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Government-2006 energy review
http://www.carbon-info.org/carbonnews_100.htm

That is from 2006 when the then president, Bush, waged a war against science. I also noticed it says "nuclear energy produces significantly less CO2 compared to the normal fossil fuels" and says in the graph that wind emits 10 grams of CO2 per KWh and nuclear only emits 7. There is nothing there about solar.

Also I take it you couldn't re arsed reading this when I linked to it earlier.
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/book/tex/cft.pdf

Three hundred and eighty three pages? My eye's be killing me after 10 pages. I did go through the chapter on solar and the paragraphs themselves focus on solar in Great Britain. Figure 6.16 only lists 2 locations in GB for average sunshine, W/m^2, the greater of the 2 is London with 109. New York City and the rainy city of Seattle, WA, on the other hand each show 147. LA, CA, shows 225. The chapter on wind says that though it doesn't provide enough energy to power the UK it can provide some and provide it economically. However SciAm's article "A Grand Solar Plan" says that by 2050 solar power can provide 69% of the US's electrical needs. And the study Global potential for wind-generated electricity published by the National Academy if Sciences of the USA says wind can provide "40 times current worldwide consumption of electricity, >5 times total global use of energy in all forms."

You know why solar and wind don't get as much total? because they're no hopers. They get money to placate people who know fuck all about generating power for the grid but want a symbol of how very green their power is.

Only those who know nothing about solar and wind support it? Those who live Off the grid know nothing? They're only source of electricity is alternatives sources but they know nothing? John Doerr, appointed a member of Obama's Economic Recovery Advisory Board knows little? As venture capitalist and partner of Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield, and Byers he has invested billions in alternative energy but he knows nothing? Vinod Khosla, cofounder of Sun and another venture capitalist also knows little?

Did you even read my post?wind+solar cannot be used for more than 20% of the grid

Did you read the science links I provided saying solar can provide 69% of the electricity of the USA by 2050 and that wind could provide 400% of the world's energy?

Add in some kind of smart grid and you might, might just push that up to 30% and that's at an insane cost.

According to the article "Lifeline for Renewable Power" by Tech Review currently because the grid is now failing it costs businesses $80 billion dollars a year, so the grid needs to be rebuilt and made smart period. Even with more nuclear power plants that's true. But you're only using it against solar and wind, which is hypocritical.

Geothermal is fantastic for the few places where there's magma near the surface

I agree geothermal is not usable everywhere, no energy source even nuclear power is good everywhere. That's why I want a mix of different energy sources used. Biofuels can be used for fuel for things like aircrafts. The US Department of Defense is working to create biodiesel for jets.

HVDC can carry about 40% more power over the same lines, compared to AC. The main drawback is that you need to convert to/from AC on either end.

No, you don't need to convert DC to AC and back. Thomas Edison's electric company used DC. The old DC power system wasn't fully converted to AC until 2007. Even today Off the Gridders use DC. It's cheaper and loses less power if you use DC appliances with DC power than it is to convert DC to AC and use AC appliances. Of course this only matters if you only use solar PVs. If you use a hybrid system, solar and geothermal, micro hydro, tidal, or wind, then you'll need an inverter. You'll also need one if you use batteries to store energy.

Falcon

I know someone who walks everywhere. He cackles with glee when the price of gas goes up; of course his grocery bills et al get larger when that happens.

He like everyone else pays indirectly. Businesses consider taxes as well as other expenses when setting prices.

An excellent public transit system should be supported by those who use the roads. After all, I have to get around. Subsidize my using public transit, and there will be less traffic.

No, just as drivers do you should pay your part too. Mass transit prices should reflect all the costs of transit. When I walk or ride my bike, and I do when I go shopping sometimes, first my use doesn't not put much stress on the infrastructure, not nearly as much as the trucks that deliver the merchandise, but when a business factors in fuel tax I pay a higher price. Or I would if the fuel tax paid for the infrastructure. The problem is it does not. With mass transit, if it moves people more efficiently then it shouldn't be paying as much in taxes as if the individuals drive themselves. However it isn't all that efficient, not where I live. I live in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis/St Paul, MN and it's mass transit is supposed to be one of the most efficient systems in the US. However I once took a bus to go somewhere I can drive to in 10 to 15 minutes, and it took me about an hour on the bus. I'd quite willing to pay another $2 a gallon on fuel for the convenience of reaching my destination a lot quicker. And get this, it cost more than $5 round trip even though I walked a couple of miles to get to the bus station, so even with fuel tax being $2 more I still would pay less driving. The one think I like about the buses here is that they have bike racks, so people can ride a bike to the bus stop, put it in the rack, then take it out when they get wherever.

