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Switching To Solar Power – One Month Later
ThinSkin writes "After an interesting article on solar panel installation for the home, Loyd Case at ExtremeTech has written a follow-up after about a month of normal use. Posting an $11.34 electric bill (roughly 3% of previous months), Loyd shares his experiences using solar power and how it can be fun for the geek, with computer monitoring services and power generation data. Of course, solar power isn't all fun and games, given the amount of required maintenance — even unpredictable maintenance, like wiping off accumulated ash from fires in Northern California."
... even though it was raining cats and dogs today. I'm still using it withou
According to the article California will not allow homeowners to sell more power back into the grid than they are buying. He doesn't say why. I don't understand the reasoning for such a restriction, since the possibility of selling more than you buy would encourage wider adoption.
If 'the people' in Amendment 2 are 'the state' then Amendments 1, 2, 4, 9, and 10 benefit the state, not you.
Wait to winter time when there is less sun to see how much you save at that time.
I want to see what happens to usage in winter! When buns are a cold and Mhz use increases due to rainy days!
trix are for kids mutherfucker!
That's right and responsible energy use is for adults. I like to see things like this, and as some might decry the amount of involvement one must provide to effectively commit to a project along similar lines. Though I personally think people (especially in the U.S.) could really benefit from having to be more involved in the production and usage of the energy they consume.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
From TFA:
Wait to winter time when there is less sun to see how much you save at that time.
In Alaska, maybe. I doubt that it will affect the California resident's generation ability.
This is actually quite striking. I worked on a solar/wind project last year and the solar panel we were using was an 80W rated panel (normally provides a little over 60W in full sunlight at these latitudes), but I never realized how much your eyes compensate for the variation in illumination levels. When it was cloudy in the winter, even when you could see perfectly well and thought it was rather bright outside, the solar panel was only pumping out about 2 or 3 watts.
The idea is that it tends to be windy and sunny alternately, which is somewhat true, so they market wind and solar as a good combo, but the fact is the amount you have to spend to get the same power from wind is way more than the equivalent amount for solar, and trust me there are lots of times when it was calm and overcast for weeks.
Still I think the most economical setup would be to find a way to reduce the hardware as much as possible. Let's say you have air conditioning for instance. Take a solar panel, use it to charge a single 12V auto battery, and then use a voltage sensitive relay to turn on a surplus 12V marine air conditioner. Basically the solar charges up the battery. When there's enough power in there, the air conditioner kicks on and runs for 15 minutes or so and drains the charge out of the battery. The sunnier it is, the more the air conditioner runs, and that means your central air (powered by the grid) runs less. The benefit is that you don't need to fuss with inverters and big battery packs.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
money going towards assets rather than a simple debt. Would you rather own or rent?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
So he saved about $330/month. It cost him $36K (which really cost $50K, but let's say). So it'll take 109 months to get back the money, or 9 years, not adjusting for inflation and investment opportunity cost. Let's say that brings it up to 12 years. Not including maintenance and repairs. It might even need complete replacement at that point. At 50K, which is the real cost, we're talking more like 16-18 years.
That's still a bit too long an investment for this to be really practical. Prices need to come down to about a four year payoff before I'd be really interested.
On another subject, I'm kind of glad to see someone who actually uses more electricity than I do. :)
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Sounds like someone who threw money at a problem better handled by conservation.
Believe me, i LOVE solar, but solar works better when it isn't the only solution.
And the grid = Windows?
As opposed to saving nothing at all??
Does it really go from less than a cent per kWh to 13 cents? Or is this Verizon Math?
Assuming it's 15.566 cents, why does it go down and then up based on use? Bizarre!
-Peter
Well a house in Calif* with a clear view of the sky & enough room for 27 solar panels is about $2 million. So it's a choice between saving $250 on electricity or saving $2 million on housing.
It sure will. Even in California or here in Florida you have fewer hours of sun in the winter. Since most people on solar are trying to live on far less energy than a human needs to be comfortable in order to utilize technology that simply isn't cost effective yet, I have no doubt they will be borrowing from the grid in winter.
On the other hand, unlike the northern states, power usage in these places is also reduced. In warm climate areas you stay inside in the summer to avoid the weather rather than the winter.
. . . a beowulf cluster of solar panels on your [mother's] house! It ought to power your beowulf cluster in your [mother's] basement!
So this guy is using DC solar panels, converting it to AC with an inverter, and then using it primarily to power...a computer lab, which just convert it back to DC. There must be at least 50% loss in this. AC was designed for transmission lines, which run for miles.
When the distance from source to sink is measured in meters instead, wouldn't it make sense to avoid the inversion step, and just use a voltage stepdown transformer, keeping everything DC? You'd have to install DC power supplies into your computers. Do those even exist? Of course power not going to computers could be run into an inverter to power other household AC things...
I think the switch to local power generation may require the (re)invention of DC infrastructure for within the house.
-- Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
That would be a nice idea if marine a/c units weren't ungodly expensive.
Mod parent up! I am posting from a house with four 80W solar panels on a rainy day and the generator is on. If you want to go solar you need a lot of batteries and a lot of panels.
Of course, we don't have the convenience of mains power at all.
F.Y.I
Current usage is; 1 laptop (80W), 1 low power fridge (120W), 1 one modem (8W). Storage is 4 deep cycle batteries.
so... He states that it was an approximately $36,000 initial investment (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2308684,00.asp). Also, approximately $332 in monthly utility fee savings (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2326045,00.asp). That's just over 9 years before he breaks even, assuming no significant maintenance costs or other "surprises". Not bad... personally I can't wait until this technology improves a bit further and prices drop so the initial investment is a feasible option for the average family!
2. Are they bolted on? Any locking mechanisms?
3. Is it easy to climb on to the roof?
4. Do you have good access to a road from the home?
5. When are you planning to take a vacation?
6. Does it have any kind of GPS thingie or Wifi thingie attached that will phone home?
Thanks buddy.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The panels the author referenced in the story are guaranteed to resist up to 1" hail falling at 52 MPH. But 1" is considered small in this part of the country - we routinely get tennis ball-sized or even larger chunks during storms, and they're falling a hell of a lot faster than 52 MPH. So some sort of robust shielding material as an add-on would be a necessity if I were to install these. Either that or the first thunderstorm we got would destroy a $50,000 investment.
No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
There was this one guy who rigged up a window unit ac in his truck useing a 12Vdc to 120Vac inverter.
Though I personally think people (especially in the U.S.) could really benefit from having to be more involved in the production and usage of the energy they consume.
I prefer that people stick to doing what they do best and thus provide greater wealth to humanity through specialization (as mathematically proven by Ricardo).
I hate articles like this because they mislead people. Solar is NOT a way to save money and every sucker who is drawn in by this idea will be turned off solar for a long time.
These kind of articles always ignore the real costs and usually just look at the cost of the panels. But the panels aren't the only consideration, you have to consider the cost of the battery bank and the cost of replacing the batteries periodically. You won't get the full life out the batteries either, that constant charge and discharge is going to reduce the capacity of those batteries quickly.
The other cost is both in terms of economics and comfort. To actually be able to come close to living on that small solar output you are going to need to install all new appliances and run a water heater that will deliver luke warm water at best. You are going to have to come to terms with being frugile with power in almost action you take from there on in.
a number of people do that here in florida if a hurricane knocks out power. A lot more plug A/C units into gas generators which are basically the same thing without the truck.
$11.34 + this months payment on the loan covering the costs of installation + costs of maintenance and operation.
Residential solar installations typically have no batteries, so there is no maintenance cost for batteries, nor replacement costs. This type of installation uses the grid as a kind of giant battery, feeding power to the grid during the day and drawing from the grid at night.
Yes, but how many hours of sunlight in Alaska in the summer, when most of the residents and tourists are there? Perhaps they can pipeline it down to rainy Seattle?
1. They are somewhat heavy (50 lbs). They are awkwardly large at 5ftx3ft. Two person job if you don't want to risk a rooftop fall.
2. They are typically bolted on. Uninstall time will be in the several minutes per panel range. Be sure you have an electrician with you to avoid death by electric shock.
3. You can see in the pictures he has a typical roof. Bring a ladder. And a crane if you want an easier time lowering the panels.
4. Yes, see the pictures.
5. Don't know about that one. Probably end of December or next summer.
6. Doubtful.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
For some people it's not only about saving money but being a good environmental steward.
