-Easy to use, a company respected by me that makes good software.
-No Mac available.
-Proprietary, liable to not be maintained if company goes under.
-Free version is nagware under Linux, I believe their documentation said.
wxWindows:
-Works out of the box, now.
-A single project can be compiled for MSW, GTK, OSX and less commons like X11 embedded.
-Good documentation, sample code, etc.
-Core team is *very* accepting to new features and sharper code.
-Native widgets always used, where they exist makes a proper look and feel for an application.
-The open library in unencumbered by a company that needs to ship new versions of tools or the library.
-Fast: native compiles so no runtimes needed.
-The C++ is designed to by truly compatible with almost any compiler, toolset, not ones blessed by one certain company.
-Well tested (10 years).
-Tools and library are no cost, (or nagware). Free compilers exist on all supported platforms.
wxWindows was the one that was selected, and now 10 months into the project, I am very satisfied with the results from that toolkit choice.
-----
Cast a Cold Eye
On Life, on Death
Horseman, pass by
--W.B. Yeats' gravestone
In 3.1(a), it seems to say that you cannot use redistributables if your program will operate on a non-Windows platform.
You also agree not to permit further distribution of the Redistributables by your end users except: (1) you may permit further redistribution of the Redistributables by your distributors to your end-user customers if your distributors only distribute the Redistributables in conjunction with, and as part of, the Licensed Product and you and your distributors comply with all other terms of this EULA; and (2) in the manner described in Section 3.2.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
If Linux didn't suck so god awful bad on the desktop maybe it would have some market share.
/. about how much MS sucks.
Just fucking once I would like to see one of you dirty, filthy, LinSux lusers spend some time working on your broke ass OS instead of posting to
Worthless bastards ahoy!
Worth at least one point, surely?
You sound much like a Microsoft hoar trying to improve .NET's acceptibility by moving into the Unix world and saying .NET's framework must be supported. .NET is YetAnotherProgrammingLanguageSystem.
.NET is the most inefficient system in the history of computing. MONO is .NET on Unix and shares the same disadvantages of Microsoft's .NET. The only goals .NET and MONO will accomplish are:
.NET and MONO due to the inherent instability that .NET and MONO poses,
.NET and MONO to be the occurence of massive ammounts of speculation that any person could write applications using either the .NET and MONO project with verry little training, verry little skill, and verry little effort.
.NET framework to deplot applications.
.NET framwork? Nobody believes there is a difference between right and wrong; you are all no different than wild animals that enjoy rape, disease, and thievery in a god-less society.
Programms writting in Java, JavaScript, Python, Perl, C, C++, and Unix Shell yield higher performance, more efficiency, and require little disk-space for their usage.
1)split development resources from where development should be concentrated,
2)obfuscate ethics for implemting ideas in applications,
3)reduce application portability to platforms that are completly unable to support
4)uphold a union of security-risk and virus-like software to inter-operate with little effort to induce a higher-payload of damage to any platform,
5)reduce development efficiency,
6)supports Microsoft's MONOpoly.
In my experience as a a programmer, which my skills include extensive knowledge and deployment of applications written within openGL, Java, JavaScript, Perl, Python, HTML, C, C++, i386, Z80, Alpha PAL, and HPRisc, I have come to the conclusion based on the technical merits of the
Microsoft's marketing team (yes, every employee is realy a marketer), and the activists within the MONO project, have effectivly LIED to the programming world to invest time in learnet the
What is worse than the
MONO and .NET is trying to destroy our community, but I've got the cure! Switch to FreeBSD! We don't have that problem.
Why do I feel like many of the highly-moderated posts on this thread were written by people on Microsoft's payroll? Has Slashdot been highjacked?
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
... why in the nine hells is so difficult to elaborate a STANDARD library (or whatever you want to call it) that will :
.NET initiative, even if Microsoft products ares as far as standard as one could imagine (MFC ... sigh).
- define common packages and their functions/methods/properties
- and then implements them according to platform/language specification ?
As a very stupid example, take sorting/filter functions : is it so difficult to sit down and make all those common and boring tasks a no-brainer by defining a common function header for them, whatever the language is ? I know that depending on language, the header declaration will change, but hell, if at least the same arguments are in the same order and have the same effects, that would be heaven on Earth !
When I design a new class/function, I always try to be as close as possible to standards I find in related works. My job would be SO much simplified if a standard function or even a data structure would be the same whatever we use as a development platform/language.
For this, I applaud Microsoft for the
Intelligence shared is intelligence squared.
For better or worse, .NET is seeing a huge take up. Any developers using VB, ASP or Visual C++ are likely to be migrating to the .NET framework on Windows platforms. For that reason, I'd like to see a full and free implementation of .NET on linux - especially the webservice APIS and the Windows.Forms namespace stuff. .NET for Windows. If the Windows.Forms stuff is implemented as GTK widgets in MONO or whatever, then that level of compatability would be achieved. .NET framework is free(beer) for windows and there's a free(speech) alternative to VisualStudio shaping up already.
GTK# seems to exist in it's own namespace at present, which means that GUI apps written using c# on Linux won't work natively on
For the interested, the
The documentation alone is enough for me!
-Lost out because they say the Windows version requires a purchased copy of Visual C++ to do any compiling with it.
Well, I don't really care that much about supporting a legacy OS but TrollTech claim that Borland works too. Haven't tried it myself.
-Emulates widgets instead of using native.
But this allows some control over the style (I don't believe in repeating MS's mistakes: a good UI is better than one that has familiar screw-ups like having shutdown under "Start").
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
"While the C# compiler, itself written in C#..." ....umm.... wha.... uhh........ how the.......... ummmmmm.....
If you think that SWT is more advanced then the AWT, think again. The SWT is far far behind the AWT in what it can do and where it will run. The difference is that SWT has a faster design, and after another year of cooking, may be much better the AWT.
I don't think that programming with SWT will ever be easier then with the AWT, thanks to the AWT's event system. AWT is almost like magic the way that it handles events, while with the SWT you have to run your own event loop. This is why I think that the SWT has a faster design, since it requires the programmer to do more. That and it is designed to use less memory, AWT has a way of not letting objects die.
