Slashdot Mirror

There are compiled languages that are arguably better than C, such as Eiffel, Modula-3, and D. These may be promoted by companies, but surely not controlled. C is popular because it's simple and powerful, is good enough, and has inertia. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

Sun Microsystems made claims of an incredible language that just weren't true. They claimed the language would be revolutionary and that software written for it could work everywhere. Partially true but no one wants a slow computer either. The whole reason people buy new computers is for speed.

Java is not liked nor used by everyone. No one wants it on their computer. No one wants large apps written in java.

Don't be part of the herd mentality. Just because Sun or Microsoft tells you to use their software doesn't mean you have to use it.

Try these languages if you don't like java.
modula-3
squeak
netrexx
rexx
euphoria
python
xbasic.org
tcl/tk

Of course, for a more radically "innovative" approach, Microsoft already hired Simon Peyton-Jones, of some "fame" in the world of Functional Programming, and furthermore, he already had C--, Still Another "BCPL stepchild."

There are probably a whole pile of "cool things" that have been deployed internally that might actually be good things that will never see the light of day because, as Matt Welsh observes,

What you end up with, after running an operating system concept through these many marketing coffee filters, is something not unlike plain hot water.

That can apply as well to languages as to OSes...

More reasonable alternatives would include:

• Modula-3 , in which is written Spin.
• Or perhaps Oberon, which has been used to construct several OS-like environments.
• Or perhaps even Eiffel, whose Design By Contract approach makes claims that C++ can provide anything describable as rock solid look very silly.
• Based on the number of language compilers being built using ML, I'd think it to perhaps be a candidate. The ability to do heavy-duty static type inference would, not unlike with Eiffel, make claims of C++ being "rock solid" look pretty sad.

Yes, these languages don't have syntax that slavishly resembles C. But it's not as if the actual semantics of C++ or Java are actually that much like C...

While I would like to believe this, I strongly suspect its not true. Bjarne Stroustrup has shown no remorse for inflicting the disaster that is C++ upon the world. Indeed, you could argue that Larry Wall was merely the unwitting victim of a hacker culture that values the "quick and dirty hack" over the "spend some time thinking about it" approach. Unless you are a total moron (like the majority of Slashdot readers) you will realise that theoretically sound languages such as Modula-3 and Smalltalk are the wave of the future. You either have TRUE strong typing (as in M3) or you GET RID OF TYPING ALLTOGETHER (as in Smalltalk). The half-assed fence-sitting characterised by C++ and Perl is typical of the shoddy thinking of many so-called computer experts (Stroustrup and Wall in particular).

Now, of course I hate Perl and C++ as much as the next guy, but what I find more worrying is the underlying agenda of moral relativism implicit in Perl's slogan "there's more than one way to do it". It starts off with allowing the coder to use an associative array or a list, but eventually it will serve as a "gateway language" to even more screwed up languages such as TCL and Java, and from there onto "alternative" lifestyles, body piercing and fringe politics like Socialism.

While banning Perl superficially seems like a very attractive solution to the problem, look deeper and you will see this is not the answer. Banning Perl will simply drive it underground, and make it all the more attractive to young impressionable coders. Far better to educate these youngsters that there are safer alternatives out there, and they won't be labelled as "square" for using them. After all, who is more "cool" - the ravaged and weary Perl addict slumped over his poorly documented spaghetti code that looks like line noise, or the bright eyed and alert young coder with his clear and easily understood Python source ?

thank you.

I'd like to believe that. In the UK the Germans have a strong reputation for being engineering driven, rather than marketing-led. Its interesting to note that most of the major automobile manufacturers have moved to front-wheel drive for cost reasons, while the German manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes) refuse to compromise their engineering integrity. Their cars ship in Germany with much stiffer suspension than the rest of Europe and the US, as German roads are so well-maintained and engineered that a harsh ride would not be a problem, and there are almost no potholes.

It seems to be the same with domestic appliances, compare a US built washing machine or similar item with something from AEG or Siemens, the difference is stark.

I'm surprised that a German operating system has not come along to topple Billys bugfest. I am sure it would not get out of the door with 63000 bugs.

Finally, Modula-3 seems much more popular in Germany than elsewhere, perhaps again because of the engineering background.

Overall then, Germany (unlike many others) has a culture which places high value on engineers, and derives considerable economic advantage from it.

Would you agree with me and thousands of others, that in a nutshell, C++ sucks, whereas Modula-3 and Smalltalk rule ?

I followed m3.org to the standard interface source. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the only introspection is in support of the compiler (no runtime access to methods by name), and there seems to be no security at all. IMHO Smalltalk was a much larger influence on Java (at least those proprietary binaries were portable to a few supported platforms, and the runtime is even more powerful).