Mind you I'm not against mass transit, I wish we had better systems, but even mass transit users should pay. Actually I've dreamed of building my own home an hour or two away from a big city but in a rural/wilderness setting and Off the Grid. What I'd like to be able to do then, and be willing to pay for it, is to drive from home to a train station where I drive my car onto a train car then drive it off when I've reached the city. If I was going to be in the city for a while and do some running around.

I tend to think schools should be paid for with income taxes. But I don't know what difference ad valorum vs. income taxes make. With police protection, you again get the freeloaders who benefit without paying.

Property tax not income or sales tax should pay for protection, and there are no freeloaders. Except those who live on the streets. But by allowing people to keep more of the money they work to earn the more jobs will be created thus taking some of them off the streets. And I've been there, having money as well as being broke and lacking a regular job. When I found myself like that, I went down to a labor pool and worked as a day laborer. And though there were others like me, many going to the labor pool were homeless. The pay wasn't much but it was enough to eat. Work for a day, then back at the pool get paid with a check. A couple of doors down there was a check cashing business, which takes a chunk of the money. Or a person could walk about half a mile to the bank the check was written from and cash it there, keeping all the money. With $40 or $50 in hand you could then take your family to a restaurant to eat. And yes there were families living on the street. Myself, I am and was single and was a college student then. Now I am disabled and collecting disability because of it. I hope to be able to start a photography business RSN, partially online and I don't want to have to deal with a bunch of different state sales taxes.

Falcon

If we started looking at heating homes with electricity instead of natural gas, we'd be looking at yet another huge increase.

With proper insulation little energy is needed to heat or cool homes. Those who build Off the Grid do it all the tyme.

you're talking about putting these massive obelisks over a surface area larger than Europe. Fact is, this alone would be the largest engineering project in human history, even at 1/40th of the scale. The effects of construction would be felt world-wide.

And where is your science or applied data to support this?

Falcon

The electric company doesn't provide communications. I had carte blanche phone service all my life until I switched to a cell phone, and now I have it again - $50 per month, no minutes, free voicemail, free texting, free internet (Boost Mobile). I don't have to pay by the minute to watch cable TV. Why should internet service be any different?

It shouldn't.

It shouldn't what? The electric company shouldn't communicate energy usage? If people could see in realtime what their energy consumption is then they would know where and how they could reduce the energy used. Those who go Off the Grid use meters that show their usage patterns. Some electric companies offer monitoring services where they can turn off a heavy energy using appliance, like air conditioners, during high demands. In return the customer receives a cut in prices.

Falcon

You have poor reading comprehension skills.

I really shouldn't have to type anything else, but I'll explain what the previous two posts meant for you. When he was referring to communications, he was referring to the type of service they provide (ie. phone service).

He then goes on to explain that he doesn't pay by the minute for his phone services and thusly he shouldn't ever have to pay by the bit for internet usage. I agreed with his sentiments.

That's really all that was said, any reference to any information that Electric Companies or Phone Companies do or don't provide in regards to energy usage or data usage is not referred to in either of the above 2 posts. It is referred to elsewhere in other threads, so that's a good place to take your argument.

You just missed the meaning of communication. My apologies for being annoyed, but you jumped into an argument against thin air directed at me for something I didn't say or imply.

The electric company doesn't provide communications. I had carte blanche phone service all my life until I switched to a cell phone, and now I have it again - $50 per month, no minutes, free voicemail, free texting, free internet (Boost Mobile). I don't have to pay by the minute to watch cable TV. Why should internet service be any different?

It shouldn't.

It shouldn't what? The electric company shouldn't communicate energy usage? If people could see in realtime what their energy consumption is then they would know where and how they could reduce the energy used. Those who go Off the Grid use meters that show their usage patterns. Some electric companies offer monitoring services where they can turn off a heavy energy using appliance, like air conditioners, during high demands. In return the customer receives a cut in prices.

Falcon

BS! People have been building off the grid since the beginning of civilization. Only those who do it today have electricity. Offgridders use various sources of alternative energy including geothermal, solar, wind, and microhydro along with others.

producing your own needs for electricity is great
but its a VERY SMALL amount of the world's total energy consumption.

Today off grid applications are small but it can easily be expanded. Solar, wind, and other systems can quickly be added. Solar panels can be placed of roofs for instance. Farmers can erect, or have erected, wind gennies on towers. They don't take up much space and they'll create a new source of income for farmers.