I think that they should be spending more time creating a superfast java with new graphics APIS. Since more people use Java and you won't get the stigma that goes with everything MS on Linux.
First, I would like to post a link to an MSDN article on Microsoft's attempt to build a .NET implementation on FreeBSD.
Second, I am a C# and VB.NET programmer. I have really enjoyed using the new VS.NET, and love ASP.NET. The way it treats web pages with an event model is very, very cool. As I am also a PHP programmer, I consider ASP.NET, concept wise, a giant leap ahead of PHP. VS.NET runs a bit slow on my 400 MHz machine, but cruises along smoothly on my 1.6 GHz laptop. Plus, it handles much better than Sun's Forte, a comparable product that would let me build comparable software solutions.
Third, I am VERY excited to be made aware of MONO! I have done quite a bit of Java programming in my past, and am glad to have a better alternative to it for building enterprise level applications on Linux. I have not had the level of "undocumented features" bite me in my .NET programs as I have in VC++, VB6 or Java. Say what you will about the evil empire, but the .NET framework is a very well thought through, nice behaving programming platform. I wish the MONO team the best of luck, and am thinking of volunteering!
Fourth (and finally) I have been teaching some VB.NET and C# classes. I have found all of my students walking away from the classes wanting to use .NET, including Linux programmers. I would tell you hardcore MS haters out there to at least try out .NET, especially if it is going to be implemented on Linux. I think you will find that it could be a great tool for you to build software with, if you take of the blinders. After all, why not take what is Microsoft's big marketing push and turn it against them on Linux?
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Everyone knows Miguel has become a Micro$oft shill.
.NET apps, but the apps will still only work with MS clients. This is exactly what they want.
But seriously, MS stands to gain a lot from MONO's efforts. They are not a "server os" company, and why should they be? would you rather have 100,000 clients, or millions?
People who use Unices on their backend will still be able to host
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
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Wow! Great marketing speech! You work for Micro$oft, right? It seems so.
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MS don't give a toss about the ECMA or any other standards body. They treat HTML as if they were the standards body (remember all of two days ago we had this story about the effect MS has on "standards" and that was one they didn't even invent!) they just want some stamp of approval that they're playing nice at the start of the game. After that the ECMA can pack up and go home, Bill won't be needing them anymore.
MONO simply gives more credence to .NET by allowing MS to honestly (not that that's ever bothered them!) say that .NET is a cross-platform technology. Of course, they'll add, the non-Windows versions aren't very good. And they'll be telling the truth.
The reason they'll be telling the truth is that they will make it their business to make it true. Every point upgrade (and there'll be lots of them) will come out just as MONO catches up with the changes since the one before last, making MONO a permanent 'old version' of .NET. And if the point update breaks old code or ignores the "standard" guess what? MS couldn't care less. Their customers will be locked in, they won't be able to change to MONO because it will be two points back and not able to do what the customers' software needs. So it'll be out with the chequebook again to add another wing to Bill mansion.
I mean, for Christ's sake, it's not like Microsoft haven't done this all before! What are you people? BLIND???
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
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I think Ximian's Mono project may do something unintentially pro-Microsoft: it could turn the entire Microsoft .NET initiative into a de facto standard before Sun figures out what hit them.
.NET is trying to achieve. Between Microsoft implementing .NET Framework with its own tools and Ximian implementing .NET Framework with Open Source tools, Sun has its work seriously cut out to convince the majority of developers to write code for the competing Liberty Alliance (as if Sun's wishy-washy attitude towards the Linux crowd in regards to Java hasn't offended a lot of Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD programmers already).
In fact, why do you think Microsoft has actually not stood in the way of Mono? Because Mono validates much of what
Can OpenSource embrace and extend .NET?
Sun does not have the same room for manoeuvre as MS since the JCP has other powerful participants. In practice, there have been few ownership/legal issues in developing Open Source versions of the JVM - see the Kawa web site for a list of these. Their complaints revolve around issues such as access to the test suites - ultimately Sun just owns the Java name, not all the implementations.
The Apache Foundation is working on freeing up access to the test suites, according to this press release
well, I guess thats another way of saying they made something so good and innovative you would be an idiot not to use it; since I dont have the *nix party line to tow, I can just call a cigar a cigar.
Even though .NET does not reach the performance of compiled languages, it does excel in some areas, for example memory allocation.
In other words, it's a typical Microsoft product..Comment removed based on user account deletion
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The hardest part of learning a new framework is typically learning a new language. With .NET you can continue to code in C++.
I disagree completly. Programmers who are well grounded in the basics of one language can usually pick up the syntax of another language quite quickly. Especially for someone like yourself who has already invested the time learn a rich language like C++.
For example if you haven't done so already pick up a book on PHP and give yourself a weekend to sit in the sun and read.
By lunch time on Sunday you will have had enough time to learn the basic data types of the language, how it handles arrays, building functions, file handling. . .etc . In other words you can easily learn all the syntax of the language in quite short order.
But if you want to do something more interesting that reading and writing text files you are going to have to learn some new APIs and that is where the real time is spent.
Would you use an open-source implementation of the .NET Framework? Ximian's Mono project enables you to build .NET apps that run on Linux
No way, I know better than that. I would use Unix however, in the form of FreeBSD, because it's a more stable higher performance cleaner written OS.
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from their site:
:>
"The Mono C# compiler was able to compile itself on December 28th, 2002."
Is this a pre-announcement.
Remember, we have a team of five or six people led by Miguel the hack cracking this thing out, not distinguished engineer James Gosling and a team of hundreds. This thing will be a piece of shit, and I looked at the API Todo list, and they still haven't got shit. About 10% of the classes are complete. It is a waste of everyone's time for them to put this out, they should just stick to customizing desktop systems and writing buggy e-mail clients. This miguel freak doesn't know CRAP! hahah
Visual Studio.NET/Asp.NET bite:
1. The IDE often removes eventhandlers generated by the IDE. I just code them up in the code behind the page now so that VS.NET doesn't break my app.
