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And if you don't want to be spammed for God's sake, don't use pathetic obsfucation of your email address on a public forum

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

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-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

-- The_Messenger

True, and for those of you out there not familiar with Canadian Statutes:

S.1 Refers to Section 1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which reads:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Essentially, this means that the Crown (our version of a D.A.) would argue that the expression could be reasonably limited if it were justifiable to our society.

Yeah, right.

The first amendment grants us the right to bear firearms. If you kill people with guns, the government can take those rights away from that particular individual.

According to my source, Out of Many, A History of the American People, Volume One published by Prentice Hall, the second amendment reads:

1. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State [Nation], the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The Amendment states that people are allowed to keep and bear arms, whether they be swords or firearms, for the purpose of a militia. The way my teachers have presented the Amendment seems as if the founding fathers were saying "So that the Nation can have a national guard formed of the people, the people have the right to own weapons so that they can defend the country."

The analogy of being able to own firearms and be restricted if those firearms are used incorrectly and inappriopriately does not make any sense in the situation of the Anti-Trust suit aginst Microsoft.

I accept that you were trying to say the Government can limit an entity's rights if it infringes upon the rights of another. If Microsoft is proven to have infringed upon the pursuits of life, liberty, property, and other rights guaranteed by the United States government, then it is within their power -- and is their duty, in my opinion -- to restrict the powers of Microsoft.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

--
Nick Shane
nshane@mindless.com

Great, so the dude gets off. it doesn't end there....

Because of this ruling, there will be binding legal precedent stating that Microsoft's GUID is an illegal invasion of privacy... this opens Microsoft up to about a gazillion and one (rough estimate) lawsuits. Not to mention that it won't look too good for the defence at the DOJ trial. I will be quite interested to see how this turns out.

Disclaimer: I am not a legal expert. My knowledge of the legal system comes from 2 high school law classes and wtaching Law and Order religiously.

- Adam Schumacher
cybershoe@mindless.com
N.A.R.T. #009
P.W.T.T.K.S.S.S.T.H.U. #001

Your logic is ok, but an important point is missing in your premices that destroys your whole demonstration: there is another informal group of people, that existed for much longer, that called itself "hackers" (yes I'm talking about the people that, as odd as it might seem to you, don't break at all in other's computers, but use their time to program theirs).

This entire argument was started by my defending ESR. This entire thread started with my saying that hackers were hobby computer scientist or hobby computer engineers or hobby coders in response to someone saying that they were using the "old school" definition and that the "old school" definition meant someone who performs acts of virtual breaking-and-entering, i.e. cracker.

My entire argument was based on the premis that "old school" refered to the oldest. Since it was understood that the discussion was of computer hackers, "old school" really means the first people that used the word hacker; people like the students at MIT, people like the engineers at the Xerox PARC, and people like the engineers that started the IETF and IRTF.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.



Nick Shane
nshane@mindless.com

u4ea,

I did see Hackers. I thought it was poorly done, poorly acted, and a poor portrayal of cracking and of hacking. I do not own a pair of rollerblades and if I did I would not own them to be like the characters dipicted.

I have seen Blade Runner. I am going to read the book upon which it was based, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. The movie was interesting, well acted, and somewhat thought provoking though not so much as I believe the novel form will be.

I saw the beginning of Sneakers, I believe. I was tired and, if it was Sneakers, fell asleep watching it. But, again, I digress.

You can despise my opinion. However, I think you are misinterpreting me or perhaps intentionally bending my meaning.

"If I work my way into MILNET and bounce from node to node seeing what's there, does that prevent me from being of the old school?" you wrote. This is a misinterpretation of my writing,
"But most modern 'hackers' read antiquated text files and break into systems without seeming to have a real understanding of what they are doing."

If you worked into MILNET and figured out how to bounce from node to node then you had to know something about the structure and the network. For you to have worked on MILNET you would have had to figure out at least one login/password pair, figured out the commands, etc. The key is figured out. I hope it is not as if you downloaded a text file, copied the method they proscribed (including login/password pair, nodes to bounce to, etc.), and used it verbatim. Your MILNET example is still, to me, cracking but it is a highly skilled, approaching hacking kind of cracking. I recognize that you needed skills to have performed this but the virtual breaking-and-entering is what seperates hacking from cracking.

What I was trying to say is that most people that now claim hackerdom by claiming ability to break into systems are, in my experience, script-kiddies. It seems to me as if these kiddies are just downloading, compiling, running. There is not much figuring out now, so it seems. It seems as if they are downloading a port scanner, learning some exploit, logging in, and running it. This is what I meant by cracker.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.



Nick Shane
nshane@mindless.com

Also, anybody see a resemblence to his stated beliefs and the views of Ayn Rand as evidenced in her book "Anthem?"