But the first thing offgridders do though is to reduce energy use, conserve electricity. Instead of using 75 watt incandescent lights, they'll use 15 watt CFLs or LEDs under 10 watts. For hot water, tankless instant on water heaters are more efficient. Solar hot water heater systems can bee used themselves, or can preheat water for instant on heaters. Passive solar designs can reduce any need for heating and cooling of indoor space, and with insulation with high R values heating and cooling can be eliminated. But even if heating is needed or wanted geothermal heating can be used. And by reversing the system when hot it can cool space as well.

There are many things that can be done to reduce energy consumed.

Falcon

funny enough I had a co-worker that had looked into solar-electric and stated it was too expensive even including subsidies.

Solar electric for hot water? Did he look into solar thermal? Of course if he doesn't get much sun it wouldn't work either way.

I recommended the solar-water heater as something to look into as it would have a decent payout period.

Yea, even with subsidies most alternative energy sources aren't good for short term savings. Potential buyers need to be made aware, if they already aren't, that the payback period can be several years or more. It's basically only when building Off the Grid where the payback period is only a few years. It can cost thousands of dollars to string powerlines just a thousand feet. If you're building that far out in a good location a solar electric system can be cheaper.

However even conventional power generators such as coal and gas get subsidies as well.

Falcon

Please by all means invest in your solar panels that cost $10 a watt. let me know how the goes for you.

First, I don't know where you got your "$10 a watt" but PV modules can be bought today that are under $5 a watt, Next, people who build Off the Grid do that all the tyme. Of course before they build a solar power system, or use any other alternative energy, they first conserve energy by using energy efficient power users. They'll use CFLs, which only use about a quarter of the power incandescent lights do, or LEDs, which use a tenth of the power. The building will be super insulated to dramatically reduce if not eliminate the energy needed to heat and cool the building. Instead of using refrigs and freezers with the compressors on button, they get hot and heat rises, they may use appliances with them on top. They will also be super insulated.

Falcon

For a suitably large grid, such as that being proposed in the US, wind can provide some 30%+? of it's capacity as baseload (as it's always blowing somewhere you see). From a British report IIRC.

The wind may be blowing somewhere but where? The further electricity has to be transmitted the more power is lost even with HVDC, High-voltage direct current. Now I'm not against alternative energy sources like solar and wind, I'd like to build a home Off the Grid powered by solar and/or wind, but there has to be a baseload of power. For Off the Grid applications batteries are used.

Falcon

.. is suitable for realistically providing power for the typical modern life.

People who live Off the Grid are disproving you every day.

Falcon

When buildings are sealed tighter and the air locked in them, things like radon gas become more of a problem. Along with formaldehyde and other pathogens.

So design better buildings.

There has to be a 'building industry revolution' for energy efficient housing to work. Meaning entirely new structures and methods of shelter.

There is one, LEED, sponsored by the US Green Building Council. It has some problems though. Then there's those who build Off the Grid using passive solar designs among other techniques.

Falcon

The good thing about solar/wind/wave etc. is that we can use it to lessen the need for more nuclear/coal energy, but even easier is to use less energy.

Define 'easier' please?

I' not sure if this is what you mean but here goes: Typically when people build homes Off the Grid the first thing they do is to reduce as much as they can how much power they will need. Instead of 10 or 20 incandescent light bulbs which are 60, 75, or 100 watts they'll use 12, 15, or 24 watt compact florescent light bulbs. Instead of building a home that requires a large heating and cooling system, they'll design it so it uses more insulation and the walls have a higher R value. With a good R value for the location little to no heating or cooling will be needed. For a clothes washing machine instead of using a top loading machine, they'll get a side loading machine which will only use half of the electricity the top loading ones use, as well as only half the water. To dry the clothes they'll use a clothesline.

There are a number of things those going off the grid do to reduce the energy they need. They go through all this because it's cheaper to reduce their energy needs than it is to build a larger solar, wind, or whatever energy system.

Falcon

Yes, decentralized generation can be good when it works, but why do we need it?

How about we try it this way, "yes, decentralized computers can be a good thing when they work, but why do we need them?" People who live Off the Grid generate their own energy and get along just fine without centralized power. Then when there's a blackout they're the only ones with power.

I don't feel that coal is a choice. It is too dangerous. In my opinion, it needs to be off the table as an option. If it did not exist, we would find a way and we would be fine.

I don't feel that coal or nuclear power is a choice. They are too dangerous. In my opinion, they need to be off the table as an option. If they did not exist, we would find a way and we would be fine.