2. The delegate/eventhandler system makes messy code. Compare to anonymous inner classes in java.
3. Try to create a new a new xslt document in visual studio. The namespace is instead of . Nice standard compliance.
4. int is a value type object. The is/as operators don't like value types. This makes for interesting methods that take System.Object as a parameter.
5. Why is it a WebForms page when it can only contain one html form object?
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Actually, no audio player at this time can be cross platform in .NET, because even MS's FCL doesn't include facilities for sound playback. You have to make system calls directly of the system's APIs, which obviously differ from platform to platform.
.NET app... maybe the Ogg decoding's written in .NET, but the audio playback's definitely not and the UI may not be either?
I don't know what Phonic's using GTK for. I suspect it's even one step further removed from being a true
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dotgnu is another effort to develope a .net clone under GPL and here is a FAQ
Jython... Nothings stops you from porting a language to run on a java platform.
I'd rather be sailing...
Microsoft is pushing .NET and Sun has SunOne
No, Sun has J2EE. SunONE is the crappy app server
which used to be called iPlanet.
About the CLI - common language Infrastructure and part 2 of CLI information
To really understand what is going on here, consider the CTS - Common Type System and the CIL - Common Intermediate Language as a midway translation point for any programming language.
With this other programing languages or other programming mehodology interfaces can more easily be created.
It's like taking all popular programming languages and putting them into a pot and boiling them down to common and non-conflicting data types and programming concepts. And from here, using the summed vocabulary set of data types and concepts as a translation base to use in converting a program written in your convient programming language choice into CIL or Common Intermediate Language bytecode. From which you can run on any systemj that has a VES or Virtual Execution System type of system installed.
This of course allows both intrepreted and compiled types of languages to potentially be used.
Chasing others technologies and implementing their own successful variants are one of MS' specialities. First, they catch up, then they use their huge influence to make it the new standard. Doesn't need to be better or even on par with the technology they've chased, either.
I guess that's partly what MS has been in trial for. Often, MS can be seen as hurting the evolution of software for their own profit.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
You're confusing the platform independence of Java (write once, run anywhere) with the platform independence of .NET ( which is more like write once in any language, call anywhere in any language). This is a result of people not really understanding what .NET is.
Even in Java, if you were to call MFC components, you'd lose portability. Same things go for application written with GTK, Motiff, or whatever.
Look up the word p-a-t-e-n-t.
Then read the Halloween memos.
What? You really think that Microsoft would stoop so low? Of course they won't - until they think that they have enough people locked in to make for a really nasty FUD demonstration of the problems of trusting open source implementations.
that quote from "Porky's"? "Right now he's just playing with you, but one of these times he's going to get tired of you©©© and he's going to hurt you©"
"I'm a humble person really,
I'm actually much greater than I think I am"
Horny Smurf, glad to lend a hand, [or cock for all you ladies out there :)]
,ass and mouth.
I am a 50 yrs old housewife. I have a23 yrs old nephew who has just graduated and was preparing to start a career. One day he came to visit me. My husband was away so I asked him to spend the night in my place. I have a habit of sleeping while watching TV so he kept watching it while I went into deep sleep. As he told me later, my dress went up so he was able to see my voluptuous thighs. My underpants shifted so he was able to see the slit of my cunt. This made his cock hard and he could not control himself any longer so he took his shirt off, took his cock out, went to me and in one push plunged it in my cunt and pumped hard. I took few seconds before realizing what was being done to me. I resisted, saying "No you should not do that" but this excited him further so he held me down kissing my lips and neck, sucking my ear, telling me how sexy I was while fucking me like wild animal. My resistance subsided and I let him have his way with me till he exploded in a powerful orgasm. I tried to push him off me saying that he should not have done what he did. Some tears ran down my face. He held me tightly telling me that he loved me, and that I am so sexy that he could not control himself. He begged me to forgive him. He kept kissing my lips, neck and sucking my ear. This pleased me and I told him that my husband has lost interest in me years ago.
Then I asked did he really think I am sexy and he said yes kissing me passionately. Then he turned me around; my tears have been replaced by a little smile so he kissed me again inserting his tongue into my mouth. I moaned so he took off my clothes till I became naked. I did not resist so he kissed me again guiding my hand to his cock, which I milked to hardness, while he fingered my cunt. When he became ready he inserted his cock again into my cunt and began long deep strokes, which eventually turned into quick thrusts. I orgasmed which was my first since quite a long time. He continued pounding my cunt till he filled me with cum.
He went to the bathroom, washed his cock then came back to me. I did not even try to cover myself so he offered me his cock to suck. I hesitated a bit since I have never sucked a cock but with a little encouragement I put it in my mouth sucking its head while rubbing it. That was enough to get him going again so he turned me around filling my cunt with his cock while playing with my clit using one hand while the other hand played my her tits. This combined assault made me moan with pleasure and after few minutes we both came noisily. He turned me again to my back and went onto my clit like a hungry animal holding both my hands so that I could not move away. I moaned loudly begging him to stop which he did not since I was grinding my cunt at his face enjoying what he was doing. Few minutes of suck made me erupt like a volcano. I was panting heavily begging him to stop but he had one more hole to fill so he turned me around "again", lubricated his cock with spit and went deep into my virgin ass. I was too exhausted to resist so he pumped hard till he filled my ass with cum. Then we went to sleep tired but satisfied.