He's should've bought like 2 less solar panels and used the money to paint his house some color other than pink.
It sure will. Even in California or here in Florida you have fewer hours of sun in the winter. Since most people on solar are trying to live on far less energy than a human needs to be comfortable in order to utilize technology that simply isn't cost effective yet, I have no doubt they will be borrowing from the grid in winter.
Of course, if you'd RTFA, you'd know that the author mentioned that and figured his overall power bill to go from $4000 to roughly $1000 yearly.
You'd also have known that he states his power usage is higher than your typical family home due to the fact that both he and his wife work from home, he's got two teenage daughters, a pc lab, and pretty hdtv setups around his house. (thus the $4000/yr electric bill in the first place)
If you wanted to be a crotchety bitch, which clearly you did, you would have mentioned that it'll take him roughly 11-15 years to recoup his investment of $40,000 for the equipment and setup. That's what I'd go with.
You'll have that sometimes...
Value of the addon != Increase in house price. The new owner has to want (and be willing and able to pay for) the solar augmentation. It might even be worthless to the new owner, who's not willing to deal with the maintenance.
Plus, there's depreciation, replacement cost for the panels and other materials, and so on. If he breaks even on this, either through sale or plain old energy generation, I'll be amazed.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
That's a terrible way of being a good environmental steward. He could use those resources in a different way that is much more efficient but instead they are being wasted on something highly inefficient. That's like saying building an ethanol plant is being a good environmental steward.
What are you using for an ISP if you have no connections?
Today it's hard to make solar actually pay for itself. At California's high-tier rates, it is possible, but still takes a lot of work.
He says he put in $36,000 and will save $3,300 per year in payments to the power company. Now the historical annual rate of return of an S&P 500 index fund is 11.3% over the last century, so $36K put there would return over $4,000 -- enough to pay the $3,300 to the grid, have $700 left over and of course, still keeping the principal. Compared to that, the panels are losing money each year and will never pay for themselves -- unless grid power goes up a lot.
And grid power might go up, but only so far. Because eventually the grid power hits the solar price, and the grid itself starts putting in solar sources at that price -- because it's cheaper.
Most solar installations lose money hand over fist outside of California's high priced tiers. Today, solar comes in about 20 cents/kwh (at more like a 6% interest rate, not the 11.3% rate of the stock market.)
Try this spreadsheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pWKShknjJFBt7sOTCJre_SQ&hl=en
To work out the real cost.
It's worse if you consider that at the true cost of the system before rebates -- $48K if I read right, it really loses money.
Now, I'm not saying it's not good to put in solar to be greener, or that the government shouldn't be providing subsidies to make this happen.
I just don't want people to use the wrong math to think they are saving money, when in fact they are spending more (for a purpose.)
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
I prefer that people stick to doing what they do best and thus provide greater wealth to humanity through specialization (as mathematically proven by Ricardo [wikipedia.org]).
You and every banker.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
I like this approach better and it's a win / win for everybody.
You forgot to engage the hydropower backup generator.
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
Not cost effective? He went from a $348 bill to a $11 bill.. It will go down in the winter of course, as you say. But it will "pay for itself" in a short period of time.
If you wanted to be a crotchety bitch, which clearly you did, you would have mentioned that it'll take him roughly 11-15 years to recoup his investment of $40,000 for the equipment and setup. That's what I'd go with.
Unless of course the price of energy rises significantly, then he will probably "recoup his investment" quicker. Not to mention that he is less dependant on energy companies and that the effectiveness of solar panels is bound to increase. As mentioned in this earlier Slashdot post:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/solarcells-0710.html
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/11/2017237
Even if solar panels only reduces your energy consumption during the summer; if everyone in a relevant area did this perhaps the general price of energy would drop; even during winter. Since the general consumption would be reduced.
The Long Now Foundation
Yea, I was shocked at how much energy the family in this article uses. My GF and I average ~370kWh/month, 4,440kWh/year. We live in Mountain View, which is the next small city over from Sunnyvale. The family in this article is using 17,400kWh/year. If he expects a 20% drop in usage when the family becomes 2 people, that's still THREE TIMES what we use. I also have a home server and network.
I think he means that the A/C was installed _in_ the truck, not hooked up to run off of power from the truck.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
It doesn't matter if there are no batteries. The low efficiency of solar panels keep small residential installations from being cost effective in the long run. A friend of mine runs a solar install business and the first thing he does when a potential customer calls is to warns them that unless their power bills are around $1000* a month, it won't save them money.
*I don't remember the exact dollar amount he told me, but the average residential power bill is not nearly enough.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
I realize in the article's case they are plugging into the grid so they don't need batteries but how green are batteries used in off the grid housing?
Sometimes my arms bend back.
Working against that, you need to amortize your capital costs and pay for maintenance. Still, in some parts of the country, solar can indeed give you a reasonable mortgage length and IRR
Why must all aquatic villains play the organ?
By coincidence, today is the day I got my first yearly bill for my new photovoltaic system. Where I live (Orange County, CA, with Southern California Edison as my utility), people who have residential PV systems get billed yearly rather than monthly. A year is also pretty much the minimum amount of time for which you need data in order to find out how your system is performing, since both your energy production and your energy use fluctuate seasonally.
My bill for this year was $353.63. The system is nominally 4.4 kW, and cost $28k after rebate. It's covering about 90% of our use, which was almost exactly what we shot for -- if we produce more than we use over 12 months, they don't pay us for the excess.
People always want to know the number of years until the system pays for itself. Basically that's utterly impossible to predict. There's a reason that they exclude energy from the consumer price index -- it's because energy prices are extremely volatile. If the increased price of fossil fuels starts to be reflected in the cost of electricity, then I'm going to look like a financial genius. The other thing that's completely unknowable is how fast the technology will progress. If there's a breakthrough in technology five years from now, and the price of panels per kilowatt comes down by a factor of two, then I'll wish I'd waited. It's also kind of funny hearing the quick-buck psychological attitude a lot of Americans have toward investing money in something like this; from the way people talk, you'd think they were going to take that money that could have gone into photovoltaics and invest it in some kind of magical pixie dust that was guaranteed to pay a steady 20% annually until the end of time. And finally, beware of anyone making blanket statements about whether PV is ready for prime time or not. It completely depends on factors like the price of electricity in your area, which way your roof faces, your latitude, the amount of cloudy weather, and the amount of shade. PV is like Linux: it's ready for prime time for some people, and it's not ready for prime time for other people.
Find free books.
If interest in home solar rigs increase, and research continues to improve the quality and effectiveness of the panels, sooner or later, hopefully, we should have a rig that is relatively easy to install, robust and produces relevant quantities of energy. Until then the decision to get a solar energy rig is dependant on many factors; but if you find it will make sense for you to do it then by all means.
The Long Now Foundation
Gee, that's not exactly an "Aha! Gotcha!" kind of observation.
Of course he's going to save less energy in the Winter than the Summer. When you figure out how long it will take to pay back the investment, you take that into account. As of today, it probably doesn't make sense for most people financially compared to other possible uses for the capital. Most people will find conservation measures a better investment.
However, that's not the reason to do this. The reason to do this is to take part in creating a new future, and that means trying things before they're a no brainer. Now dropping your electricity bill to $12 bucks any month of the year, without living like a medieval monk is pretty impressive. That probably mean you're onto something interesting in the creating the future game. It doesn't mean you're going to earn your investment back at $330/month year round, comparing Apples (March) to Oranges (June) is just bragging. Things will be different in July with greater heat and a bit less sun, but that's OK.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think I saw that on the Red Green show. Only instead of a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter, he tried to use a step up transformer. Which might even work if you hooked up a DPDT toggle switch and jiggled it back and forth 60 times per second...
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Comment removed based on user account deletion
isn't civilization, and the fact that you think it is indicates a deeply flawed view of the world.
he isn't really saving anything right NOW.... but if he lives in that house for another 12 years? then he breath a sigh of relief.. it's too bad that solar panels are so god damned expensive. I didn't read the original article but I would guess he paid $25k, maybe $35k for the installation... the purification process for the silicone base is intensive.. Too bad the chinese haven't figured out how to cheapen it up like everything else they've touched.
I think the poster was referring to being more involved as in an accountant working full time as an accountant can still be involved in the production and usage of the food he consumes by having a pair of chickens who provide eggs for breakfast (and make great pets!).