Falcon

given that someone has to build and service a windmill, and that you need a lot of them to replace even a single nuclear power plant, and that working on a high tower is inherently dangerous, which would actually cause more deaths, wind or nuclear ?

Ask those who build their homes Off the Grid and erect their own wind genies how dangerous they are.

Falcon

If there was 1 Gbps fiber available, open wlreless and municipal wifi would never work....

Actually it would work as it would cost too much to lay fiber everywhere. Fiber can be laid to central points from which wireless providers can tap into the fiber. Wireless is afterall cheaper. Many people who build off the grid use solar or other energy sources for power because it's cheaper. If you build a home a few miles from the closest power line it can cost more to have the powerlines installed than a PV system will cost. The last I heard, to lay 1000 feet of powerlines can cost something like $1000 so one mile would cost more than $5000. And fiber cost more.

Related to this a few years ago IEEE's "Spectrum" had an article about how a group of US engineers setup radio towers to provide wireless access to a village in Southeast Asia, in Cambodia or Viet Nam. It was the cheapest way to provide net access.

Falcon

No, HVDC isn't really any more costly than AC, and over long distances it loses less power even with loses due to inverters.

The problem is that we continue to use AC power.

Originally we used DC. Thomas Edison's power company in NYC was DC. It was only after Tesla pushed for AC, backed by Westinghouse, did AC become dominate. Edison even tried to electrocute an elephant in the War of Currents to discredit AC. Unfortunately the elephant was made to suffer by being electrocuted a number of tymes, Edison wasn't successful in killing the elephant at first. It wasn't until 2007 before all the DC power in NYC was changed to AC. However NYC's Subway system still runs on DC. And people who build their homes Off the Grid, and there are more and more people doing it, all use DC.

Solar power is a great advancement, but it simply cannot provide the energy needs of the country at this time. Supplemental use is good but the infrastructure needed to support wide scale solar use is simply too inefficient and expensive.

Therein lies the problem, I made the mistake myself in not talking about distributed power generation. Most people including you want the next big thing to solve everything. If instead of building large power plants and relying on the infrastructure of large powerlines transmission wouldn't be such a big problem. In California almost every building could have PVs installed on the roof providing some power. While Washington may not be a good place for solar, it's great for wind. And a 5 megawatt wind genie on 5 acres can provide power for a number of families and small businesses. With power generation closer to where it's used large powerlines aren't needed as much. Places like Boeing's factory in Seattle will need more power than the site can provide, but those place are few and far between each other.

Falcon

Big words coming from someone busily plugging away at a keyboard which is attached to a computer that is certainly sucking up its share of electricity. Gee, where you do you think that energy is coming from? Does your house/apartment/whatever run completely on solar/hydro/wind power?

I agreed with you until I got here. Where I live wind genies produce some energy and a lot more can be added. As for where GP can get his energy, New York is a good location for more wind genies. Between Massachusetts and North Carolina, NYC is in there, the offshore resources for wind are good too. Unfortunately NIMBYs are preventing offshore wind farms, er doing what they can to stop them.

Does your house/apartment/whatever run completely on solar/hydro/wind power?

I rent now but I want to build my home Off the Grid and build a hybrid power system using solar and wind.

Do you grow and eat your own food?

Though I live in a city, downtown Minneapolis is about 15 minutes bike ride (as it's too much a hassle I will not drive there), I have shared some of the food I grow in my garden with neighbors. By the end of the month I should be able to start making sauces and soups from the basil, onions, tomatillos, and tomatoes I'm growing then can it. The food I can should last me the rest of the year. Then again though I'm single, as I said earlier I also share what I grow.

Falcon

OK. In my original reply, I should probably have specified explicitly that I was responding to the claim about total available service.

Okay.

The typical household (depending on climate, of course) has mainstream electric heaters, not geothermal.

... unless you're suggesting that anyone installing a solar/hydrogen power system would also be using geothermal or heat pump systems? That sounds almost reasonable, given that you were talking about average rather than peak loads.

It seems obvious to me, but perhaps I should have stated it. When you're talking about, or working on, a new energy system the first thing you should do is look into becoming more energy efficient. By investing a little in efficiency, like those who build Off the Grid do, a little investment here can cut your total energy needs and bills. I live on the grid in a big city, downtown Minneapolis is less than 15 minutes bike ride, however out of 7 light fixtures 6 have 12 watt CFLs. The seventh light I've had on less than 100 hours in the more than 4 years I've lived here, when those bulbs burnout I'll replace them with CFLs.

Falcon

I did not throw in system maintenance costs, which probably exist but I can't make an educated guess as to what they'd be.

