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Linux 2.4.0-test1 Released
Chris Cheney writes: "Linux 2.4.0-test1 is out with a note from Linus for more details. Why does all the cool stuff come out after potato is frozen? " With Linus being gone for three weeks, Alan is likely to maintain a 2.4.0-ac series. It's getting closer...
I am running the 2.3.99-pre series since 2.2.x won't work correctly with my Adaptec card. 2.3.99-prex/2.4.0-testx are stable enough to use, so long as you learn the no-nos and avoid those things till they're fixed. (The two I've hit are: Don't mount a filesystem via loopback; it hangs. VMWare only works with particular versions of 2.3.99-prex.) So, it's usable on a desktop machine. But if you put it on a server or such at this point, you're foolish.
...Alan likely to maintain a 2.4.0-ac series.
/. effect finally gone too far? Is it any coincidence that Alan's initials are AC?
An Anonymous Coward-series kernel? Has the
If I understand it correctly you don't need them unless you're debugging the kernel. So yeah, most people can safely delete them. :-)
Then I don't feel like such an old-timer any more.
- A.P. (props to the old school)
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I saw a few similar answers to yours and the all left out a _vitally_important_ step.
You need to reboot before you build the modules so they can be built under the kernel they are meant for
Damn... now I have to nitpick...
On my systems its menuconfig, not menu_config
make bzImage will build a kernel but won't install it, it will leave it in the build tree (/usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot specifically (at least for x86 kernels))
It's possible to use this kernel but you need to install it by hand.
I have been ever since I picked up that copy of Linux Journal (I think!) last fall/winter with 2.4 as the cover-feature.
LOL I was reading something like that yesterday while waiting to get interviewed for an uber-cool linux admin job.
"If Santa was good to you, you have kernel 2.4......"
T'was a January issue of a linux rag, not sure if it was Linux Journal though.
Well, since nobody else has replied to this one yet, I'll jump in and say that the best thing to do would be to try it and see. :^)
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
do I need to say more? The fact is that red hat makes changing the kernel damn' near impossible w/o installing the next system upgrade. Try replacing the kernel on some of the most recent red hat releases and everything breaks (well....upgrade red hat in general and everything breaks....but that's another issue).
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
Just to add to this, if you were using "some other OS", even some of the other BSD/GPL systems, you wouldn't even know about these bugs until they were fixed, and probably wouldn't even know that kernel 2.4 was coming out soon at all.
The advantage is that this list is posted so that people that can write kernel code know what is on the plate so they can help if they want.
-Erik-
So instead of using the only distribution that seamlessly upgrades itself over the network, you're using which other distribution that's more current? I understand that software released in the past grows old after time, but unless Red Hat, LinuxPPC, Slackware, Turbolinux, Mandrake, and friends each have a time machine, I don't see how their situation would be any different--their releases get old at the same rate as Debians', but they're less convenient to upgrade.
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I don't know what the previous poster was about but I'm running 2.3.99-pre9 on BP6 with the root partition on a disk hooked to the HPT366/UDMA66 controller.
Your comments are generally obnoxious and don't further the discussion. I too had a problem with compiling my first kernel over three years ago and I had read the HOWTO and consulted helpful web pages. It's the little things (and old documentation) that trip most people up. I still don't know what I did wrong the first time, but I luckily did it on a test machine. You seem to have little patience for people without your wealth of experience in all things. Please stay in your ivory tower and continue your post-doc studies until you can be nice and play with the rest of us.
_damnit_
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
> I saw a few similar answers to yours and the all left out a _vitally_important_ step.
> You need to reboot before you build the modules so they can be built under the kernel they are meant for
Ummm no. Modules are compiled against the kernel source, not the running binary. You most certainly do not need to (or want to) reboot before compiling modules.
--
Though I use a Macintosh, I am not a mac-bigot. I just hate Windoze.
So fix it, use 2.2 until 2.4 is actually released (and preferably a few service packs... er... point releases after), or use a different OS. Prerelease software generally tends to be buggy. If you've been running 2.3.x for "a long time now" then you should know this.
--
As far as I can tell the only thing in the directory is the readme. I'm pretty jazzed to try this out and have all the fun and thrills of a not-really-released-yet kernel... but hmmm, no tarball.
Am I reading Linus' readme incorrectly? Doesn't it say "there's a 2.4.0-test1 kernel here"? I assumed that the "doesn't really exist yet" statement meant that its not really the actual 2.4 release and that the later statement is an exception to "... doesn't exist...".
Or does the first statement override all later statements?
Anyway... if anyone knows where it actually is could you let us know?
This is off topic, but when will potato be released? It's been frozen since the middle of january, isn't it time to release it already? Would any Debian developers care to comment?
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
I think 'make config' is the hardest part. And it's the most important bit - if you are happy with the default set of kernel features, why bother to build a new one?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
i (and probably many of the debian maintainers) would much rather see a kernel that has had almost a year and a half to mature (ie 2.2.x) used in potato than one which is just entering the .0 testing phase. i think trying to cram 2.4.x into potato even if the freeze hadnt happened yet would sacrifice some of debian's well known stability.
--Siva
Keyboard not found.
Keyboard not found.
Press F1 to continue.
What I've always done is just add an entry to lilo.conf that points directly to the compiled kernel in the source tree. call it "test", make it non-default.
Once you've booted the kernel once and made sure everything works as expected, then cp it to the proper place and make it your default kernel.
I don't seem to build many non-bootable kernels anymore, but back in my early Linux days I built quite a few.
If you haven't already, be sure to read the readme that's linked from the story, it's actually kinda neat to see.
:)
:)
I mean, while obviously every is going to find it now that it has been mentioned on Slashdot and likely other sites, it's still neat to find something thats sorta hidden like that.
Perhaps I should upgrade my Linux test box, (Stuck on Windows for my main machines, sadly), it looks like it could be neat.
Jerrith
Sadly to say, but I haven't looked to see what HOWTO comes with the kernels. I just know that years ago when I complied my first one I printed out the KERNEL-HOWTO and followed it step-by-step. I'm interested to know what HOWTO you are reading that made it seem so complicated?
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I'm thinking of giving this a try at home on my RedHat 6.2 desktop. Anything that needs to be updated on 6.2 before attempting to use these kernels?
you have to swap in the newly compile System.map file so lilo and your system don't have hissy fits.
Really? Hmmm... I just always delete the System.map files and run lilo... seems to work just fine.
I always wondered what they were for :^)
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
The file you should be editting is the top level kernel Makefile. You have to remove the comment at the start of the line
#export INSTALL_PATH=/boot
I have looked on 3 different mirrors and cannot find it. There is a v2.4 directory, but this just contains the README-2.4 file. The latest I can see in the testing directory is 2.3.99pre10-3. So where is 2.4.0-test1 kernel source?
LVM support, and USB support is enough for me. LVM makes disk partitioning and administration MUCH easier. Hello, to playing with new filesystems!
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
A lot of senior developers. We let the newbies slave :-)
Hehe...
:-)
That has got to be the funniest thing I have read in a looooooooooong time
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Compliling my kernel requires me to enter two lines.
# make menu_config
here you configure the kernel
# make dep clean; make bzImage; make modules; make modules_install; make install
ok now this build the kernel and the modules. Install's the modules. Create's all the new files in /boot including symlinks for vmlinuz, vmlinuz.old, System.map. It also asks if you want to run lilo, if lilo fails (or you say no) it'll offer to make a boot disk. So long as your /etc/lilo.conf is setup to use /boot/vmlinuz for default kernel /boot/vmlinuz.old for old kernel (i.e. your working kernel) and /boot/System.map you will probably never need to play with /boot or lilo.conf again, especially inexperienced users. How more automated could you want. The problem is none of the distributions seem to do this as standard, and its a shame.
--
"I was either onto something, or on something!"
I have been using RedHat distro since 5.0 and I have only once had a problem with kernel compile and recompile and it was because I did not follow the instructions correctly.
......
Hell, if you only follow MaximumLinux magazine kernel compilation guide, written for utter newbies, you will be able to do the job easily.
And btw, I have never read kernel-howto.