But then, I could be wrong, perhaps he was championing the idea that street sweepers become reaction controllers in nuclear power plants - if that's the case I'm moving to the sticks with a bow & arrow.
Two Parts Swash, One Part Buckle
so i saved a few hundred dollars a year but had to spend 38K ????? what the hell is the point. PV can't ever replace base load power sources.
note i'm not entirely against solar, there has been some interesting work done with molten salt which is cheap tech. the problem is nothing using that process can generate enough power. i think our future lies in something like solar thermal salt and nuke stations simmering away providing the base load, turning them up if weather prevents the solar thermal handling the peaks.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Guys -- you all seem to be neglecting the recent developments in solar financing.
(Disclaimer -- I do work for SolarCity http://solarcity.com/, a leading installer of residential solar arrays in the SF Bay Area and beyond. I won't make a totally shameless plug here, I'm trying to be fair to the other good and clever solar companies out there. A rising tide lifts all boats!)
By bringing in a 3rd party commercial owner via an Operating Lease or Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) structure, the customer can save money from solar on Day 1.
The 3rd party (an investment fund, or perhaps the solar company themselves) owns the system and claim the full range of available incentives. As opposed to residential owners, commercial owners can take accelerated depreciation on the system, and can take the full 30% federal tax credit (rather than facing a $2k cap), and they also get whatever state/local/utility incentives are available as per usual. The customer has a low (or zero) down-payment, and makes monthly payments over a period of ~15-18 years. The tax investor receives a reasonable return on their investment over time, the installer makes reasonable margins on the installation, and the customers can save money from Day 1. Everybody wins!
So to use the parent submitter's house as an example of what we can do -- For a $300/month average bill in Sunnyvale, CA, we might recommend a 7kW DC system. Assuming the customer had decent credit (720 FICO), we would require no down payment, and then charge monthly lease payments of $181/mo, for 15 years. The monthly payments do go up at 3.5% per year (we could alternatively have 0% escalation, but of course that would require a higher starting payment and so it's harder to show savings right away... there are many possible variations here. Also remember that local PG&E utility rates are increasing at >5% per year on average).
With this 7kW system, they might expect their average monthly bill to go from $300 to $72 per month. Add the $181/month payment, and their new average monthly electricity cost is (181 + 72) = $153/month, for immediate savings of ~$47/mo!!
The installers offering these plans usually offer full service/maintenance for the life of the lease, including replacement of the DC/AC inverter if necessary.
The customer is given the opportunity to purchase the system after years 6/10/15, or if they have to move or sell their house. The panels are warranted by the manufacturers to last 25+ years, so a long-term buy-and-hold strategy is solid. Or, if the customer looks around in 15 years and sees a better/cheaper technology, or just doesn't wish to renew or buy out), they are free to end the lease and we'll remove the panels at our cost.
The customer who understands Net Present Value (NPV) calculations can easily demonstrate that this offers far superior savings compared to either a) doing nothing, or b) purchasing the system for cash.
So before you all roll your eyes about solar being a poor investment with a 12+ year paybacks, please consider such alternative financing approaches.
I put a 3kw system on my roof in February, 2005. (I live in Silicon Valley). My electricity bill has been zero since then -- well, actually, $60/yr in some fee PG&E charges. My total electricity cost for the previous three years (2002-2004) was $6,730. Installation of the solar panels cost a net of $13,369 after rebates. So I've saved 50% of the cost already, and my house is worth more due to the presence of the solar power array. I took advantage of California rebates which were higher then than now, though, so that's a bummer.
Expending $50k in resources and emitting $50k in carbon to save a few hundred bucks a month on electricity is NOT "being a good environmental steward." If anything, he's barely breaking even (n
I think the power Co charges a "connection" fee whether or not you are sucking up their energy. For instance out meter outside is broken, and the power co has yet to notice. The wheel does not move AT ALL and its been this way for months. They still charge us roughly $20/mo. (vs the 150+/mo when it was working)
you insensitive clod!
in terms of measuring live solar data, there's an open source project at: http://www.solarnetwork.net/ that is collecting and charting live data from Outback, MorningStar and Xantrex devices. let me know if anyone has an interest in participating, or leave a note on the site. thanks!
Unless you live out in the boondocks, there's no need for a battery backup system (unless you don't want the down time when the power goes out).
You really haven't looked into this then. With a grid-tie you feed excess power to the grid. In effect the power grid is your battery. So please disregard your battery concerns as this isn't a remotely deployed system.
I have no TV. No washing machine. Not even a boiler (my hot water is run off from the power plant). I wash my clothes in a laundromat, I get my TV fix on a cheapo laptop and my lights are LED. I think the only appliance I have that draws any real power is the refrigerator... If I could power the lights and refrigerator on solar I'd have no bills. A trip to the laundromat is also more comfortable than doing it myself, imho. A really pretty Pakistani girl does the hard work and as a sideline I get to chat her up. Not many attractive Asian babes in my basement last time I looked.
Solar is NOT a way to save money and every sucker who is drawn in by this idea will be turned off solar for a long time.
Depends on the future cost of utility-supplied electricity though, doesn't it? Buying solar panels for your roof is like buying a futures contract on electricity: in return for your money, you are (more or less) guaranteed a certain amount of electricity for a certain amount of time at a certain price. Whether or not you 'save money' depends on what the alternative price will be over that period. If you thought that electric rates were going to go up significantly in the near future, then solar panels might be a nice hedge against that.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
i would guess an evdo card connected to the laptop. my ac595u runs nicely for 2 hrs off a laptop.
Too bad the chinese haven't figured out how to cheapen it up like everything else they've touched.
They're working on it... give them a few more years. They'd probably have it done already if they weren't so distracted by that Olympics thing. ;^)
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
but I never realized how much your eyes compensate for the variation in illumination levels. When it was cloudy in the winter, even when you could see perfectly well and thought it was rather bright outside, the solar panel was only pumping out about 2 or 3 watts.
Ah, a solar panel does not have the same sensitivity to various wavelengths as your eye does. Solar panels tend to only use a narrow band or two out of the visible spectrum whereas your eyes are much more sensitive over a much wider range.
Also semi-off topic the peak sensitivity of the human eye is the same wavelength as the suns peak output. Also, the visible spectrum is a narrow band of the EM spectrum that is more-or-less unaffected by the atmosphere. I find this sort of synchronicity absolutely fascinating.
The problem with solar is the efficiency of conversion verses the the cost of production and maintenance.
While I think solar will eventually be the energy production method of choice it is still a poor choice for mass production. You have to take in the cost of making the panels/collectors, the cost to maintain an the waste generated during production of the panels and disposal once the panels reach the end of their lives.
Right now I think wind energy is the far better choice for mass production and while many find it distasteful and have an outright unreasoning dislike and fear of nuclear energy it is still the best option for backbone energy production when power plants are placed by recycling breeder reactors.
Isn't it a Federal law?
.. people [/] could really benefit from having to be more involved in the production and usage of the energy they consume.
Every time I read that it becomes more profound.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
I think if you're going to mention the stock market you need more analysis. Did you calculate Risk? The stock market traditionally returns 11.83%, however there's never a sure return. The returns are so high because of risk. A little googling and you can find that if you missed the 90 best days of trading over the last 7000+ days... the return will drop to 3.5%+/- Which means volatility accounted for 8% of the return.
So if you look at that, and you take into account that the return of your solar panels will be pretty much constant and your risk should be mitigated through home owners insurance that you should have anyways. A constant return of 6-7% is pretty good to me. Its like a very safe bond investment.
Then there's the added benefit of energy autonomy and environmental impact. It rarely happens that power is out on a sunny day, but it does happen that a storm knocks it out for a few days and you're the guy on the block with power on day 2.
The price of energy is not going to go down either. If anything it'll get more expensive as demand increases - unless there's abundant private generation and a reverse on the grid which would increase supply significantly. This would also require a change in regulation. If this happens, I'll be happy to eat my own words because the world will certainly be better off.
All in all, I'd say right now, its a break-even investment when compared to other safe options and one that returns a hell of a lot more goodwill (and that's something you pay for in an M&A deal too).
Or, you can have the traditional marketing reason.