The next day I was in the kitchen preparing breakfast but he wanted me for desert first. As he approached me I said that we should not do it again and that it was wrong but he insisted on having his way with me. He held me tightly, kissing my lips and neck, sucking my ear and when I moaned he raised my dress squeezed my ass cheeks then pulled my underpants down. He went onto my clit sucking then as I rocked with his attack on my clit he brought a chair so I put my foot on it allowing him better access to my clit. Few minutes of sucking made me shudder in a powerful orgasm. He turned me to face away from him and made me put my foot on the chair, took his hard cock out and plunged into my cunt. As he fucked me I asked him to spare my ass for a while since it was hurting from last night initiation. This excited him further so he pumped faster and harder playing with my clit and twisting my nipples simultaneously till we reached our earth shattering orgasms. Afterwards he smiled and asked me for a breakfast then he picked up my underpants saying that they are not sexy and asked for scissors. I handed them to him and he turned my ordinary dull looking underpants into g-strings on both sides so when I put it on they hide almost nothing. Being a bit overweight they almost disappeared completely within my flesh which made him look at me with such lust I have never seen at anyone before. I begged him to wait till after breakfast so he left the kitchen. After preparing the breakfast I called him but he said we will have it on the floor in the living room. That was odd but I brought it to the living room. We sat facing each other. My dress rose up showing large part of my thighs. He looked at them with lust then pushed the dress further till he was able to see my almost naked shaved pussy. He could not hold himself any longer and asked me to back away a bit then he laid me and had me on the floor there and then. Afterwards we finished our breakfast and he went out promising that he will come for supper.
I slept for a while then after waking up I adjusted my pants the way my lover wanted. As I was preparing supper my husband came. I told him that my nephew would come for supper and may spend the night. He did not comment. When my nephew came they gave each other the cold shoulder. But something came over my nephew and me. I felt that he wanted to assert himself as my man and, funny enough, I liked it and wanted to be his woman. He came to the kitchen, while my husband waited for supper, saying that he will give me a hand. Instead he held me firmly kissing me passionately feeling me up then inserting a finger in my aching ass. I whispered to him that my hobby was in the living room and that I have to prepare the meal so he let me go but kept feeling me up and whenever possible he rubbed his hard cock at my almost naked pussy. I prepared supper with his precum flowing down my thighs. After supper my husband went out and as he closed the door my nephew went on me like a wild animal putting my legs on his shoulders pushing his cock so deep I thought it might come out of my mouth. After few minutes of high quality fuck he came noisily then sucked my clit till I came all over his face. I spent the rest of the evening in his arms trading kisses and touching each other. When my husband came I went to sleep beside him while my nephew slept in the guest room. My husband slept soundly while I dozed for a while but woke a bit later when I felt a hand feeling me up. It was my nephew's. I got up quitely and my nephew took me to his room keeping his finger in my cunt. Once in his room he went on me wildely telling me that I am his woman and asking me to say it so I said to him I am yours do what you want. He put me on my hands and knees and fucked me like there is no tomorrow. After satisfying both our needs I went to sleep beside my snorting husband. My young lover left next morning but came back few days later saying he could not stay away from me which made me happy since I knew how much I wanted him to satisfy me. This night he suggested that I put a sleeping pill in my husband's drink for fun. I did, so after hobby went into his snorting symphony my lover came to me and we fuck while my husband was inches away from us which excited us further. After our first orgasm he told me to tease my sleeping husband (in contrast to the sleeping beauty) as we fuck describing what was being done to me. So I whispered to the sleeping non-beauty: oh husband my lover is pushing his cock in me, oh he is fucking me hard, come on save your wife, oh he has turned me on my hands and knees, oh he is rubbing my clit playing with my nipple while his cock is thrusting hard in me, cannot you stop him? oh I submit to him, oh we are coming.
Few days have passed without seeing my young lover so I was worried and phoned him. He told me that he was busy applying for a loan but it seemed that the manager would refuse. Then he looked at me saying that the manager is known to have a week spot for women and that I may be able to help. I understood what he ment but surprisingly I obliged. It knew that I was willing to do almost anything to keep him. So on the day to meet the manager I had a shower, shaved my pussy, lubricated my ass, wore one of the panties that cover almost nothing then put on a light dress. When we met the manager he looked at me with lust. My lover summarized his application for the loan and when he sensed the manager's refusal he stood up, took me by the arm to the manager then told him my aunt was so concerned about this loan that she accompanied me despite her thigh was giving her great pain. As he said that he bent me over the desk, raised my dress exposing my thighs and most of my cunt to the manager. My lover asked the manager to see for himself and to feel the part giving me pain(which did not exist). The manager felt me up pushing his finger in my cunt then stood behind me, took his cock out and plunged it in me and pounded me with his thin stiff cock. I moaned my approval till he exploded in me. I took a tissue, cleaned myself up thinking that it was all over but my lover told the manager that I would like to suck his cock. I looked at him angerily but I knew I have to oblige so the manger sat on a couch and I knelt before him, took his cock out and sucked. My dress moved up exposing my bottom so my nephew took his cock out and filled up my cunt This made it easier for me to suck the manager's cock and after sprutting his cum over my face and chest he signed his approval of the loan.
My lover has asked me to attend the opening party which consisted only of him and his three partners. After some drinks someone has played some music. My lover danced with me for a while then he put my hands around his neck while his hands went down my dress then pulled it up. I tried to stop him but he brought my hand back to his neck. He pushed both his hands under my dress then pulled it up a little exposing my ass and cunt to his partners. I knew they have were looking since the room became silent apart from the music. He pushed my underpants aside pushing a finger deep in my ass. I whisperd "No please do not" but he pushed it deeper bringing me closer to him . As he kissed me passionatley I felt a hand taking off my dress so here I was almost naked in front of four men. Within seconds I was on the floor riding the cock of one of the partners like a wild cowboy while another partner lubricated his cock and went into my ass in on go. Once the two fuckers adjusted their thrusts which relaxed me the third one offered his cock to me which I sucked hesitantly. Sucking was not my strong point. They took turns on me till we were all satisfied and exhausted. Afterwards my nephew told me that he made me one of the partners. I asked him what was my duty and he said to keep the partners satisfied.
It is nice to offer my nephew a helping hand, cunt
The great thing about .NET is that it is language independant.
.NET Framework which is free (although not open source).
.NET will also be able to run on non-win32 platforms.
.NET in my mind is the IDE.
.NET in an Open Source implementation.
That is the big deal.
You have your
The framework contains all the functions.
Then languages C#, Perl, VBScript, Java etc are modules that fit ontop of the framework.
If you have some functions written in Java, and there are some functions which do just what you need but are only written in Cobol, you can use them.