Use make xconfig
The kernel needs a Gtk/Gnome-based post-install device configuration tools "a la" make xconfig. (Better sig coming soon
Something like your First-Post-ALizer allready exists for Linux... and Slashdot allready has a patch for it...
No rapid fire posting from a single IP...
Stopped long before you even started... how sad...
In the mean time people keep bitch slapping Slashdot for the moderation system it has with out ever once saying what would be reasonable.
Slashdots moderation system is fine...
It's people who bombard Slasdot that are the problem...
I don't actually exist.
Now's your chance to vote in the kernel 2.4.0 release date poll at http://LinuxNinja.com/!
(Okay, polls are lame, and I'm probably going to take a karma hit for this, but c'mon, this story is stale by now anyway). :^)
Mr. Blake:
Please place your attitude where your head apparently resides.
*If* you are as capable as you imply, why not lend this poor fellow a helping hand and teach him, and many others, something useful. Your comment merely builds the impression that our favorite OS is only for self-important jerks. If that is the case, perhaps I'll switch to something else.
iceaxe
WALSTIB!
> Oh, I know. I just found it rather funny - something seeming to be hidden comes out front. Nothing really special, I guess.
/..org.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was dissing you. I thought your post was funny too. I was just curious how long it actually took for word to leak out, and I posted it because I thought others might be curious too.
BTW, my claim of 11-1/2 hours is modulo whatever differences there are in timezones between kernel.org and
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Well... the secret was safe for a whole 11-1/2 hours. Internet time, no less.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
> If exchanging a kernel is such a dang-blasted important task for any Linux user to know how to do, why is it so complicated?
Yeah, they should make it easy like it is under Windows.
[caveat sarcasm impaired]
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
It Looks like it has been announced now. I haven't been using any of the 2.3.x kernels as I haven't had a need. Now I think I would like to start. Any huge "gotchas" that I should know about before I put this on my backup system?
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Of course, you're just a troll, since anyone capable of typing in "slashdot.org" in the address field readily knows Java needs a VM and people have tried to write kernels in Java and failed :)
:)
As for C++ porting, this has been debated and probably still is, but it isn't going to happen because many people feel there's a performance overhead with the added complexity of OO.
Try, however a "grep goto\ * -r | wc -l" on the kernel sources and you'll be shocked by the extensive usage of "the four letter word". While this is probably efficient, it makes for incomprehensible spaghetti code and should be cleaned up in for 2.5 imho
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
That would be:
:)
make menuconfig
make-kpkg --revision=your_version kernel_image
dpkg -i kernel-image-version.deb
For debian
Greets, Floris
------
--- Your superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons
Oh, I know. I just found it rather funny - something seeming to be hidden comes out front. Nothing really special, I guess.
.sig: File not found.
Dan
ls:
ls:
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?
Very good analogy.
.|` Clouds cross the black moonlight,
The key question is: What is a beta?
Win2k RC1 wasn't a beta, it was a release candidate. Sounds just like kernel 2.4.0-test1, to me. After all, software does not have "alpha", "beta", "release candidate" and "final" "version"s, it evolves continually - those are arbitrary wetware checkpoints.
~Tim
--
~Tim
--
Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
These kind of ignorant comments really annoy me. "A lot of your software is instantly old"? Like what? Give me one good example! The kernel? Please! Enlighten me about a distribution that is currently shipping with 2.4. And who says you can't run the latest kernel anyway? We haven't tried the 2.4.test1 kernel, but we have a debian machine running the latest 2.3.99-pre kernel. As far as other software goes, I think the package maintainers do an admirable job of staying "on the ball with their releases".
Please be a little more informed before spreading FUD about Debian.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
I don't want to Rain on Peoples Parades and stuff But _HOW_ Is this a Test Kernel if there are Bugs that will Corrupt Data and or your working memory?
Translation of "Test", "Don't run this unless you know what you are doing and preferably can send patches to Linux, Alan or whoever"....
I'm actually using FreeBSD.
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
A more messed up language I have never seen. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should go look at freshmeat.
Note the clever Karma whoring below:
Perhaps Microsoft should start writing its OSs in brainfuck - I can't see how it would make them any worse...
Cyano
Don't like my sig? I don't either.
>was Win2000 RC1 beta software or was it the final version?
that's like saying was Win95 a beta for Win98? Of course it's a beta...
The only question that remains is: why was win95(b) stabler than win98, and why was win98 so much better than win98 _second edition_?
Oh, can't I go one day without trolling microsoft? but they do ask for it.
Devil Ducky
Devil Ducky
MY peers would get out of jury duty.
The reason its complicated is because its the kernel.
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
While no one needs to recompile their kernel, it does provide performance increases.
Chris Hagar
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
My lilo.conf contains around 20 entries, because I never remove a old kernel. U never know when U'll gonna need it . :o))
And as far a documentation goes, if you read the kernel HOW-TO you could hve gotten it done (albeit a little outdated I think)
What I fail to understand is how you had to do a "recovery" if you had moved your working kernel to say /boot/vmlinux.old and made another entry in lilo.conf you could have simnply rebooted your old kernel if you had fscked up the one you were building (remember if that is a modular kernel to keep the modules in /lib/modules/ or your system would be unusable anyway.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
So it has proper time to be TESTED before they actually release a STABLE version (2.4.0).
Bitchslapped? Give Rob a bitchslap from bitchslapped.com.
I've gotten a 4: Flamebait before, so I feel for yo9u man!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Only thing I know of is that you MUST upgrade pppd to 2.4.0b2 on > 2.3.99.pre5. Otherwise, you WILL lock up.
Hard reboots SUCK.
(appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
Have you checked out the latest jobs update for 2.4? Take a look: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-05 -25-020-04-NW-KN . I don't know about you, but I think I might wait a little longer on this one...that whole data corruption thing really gets to me. =)
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
You don't *need* to compile the kernel to update the kernel. Most distributions come with a number of precompiled kernels which suit a almost all desktop users. These can be installed by the distributions package manager. Typically these kernels have a large number of modules precompiled. The kernel only loads the modules that you use. You can download updated kernel binary packages from your distributinon's ftp mirror.
Many people like to recompile the kernel. Some of these have special needs or want to try experimental features. Others just want to do it for the geek factor. Chopping out unused features can gain you a few k of ram or a bit more effiecieny and a great deal of personal satisfaction.
Compiling the kernel is not much more difficult than installing a binary. The main problem is the vast array of options. The help in menuconfig gives some clue, but there is a large potential for leaving out a vital feature. I once left out support for virtual consoles - and I couldn't see anything when I booted. Of course I probably could have telnetted into the box, but I didn't realise that at the time. Luckily I always keep the stock kernel as an option in lilo, so backtracking is easy.
Chris
Linus' note ends: ;)
;^)
Have fun. And let's see how many people find this without it even being announced
Linus
Um, yeah, let's see, really. Once it's on Slashdot, it is more or less announced, I'd say.
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
Seriously, I imagine most "normal" Linux users (oxymoron?) upgrade the kernel by installing the new kernel packages provided for their distro. That's what I do on production systems, even though I do sometimes recompile the kernel for test/play purposes on my home system.
There's nothing particularly complicated about the process except figuring out the myriad options. The only way to greatly simplify that is to eliminate them as options. But they are there because they are needed, mostly. Still, if you can think of ways of simplifying the process or better documenting it, I know the whole Linux community will be grateful for your contribution. For example, why not drop a line to the HOWTO author suggesting (politely, one hopes) that the missing information be added. That would be much more productive than ranting on /.
It reminds me of when Starcraft went gold, Blizzard put it up on their web page somewhere, and then sat watching news sites, and their posting boards, it took about 5 maybe 7 minutes for someone to notice and spread the word.
but rather Anderson Consultants kernels.
Say no to software patents.
... rather than "Flamebait". After all, it didn't make fun of Micro$hit, it did not praise Open Source (but made fun of the moderation system), and was full of typoes. So, according to its own criteria, it should be flamebait.
Say no to software patents.
Just put it into the nuker for a couple of seconds, and presto: thawed mushy potato, ready to be served!