1a. Much like any retail store, you have wholesale price*(the one the store BUYS it at) and retail price(the one the store sells it at). The difference pays salaries, premises costs, taxes, misc expenses. That's why stores won't let you return items from other stores to them - you'd essentially be selling it to them for retail, which doesn't make them any profit. Consider yourself lucky you can use the power company for load balancing for only the monthly connection fee.
1b. Historically, electricity production has scaled well. Roughly speaking, this means a power station becomes cheaper per watt of capacity and kwh of production the larger it is. A gigawatt plant is cheaper for the capacity than a megawatt one is cheaper than a diesel than a gasoline.
2. Micropower wouldn't really hurt government income at all - maintenance will still need to be done. The algae farm will need workers(who will be paid, and therefore taxed). Road taxes will have to be paid on the fuel. Likely more workers than what a traditional oil well would require for an equivalent amount of diesel or other fuel. As a bonus they'd actually be in the states. The fact that it's a coop doesn't mean that it doesn't need to pay taxes.
3. How would the cost of living be reduced? If it was truly cheaper we would of already done it.
*Real wholesale, not the fake wholesale that is frequently marketing
I don't read AC A human right
I would mod you +1 insightful, but I posted to the thread further down
If you wanted to be a crotchety bitch, which clearly you did, you would have mentioned that it'll take him roughly 11-15 years to recoup his investment of $40,000 for the equipment and setup. That's what I'd go with.
Yeah, that's why I generally just look at cost per Kwh - Solar scales from 500 to 5000 kwh/month - all costs scale more or less in line. The 5000kwh system will cost roughly 9-10x the 500kwh one, because solar does scale up somewhat well. It's just that until recently the sheer cost of solar also made things like upgrading to a sunfrost refrigerator that uses a fraction of the power, but costs 10X as much as a standard efficiency fridge.
If anything it makes more sense for Al Gore to install solar - he uses enough juice to make a large system practical sooner. That and disconnected houses that are far from utility poles.
I recently looked at a booth where the guy was trying to sell wind turbines - in my area, even with high wind, I'd be looking at spending $10k to save $10/month. I have less remaining lifespan than the payoff period. He was talking about possibly getting subsidies for the smaller turbines next year. I think subsidies miss the point - looking at the system, all the parts are commodity, there just isn't much room for cost savings for bulk production. It'll never make economic sense. Big turbines just make more sense. For example, rather than me putting up a small turbine, the whole town cooperates and puts up a big one(or three).
I don't read AC A human right
This is not necessarily the case...
Say for example your in the market for a new home. You plan on spending $250K to $350k. You find a great house for $300K. --> 30 yr mortgage @ 5% is ~ $1610 per month. (bankrate.com/mortgage calc...) Now say you find decide to have a full solar array installed as part of the cost of your new home. Let's say your a real geek and decide to get the mother of all solar arrays for $50k. Your home now costs $350K --> 30 yr mortgage @ 5% is ~ $1880 per month. The difference is $270 per month. Loyd Case's March bill is $348.26 and his June bill is $11.34; that's a difference of ~$337. Your solarage may vary :-) Now you begin to see the real cost-as-a-percentage -of-your-home. Which is probably closer to zero even before consideration any grants/rebates/etc. from the government. (which is composed of oil zealots, by the way)
Since you have the MOASA you'll probably pay 0. You may decide to sell it the excess to your neighbors if possible. That's probably too much trouble. You being the uber geek that you are will probably decide to use those excess Kwh's to power you garage electrolyzer whereby producing your own hydrogen gas which powers you fuel cell car. And since you have finally achieved the uber uber geekdom that you have always aspired to you can live happily ever after.
enufsaid.
There's a reason that they exclude energy from the consumer price index -- it's because energy prices are extremely volatile.
No, it actually has quite a bit of stability.. in its skyrocketing trend.
It skyrocketed during the gulf war in 1990, and pretty much stayed at that price afterward, and it continues to skyrocket today.
The reason it's excluded from the CPI is to allow politicians to claim the economy is just fine when people are pawning off their furniture to get to work each week.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Personally, I prefer to be a well-rounded individual, with a broad and ever-expanding skillset. Too much specialization can be deadly, from a business standpoint. Just ask your local Haberdasher.
where are you getting your facts? Your arse? Or your boyfriends?
OK, I'm interested. Where do you recommend picking up these cheap retired panels still generating 75% of their rated power? (And how cheap?)
Oh yeah sure, unless of course they need it to power alaska during the months of darkness ;)
You seem to believe the marketers who are telling you that driving a $60,000 vehicle or drinking a $5 cup of coffee is improving your life.
It isn't.
The things you consider civilization are the most worthless parts of it. Clean water is going to be worth much more in one hundred years than your rusted SUV. Clean air will be worth more than your house that was built out of cheap wood and sheetrock, which will likely be demolished sixty years after it was built. The ability to grow food will be worth more than the electronics that will end up in the rubbish pile.
Because of our lifestyle decisions, we are now unable to meet the needs of our own infrastructure. Maybe you like living at the end of the leash held by the world's oil companies and nationalized dictatorships, but I think it's incredibly short sighted.
You see, there was a time in this country when sacrifice and conservatism were noble. When we pulled together to get out of the Great Depression, and pulled together to retool our economy for WWII, and pulled together to provide right for all of our citizens in the 60s and 70s. The "gloom-and-doomers" are the people who see problems and deal with them rather than sticking their heads in the sand.
Yes, I own a car, which gets only 30mpg. But I live four miles from where I work, and I bike there four out of five days every week. I recycle what I can even though it costs me money. I try to spend my money with companies that are good stewards of the environment, so if I have children, I can look them in the eye and tell them that I have saved some real wealth for them: the right to clean water, clear air, and a food supply that doesn't give them cancer.
Maybe you live far away from your job and mass transit isn't an option. Perhaps you do need to use an eight cylinder engine everywhere you go. But if you're going to ignore the very real problems our society is facing, you need to realize that you are that shithead who shows up to party but never buys any booze and never helps clean up. You are a douche bag, and everyone knows it and hates you. If you can live with that, then good for you.
I live in CA as well and we average $40/mo. That's a 2,000 sq ft home, family of 4, with 5 computers and a home wood shop. With 2 kids, the 32" TV (CRT, no less) is on a hell of a lot of the time, too.
Install some CFLs and turn down the AC.
Yup, and that would be fine if we pretend that once solar is installed it is free to maintain. The most commonly ignored fact I see in the cost of solar installations is the fact that your second highest cost is the battery bank which will have to be replaced several times before he recoups his initial investment.
Eventually he will probably go in the green (no pun intended) with a bill that large initially. Whether his actual costs ever drop below what they would have been if he had simply taken the power conservation measures and new appliances that generally go with a solar installation is another matter.
The reason to go solar is NOT reduced cost. Solar is breakeven at best. The reason to go solar is independence from the grid, you'll have power in a disaster, and we are all going to die if we don't come up with a solution.
His initial investment was $40,000, he started with an annual electric cost of $4000. Even if it were free it would take 10 years to recoup the cost. Instead there is a monthly bill. But the big whammy is a significant chunk of that 40gs is for the batteries which have to be replaced periodically.
This is from ft.com
Solar power: Supply and demand tables start to turn
By Fiona Harvey, Environment Correspondent
Published on June 30 2008 00:33
Just as the future started to look bright for solar power, prospects for some solar manufacturers have dimmed. The reason? Overcapacity in the manufacture of components is likely to cause a sudden shake-up for an industry that has been used to demand for its products consistently outstripping supply.
Shortages of silicon, the core component of photovoltaic technology - the conversion of sunlight to electric current - have plagued the solar industry for several years, keeping component prices high and frustrating demand. This fueled a rise - some analysts say a bubble - in solar stocks.
But the situation is soon to be reversed, according to several analysts. Dean Cooper, at Ambrian in London, forecasts that worldwide production capacity for components will increase from about 3 giga watts last year to 15GW to 20GW of production in 2010, largely thanks to a massive expansion of capacity in China.
Lux Research predicts that a watershed will be reached next year, when supply will outstrip demand. New Energy Finance, another analyst, agrees.
This spells both good and bad news for the solar market. It will result in a large hike in revenues: Lux Research estimates these will reach $71bn in 2012, or about triple today's sales, as stifled demand in the market can be satisfied. Prices for solar components are likely to plunge from about $3.80 per watt today to about $1.40 per watt by 2010, according to Mr Cooper.