You can have a single program written using 25+ languages (thats roughly the number of language modules for the framework last time I checked).
You can learn the location of the functions once and the will be in the same place no matter which language you use.
This means that no longer does it matter what language you choose.
Because the language is no longer the important factor to writing an application.
The only hassles you might encounter using other languages is comprehending the code contributed to your application by other programmers.
Mono sounds great, as applications written using
This is a great achievement.
The most impressive componet of
I would really like to see the features provided by Visual Studio
Lab_rat
http://www.elitegeek.org/
Join us, share your knowledge.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
Suppose that I decided to use .NET on Windows. I look around, and find that they support Perl. Cool, so I go and use some Perl libraries in various places. Perl is as cross-platform as it gets, I am fine. Right?
.NET sucks goat d*ck on handling dynamic languages. Since Perl on .NET was too slow, even by .NET standards, its "integration" is through a custom modification that exports a COM interface, that is imported into .NET. Works fine on Windows. But on Linux, what then?
No. I am utterly fscked.
Perl uses a dynamic programming model.
And once people get going, how many real applications are going to use Windows forms, or link in some other library, or link in a COM interface from a legacy app, or otherwise become unportable?
Care to guess whether future tools from Microsoft will "encourage" you to introduce such dependencies?
Thanks, but no thanks. I have had to work with Microsoft APIs too much for my taste. That is why I try not to now.
It appears that the reason you didn't choose .NET was based entirely on emotional, rather than technical reasons.
Is this normally how you make decisions?
VS.NET is slower than frozen mud
.Net SDK.
.NET with Windows to the point that Mono will never work.
.Net is the problems they solved for developers.
.NET crap every year and Mono will play catch up for a year so it finally works again just as MS is releasing a new incompatible version.
.NET.
.NET, and Sun has certainly been less supportive to developers with their Java than Microsoft is being with .NET.
Buy a new machine. One that handles VS.NET well will set you back about $500.
Give me a good text editor and command line tools any day.
They are there, in all their glory. If you want to do everything by hand you can. Save yourself some money and just download the
Microsoft is going to integrate and complicate
The point of Mono is not to be 100% cross-platform compatible. The purpose is to provide a similar development environment for Linux/Gnome. If you read Miguel's commentary what impresses him most about
Now at a very base level, there is some compatibility. You have the same language syntax with C#, and it sounds like they are using the same IL assembly calls. But you are going to be missing many of the custom Windows libraries. But is that important? Wouldn't you expect custom libraries evolve for Linux specific features?
MS will release new
Why is this important to you?
In the past, Microsoft has either presented an "open" standard, or pushed someone else's open standard, only to hijack it in the end, to the detriment of non-Windows users and developers.
But then so have non-Windows developers. Netscape, Sun, there are many examples. Even GNU is guilty of this, as I can no longer compile many open source programs with the tools that come with commercial unix because of extensions added to GNU make and GNU cc.
I think the Open Source community would be better off backing a web technology like J2EE and not
Why? J2EE is technically inferior to
I think Java has a good record for working everywhere consistantly.
One of our foreign development shops just looked into running their web app they wrote with BEA's Weblogic on a different J2EE implementation. They can't do it without extensive recoding because each Java implementation contains custom stuff to differentiate themselves. In this case it had something to do with database connection caching, or something, which wasn't added by Sun in the J2EE specs but offers signifigant performance gains.
How closed-source keeps alive is by moving to new places so the open-source (and any competitor) is always playing catch-up. It doesn't matter if this is a good technology so long as they get the name out there, and their competitors can't claim to have 'X' feature.
But you don't just add any feature. You choose something that makes the differences irrelevant.
DOS has different characters for line-breaks than Unix, or Mac. Rather than standardising line-breaks the platforms move to XML.
Software for Windows can't run on Linux or Mac. The operating system matters. Rather than making abstraction and platform-specific libraries they place a layer that makes the operating system irrelevant. Sun did it with Java, MS did it with .NET.
It's all about placing layers ontop that makes quibbles irrelevant. I believe that's the plan.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Windows NT on the Alpha was discontinued because Compaq but DEC and then pulled their support of Windows-on-Alpha. At one point DEC engineers worked on Microsoft's campus - Compaq removed 'em. Microsoft didn't have much choice after that.
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I'm still trying to figure it out. At first I head all about using .net and web application service providers - kinda what CORBA or DCOM does - run this procedure over there and give me the results.
.net and run it on anyplace that supports .NET - much live Java does.
It also sounds like you can write something in a language as long as it does nothing other than pure
So, is it basically Java with DCOM/RPC stuff built in using XML to pass data back and forth?
More like -1, Unfunny.
We need a "-1, Wrong" moderation...
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Yes! Give me .Net! I can hardly wait to run all of the windows apps including the lates viri!
I really think that Linux is missing out on the fun. I mean sure, it's stable and secure but what adventure is there in that? I want to wonder every time I boot up if I'll see: "You have been hacked by the Windoz Nukum Worm! Hard drive formatting now...."!
Oh yes! Why should Windows users have all of the fun?
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
He flat out lies. Every time he says something about Mono, he contradicts himself. In this article, he says, "our main interest is Windows Forms." But in several recent postings to the lists, he claims that Ximian have no interest in Windows.Forms because Microsoft is rumored to be abandoning it in favor of something better which is in developement now. He claims they will only use GTK# for development. If they do that, they have pretty much ruled out Windows users as targets for their products. This big mouth needs to get his shit together.
The problem is that reaching the final 5% of the market typically requires more than 5% additional work; so, all other things being equal, the return on your investment is lower for the company trying to attain 100% of the potential market. I would probably invest in the 95% company, but that's just me...
The talking paperclip was also supposed to change the way we do work in offices all around the world. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 300 times, sink an industry, hurt an economy and what do we do ? We re-invent the Microsoft square wheel and call it MONO.
. Surely they will not shift standards on us;
. surely they will not hide APIs on their implementations;
. surely they will not "extend" their product and introduce imcompatibilities;
Yea, I see a future of no pain for adopters of MONO...