Say no to software patents.
ooh brilliant.. i along with a lot of people im sure have been waiting anxiously for this to check out the nice new features.. (i know i know i couldve tried a 2.3.x kernel but hey ive only had bad experiences with devel kernels)
well im glad its finally out..
when everything is working perfectly.. BREAK SOMETHING before something else FUCKS up!
The readme nicely states that you can use make bzlilo to install a new kernel if you have a proper /etc/lilo.conf /boot while make bzlilo puts the new kernel in the root dir. You need to edit /etc/lilo.conf first to point the kernel location to the root dir
What it doesn't mention is that in all new distributions the kernel is put in
You had a backup. You must be an advanced user.
I wrote an article on compiling and installing a new kernel a while back. It can be found here. It outlines the process I use when I build a new kernel
As for the complexity issue, the only hard part is choosing which options you need. There is no way around this. Make needs to know which drivers to compile. There are other ways to make it a little easier (at the expense of time and disk/memory space). IIRC, Solaris uses a completely modular kernel. You could probably get a linux kernel to do this as well. Only thing I can think you'd have to have compiled directly into the kernel is the driver for your hard drive (there may be others, play around with it a bit until you get something that works). Then you could build everything else as a module (say 'm' to everything that will let you). Having never done this before, I have no clue how well it will work. I'm sure there'll be a few replies to this one(hopefully from someone with experiance with this kind of setup), so read those before you try that.
Wow! Anonymous Cowards here on /. have their own Linux?
___
I believe Alan has specified that this duty would fall to the seminal grindcore band Anal Cunt. Not many folks are aware of the fact that the "grind" in grindcore refers to Code Grinding.
-carl. We've got computers, we're tapping phone lines, you know that ain't allowed - Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
You greatly overestimate the average /. reader. I'd say 75% have no idea why kernel written in java is a bad idea.
Proof of that is the fact the aforementioned 2.2.4-test1 kernel isn't in the dir with the readme (as of 10:40 est). Only one other person has bothered to post this.
jrw
A java kernel? You just taged yourself as non programmer.
For java code to run there has to be a JVM loaded. For a JVM to be loaded, there has to be a kernel running. But the kernel is written in java, so there has to be a jvm running. But you can't run a jvm with out a kernel....Loop endlessly.
jrw
I didn't say that I am not an advanced user.. just not an advanced Linux user.
:)
Experienced user.
Doesn't everyone make weekly backups?
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
I think that it may be that 'make bzlilo' part that screwed me.
D'oh!
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
I get errors that the I'm using the wrong kernel version. I gues what you said may be the source of my anxiety.
Ho hum.
The HOWTO just said that you have to update lilo by running '/sbin/lilo'. I did that.
Didn't work.
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
Compiling a kernel for Debian is automated by the make-kpkg script in the kernel-package package.
This compiles the kernel and creates a debian package. When this is installed, the kernel, modules, etc are updated. Then lilo is run so the new kernel will be booted at next reboot.
...except for these unimportant differences:
[ 250 lines of "diff -u" output omitted ]
Don't asusme that the kernels in "testing" are related to anything. The real kernel is in subdirectory v2.4.
I am no advanced Linux user. I know my way around the system well enough to get by however I do run into problem on an almost regular basis.
/usr/doc/HOWTO/Kernel-HOWTO
:)
Now that I've made some sort of introduction, I would like to ask a simple question of the Linux using community: If exchanging a kernel is such a
dang-blasted important task for any Linux user to know how to do, why is it so complicated?
RTFM
less
It is not that tough. It is also something that end users only very very rarely do. IF you can't read the HOWTO and figure out what to do, you are probably going to hose your system anyway.
Oh wait - you did
I don't want to Rain on Peoples Parades and stuff But _HOW_ Is this a Test Kernel if there are Bugs that will Corrupt Data and or your working memory?
Ive been using 2.3.x for a long time now. And After 2.3.43 (IIRC) WHen it didnt like having 33 and 66 ata/dma/whatever HDDs on the same chain and causing file systems to start getting lots of lots of bad memory blocks. And as of 2.3.99 p6 SHM _was_ working as far as i could tell. I was using it and never had any problems... Get this thing fixed already 2.3.x is very much faster than 2.2 and im sick of using buggy software
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
It's written in Python. If you read ESR's piece in Linux Journal last month, this is no surprise at all, but the reception on the kernel list was decidedly cool, on balance.
Do you have any links for that? Cheers.
Complie? I'd say that was pretty original. Don't you trust your computer or something?
Yeah, I started using it when I got this job - we use it to wrap C++ CORBA objects and then write scripts using those. It's a really useful language that makes writing C++ seem really frustrating... :)
People like repetition. It's reassuring.
Ciao
----
FB
If you think the HOWTO you read was out-of-date, check the LDP for newer versions. I believe that a few distro homepages also keep updated lists.
I think I did address his post. He complained about the HOWTO. I responded. He complained about the system.map. I responded. He complained about imagined complexity. I asked for elaboration.
I also wanted to know what happened that was so catastrophic as to warrant a full system restoration. There are ways of testing out new kernels beforehand to avoid such situations. My personal fave is writing the straight bzImage to a floppy and rebooting off that (BEFORE doing anything with lilo or bzlilo!!). If you fscked up, you can just boot off the hard disk like normal, reconfigure, recompile, and try again.
I will take your message to heart, however, and try to be more understanding in the future. I apologise to you and anyone else I may have offended. I didn't mean to sound "high and mighty".
BUT... it is clear that he did not fully read the HOWTO. That's why I say, RTFM. There is such an amazing abundance of Linux documentation on the WWW that no newbie should ever feel like he has nowhere to go.
I know that some of you aren't going to believe me, so here are some selected quotes from the Linux Kernel-HOWTO, v1.0 from June 1999:
Now what was that you were saying, AC?
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
I wonder if that was done in mid-late 2.2? I'll be sure to check on this before my next installation.
Wow, 2.4 is probably going to be one of the best things to happen for me all year!
(... maybe that's not saying much?... ;)
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
Older kernels could be built with "zImage" and installed with "zlilo". "zImage" has a size limit, however, so "bzImage" is the replacement used for newer, larger kernels. "bzlilo" backs up your old kernel (vmlinuz -> vmlinuz.old), puts the new kernel in its place, and reinstalls lilo. If you use "bzlilo", be sure to proofread your lilo.conf before rebooting, especially if you have added options by hand. I've heard of problems with this...
Out of curiosity, what's your average compressed kernel size?
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
I'll have to be on the lookout for those Dogzit MultiGrit serial ports. [grin]
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
Some distros have menu-based configuration programs (like "liloconfig") but these can't be guaranteed to work. Some won't find disks on IDE2 or IDE3. Oh well.
Running "make bzlilo" after compiling your kernel usually sets things up acceptably, including installation of lilo. See the Kernel-HOWTO again.
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
Oooh, this could be very good for my laptop...
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
It's no replacement for a native JDK, though. I've ranted about this many time before, but here are the three paths FreeBSD Java hackers are looking down:
I'm fed up with it. I don't care anymore. As long as I get Java 2 support on Free Unix somehow, I'm happy. Over the past six months I've slowly started using GNU/Linux more, and FreeBSD less. For many reasons. This is one of them. Hail Tux.
Hey, Foogle, didn't I take your old account when the password was posted a while back? ;-)
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
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I like to watch.
I'm really looking forward to 2.4 I'm the kind of guy that, once everything's working and features are in place doesn't upgrade the kernel except for security reasons, but even I'm itching to get my hands on 2.4-stable. I have been ever since I picked up that copy of Linux Journal (I think!) last fall/winter with 2.4 as the cover-feature.
Hell, if I hear good reports about this test kernel, I may just have to use it anyway. Users be damned, I want 2.4!! ;-)
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
FreeBSD and GNU/Linux have strengths in different areas. What are you planning to install on? If you're running a server (of any kind) and want a "rock-solid" OS with stable and mature TCP/IP, FreeBSD is definitely the way to go. GNU/Linux, while good in this area, cannot yet match FreeBSD's stability, especially under high load.