But profit margins will also drop correspondingly, and if subsidised markets for solar energy start to stutter - as they reach saturation or as governments turn their attention to other renewables more deserving of subsidy - then this could mean problems for the market.
Most analysts predict consolidation, with bigger operators snapping up the smaller. In particular, manufacturers from the US and Europe are expected to hunt for acquisitions among the growing number of small companies in China, but there may also be some traffic in the opposite direction.
Oversupply will certainly be good for consumers, however. For years, solar companies have talked of "grid parity" - the point at which generating energy from sunlight falls to the same price as generating it from fossil fuels - as being many years off. But now, thanks to a combination of high conventional energy prices and the increase in component supply, some are predicting grid parity by 2012, or sooner.
Solar companies are also looking to invest in newer technologies to increase their capacity, widen the applications of solar power from roof-fixed systems, and cut their manufacturing costs.
Photovoltaic technology has progressed markedly in recent years, with advances making the cells more efficient, cheaper, lighter and easier to manufacture.
Newer techniques have focused on wringing more power from each module while using less raw material. The most important advance has been to "thin-film" solar cells - so-called because they are made by applying a thin film of a material such as amorphous silicon, cadmium telluride or copper indium gallium selenide to a substrate, such as glass or ceramics.
These technical advances have meant that manufacturers can now make their products more efficient by between 0.5 per cent and 1 per cent a year, says Randall MacEwen, chief executive of Solar Integrated Technologies, a US-based solar specialist listed in the UK. "A lot of production capacity will come on with low-cost thin-film materials in 2009 and 2010," he says.
Further advances in solar materials are likely to include using polymer-based substances and more flexible substrates, and by honing techniques to allow them to be printed on to a flexible base. These will allow solar power to be applied to a much wider range of materials.
Some companies have already found ways to make their small solar panels at least pa
Instead of spending $36k on a solar array, why not take your $36k and spend it on planting trees.
I almost want to agree with you but for the whole expression of, "Jack of all trades and master of none." I would rather have a broad educational background that supports a variety of trades but be considered an expert in my specific field of study, business, or employment. I see what you're saying, I think, but I really *do* want to have a specialty even if that specialty is a generic field of knowledge.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Residential solar installations typically have no batteries, so there is no maintenance cost for batteries, nor replacement costs.
Just to expand a little on what you said, non-grid-tied systems with batteries do exist, but they're typically only used in remote rural areas, where the grid doesn't reach. You'd be insane to install one in any area where the grid is available.
Find free books.
rtfa... its not a battery bank system doofus.
Chuck
Yup, and the voting public seem to fall for it every single time. Either by not caring, or by caring yet not having the attention span to remember about it when they are in the polling booth.
Some have an even shorter attention and or memory span than that. It was government meddling that caused the health care problems to begin with. During WWII the US government passed price and wage control laws. Employers weren't allowed to offer employees more by law. However government saw how this harmed businesses so the let employers offer fringe benefits such as health insurance to their employees, and gave them tax breaks for doing it. Those tax breaks are still on the books so there is no free market in health care and insurance. If government gave those same tax breaks to people who bought their own insurance then you could have a freer market. If they wanted they could join a health care coop. Or buy private insurance. They'd be able to open a health savings account which they could then use to pay normal medical expenses while buying catastrophic coverage to pay catastrophic expenses like cancer.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I think some people are so deep into their cynicism about governmental incompetence that they rarely stop to check if their cynicism is borne out by the facts...
And some are so deeply enamored with government they don't stop to check why there is a problem with health care. The problem is because the government passed wage control laws during WWII, employers weren't allowed to pay employees more. However because this caused a problem for employers the government allowed them to offer fringe benefits such as health insurance, and gave them tax breaks for doing so. Now if the government allowed employers to pay employees more, without raising taxes, then people could buy insurance on their own instead of depending on employers for it. Competition would then drive prices down.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You may want to take a look at this paper about health care in France.
Thanks for the link. Now when someone says how good France's health care is I have a reliable source to point to that differs.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
2. Steal them at night to avoid electric shock.
Or toss a blanket over them if you simply must steal them in the daytime.
This assumes that they don't run 120 volts AC through the solar panels to "keep them warm".
Great article. Let me tell you a different, yet somehow possibly related story about how things may progress in the future. In Norway we have lots of hydroelectric power (power from water running downhill through turbines). Some years back our goverments finally figured out that it would be a good idea to open up the powergrid and markets so people could buy power from whoever they wanted, not just their local supplier. Worked great for a while. Unfortunately, at the same time the local suppliers were given a monopoly over their own grids, i.e. the lines carrying the power into your house.
Guess what happened next? The price of power remained low and but the transportation fee started rising significantly. Today a lot of people in Norway pay more for getting the power transported to their house than for the actual power itself, and the cost of transportation keeps increasing every year while the cost of the actual power remains low.
Something to think about when the power companies / grid owners really start worrying about not being able to generated their profits from the power itself.
if i worked 10 hours a week, id make 400 a month. this wouldnt even pay my rent. you sir are an idiot.
If you're doing a connected grid-offset system, then you don't need batteries.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I think some of the biggest problems with health care and utilities arise purely from the fact that they become a political hot potatoes and the currently democratic process both here & world wide (USA/UK/etc) is set up to favour the present not the future.
I agree, the biggest problem medicine and health care have has to do with politics.
John Howard was only finally voted out here after completely destroying our workplace laws costing many people their jobs and was also, in a manner of speaking, corrupt - he routinely lied to the voting public whilst lining the pockets of groups whose votes he needed.
My memory is bad and I may be wrong here but I thought one of the reasons John Howard lost was because he supported Bush's invasion of Iraq.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
If you *really* want to get the Home Solar market to take off, you can start by requiring the power companies to pay customers for the extra power they put back int othe grid:
1: Customer pay for solar panels and installation.
2: Customer generates electricity using private infrastructure and capital.
3: Customer generates excess power that is fed back into the grid, free of charge to power company.
4: Power comapny then turns around and sells power back to other customer for a profit.
Technically, taking something and not paying for it is theft, and selling something that has been stolen is also illegal. Since power companies are allowed to take a customer's surplus, and the customer cannot control how much extra power they generate, an the power comapanies are then allowed to sell the power at a profit (no generating costs) without paying the generators for their trouble, people for the most part feel cheated, and rather than allow themselves to be swindled by Big Electricity, they just don't bother. Plus, solar panels are pretty expensive for the average consumer, making the swindle even more painful.
Paying customers the maket price that they deserve and are entitled to would definitely lessen the sting of the initial solar panel investment.
I wonder if Home Solar generators could get around this by forming a private power-generation company (i.e. a "Home Business") and selling the excess to the Power Co.
If the power companies are stealing from you, level the playing field and steal from them until they pay you what you deserve: Put a magnet next to the meter.
Simple.....Cheap.....and Effective.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
So this guy was previously paying $11.34 / 3% which is about $375 per month for electricity? I mean, how can one seriously use so much power? My electrical bill (for 2 persons) is about EUR 40-50/month and that includes about 50% in taxes and other bullshit fees (yes yes, europe). So sure, we do not have (nor need) airconditioning here, which will save a lot of power. But still, I have several computers running most of the day, dish washer, washing machine, tumble dryer (those really use a lot of power), fridge, etc., all the usual appliances.
But a $375 electricity bill while you probably pay about half of what I pay per kWh? Wow...just wow.
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
What happens when the lineman makes the final connection and closes the gap? Under a normal situation where the power flows only one way, nothing, as the power's been cut off at the transformer upline. Once he's done and has moved to a safe distance, the power company turns the transformer back on and life continues. However, if my excess power is being fed back in to the grid, SURPRISE! The line is live the instant the final connection is made. The lineman gets a nasty (and likely fatal) shock.
This is why inverters have low voltage cutoffs. UL and IEEE have rules and standards to prevent inverters from islanding and harming repairmen. Many systems that intertie into the power grid require these cutoffs so that when the powerline drops to zero the inverter won't feed power to the lines. This has been worked out quite well already.
IEEE's Xplore has an article on this, "Virtual inductor-based islanding detection method for grid-connected power inverter of distributed power generation system" [only a summary].
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
> Not cost effective? He went from a $348 bill to a $11 bill..
$300 per month?! More immediately cost effective than a $40K investment would have been some simple energy efficiency measures.