".NET could be the biggest blunder of Microsoft's history, taking away the only advantage they really got (a huge software library)."
.NET apps do you think will be allowed to run on "untrusted OSes?"
I use to think that way too but with Microsoft's DRM push how many
So, like you said. At least we won't be any worse off then we already are... or are we overlooking something?
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Netscapel adium
.Net?
x
Javascript
Kerberos
Java
OpenGL
Pal
And you still look at
look the other way
apache
xml
perl
python
zope
sendmail
linu
xfree
mozilla
staroffice
vim
emacs
isnt this much better?
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... i think you have kde confused with gnome
Fools! Don't you understand the secret to Microsoft's success? They dont' allow themselves to be successfully cloned, but when they clone something someone else invented, they eventually do it better. Take the lead and don't never back!
There is very little emotion in either my post or my decision.
.NET Framework?"
.NET was not taken as the platform of choice and the reasons were not technical. I think .NET will certainly be competent, as the technical lead was the guy behind Delphi.
.NET. The possibilty of that occurring moves .NET to the back of the pack as their counterparts can already do what I need without that extra weight looming over the project.
The question posed by the article was "Would you use an open-source implementation of the
I listed the reasons why
I am a GPL software author. C# is an unproven new language to assess in my choices. I am absolutely going to judge the likely future of a language by looking at the past history of the company who will be managing its development.
Microsoft has quite openly stated that they think GPL is a virus, and there has been rumblings of making it illegal to use their development tools in the creation/conjunction of GPL software or libraries (which is their right to do).
However, a major software project is a large commitment of time--porting to another language down the road is unlikely to be trivial. if Microsoft takes their familar road with C#, and my code becomes illegal to compile, or I now everyone who wants to work on the software now has to fork over $500 a year for a MS-blessed C# compiler to be able to contribute to the GPL project, I will have regretted my choice of
But the results also matter. Here are some development snapshot screenshots, fresh off a clean compile on Linux and MSW, built with wxWindows with no MFCs, Microsoft dlls or anything else that can be made illegal or prohibitively expensive later on:
http://www.clinicalexam.com/pluckerdesktop/tour
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Cast a Cold Eye
On Life, on Death
Horseman, pass by
--W.B. Yeats' gravestone
If you don't feel right killing someone, you don't do it, do you?
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
The 'real' problem with AWT is that is was implemented too damn fast. I read that the AWT was originally implemented in about a month. Notice that they changed the event model from 1.0 to 1.1? Radical change, if you look at the old model. Basically the design is bad but you can't change it, you have to start over.
Swing is great on paper, but only if you consider that it will never be fast. Since all you're stuff is drawn to a virtual screen and then to the real screen. This ensures true cross platform compatability,but again you lose any hope of speed.
I agree that there should be some comprimise inbetween pure java and java with JNI extensions, as there should be a way to compile java ahead of time, and disregard the whole class loading and security features for an application that is precompiled. Maybe an open source project is needed, like gjc, but to the next level.
Course I believe in making the wheel rounder and not reinventing it everytime the old one gives you a crappy ride.
A resonably skillfull troll you are. Not
Looking at most of the postings here, allthough most of them are posted by non-developers and brainless collegekids, I can only think: what a sad bunch of people. .NET is one hell of a platform with a very well thought out API, documentation and complete functionality. Now there is this Linux developer and his team at Ximian who ports that platform to Linux and all the fools at /. are able to do is cry out what a crap .NET is, how Miquel is a slave of MS, oh sorry, M$, and that Mono will suck as .NET already does.
*RRRRT*
If Mono fails on Linux, Linux is dead. Be aware of that.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Java is always going to be more portable than anything involving C# and .NET. Microsoft are not creating these technologies for the good of the community. While Sun may well not be in it for the good of the community either, their intentions seem less evil and they are pro Unix (and pro Linux to some extent).
While I am a GNOME user at present I will be moving back to KDE when this stuff makes its way into GNOME proper. I imagine many people will do the same.
Microsoft is as inept as they come. Unfortunately, Microsoft's control of the OS, and their willingness to break the law, has allowed them to knock out their superior competitors.
Let's look back...
Microsoft was losing against DR-DOS. So Microsoft added a phony error message, and started a smear campaign to undermine people's trust in DR-DOS. They also added secret calls to Win95 to make it incompatible with DR-DOS.
Microsoft was losing to Geoworks, until they made changes to DOS to cause Geoworks to break.
Microsoft couldn't beat WordPerfect, so they supplied faulty API calls to make WordPerfect unreliable and slow, while using secret API calls in MS Word.
Word and WordPerfect were fast losing marketshare to Ami Pro, until Microsoft changed the function-key API in Win95 to cause the best feature of Ami Pro to break.
Microsoft couldn't beat Java, so they decided to break the law, and sabotage it, as well as committing fraud:
http://java.sun.com/lawsuit/051498.unfair.html
> the "strategic objective" is to "kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market."
> "at this point its [sic] not good to create MORE noise around our win32 java classes. Instead we should just quietly grow j++ share and assume that people will take advantage of our classes without ever realizing they are building win32-only java apps."
Microsoft's own people admitted that they couldn't beat Netscape:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
> "I don't understand how IE is going to win. The current path is simply to copy everything that Netscape does packaging and product wise. Let's [suppose] IE is as good as Navigator/Communicator. Who wins? The one with 80% market share."
> "Pitting browser against browser is hard since Netscape has 80% marketshare and we have 20%. . . . I am convinced we have to use Windows -- this is the one thing they don't have. . . . We have to be competitive with features, but we need something more -- Windows integration. If you agree that Windows is a huge asset, then it follows quickly that we are not investing sufficiently in finding ways to tie IE and Windows together."
So, Microsoft resorted to sabotaging the Netscape product, as well as interfering in Netscape's contracts, including what could be classed as extortion:
> "We will bind the shell to the Internet Explorer, so that running any other browser is a jolting experience."