But there are other factors, of course, such as software support. Did you want to run Java servlets? Then you'd be better off with GNU/Linux's now-outstanding Java support (JDK1.2 from Sun and JDK1.3 from IBM). The best you can do for FreeBSD is a port of JDK1.1.8 with the JFC1.1.1 add-on. Not at all optimal.
If this is going to be a personal workstation-type of machine, I'm going to express my (as always) humble opinion and say that GNU/Linux is much better suited for that use. A workstation used for development, graphics, games, or just basic "productivity" will benefit more from GNU/Linux's faster (if not more stable) SMP, driver support, et cetera, than from FreeBSD's stability and excellent networking.
You say you bought the "power pack", which IIRC comes with the latest version of FreeBSD, extra software, and a book. To be frank, the FreeBSD newbie distro. Which means it's most likely going to be used for the "workstation"-type use. But don't regret your decision, for FreeBSD is an excellent OS and you'll [be forced to] learn more, faster, than with your average l337 Red Hat 6.2 distro. And who says you can't have the best of both worlds? LILO will boot FreeBSD; why not dual-boot? You can just download GNU/Linux for free (if you have the bandwidth) or buy one of the $.99 copies.
There's plenty of room for all Unices.
(...provided you have a large enough disk ;-)
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
Java bytecode cannot be run natively. Java is slow and not at all suited for anything resembling a Unix kernel. Don't get me wrong; I love Java. But the thought of writing a Unix kernel with it (which, I'll admit, I've considered doing for kicks) is just silly.
But hey, it's Open Source! If you want to rewrite fifteen million lines of kernel code in Java, be my guest! I'll book you a room at Bedlam.
Unix kernels have been written in C as long as Unix as been around. Unix and C have souls which are interwined. (Only I could be so sentimental about such things, I suppose...:) Change can be good, but Unix and C are inseparable. Because I say so. Grrrrr.
Now I'm not only sure that you're trolling, but that you have no idea what you're talking about. But that's okay. This is Slashdot. Your kind find refuge here. :D
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
Can I safly upgrade my computer to it (the one that all my school work is done on and that I am codependt on) or sould I stay with 2.2.... for a bit longer. if any has tryeded to please let me know.
before you run lilo, make sure your new kernel is where lilo expects it to be. /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/zImage /boot/zImage.new /etc/lilo.conf
my process:
make xconfig, then
make dep
make clean
make zImage
make modules
make modules_install
then
cp
vi
( add appropriate section for your new test kernel )
lilo
tada.
One warning: going from using a distro kernel and module set where there's a module and/or kernel support for everything including the Dogzit Zylo MultiGrit Serial Port, to a custom kernel, is that on boot the module utilities may start bitching about missing symbols when it's trying to get the dependencies of all the modules you have. (JESUS that was a runon.) You can ignore the error messages , or you can nuke the modules that are there that you don't need.
The partition scheme on intel is really old, and wasn't designed with this in mind.
Granted, there's ways to do it, but no simple ways (from the computer's point of view... fips is easy to use). Resizing partitions is basicly a hack.
I've used the partition scheme on intel (haven't we all?) and also the one on sparc. Neither seem to have a way of resizing partitions and leaving the filesystem intact (slices, on sparc).
In linux, try this: create a 50mb partition. Create a filesystem on it. Copy some worthless files to it. Then go into fdisk and delete the partition, and create a 100mb partition starting in the same place. Then mount it. You can still access your files, but note that it only thinks there's 50mb on that partition. Now run fsck and watch the sparks fly... (don't reboot during this process BTW... fsck will force most distros into single user mode).
Making a partition bigger is a difficulty for the filesystem. Making a partition start somewhere else is difficult because of where the data is stored physicly on the disk (the data itself would have to be moved). That's why we rely on special programs designed for this purpose; there's no reason for linux to directly support this. It doesn't happen often enough to rethink the entire way we do disk storage.
Anyway, as the other posters in this thread have mentioned, there's free alternatives to partition magic. I've used fips, and it's never done me wrong, despite all the warnings they give you. Try for yourself; but do make sure you have backups.
spauldo
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Become a sysadmin or programmer for the military. You get 30 days a year.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
There's nothing wrong with expecting a new distro to come out with up to date software. There is a problem expecting this of _all_ the distros. Debian works differently. They want to make sure something is _really_ stable before they actually call it that. For a home system, this probably isn't what you want - you want all the new goodies, right? - but for a server or other such system dedicated to a certain purpose, use redhat or mandrake. You might check out storm linux - they're based on debian... dunno if they're based on the unstable or not though. Redhat and mandrake can keep you up to date. Debian will almost guarantee you'll not have any problems with flaky software (other than a few packages that are marked as such). Personally, I use Slackware. Slackware keeps folks like me happy compiling all day without worrying about breaking package management (we _are_ the package management). Hell, I'd still be usin' 3.3 if it wasn't for the glibc switch... spauldo
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Yes, I've also heard of parted (partition editor).
My friends who use Red Hat (I run Slackware) say that it ships with Red Hat 6.
To email me,subtract my nick from my email address, starting with the second character. (hint: adto.uiuc.edu is wrong)
Some distros put the kernel and the System.map in /sbin/lilo. and reboot.
/boot. The kernel make install puts it in / by default.
just move it to boot, rerun
DanteAliegri [dante@magnus.net]
-- What doesn't kill you hasn't tried hard enough.
I agree, not one single person has been able to install Linux. Its like the sword in the stone, a daunting task, if not impossible !
Lars -
DiskDrake.
Not everyone deserves a 320i
It seems that you people forget about one little thing that kept me away from compiling the kernel for days: You should also type a depmod -a which is NOT specified in any of the HOWTO's. At least not the versions I have. And you can hardly find out about how to upgrade your modules from the docs coming with the kernel. One point minus for the people who know things about linux, and they want to spread it but they don't say the 'weel known' things. spooky of the CyBurial Squad
Spooky of the CyBurial Squad
Most of which is horribly out of date. Its seriously time to overhaul most of these documents. Who really cares about the 1.x kernel series?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
--- 2.2/include/linux/vesion.h Thu Apr 27 11:27:26 2000
+++ 2.4/include/linux/version.h Thu May 25 10:08:04 2000
-#define UTS_RELEASE "2.2.16"
+#define UTS_RELEASE "2.4.0"
+/*Woo hoo!*/
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
Or, perhapos they speak out of their mouths and their asses.
the fact is that there are really all of about 6 comands needed to compile and instal the kernel.
make config
make dep
make clean
make *Image
make modules
make module_install
the fact also reamins that you need to *really* understand what these comands do and the effects they have.
if you think you are so damned 31337 then prove it by taking the damned time to educate someone. Flames come from trolls, wise words comes from the truly wise. we all know what you are.
"I mean, All you can definately say about a fellow who thinks he's a poached egg, is; He's in the minority." James Burke
(Not trying to start a flame war, just mentioned that not all distros do it that way)
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
printf("f1r57 p057!!!\n");
system.karma -= 1;
printf("Decompressing vmlinuz...\n");
Wouldn't that be 'printk'??????
And don't forget the new troll() and flame() system calls, they are like signal() but than really anoying and uneccesarry...... And of course moderate() wich will be a wrapper for kill()
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
I started naming my kernel images with version suffix (vmlinuz-2.2.15, etc) and then editing /etc/lilo.conf to have a new and old kernel labels ('linux' and 'backup') where the new one was the vmlinuz-2.2.15 image and the old/previous one was vmlinuz-2.2.{whatever} and then run lilo. This way, if your new kernel is borked, you can still boot the 'backup' version. This seemed to always work (at least when I was using RedHat, switched to Deb in the last few months and making a kernel is a snap. make-kpkg automates the process of creating a new kernel very nicely.)