My monthly UK electricity bill, in mid-winter, is a maximum of $33: just over a dollar per day, compared to Mr Case's 60 cents per day bill after his solar installation.
I don't yet have solar panels, or solar water heaters, or a wind turbine; just basic energy-efficient procedures.
all we have to do is pay humans to plant the seeds, nurture the plants until they're ready for harvest, pick them, and transport them to market.
All I have to do for a lot of my food is the first three. I already planted my garden and I work in it two, three, or more days a week. I've already harvested some some greens, those being green leaf lettuce, red leaf lettuce, and chard. Some of my tomatoes and tomatillos look good, as does the broccoli and cauliflower though I haven't seen any peppers or squash yet.
Energy is a tax at every level of the food-enterprise, and eliminating the energy tax would allow farmers and the other people in the food chain to collect most of the money that gets spent therein.
In the US congress passed a farm bill that gives $307 billion in farm subsidies. And enough congress critters voted for it to survive a presidential veto.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
No outlay.
This is just the level of ignorance politicians want you to have. Its how the income tax works so well. The people have been guided into thinking about their "take home pay". Never about what they make, in fact if you ask most people what they make you usually get take home.
Oh it costs ya a lot. If you bother to read any of the papers available about health care systems across the world it would open your eyes. This is another of those fantasy pitches where if its repeated enough times people will start to accept it. The problem is the biggest implementers of universal health care are stepping back because the costs are obscene and they are finding that when something is free or nearly free in appearance people tend to abuse it.
ZERO OUTLAY... damn, next your going to believe that the roads are free too.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
His stance that global warming was 'nonsense' didn't really help him much either. He was also refusing to sign the Kyoto agreement in a time when the average Australia was becoming environmentally conscious and learning all about what damage the support systems to our lifestyles are doing to our planet.
That's something I don't get. From what I'll seen of maps of weather patterns because of Global Warming Australia would be hit hard by drought and isn't it suffering from bad droughts now, especially around Sidney? I once read where a battle was brewing over water, that both farmers and cities needed it but there wasn't enough for both.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You've posted that twice, but both times failed to mention one important thing: What happened to that $120,000 bill? Did it get written off by the hospital? Did someone pay it for you? Are you still paying it back now?
The medical bills were paid. The employer of the driver who hit me decided to settle a lawsuit, while I was in the coma my family decided to hire an attorney. So the bills were paid out of the settlement, however I don't have any receipts from the payments and there are entries on my credit reports saying some bills haven't been paid. However, because of the permanent disability I have, a Traumatic Brain Injury or TBI I am also on disability. So I collect Social Security Income, SSI. Even though I paid into it while I worked, I hate that I need it, being "on the public dole". I can't make my own way sort of thing. My sister told me after I came out of the coma I was screaming at everyone to let me die, and I wish I had.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Since you show no data, I am thinking that you are sayings things only to support your opinion..
PV panel manufacture charge money to cover all of their costs, so that leaves disposal,
and for that we can just throw it in the ocean.
Too right. Specialisation is for insects.
Is this a rhetorical question?
Since most people on solar are trying to live on far less energy than a human needs to be comfortable in order to utilize technology that simply isn't cost effective yet
Don't you mean far less energy than YOU need to live comfortably? In Florida, one of the biggest uses of energy is for AC and while I admit I like it cool indoors my last year living there I didn't have the AC turned on at all, and I moved away in August. I didn't even turn the heat on during the winter until a friend pointed out spores and other allergens could built up in the ducts, then I turned it on low. With proper insulation and sealing places that may leak little AC or heat is needed to keep the indoors comfortable.
On the other hand, unlike the northern states, power usage in these places is also reduced. In warm climate areas you stay inside in the summer to avoid the weather rather than the winter.
When not in school I preferred to be at Cocoa Beach, near Ron Jon's, there, scuba diving, or working in my garden.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
should they really be considered disabled?
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
But the big whammy is a significant chunk of that 40gs is for the batteries which have to be replaced periodically.
Batteries? Where did he say he got batteries? I must have missed it. Doing an intertie system like he did there is no need for batteries. You only need them if you're Off The Grid. And while batteries have among to shortest warranties you can get some with 7 year warranties like Surrette batteries, 2 years full and 5 prorated. As this site says "Batteries are expensive" but only need to be replace every 7 to 10 years.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yup, and that would be fine if we pretend that once solar is installed it is free to maintain. The most commonly ignored fact I see in the cost of solar installations is the fact that your second highest cost is the battery bank which will have to be replaced several times before he recoups his initial investment.
And where does he say he's using batteries?
Whether his actual costs ever drop below what they would have been if he had simply taken the power conservation measures and new appliances that generally go with a solar installation is another matter.
Ah, you pointed out something this guy should have done first, the first thing you do is take energy efficiency measures. You're the first person I've seen say that.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The rates shouldn't be the same.
The power fed back into the grid during peak load times (i.e. daytime) should be at a higher rate than the usage drawn during the night (base load time).
Peak generation is much, much more expensive than base load generation, IIRC.
I live in Kansas and for the last month have used 1188 kWH which cost me about $120 ( with taxes and fees our summer rate is 10 cents / kWH ).
This is down 30% from last year as I replaced a 10 SEER heat pump w/14.5 and a 80% furnace with a 96% direct vent furnace and tankless water heater.
I have 2 school aged children and parents work outside of house.
We have one HDTV that I unplug at night and a couple of laptops and 2 desktops that I shut off while not in use.
Surprisingly due to our heat pump I actually use more electricity in winter than in summer - will have to figure out at what temperature gas is more price effective than electricity as the winter price is about 6 cents /kWH
I have added attic insulation and am thinking of residing w/foam too. Most every light is CFL and refrigerator/dishwasher/dryer are new energy star. Freezer is old.
I am not sure what you and and girlfriend are doing for just your 400 kWH but out here the author ain`t doing so bad.
I have looked at panels too but we don't have net metering so that "spare" daytime power would go nowhere and reduce my rates 0%. Hard to pay back $50K that way.
But go look at the recent increases in coal costs- ... power _is_ going to cost more.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/coalnews/coalmar.html .
I bet in a few years the original authors investment will be looked with even more envy.
Hint, Hint, Hint
If I could reduce my power draw from the grid beyond just turning off stuff ( and other ways too but it makes it simpler to just pretend that I have minimized usage ) and I could pay more to help ensure that new power plants don't need to get built --- I would.
Would I pay 25% more in electrical costs if it meant I was reducing grid demands.
Sure, absolutely.
There are costs associated with producing power that don't have a direct line item on my bill. .... where do those show up on my bill right now ?
Damming water sources, strip mining coal, transporting and storing nuclear waste, CO2 and other emissions from coal plants
So if I could reduce my bill ... and others as well .... I would consider that to have some pay backs that do not directly save me money. But they sure will save my children.
I'd say in most(!) cases a specialist makes less money than their nonspecialist manager. However, my real considered opinion is that so much energy is wasted in every life that jack of all tradesing it is always a better spend of time than at least one in five of your friends, so why even bother justifying it. on the whole it helps (slightly) with a goal you find important, and whilst you could spend your off time catching up on your day job as an accountant and working towards 100% efficiency, your buddy who spends all day playing wow and getting stoned is fucking up your averages.
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
I'm moving to the sticks with a bow & arrow.
Don't forget your solar panels and wind generator
All joking aside, if it wasn't for the abysmal access to broadband network access in rural, much less remote areas of the United States, I'd be all for self sufficiency.
I've lived on 8 acres, not huge, but nice hobby farm type in the rural midwest, and the cost to bring reliable high speed access to that property was several hundred a month for a 256k frame connection into my network, so naturally no transit fees. This was in 1995, and 13 years later it is still the same there, and most other rural locations I would bet.
Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
Having worked on my uncle's farm growing up, I would contend that chickens actually make very shitty pets. They're generally stupid, moody, and crap indiscriminately on everything. They attract predators and parasites, and they get dander and feathers on everything. And even rabbits have more affectionate personalities (at least rabbits basically just sit there when you pet them).
You're better off with a parrot (at least they can talk).