> "Apple let us down on the browser by making Netscape the standard install." Gates then reported that he had already called Apple's CEO [Gil Amelio] to ask "how we should announce the cancellation of Mac Office...."
> "Though the language of the agreement uses the word "encourage," I think that the spirit is that Apple should be using [IE] everywhere and if they don't do it, then we can use Office as a club."
But Microsoft has a problem now, because direct sabotage only works against products that run on Windows, and some other forms of cheating only work when not under the watchful eye of the courts, or when people aren't watching out for them.
Thus, much of Microsoft's recent propaganda has failed miserably.
And Microsoft still hasn't managed to defeat Java, Unix, or now Linux. Even Netscape has managed to survive and is coming back for a rematch (this time backed by Linux, Sony Playstation, and a dozen other non-MS platforms).
Microsoft may have to resort to competing.
And Microsoft has never won a fair competition.
> The only goals .NET and MONO will accomplish are:
.NET will accomplish are:
.Net -- is going to *prevent* Microsoft from gaining the new monopoly that they seek.
.Net, considering how Microsoft has been tying .Net into their OS, and all of their development tools? Have you seen the shelves of books on .Net development at the bookstore?
.Net to move their applications to a platform (i.e. Mono) that does not tie them to Windows, does not tie them to any Microsoft services or security protocols, and does not require any payments to Microsoft. Do you really think that's what Microsoft wants???
Hmmm, messy. I think I'll split that up, so I can respond properly.
> The only goals
> 6)supports Microsoft's MONOpoly.
Correct. Microsoft's intention is to use their current Windows monopoly to gain a new monopoly on the development of Internet applications and services.
> The only goals MONO will accomplish are:
> 6)supports Microsoft's MONOpoly.
Wrong. In fact, the opposite is true. The existance of Mono -- an Open Source *alternative* to
Do you really think that the disappearance of Mono would slow down the progress of
Mono allows developers who use
Come on. Think it through.
Would I use an open source implementation of .Net? Well, if I want to host on Linux, then it is my only choice, so yes...
But why would I want to use an open source version (particularly in it's current state of development) on Windows? I can download all the SDK etc from Microsoft for free - it's only the IDE that I would have to pay for, and there are free alternatives to that... For as long as I use Windows, and I can download a free cli-based SDK from MS, an open source version would have to offer compelling reasons (in terms of less bugs, fixing bug/security issues, performance) otherwise there is no point.
In the real universe, it's M$loth's excuse to port the
What's 'M$loth' ? And what does the DoJ crap has to do with the quality of
There's also nothing new under the sun. Running other language environments ("hosting", my ass) has been done ever since emacs was written in lisp running on a C-based machine.
Fyi: Lisp is interpreted, C# and the other 20 or so languages for
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
The first day I learned that Ximian is financing the .NET project, I and my 28 friends moved to KDE.
Dear Bill, do you have a
GNOME 4 will be written with MONO's C#. Read his interviews at the register etc. I do not like .NET. Even it will help Linux for couple of things, I believe it will help more M$. Look how Miguel is talking about Microsoft etc on Mono site. He is being extremely careful to not to put a grain of dust on M$. This is not something I like. I will use my right to protest and will NEVER use any MONO supported software, or GNOME. If it becomes a big hit on Linux, ok, it is time to move to Free BSD.
Its all. :)
Dear Bill, do you have a
Standards is nothing. Totally useless. AND, MS did not give important parts of the .NET to the ECMA. ALSO, Ximian is FINANCING MONO. Thus, there is no Ximian in my future life.
Its all.
Dear Bill, do you have a
Every .NET implementation helps M$ more than it helps that platform. MONO is helping MONOpolist more than it is helping to M$. I will never use it.
Icaza can keep licking Billy's balls. I definately won't.
Dear Bill, do you have a
I have yet to see a Microsoft tool (or any other tool) that lets me write code faster. Tools require time and effort to use. It's much better to just to get it right the first time.
I also think wxWindows is by far the best cross platform C/C++ toolkit around right now: it's free for both non-commercial and commercial use, runs on lots of platforms, can use native widgets, is mature, and has tons of functionality. Many more open source projects should use it.
But calling this a "true innovation" is ridiculous. Both .NET and Java are decades old technology. Neither Microsoft nor Sun "innovated" there. Except for the snazzier graphics, people were building the same kind of VM systems and object-oriented languages in the 1970s and early 1980s.
at once, after the big performance hit they got. They tried to call some ActiveX components from .NET runtime.
.NET my ass!!!!
Dear Bill, do you have a
Not only are these libraries not standardized, they are likely to be protected by patents.
That's FUD. You can't protect "libraries" by patents, only inventions. And there are unlikely to be many patentable inventions in the APIs of common GUI and OS libraries.
ultimately Sun just owns the Java name, not all the implementations.
There is effectively only one Java implementation: Sun's and its derivatives. And since there is no standard for even the core language and libraries, there aren't going to be any others, only some tinkering with things vaguely like Java.
Uh..has anyone seen a .NET app? I for one, think it's vaporware.
".NET App Hunter heh, suching for the aylusive .Net App! 'ays a wiley bugger! And ye' 'ave to be very careful when ye' approach 'im! 'Ee might jest disappear! POOF! Before ye' can even get a glimpse of 'im!"
You are a complete idiot Iamthefallen. You can also learn 100 languages more if you want to. Idiot. :)
Dear Bill, do you have a
For some reason. :)
Dear Bill, do you have a
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why I should want this .Net stuff at all.
I'd like to shed a bit of light regarding the .NET Framework.
.NET Framework is a free download for Windows users, and MS plans on implementing it on other platforms as well. This has always been their plan, so that you can write a program in Windows and have it work on Linux, Mac, etc.
.net framework is shown to not be living up to the requirements of the original framework.. which would be very bad from a development point of view.
.net framework and sdk for free with windows update.
Firstly, the
Secondly, I wouldn't trust an open source version. It's not that I don't like open source, and that they wouldn't do a good job. But I'm sure MS is not going to let you know every little nook and cranny of the framework which is basically a bunch of libraries and compilers.