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
boot = /dev/hda
/boot/map
/vmlinuz
/boot/vmlinuz /dev/hdb1 /pub/vmlinuz /dev/hdc3 /dev/hda1 /dev/hda
map =
install=/boot/boot.b
prompt
timeout = 50
append="reboot=warm"
compact # faster, but won't work on all systems.
delay = 50
# Normal VGA console
vga = normal
# VESA framebuffer console @ 1024x768x64k
# vga=791
# VESA framebuffer console @ 1024x768x32k
# vga=790
# VESA framebuffer console @ 1024x768x256
# vga=773
# VESA framebuffer console @ 800x600x64k
# vga=788
# VESA framebuffer console @ 800x600x32k
# vga=787
# VESA framebuffer console @ 800x600x256
# vga=771
# VESA framebuffer console @ 640x480x64k
# vga=785
# VESA framebuffer console @ 640x480x32k
# vga=784
# VESA framebuffer console @ 640x480x256
# vga=769
# ramdisk = 0 # paranoia setting
# End LILO global section
# Linux bootable partition config begins
#
# The following setting was originally: image =
# Rest unchanged. viper@unicall.be
image =
root =
label = linux
read-only # Non-UMSDOS filesystems should be mounted read-only for checking
# Linux bootable partition config ends
image =
root =
label = rescue
read-only
# DOS bootable partition config begins
other =
label = dos
table =
# DOS bootable partition config ends
Have done this since 2.3.31...
And the 2.3.99-pr9 is very stable on my machine and ALOT faster than 2.2
Test and submit bug reports!
I'm just wondering. Who, if not Alan Cox whould maintain the ac (Alan Cox) patch-series? 8-)
;)
Anonymous Coward, maybe?
Has the 2.4.0 kernel changed significantly with respect to SMP (as compared to 2.2.x)?
I don't know if it's just me, but I don't actually see linux-2.4.0test1 on the ftp-server. The README is there alright, but the tar.gz is nowhere to be seen. Looks like it has not been really announced and not really released either :-)
Ok, now I think you're trolling. Y'know all those gotos? Y'know what Linus said about them? They translate directly into a jmp (or your local equvalent) call. It makes for much cleaner assembly, and better speed. Go ahead. Clean up those gotos. Then benchmark it against a regular kernel. Hah.
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Visit
Gee, does it really matter? mmmmm..... No. Get over yourself, and get the "First Post!" somewhere else.
Shift happens. Fire it up.
There was a time when I would compile a new kernel maybe every third day. (I was in college...what can I say?)
For a moment i thought it was John Vranesevich who wrote that when i noticed that email pranevich@linuxtoday.com I'm ok now.
At least, it seemed like it to me.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
From the kernel Makefile:
/
#
# INSTALL_PATH specifies where to place the updated kernel and system map
# images. Uncomment if you want to place them anywhere other than root.
INSTALL_PATH=/boot
Fresh from the tarball sources have INSTALL_PATH commented out.. the default is
Most distros make boot on seperate partition to get around the 1024 cylinder limitation. IIRC there is a new version of lilo that doesn't have the issue.
I was wondering if someone more aware could let me know where to send bug reports. For some reason, it doesn't seem logical to flood Linus with bug reports, but without joining the kernel mailing lists, how can we post bug reports?
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
What I got from his message was that he compiled and installed the kernel.. but on reboot? his system was unusable.
I've now recompiled different kernels on various systems well over 100 times. ( Mostly for embeded PC use ) And frankly removing certain drivers or options in the kernel config will build you an unusable kernel. The kernel will hang on boot or do other "interesting" things if you actually get to the login prompt.
The point is that it's not easy to compile a new kernel if your're trying to customize it in anyway. It's a trial and error type of situaton.
Of course anyone who is messing with their Kernel should always make sure lilo has a stable kernel to fall back on. Install the new kernel but leave the old one around for emergency boot. Unless the new kernel happens to trash your disk
Ex-Nt-User
Are you by chance running a Red Hat distribution?
Red Hat tends to do things a little bit differently, I believe it has to do with the initial ramdisk (initrd) setup they use to load modules on boot-up.
Check Here for the Red Hat-specific kernel building HOWTO.
Did he say anything about Java bytecode? Java doesn't necessarily imply Java bytecode; see, for example, The GNU Compiler for the Java(tm) Programming Language, which can either produce bytecode or native machine code. (Yes, it means you don't automatically get Write Once Run Anywhere if you compile to native machine code, but perhaps there are applications where that doesn't matter.)
Why is changing the engine in my car so complicated? i bought the damn thing and there's no way i'm going to trade in my ford ka *just* to get a better engine. i bought a new engine that said it would fit, but it's *so* much harder to do then the other things i do with my car (i.e. drive, fill the tank, change the oil, wash it, etc).
there are all these bolts and screws and the tools! dear god the tools. i need a "hydrolic lift," wtf?!
i'm tellin' ya, these ford people had better get their act together.
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Sorry... I feel like i'm beating a dead horse... but this got me:
.config file from redhat or something, then everything is a module anyway...
.config file from the previous kernel (if its the same tree anyway), and then type ./complie...wait 4 or 5 minutes (3 on mine) and then reboot.
1. Why is swapping the Kernel so complicated? Why not automate this more?
How do you mean automate it more? If you do:
make menuconfig Maybe this is the problem... but if you use the
make dep
make clean
make bzImage
make modules
make modules_install
make bzlilo
done..... I put all the make statments in to a 'script' and call it "complie." (Orginial, eh?). Then all you have to do is make menuconfig, copy your
---
Just a comment: I have never used the "*lilo" or "install" targets, since I'm not really sure of what they do. And I like my kernels named after what's in them, so I end up with kernels like /vmlinuz-2.2.13-smp-bigphysarea-3compatch or /vmlinuz-2.2.13-smp-adaptec and so on. Makes it easier to see how they differ.
And if you have to copy the kernel to a lot of machines, it't easier if you don't have to mess with a bunch of modules, so I usually compile everything I need into the kernel, if I can.
Don't use "make bzlilo". Use "make install". "make install" can be customized to fit your distribution by putting a script in /sbin/installkernel.
Is there not a gnu parted which does this?
If exchanging a kernel is such a dang-blasted important task for any Linux user to know how to do, why is it so complicated?
I think you're operating from a faulty precept here; who says it's important for any user to know how to do this?
Any user who *DOESN'T* know how to swap a kernel should be using a distribution such as Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera etc. where it IS easy to swap a kernel.
--
Downloading and installing stuff is fine, but part of the reason you choose a distro with a package manager (like RPM or apt) is to have dependancies taken care of. If you install a new version of ssl or gnome or some core package by hand, you've broken your dependancy tree and it's a mess trying to get back on the rails. Especially if you didn't pick the same directories as the package maintainer for your installation.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
> Why, Anonymous Coward, of course!
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Eric Raymond has hacked up a new kernel configuration scheme that is supposed to be considerably better than the one used today. Too bad it seems to late for it to be used in 2.4, but hey, it looks great! :)
--
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
JFS, XFS, and ReiserFS all rely on a layer called pagebuf that hasn't been fully agreed to or implemented yet.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Will the patch for 2.3.99-pre5 work for this one?
Well, I never found the process complicated or terribly trouble prone. I know this isn't terribly helpful to you.
/usr/doc/lilo-x.xx directory and understand it reasonably well.
The hardest part of teaching is remembering what it is like not to know. Perhaps if you can be more specific about what you found complicated it would help somebody help you.
I think the complexity, such as it is, comes from PC BIOS. It's a real pain. LILO does a great job in simplifying dealing with this, but it sure is possible to screw things up, and there's lots of stuff that's simply hard to do. Try changing the IDE controller you're booting from, for example. Ugh.
That said, simply creating a new kernel and booting from it is about as simple as things get. Give the kernel a new file name, and a line for the boot image in lilo.conf, and run lilo. It works like a charm for me.
Setion 4.4 of the Kernel-HOWTO discusses this, but if you don't have things set up just that way, you need to It's important to read the README in the
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Why does all the cool stuff come out after potato is frozen?
Does this seem familiar to anyone (kernel 2.2)? That's the reason I moved away from Debian. Don't get me wrong, Debian is a very cool distro with many innovative and intelligent features (especially the package management system). However, they just can't seem to get on the ball with their releases; as soon as you install one, a lot of your software is instantly old. For my purposes, I can't run the latest unstable or frozen system, so I have no choice but to not use Debian.
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
The "gotchas" I know about:
There is some kind of bug with networking where the network suddenly dies and you have to reboot, my roommate and I both had problems with it as late as 2.3.99pre5, but another rommate didn't even have a glitch in networking.