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Yea, that's what happened in Bolivia, in the city of Cochabamba. Despite a lot of gas previous governments mismanaged money and the country had to get a bailout from the IMF, International Monetary Fund or WB, World Bank. One of the conditions of the aid was that Bolivia had to privatize some things. One of those privatized was Cochabamba's water system, it was sold to Bechtel, one of the US's largest American water companies. As soon as Bechtel took over they more than doubled the price of water and the people couldn't afford it. So they took to the streets and protested, several people were shot during the demonstrations. But eventually the sale was canceled.
Queen Noor of Jordan once said the only reason Jordan would go to war with Israel was over water. And Israel diverts so much water from the River Jordan, which forms the border between the two countries, that the Dead Sea does not get enough water and is draining. This harms those who live down stream, both Jordanians and Israelis but the Bedouins in Israel bare the brunt.
Stuff like this is happening all over the world, in both Colombia and India Coca Cola has pumped so much water from wells farmers wells are running dry. In the US the Colorado River, which carved the Grand Canyon, used to empty into the Sea of Cortez but it no longer reaches the sea. Mexico also has rights to the water by treaty but they hardly ever get any. Desert cities like Los Vega and farmers now claim every drop of water. The Rio Grande River, which separates Texas from Mexico, used to empty into the Gulf of Mexico. But now about all that makes it is a trickle of water at tymes. Meanwhile, in Oregon there was some fighting over water from the Klamath River. It's all dammed up, for hydroelectric power plants and for farmers. However people, and salmon, down river haven't been getting enough water. Several years ago there was a massive kill of salmon because there wasn't enough water.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There's one or two 'high' profile law differences between California and the Fed already.... why couldn't cali do what they want anyhow?
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
The baseline rate in March was 0.15566 cents per Kwh, and the baseline quantity was 390.6 Kwh. The next 30% beyond baseline gets charged at $0.13 per Kwh.
That's a hell of a price increase!
What the heck kind of servers does he have? I can get a 3.0GHz quad-core, 8G of memory and 2T of storage in Kill-A-Watt) at full load (all 4 cores running at 100%) for about $2500. Wouldn't replacing his hardware with something energy efficient have been far more cost effective?
My neighbor just installed 22 solar panels, he says they will pay off in 7 years, but I don't see how it makes sense, except for government subsidies.
He says half the cost was just in the installation, then some percentage of the remainder is the brackets, wiring etc., and finally the solar panels themselves. Compare this to a massive installation.
There is only 7% transmission line loss, and I would imagine a solar installation of scale would cost 1/5th per kwh of what my neighbor did, plus they can store heat for use over the night.
So how does this make sense? It turns out he is getting 25% back from the federal govt., and PG&E pays him .36cents per KWH he feeds back into the grid. That's an insane amount of money. He gets to use the grid as a battery, and gets the consumer cost of .36c for the privilege.
The whole thing is silly, IMO. It just jacks up others rates by making a phony market.
Ed Barbar, President and General Manager, Furnit USA
I don't know about the usual batteries, but I made a plan for an off-grid house(Just a curiosity, I was bored one day), and it used forklift batteries. These batteries have lifespans of 10-20 years with proper maintenance (distilled water every so often, not running them too far), so they'll be extremely green compared to the majority of batteries with a tenth of the life, and at such a huge amount of time, they'll be greener than pretty much any non-renewable energy source. Also, the batteries can be recycled, so manufacturing waste can be minimized.
The one major downside is cost. I was planning so I could run the household on battery power for a full 24 hours full consumption in the winter months in case the wind generator broke and the solar panels were recieving no sunlight at all, and it was easily $30,000 for enough batteries to run that long.
It's been a long time.
I'm sorry about your misfortune, but of course you were treated. Doctors and Hospitals are legally obligated to treat you in such situations, regardless of insurance.
Basically that was my point, though I didn't have insurance and couldn't afford it I got treatment.
Not much about your situation is lucky, but it is lucky you were able to sue and get a settlement. Imagine if you couldn't and were stuck with a $120,000 bill? Unfortunately that is the reality for many people.
I believe there should be a way to help those who can't afford it, and are not at fault, but I don't believe medicine should be socialized. Instead I believe a free market in health care, and we do not have one, would go a long way to providing medical care to most people. By allowing walk in clinics to be readily opened, ie get rid of a lot of the regulations that keep them from being opened, more could then be opened in neighborhoods where they are needed. Some people are joining with others to form health care coops like Group Health Coop. The increase in primary care would then decrease the number of emergency room visits, and those visits are expensive and the cost is passed on the everyone else. Then for those who still can't get health insurance there could be a safety net. Say require insurance policy issuers to pay into a fund which then covers these people. When I last had health insurance, I don't have coverage now but am waiting for some, I was denied insurance with a private provider. However where I live they require policy issuers to pay into such a fund and because I was denied coverage I was able to get some through the fund.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I would actually not recommend solar panels like the OP used, but rather look into solar-thermal generators.
Solar panels are only 15-18% efficient, and stationary ones only achieve peak output at high noon, so you need to cover most of your roof with them.
There are solar-thermal plans with a collector less than 6' in diameter (looks like a satellite dish) that follows the sun for peak output whenever the sun is out. They're more like 60% efficient, replacing 12x the area in solar panels. One 6' generator should put out 1500W, enough to power the typical household, and more can be added to power electric cars for example.
If everyone had one for their home and replaced their cars with electric cars and matching generators, greenhouse gas emissions would drop by 73%. If they were ever to be mass produced, the retail price should settle under $1000, even lower if they were subsidized. That is the most realistic solution to global warming I've seen.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Good old square wave AC...
Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
Following on a recent discussion of "doe snot" in New Scientist, I noticed "bill shave" in the article, passes spell check, but is still the wrong word. OK, so I need to get a life. Please tell me something I don't know.
I like the idea of solar power, but the economics (and weather, in this part of the world) aren't quite compelling enough. Yet.
...laura
In some cases it makes sense to have a battery bank. As mentioned earlier, if you have a power failure the inverter must disconnect from the grid to protect linemen. Without batteries, this means that you basically don't use any power from your panels.
Now, some grid-tie capable inverters can also work with batteries. In this case you can still run some loads off of battery power during a blackout. Yes, you lose some power as the batteries have some internal resistance, but in normal use this won't be very much as they will stay charged a lot of the time and excess power will "float" over them and into the grid.
Then again, most places have reliable utility power, so in a lot of cases it probably isn't worth it, given the cost and complexity it adds.
Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
Or tie them into the electrical system so they can provide power to the system. Oh, wait.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
The transformer would work as a low pass filter, so in theory the output would be "less square" than the input.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Nice bit of info to pass on...Just be nice when ALL the states let you sell back to the "grid"
Joe Investor
Don't forget that led-acid batteries can be recycled.
Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
Also, the batteries can be recycled, so manufacturing waste can be minimized.
Don't forget that led-acid batteries can be recycled.
Oh, I almost forgot, did you know that the batteries can be recycled?
It's been a long time.
I would rather have a broad educational background that supports a variety of trades but be considered an expert in my specific field of study, business, or employment.
Like a Fighter/Cleric/Thief, at levels 7/3/3 respectively.....
It pissed me off that every time this subject comes up the only possible topic to discuss is ROI. How come no one ever demands an explanation for investment in a home theater system or an SUV? Why can't someone do it just to help the environment? Or to help pioneer the technology and get the wheels rolling so it becomes more feasible in the future? In my mind one of the reasons that the US is beginning to lag behind other countries is because we are becoming a lowest common denominator/instant gratification society. I realize the article is about this topic, but the piling on about solar never paying for itself is slanted in a way that reads to me that the money would be better spent on cheap calories at Micky D's, (calories/$) and something big to park in your driveway to be admired (the american dream, plus the administration wants you to spend to stimulate the economy so you are being a patriot too). Regards, Jack
Agreed. My undergraduate mentor was fond of saying: "Know everything about something, and something about everything."
My neighbor put 28 south-facing panels (5kw) on her $600k tract house in OC last year.
While I do not have a solar array on my roof, I do have a tankless water heater. I replaced my traditional 40-gallon gas heater last year, and so far I've been pretty happy. My gas bill went down about $20/month at that savings rate, it will take me 125 months to recover the purchase and installation costs.
Needless to say, I did not switch to tankless for cost reasons. Unlimited hot water, and more free space in my basement were the primary concerns. The "green" part is also nice.
Similar reasons may justify the purchase of a solar array - finances are not one of them (yet).
-ted
You shouldn't just throw Cadmium Telluride into the ocean. Because one day it will return to you in the fish meat.