What may end up happening is a year down the road the open source
Imagine writing a program in c# and it doesn't work properly. But the coding is all correct.. What a nightmare..
Just like to point out, MS is not making cash off of the framework, but off the visual studio section. Anyone with windows can get the
Miguel is a traitor. :) He only thinks about his fame and fortune. :) He likes licking Billy's balls. :) Lay lay loooom. :)
Dear Bill, do you have a
Do you know what it takes to run .NET applications? A 20 mb download of the runtime!! Crap!! This isn't the SDK folks. It is only the runtime. Take a look at it here:
? ur l=/downloads/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/001/82 9/msdncompositedoc.xml
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp
I was ready to download this and try it out but I'm not gonna install another piece of bloated crapware on my machine. Sheesh! 20 mb. That'll take forever to download. At least the Java runtime is only 9 mb. I think the Java SDK is 30 mb.
The idea behind the .NET framework is also write once, run anywhere. The Mono people just haven't implemented the System.Windows.Forms namespace yet. Once they get that working, a properly written .NET component will use Windows controls or GTK# widgets depending on the platform.
RTR
Stupid mods LOL!
I know I can (or will be able to) under the CLR.
Could you tell me what definition you are using for the word know? Does it mean anything more than "A salesman promissed me"?
I'm not definitely saying that you are wrong. I've seen attempts to port Basic, so there are, indeed, those who thing it a reasonable thing to do. But all of the VB code that I've ever seen depends so heavily on platform specific libraries, that I have strong doubts. And it will take a lot more than a salesman's promisses before I believe that MS will actually port their libraries to Linux.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
.net is crap so is java I hate the whole interpreted byte code thing, but if you want to use it thats your problem
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that
Francis Smit
I'm a huge fan of .Net. I don't mind using Windows clients, but I want to use Unix/Linux servers. What you're doing is going to make that possible, and I think it's great. Thank you.
As for the scope of your project, feel free figure it out as you go along like all the rest of us do. The guy mouthing off about your "lies" is an idiot. If you have to choose a technology for an upcoming project and you can't afford to be wrong, you'd better choose from among technologies that already exist. What you are offering is technolgies that *might* exist, that so many of us *want* to exist, but might not if things don't work out, and even if they eventually do exist nobody knows for sure when they'll be ready for production use. That's the way it works for big companies, small startups, OSS projects, pretty much everyone creating new tools. That's what "in development" means to project planners with any sense.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Ok, uh. The GPL is a virus and virtually everyone in O.S. land now refers to it as that. Just because MS coined the phrase does not mean they were wrong or mean or evil. They saw the truth and spoke it. Now eveyone else sees the truth and are wearing it as a badge of honor.
You gota love this one, a little nugget in the C# runtime, the use of COM/dlls with an unsafe keyword. Wonder how many M$ apps will use this for com libs, that will ummm not show up on mono (i.e. remain closed and guarded), so your linux app may run on .NET but I don't see Word .NET running on your linux box any time soon.
Come to your senses. Also, all the major players in Application Server market, IBM, HP, Fujitsu, JBoss, Sun, BEA, etc., ALL OF THEM SUPPORT J2EE. .NET is supported only by Microsoft. .NET on Linux may become reliable maybe in 3 years. If you check out Gnome 2, you can easily see that it is a failure. The guys are not capable to create a robust system anyways. Even if they are, creating application server is not easy thing. Even JBoss is there for more than 3 years, and this year, they reached production quality.
All the giants in the market have Java based application servers. IBM WebSphere is in its 8th version or something like that, and you say, everyone, will leave this robust, already sold to thousands of customers products and start .NET on Linux, which is new, and untested.
How many times that we should say that .NET's important parts are not given to the standards? Even if they were, what standards would do? Absolutely nothing. Standards my ass. If MS change .NET out of the standards, what will they loose?
Now, monopolist wannabe Icaza changed his mind, started to say, we will not support WinForms at all. Pheewwww. Big deal. I never believed that they can anyway. Even if they did, M$ wouldn't let them.
Please utter some intelligent sentences or don't write at all and spend my precious time.
Dear Bill, do you have a
Aren't you Mig?
Dear Bill, do you have a
As I told you before, MONO is helping M$, more than it is helping to Linux. :)
"GNOME" Leader my ass. You are just an idiot. Gnome 2 sucks anyway.
Dear Bill, do you have a
:) Thanks. :)
Dear Bill, do you have a
The .NET framework is excellent stuff!
Go mono!
datrus
For another example see structs in C#. Structs look just like classes when they are declared and used. But they work very differently. Using structs can result in very unexpected results, as you can see in this example: www.geocities.com/csharpfaq/test1.html. For more information about structs in C# see: www.geocities.com/csharpfaq/structs.html
Java caught on among programmers because of two reasons: WORA and simplicity. Is C# WORA? Microsoft has been telling us for many years now that WORA will never work, so it is safe to assume C# will never support WORA. Is C# simple? To answer this last question, consider the fact that the C# statement x.y += a[b]; can contain upto 10 hidden function calls, including properties, indexers, operator overloading, user-defined implicity type conversion operators, etc. For more information visit www.geocities.com/csharpfaq/test2.html
C# has neither of the features that attracted programmers to Java: No WORA and no simplicity. This language is no threat to Java.
Are you really Katz in disguise? 'Cause you take just as long to make a simple point.
It's a really good write-up of your experience. I agree with most of your points. There is a need for a network transparent display system, however. The question in my mind is does it have to suck just as bad at the console as at the end of a 10mbit ethernet connection? Why is my desktop on a fucking 8xAGP card if I get just as good performance remote hosted to a machine in the lab? wtf?
Oh, well. I don't use linux anymore either. I put it back on the laptop or a machine at work or home a couple times a year to play; I just use Solaris and rarely M$Windows. I seem to live just fine without a lot of the crap most people I know swear they can't live without. (Who really cares about 95% of the crap MS Word can do? It's excel that I miss the most.)
Just leave my HDTV and Tivo alone and we'll all be fine. And now for something completely different....
A fine hefewiezen...
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run