Also there was no new support for Ultra66 (doesn't bother me, I don't have ultra66).
My questions are:
Was support for ultra66 added?
Did the networking bug get tracked down/fixed?
Does anyone know if ext3 support is included in this version and/or the *real* 2.4?
Is it any good as far as JFSes go?
How long before we can expect tools developed for ext3, is there anyone working on that now?
Will this kernel series have native support for IBM's JFS?
The reason I'm asking so many questions about JFS is that many companies are not going to Linux because of the lack of a Journaling File System.
Devil Ducky
Devil Ducky
MY peers would get out of jury duty.
What a bunch of diddly changes to an already stable system. My need to upgrade = zero.
Whoa, this is a genuinly funny post. What exactly makes it off-topic? Humor is never off topic.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Actually, even C++ (which is a pretty lightweight resource-wise) OO language needs significant runtime resources. Even in BeOS (Where C++ is modus oparendi in user level stuff) C++ is discouraged for kernel-level stuff (namely drivers and modules)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Hello, Linux is mainly a non-Java bytecode CPU. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic, Linux doesn't run on any Java bytecode CPUs.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Damn you Linux zealots are idiots. What is wrong with expecting a NEW distro to come with up to date software? Its not that hard, but unlike you, normal people actually have work to do. They can't spend their entire weekend updating their Linux distro. Does expecting the people who's responsibility it is to maintain the distro to actually maintain it make you less 31337 (Or however it's spelled.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Actually, the goto is not a bad thing.
.. catch { } code in C++ is just another example of a goto -- except that it's more structured around specifically handling error conditions within a block of code. The same concept can be applied to C very successfully.
:-)
Not when used correctly, that is. As unconditional jump within a function body, it allows you to handle all exceptions in one place easily.
For example:
if(!connect("site"))
goto error;
if(!send("string"))
goto error;
....
error:
handle_error();
(Yes, this is simplified)
As you can see, it saves you from doing the usual solution (calling another function, either passing it the variables or adding to the global variable namespace). This is desireable when performance is critical, or when the recovery is so trivial it does not justify the expense of a function call (ie: you just rewind a stream by one byte). Also, if this code is specific to one function, why make two?
As another example, any try { }
Of course, this doesn't mean you should go and used hundreds of gotos. That's like using hundreds of for() statements, or while() loops when there is no reason to. And no one really knows what will happen if you goto something in another function (C has no ret instruction equivalent)
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I hope this hasn't already been posted, but here is a pretty convenient and well written list of the new 2.4 features.
One of the things that really tick me off is that Linux (or is it just EXT2?) doesn't (as far as I know.. only spent one afternoon trying to find information) have any way to resize partitions after you have made them. This is something that I expect from DOS and windows 9x.. not Linux.
The only solutions that I found where commercial ones like Partition Magic. Surely there is a place for a Open source project in this department!
Rami
--
rJames.org - illustration
the fact is that there are really all of about 6 comands needed to compile and instal the kernel.
/. is not a forum for that kind of advice anyway. Take it to comp.os.linux.setup. Read the HOWTOs. Look at every file an /boot and wonder what it is doing. Don't expect it will be easy - it won't. You will make mistakes. You can hose your system. There are ample warnings. There are reasonable alternatives, such as getting prepackaged distributions from vendors.
/proc/ to see what options you are currently using. Don't expect it to be easy. Expect that you will screw things up. Keep a boot disk handy, and lots of coffee. Back up your system. And enjoy. There are few things that give more of a sense of accomplishment than building a new kernel to solve some problem specific to your setup.
make config
make dep
make clean
make *Image
make modules
make module_install
The fact is that there are several hundred options that must be addressed in make config.
Just stop for a second and think of this process on any other OS. It is virtually impossible to build a customized kernel for Windows, NT, MacOS. But on Unices it is not uncommon. It is downright difficult, and the cause of many a seasoned sys admin to pull his hair out to need to rebuild a kernel on Tru64, Solaris, or other commercial Unices. It is SOOOO much easier on linux it is not even funny. Yet still, there are many ways to screw up. You open a strange can of worms when you decide to begin to build kernels.
If you are like me, you began to build kernels because your hardware was not ordinary. I need reasonable NFS for some machines and that requires patches. I need a development kernel so my laptop Cardbus will work without locking on interrupt conflicts, and that required some fiddling.
Yet still, when I build a development kernel, it takes 3-4 tries to "get it right". If I am lucky I can build a standard kernel on the first try, but that is not the norm.
So when someone tries FOR THE FIRST TIME and doesn't quite get it right, I say "You are expecting too much."
Consider yourself blessed if you have the option to customize a kernel. Consider yourself lucky if you can build one and have it work on the first try. Consider yourself lucky if your system never gets hosed. If that is too much to accept then install the kernel from your distribution. They spend a lot of money and time and effort to ensure that your kernel will not hose your system. Building a development kernel from source is NEVER a low risk endeavor. If you do it lots you will still sometimes get burned.
There are AMPLE warning about the process in the kernel READMEs. You will ALWAYS see lots of precautions to people who ask about building development kernels. Yet still, sometimes, people ask questions about why it is so difficult to build a kernel under linux.
So you have to wonder, has this person EVER built a kernel for ANY other OS ?? Why should he think customizing a kernel with HUNDREDS of options should be something failsafe ? When he ignored the README files in his kernel source ?? The initial stance is completely tweaked, and that needs addressing.
That being said,
And if you suffer. And if you work long and hard at it, you will be able to build successful kernels, most of the time. Sometimes you will still screw up. That's life on the bleeding edge. Why do you think they call it the bleeding edge, anyway ??
If you want advice, I will tell you to keep an xterm open whil you run make config, and grep a lot in
*If* you are as capable as you imply, why not lend this poor fellow a helping hand and teach him, and many others, something useful. Your comment merely builds the impression that our favorite OS is only for self-important jerks. If that is the case, perhaps I'll switch to something else.
/. post. He should read the HOWTO, backup his system, brew a lot of coffee, and prepare for a long evening.
Come on. Someone tries to build a kernel without even looking through HOWTOs, or reading up on how to build kernels at kernelnotes.org. He doesn't know the role of System.map (which will, BTW, not hose your system, just leave you without symbols, generally innocuous).
The HOWTO says MUCH more than I will ever place in a
The other alternative is for him to use prepackaged systems that upgrade the kernel for you, such as those from all major OS vendors. Even that is a step beyond what MOST linux users do.
His, and your, expectancies are a little high. Most users NEVER build a kernel. This is a role that is moving more and more towards the distributions. That being said, building a kernel is a lot easier than other builds, like emacs, or XFree86, or GNOME, or KDE2. Downright simple in comparison.
If you want to switch to another system because you don't like the attitude of its users, you are using an OS for reasons far different than mine.
Get this thing fixed already 2.3.x is very much faster than 2.2 and im sick of using buggy software
If you are sick of bugy software why are you using test kernels? Switch back to a stable version. To quote from www.kernel.org "The latest stable version of the Linux kernel is: 2.2.15 "
Or better yet, how many patches have you submitted? Thats how open source is supposed to work. If you don't like it, fix it yourself or shut up and wait. I'm sure everyone would appreciate it being done sooner, but you to come here and bitch about it not being stable should not be tolerated.
For the record, I've never submitted a patch to the kernetl, but I've never bitched that the "test" kernels were buggy!
-- Freedom means letting other people do things you don't like.
There are seriously cool things making their way into the kernel these days. My two favorites are LVM (the logical volume manager: Heinz Maushagen's baby that mimics the capabilities of HPUX and AIX logical volume managers; more info at http://linux.msede.com/lvm/) and ReiserFS (ok, not really in yet, but they're making great progress).
But there are major problems with really fundamental stuff left. The VM system has been undergoing somewhat fundamental changes in the past week and a half. If 2.4 comes out any time in the next month, I'm waiting for 2.4.5 or 2.4.10 before I put this thing into production.
Still, with the rewritten pci device interface and cleaner APIs to a bunch of kernel functionality, I'm more excited than ever to start working with the new kernel in development mode at least.