Basic system maintenance is basically spraying off the panels to keep objects like leafs off. the rest of the components don't need much maintenance. Where maintenance is an issue is with batteries, which should only be used if the system is Off The Grid. Now, if you want you can record data on the performance of the system, like how much electricity it is producing. TFA's writer does this through the installer's system over the net. If you wanted do you could have data transmitted to your computer though. With this data you can optimize the system.

Also, due to time value of money, the increase in house value in 30 years would have to be quite large in order to equal the up-front payment.

Not if the cost is rolled into the mortgage, interest on the mortgage of a primary residence, the home you live in, is tax deductible. And more and more lenders are taking steps to allow people to install alternative energy systems like solar and wind. In some cases they lower interest or allow borrowers to borrow more. Mortgage companies realize such systems reduce living expenses and so may be willing to do these. The first page of results for googling solar mortgage shows two mortgage lenders who finance solar systems. Heck, one of the results, "The Mortgage Crisis Delivers a Hit to Solar Firms" goes over how the solar industry is affected by the mortgage crisis.

Net of all of this discussion: it still isn't a good decision based solely on financial terms unless the amount it adds to house value in the near-term is large (especially considering the high variability of some of the key cost savings).

Oh, I agree. Installing a solar energy system IS NOT good if you want a short term payoff, it's only good for the longer term financially. Then again most home buyers don't flip houses, buy a house then sale it again after a short period, say after making some improvements. There's no reason to for most people though, there are only three or four reasons to sell your home. Your first one is your starter home where you and your spouse, or significant other, live. You sell it and buy a bigger home when your family grows, then sell that one and buy a smaller one when the children have left. Of course if you move away you'll sale your old home and buy a new one where you move to.

Falcon

But the big whammy is a significant chunk of that 40gs is for the batteries which have to be replaced periodically.

Batteries? Where did he say he got batteries? I must have missed it. Doing an intertie system like he did there is no need for batteries. You only need them if you're Off The Grid. And while batteries have among to shortest warranties you can get some with 7 year warranties like Surrette batteries, 2 years full and 5 prorated. As this site says "Batteries are expensive" but only need to be replace every 7 to 10 years.

Falcon

With that said, I suggest you read the submitter's words more closely:

Okay. I did miss the part about wiring the house.

Finally, as for CFLs, 1/4 of a hell of a lot of electricity, is still a hell of a lot of electricity. Even with a small house, you're still almost certain to draw more power for just lighting than a large appliance would.

I have 6 light fixtures with 2 12 watt CFLs in each. If I turned all of them on at the same tyme, I have at most 3 on at any 1 tyme and then only for a few minutes at most, that comes to 144 watts. I just checked the power my expresso-cappuccino uses and that's 900 watts and I'm sure the refrigerator uses much more. However my scanner only used 15 watts, the TV 126, and the dvd player 23. So it really depends on what appliances are going to be used. Now if submitter wants to wire the while house then yes a pro should design and wire the system. Especially, seeing as how the person doesn't say they are Off the Grid, because it would need to be intertied.

Assuming the current price of electricity is $0.10/kWh it will pay for itself in ~1.14 years. However, that does not include the cost of installation, a rectifier, or batteries/controller.

With intertie, other than the panels all you really need is an inverter. You only need batteries and the rest if you're Off the Grid.

Look, you can claim that all you want, but it's just not true.

I'll switch that around, no matter what you claim it's not true! People who build Off the Grid are proving you wrong every day.

Sure - if you only want to furnish your home from the limited range of DC appliances available

While choices for DC appliances aren't as big as there are for AC there are still DC appliances available and as any semi-free market the more people demand them the more businesses will offer them. Those who build Off the Grid have to go through this.

The problem with traditional solar is that the capital costs are so high, you'll never catch up with the interest.

While the capital costs of solar is high, the interest can be paid for in savings, for those who build off the grid. More and more mortgage lenders are offering interest rates lower for building that are energy efficient and have a solar or other alternative energy system built in. Many also offer higher mortgages to pay for them, they are able to do this because such a system reduces or eliminates the the monthly expense of power. The cost of solar is rolled into the cost of the building and what interest is paid is tax deductible. Some solar systems have a payback period as low as 7 years, ie the cost of the system is paid for in 7 years because of the lower costs of power. However this ignores inflation, the costs of electricity continues to rise whereas the cost of solar is in the equipment only has to be paid occasionally. The warranty of equipment can be 20 years or longer, the shortest period I've seen is 7 years. However because of the progressive march of technology equipment only gets more efficient and prices drop, so even if something has a 20 year warranty the owner may still want to replace something with a new one.