It took me a while to find it (the search engine on linuxjournal.com is really not what it should be!) but here's a link:
3 882.html
http://www2.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue73/
very interesting article. it starts by addressing the first yucky thing i found about python (that whitespace and indentation actually *matter*!). it goes on to convince me that this is a language i really need to learn.
Yeah, i havn't bothered to upgrade my kernel either (Outside of changing to a newer distro), but i think it's time for me to compile 2.4. Most of the bugs in the todo list don't seem that serious (for me), the Tulip NIC problem is the only one that might cause problems. And hey, there are bugs in 2.2.x as well...
/dev stuff, USB and a few other smaller changes, i wouldn't bother either though.
If it wasn't for the new
Syllable : It's an Operating System
If you recompile without changing versions and include less modules in the new kernel, you might get complaints about object files when rebooting. So,
and the problem goes away. This one is puzzling when you first start making custom kernels, but it is documented.I think what the previous poster was referring to is that you won't notice the problem until you reboot, if you don't always reinstall modules.
---------///----------
This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
I really don't see what is so complicated about this:
Is that really so bad? Your lilo complaints are just ignorant: the Kernel-HOWTO does mention zlilo and bzlilo, last time I checked.
Recompiling a Linux kernel is quite simple compared to other Unices. Coming from an old-style BSD and new SysV background, I find the Linux way to be rather luxurious.
I'm not trying to flame you. I just think you didn't RTFM. If you fscked up that badly, you didn't read it well enough. And didn't you back up your old kernel first? You didn't make a boot disk, did you? You didn't test the new kernel before "swapping" it, did you? If you've done your homework, Linux is very forgiving.
I'd be interested in hearing more of your problem. What did you find "complex?" What problem necessitated a full system restoration? Details, please.
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
///---------------------------------------
Torvalds begins work on Linux 2.3.48.9.2.7.43, possibly
Posted by CmdrTaco on Sunday February 27, @10:36AM
from the rob-sucks-tarballs dept
Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, accidentally hit his keyboard with his elbow today. We have yet to receive confirmation that the resulting code will be be included in the next development kernel, but we can never be too sure. Here is the code in full:
This won't compile under GCC, so we can only assume the code is pretty experimental. Look for the tarballs to be released this evening.
Torvalds comments, "What? Oh, yeah, I accidentally hit my keyboard with my elbow when I reached to get my tea. What? Is it part of the new kernel? You're kidding, right?"
We'll update the article as soon as we get more information. The Linux world hasn't been in such frenzied anticipation since the release of kernel 2.3.48.9.2.7.42, which was about ten minutes ago.
Interview: Alan Cox farted
Posted by Hemos on Sunday February 27, @10:34AM
from the whats-that-smell dept
Linux guru and hacker-extrodinaire Alan Cox farted earlier today. What do you think this says about the future of Linux development? Alan's ass will respond to the highest moderated posts later this week.
ESR and JonKatz to participate in "Zealot Deathmatch"
Posted by Roblimo on Sunday February 27, @10:33AM
from the die-bitch-die dept
Open source proponent Eric S. Raymond and Slashdot nutcase JonKatz are reportedly organizing a "Zealot Arena Deathmatch" to raise money for the Apache Software Foundation. The fight is expected to be a tough one, because while Katz is genuinely insane, ESR has the power of girly, elfish looks. A spokesman from Apache says that, "while we don't encourage violence, we'll do anything for money."
VA Linux aquired by Klingons, Rob bows down to new alien masters
Posted by emmett on Sunday February 27, @10:32AM
from the star-shit-enterprise dept
VA Linux Systems, owner of Andover.net, owner of Slashdot.org, owner of Rob's ass, was officially aquired by the Klingon Empire earlier this morning. The Klingons, who have recently taken over Kellogs, GM, and Disney, are looking forward to absorbing more major corporations in the near future. The US Government is discussing investigating the Klingons for holding a monopoly over "every aspect of our lives", to which the Klingons responded, "Puny human scum! I will crush you like a bug and feast upon your steaming entrails." Finally, some competition for Microsoft!
Red Hat and VA stock at all time high!
Posted by CmdrTaco on Sunday February 27, @10:31AM
from the i-am-so-rich dept
Dude, have you heard the market reports today? I am so fucking rich! If this keeps up, I'll be able to stop doing this Slashdot crap! Hell yeah!
---------------------------------------///
I should really update that last one, though, in light of recent events:
///---------------------------------------
Red Hat and VA stock at all time low...
Posted by CmdrTaco on Thursday May 25, @10:31AM
from the i-am-so-fscked dept
Shit... say, how's the job market for goateed Perl-monkies?
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
for ordinary users to compile kernels and install new releases.
It's a magnificent pain in the ass. Get the right compiler and new version of the utilities and make sure all of them are built and properly installed just to find that, say the VM system is still being balanced and the kernel can't be used for useful work right now.
It's necessary if you want to contribute to testing the new kernel. It's necessary if you have hardware thiat is wither not or poorly supported in stable releases of the kernel.
But the vast majority of people can get along with their old kernels (perhaps with minor version upgrades i.e. 2.2.5->2.2.15) and wait until the distribution maintainers release a new kernel version to upgrade.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
Check out BuildKernel, it's an automated bash shell script that can download and install your kernel. If you don't want to configure your kernel, it can use your old .config file from your current kernel. Check out http://users.dhp.com/~whisper/ buildkernel/index.html.
Daniel
And lets face it, Tux would have to be the cutest thing in a Disney movie since...well, since, forever.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
"It's not a real 2.4.0 release, but we should be getting closer"
In other words, this kernel may as well be called 2.3.99pre10 for all that it counts. I hate to make the comparison, but I'm going to: was Win2000 RC1 beta software or was it the final version? It was a beta.
The same goes for this - in this case I think the 2.4 designation is worth very little. It's still got significant bug levels and people shouldn't be jumping the gun to get at it.
All MHO, of course.
--
Said it couldn't last, said it wouldn't last... This is the last stand against tomorrow's world.
And there is FIPS, working under DOS. I used it when installing my first Linux (a RedHat). Lots of fears before actually trying, but absolutely no problem. Sure, there's no GUI.
sigmentation fault
If you're coming from a 2.2x kernel (I wouldn't suggest the 2.4 test kernel from anything less than a good 2.2 installation) you'll probably want to go grab the latest modutils package... it'll make life easier.. trust me.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
More reasonable alternatives would include:
Yes, these languages don't have syntax that slavishly resembles C. But it's not as if the actual semantics of C++ or Java are actually that much like C...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
What sort of system is needed to run the current 2.3 and 2.4-test kernels? Going from 2.0 to 2.2 was a big jump in memory consumption, although apparently things did improve a little during the late 2.1 series.
Will I still be able to run the latest kernel on my 8Mbyte machine?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
From the readme:
;)
:)
.sig: File not found.
Have fun. And let's see how many people find this without it even being
announced
Announced on slashdot is about as bad as it can get
Dan
ls:
ls:
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?
Here's how to get it:
1. download 2.3.99pre9 from ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.3
2. download the pre10-3 patch from ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/testing
If you look at the pre10-3 patch, it says 2.4.0-test1 in the Makefile.
If exchanging a kernel is such a dang-blasted important task for any Linux user to know how to do, why is it so complicated?
I assume you refer to the difficulty of configuring the kernel correctly, i.e. running make {config|menuconfig|xconfig} and choosing the right options for what you want to do. I give the anwer: it's so complicated because it has to be. With power comes complexity; there really isn't any good, flexible way around that. There are lots of options because people run Linux on lots of different kinds of systems, and not all of them want, for example, SCSI support, or network support, or USB support, etc.
As near as I, at least, can tell, if you take away the complexity, and the requirement of knowing what you're doing, you'll dramatically decrease the flexibility and (obviously) the configurability of the OS.
As for Don't say that a 'normal' user doesn't need to do a kernel swap, well, sorry, most users don't need to do a kernel build. They can quite happily wait for RedHat or Debian or SuSE or whomever to release a 2.4.x kernel and download the binaries.
I compiled from source my first kernel two days ago, and let me tell you: it ain't something that I would recommend any user do.
It isn't something I would recommend just any user do, either. At least, not without some sort of preparation and due diligence (e.g. read the help files, and don't say yes or no until you know what they're talking about). I'm not trying to imply you didn't prepare and do your due diligence, by the way; I'm agreeing with you.
1. Why is swapping the Kernel so complicated? Why not automate this more?
I'm not positive, 'cause I don't use it, but I think that Debian, for example, has automated new kernel builds. I couldn't speak for any other distros, not having used 'em.
The HOWTO that comes with the kernel source doesn't mention ANYWHERE that you have to swap in the newly compile System.map file so lilo and your system don't have hissy fits.
I'd agree that that's a problem. I hope you send/sent an e-mail to the HOWTO maintainer.
My
Maybe Linus should have put an NDA around that README file. Then he would now have grounds to sue Slashdot!
Say no to software patents.
Now that I've made some sort of introduction, I would like to ask a simple question of the Linux using community: If exchanging a kernel is such a dang-blasted important task for any Linux user to know how to do, why is it so complicated?
[Don't say that a 'normal' user doesn't need to do a kernel swap, it doesn't lead to any interesting discussion. I did it because I wanted to test the USB stacks with some of the devices that my company develops.]
I compiled from source my first kernel two days ago, and let me tell you: it ain't something that I would recommend any user do. In fact, I royally screwed my system to the point that I had to restore from backup!
The questions presented:
--
I realise that some of what i referenced may be a bit off (that System.map thing in particular). Be gentle.
Rami James
Pixel Pusher
ALST R&D Center, IL
--
rJames.org - illustration
McDonald's gets the merchandising deal (Happy Meals come with "Linux Heros" figurines) and Eisner makes another few million.
The End.
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This post is not redundant, please don't moderate it as such. I repeat, this post is not redundant.
--
I like to watch.
And another other open source releases announced on /.
Please moderate accordingly, and your crack will be delivered as per usual.
I'm just wondering. Who, if not Alan Cox whould maintain the ac (Alan Cox) patch-series? 8-)
Why, Anonymous Coward, of course!
Before people get their hopes up, you should check out the length of Alan Cox's Todo list. It is not small :(
/proc/scsi/BusLogic/0 (Robert de Vries)
Capable Of Corrupting Your FS
-----------------------------
E820 memory setup causes crashes/corruption on some laptops
Use PCI DMA by default in IDE is unsafe on VIA VPx x<3
Security
--------
Fix module remove race bug (mostly done - Al Viro)
exec loader permissions
Semaphore races (fix in 2.2)
Semaphore memory leak (fix in 2.2)
Exploitable leak in file locking (Willy)
TTY and N_HDLC layer called poll_wait twice per fd and corrupt memory
ATM layer calls poll_wait twice per fd and corrupts memory
Random calls poll_wait twice per fd and corrupts memory
PCI sound calls poll_wait twice per fd and corrupts memory
sbus audio calls poll_wait twice per fd and corrupts memory
access_process_mm oops/lockup if task->mm changes (Manfred) [user can cause deliberately]
RtSig limit handling bug
Signals leak kernel memory (security) [FIX in ac tree]
Boot Time Failures
------------------
IDE fails on some VIA boards (eg the i-opener)
AHA29xx driver appears to stomp other cards
Use PCI DMA 'lost interrupt' problem with some hw [which ?]
(NEC Versa LX with PIIX tuning)
HT6560/UMC8672 ide sets up stuff too early (before region stuff can be done)
Crashes on boot on some Compaqs ? (may be fixed)
IBM MCA driver breaks on Device_Inquiry at boot
DEFXX driver appears broken
ACPI hangs on boot for some systems
In Progress
-----------
Dcache threading (Al Viro)
Merge the network fixes (DaveM)
Finish I2O merge (Intel/Alan)
Fix all remaining PCI code to use new resources and enable_Device (mostly done)
Fix Exists But Isnt Merged
--------------------------
Update SGI VisWS to new-style IRQ handling (Ingo)
64bit lockf support
Support MP table above 1Gig (Ingo)
Finish sorting out VM balancing (Rik Van Riel, Juan Quintela et al)
Dont panic on boot when meeting HP boxes with wacked APIC table numbering (AC)
Scheduler bugs in RT (Dimitris)
Fix eth= command line
HFS is still broken
AIC7xxx doesnt work non PCI ? (Doug says OK, new version due anyway)
8139 + bridging fails
Fix hpfs_unlink (Al Viro)
put_user is broken for i386 machines (security) - sem stuff may be wrong too
BusLogic crashes when you cat
Loopback fs hangs
To Do
-----
SHM code corrupts memory
Floppy driver broken by VFS changes. Other drivers may be too
(Stuff gets called after _close now - unload race possibly too)
Tulip hang on rmmod/crashes sometimes
Devfs races, Sockfs (removing NULL ->i_sb stuf) (Al Viro)
Restore O_SYNC functionality
Debian report that the gcc 2.95 possibly miscompiles fault.c or mm/remap.c
(Perl script available from Arjan)
Fix further NFS races (Al Viro)
Trace numerous random crashes in the inode cache
Test other file systems on write
The netdev name changing stuff broke GRE
Audit all char and block drivers to ensure they are safe with the 2.3
locking - a lot of them are not especially on the open() path.
Stick lock_kernel() calls around driver with issues to hard to fix nicely
for 2.4 itself
PCMCIA/Cardbus hangs, IRQ problems, Keyboard/mouse problem (may be fixed ?)
pci_socket crash on unload
truncate_inode_pages does unsafe page cache operations
Linux sends a 1K buffer with SCSI inquiries. The ANSI-SCSI limit is 255.
Linux uses TEST_UNIT_READY to chck for device presence on a PUN/LUN. The
INQUIRY is the only valid test allowed by the spec.
To Do But Non Showstopper
-------------------------
Make syncppp use new ppp code
Finish 64bit vfs merges (lockf64 and friends missing)
NCR5380 isnt smp safe
DMFE is not SMP safe
Go through as 2.4pre kicks in and figure what we should mark obsolete for
the final 2.4
Union mount (Al Viro)
Per Process rtsigio limit
Fix SPX socket code
Boot hangs on a range of Dell docking stations (Latitude)
iget abuse in knfsd
Some people report 2.3.x serial problems
USB hangs on APM suspend on some machines
PCMCIA crashes on unloading pci_socket
ISAPnP IRQ handling failing on SB1000 + resource handling bug
TB Multisound driver hasnt been updated for new isa I/O totally.
Fix boards with different TSC per CPU and kill TSC use on them
DVD-RAM is apparently not working for write currently (Rogier Wolff)
Compatibility Errors
--------------------
Xterm broke in 2.3.99pre6 (FIONREAD/select loop)
Probably Post 2.4
-----------------
per super block write_super needs an async flag
addres_space needs a VM pressure/flush callback (Ingo)
per file_op rw_kiovec
Drivers In 2.2 not 2.4
----------------------
To Check
--------
Check O_APPEND atomicity bug fixing is complete
Protection on isize (sct) [Al Viro mostly done]
Mikulas claims we need to fix the getblk/mark_buffer_uptodate thing for
2.3.x as well
Network block device seems broken by block device changes
Fbcon races
VFS?VM - mmap/write deadlock (demo code seems to show lock is there)
rw sempahores on page faults (mmap_sem)
kiobuf seperate lock functions/bounce/page_address fixes
Fix routing by fwmark
Some FB drivers check the A000 area and find it busy then bomb out
rw semaphores on inodes to fix read/truncate races ? [Probably fixed]
Not all device drivers are safe now the write inode lock isnt taken on write
File locking needs checking for races
Multiwrite IDE breaks on a disk error [minor issue at best]
ACPI/APM suspend issue - IDE related stuff ?
NFS bugs are fixed
Floppy last block cache flush error
Chase reports of SMB not working
Locking on getcwd
floppy fails on some machines
IRDA calls get random bytes before random is set up
Some AWE cards are not being found by ISAPnP ??
SHM segments not always being detached and destroyed right ?
I'm just wondering. Who, if not Alan Cox whould maintain the ac (Alan Cox) patch-series? 8-)