You have a tree problem.
You have to wash ashes from your panels already.
There *are* already fires in the area.
See where this is heading?
Do it.
I'd say in most(!) cases a specialist makes less money than their nonspecialist manager.
Yes, but being a manager is a specialization in itself (although it may be based on another specialization, such as being a software development manager.
Cite? The price data I can find disagrees with your claim.
Take oil as an example. The price of WTI was about $15-20/bbl in the late 80s, spiked up to $36/bbl in Oct 1990, and then fell back to $20 by the end of 1991, which is where it stayed until the end of the decade.
Half of these problems and many others all stem back to history were we allowed corporations to have the same rights as a person. If we still limited them to their charter like in the 1800s I think a lot of these problems wouldn't occurr. You'd also have no problem of people hiding behind the corporate veil.
I often wonder if we're simply heading towards the collapse of our lifestyle - we've designed the monetary system so that it will collapse once debt levels plateau leaving not enough money in existence to pay back all the debt created. We're giving corporations the right to starve us off our own land. We've given our governments the power to instil fear in us, as opposed to them fearing the people.
Heck, Australian's were nearly banned from protesting period when the pope was here. A law was passed banning being "annoying" literally. If you "annoyed" someone you could be arrested. Thankfully it was challenged and struck out but it was still illegal to "inconvienence" a pilgrim!
Two Parts Swash, One Part Buckle
I could be missing something, but it sounds to me like you're pretty much fucked.
My life is a living HELL!
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Over time, they degrade. I've heard something in-and-around the 20 year range.
Of course depending on the manufacturer and model panels have warranties of 20, 25 years. If your payback period is 14 years, which is pretty typical though for some it's 7 and others it's 20 years, you basically get free energy for 6 years.
That's about as long as most mortgages
According to this, Mortgage and Finance Tips, the traditional mortgage length for first tyme buyers is 30 years. I didn't see an average for previous owners.
it's reasonable to expect that people will start actually paying off their loans and owning a house rather than just upgrading every few years.
Since it's best to think of solar and other energy systems for the long term this, buying and holding instead of flipping, actually can help.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
the real crime in the US healthcare system is the price gouging that the uninsured experience.
We have high-deductible insurance, which effectively means that we pay for all of our own healthcare. Despite that, we pay less than the uninsured because we pay for medical services at the discounted insurance rate.
Actually no, because the uninsured still receive treatment even if they don't pay, the cost is passed onto those who do pay. When hospitals and doctors don't get paid they raise the cost for those who do pay.
To me, this also shows how little it actually costs to make the system more efficient.
Yea, require insurance policy issuers to pay into a fund that covers those who can't afford insurance. They, and policy holders, are already paying this only formalizes it.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
i suddenly remembered, something those of you from elsewhere may not know, that a lot of the lighthouses up here in the new englands are nowadays automatic, solar powered. and i would imagine their operation is pretty much required to be reliable, every night. and the amount of power delivered is not trivial, i would guess.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
First, a decade is little more than a spot in time - even in one human lifetime.
Even so, I wouldn't keep you from your nicely implemented private electric (never been to Australia before and don't know anyone from there so you get the benefit of the doubt), but you're in a country the size of the US with a population around the size of Florida's. Hardly comparable I'd say.
This is such a typically American attitude. Whenever someone from another country offers their experience of how things work in their country, the American invariably points out the differences between the two countries as if that makes the experience irrelevant. Americans have the biggest victim complex. Everything in America is *sooo* much harder than it is where you're from, you couldn't possibly understand...
No one is claiming other countries are carbon copies of America in every detail, but it's pretty sad how you pull out those two statistics as an excuse to brush off what he said. Tell me, what part of low population density makes electricity production and distribution easier?
If i hear "we need a uniquely American solution to X" one more time, i'm going to be sick. It invariably means ignoring the 30+ other relevant examples of solutions to X. No problem has ever been faced until it has been faced by the mighty Americans.
If we still limited them to their charter like in the 1800s I think a lot of these problems wouldn't occurr.
Thomas Jefferson foresaw this, he believed corporations would become powerful. And they have.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The price this guy is paying for electricity is awfully high. Are all Americans gouged like this? I only pay 9 cents Canadian per kWh, and that's a flat rate.
California, where this guy lives, has one of the highest energy costs in the US. I pay 11 cents where I live and my bill comes to less than $30, sometimes less than $20, a month.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
" If a solar panel has less than a 25 year warranty or uses thin film in any way, shape or form, or has a negative tolerance rating of 6% or more, you won't find it on our website !"
You've got to factor in the price of complete replacecement. Hell, lets say he gets really lucky and they last 10 years..
HAHA! Twenty years if he's unlucky.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Heck, I was just considering what would happen if you took a straight electric dryer and instead of just exhausting the hot air outside if you used a heatpump (think dehumidifier or window size AC unit) to move that heat(very efficiently) to the incoming air before using direct electric heat to warm it up. You'd probably need to add a line to a drain, and a pump to empty out the condensate, but most dryers are located next to washing machines, and they have a drain.
I read an article where the author describes doing this. Normally the dryer vents outdoors but during the winter he has it vent indoors. He put a nylon stocking on the end of the hose to catch the fuss from the clothes being dried. The dryer is in the basement as since heat rises it helps heat the house. Another way to do it is to have the air vent through a heat exchanger, the warm air is used to heat incoming air.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yes and no. As far as investments go yes, solar isn't exactly world leading, but it's not as bad as you're making out. Firstly most basic residential solar installations don't have batteries, but instead feed excess straight into the grid during a sunny day and take power from the grid when needed at other times. So battery upkeep costs are a red-herring.
Of course the problems with this standard setup are that you don't get the side-benefit of blackout protection (unless the blackout coincides with a nice sunny day) and it doesn't modify the baseload requirements of your home that much. But it's better than nothing, and with a sensibly sized, reasonably energy efficient home and a few trivial precautions (like unplugging appliances that you're not using) and you can reach the break-even point quite easily. Or even make a nice little profit if you're not stuck in a country where the suppliers won't let you sell more energy back to the grid than you take out (speaking from experience here).
You are going to have to come to terms with being frugile with power in almost action you take from there on in.
I think that many, many people today could benefit from a bit of frugality. But then I've grown very, very tired recently of comfortably well off people living in relative luxury who scream blue murder everytime something happens that might threaten their ability to afford yet more unnecessary "stuff" that they imagine they absolutely must have. Who knows: maybe a bit of frugal living might reset their priorities to something more sensible?
And I like the fact that I'm riding higher and can see around me better, which actually increases my safety margin for everyone else, at least from the standpoint of being able to see.
You riding high does not make it safer for others. Like the GP said when I drive, a 2000 Saturn that gets 30 mpg that I bought new but have not put 45,000 miles on yet, I try to watch the traffic in front of me. By looking through their windshield and by looking on their side. However wide vehicles, whether a SUV or not, and high passenger seats makes it difficult if not impossible to see how the traffic is ahead of me.
Cars are incredibly dangerous, and you have to treat them that way.
Especially when the idiot driver is not paying attention to traffic while talking on the cellphone.
smaller cars are more dangerous for motorcycles in a collision (and you can certainly see around motorcycles easier than a car). Should we frown on everyone who doesn't drive a motorcycle? And it's not fair that motorcycles are heavier than bicycles.
The past few weeks I've been seriously thinking about getting a motorcycle. I'd use it for getting from place to place and use the car when I go shopping. I don't know if I could afford the insurance though.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
"It seems to me that could change rather dramatically if the price of electricity goes up. I wonder what effect his solar array will have if he buys an electric car that can be plugged in."
Unless he works from home (in which case a Hybrid is a very poor choice if the goal is saving money, and merely a poor choice otherwise), the car would be charging at night or in the evening. During these times, solar is zero to marginal, and thus not likely to be "powering" a hybrid, or even a full-electric plug-in.
Also, the cost of maintenance of the solar arrays could go up, not to mention the efficacy of them could go down due to global warming (higher and thicker cloud cover leading to less solar energy reaching the surface), or if someone puts a big building up near him, or bamboo or trees grow into the path, etc., or if a defect in the wiring or installation leads to his house burning down.
About every month I look into solar for my house. And every month I let myself wish it would be cost effective, even though I know it won't be. At least, not for electricity. Now water/home heating, absolutely.
And every time I run through the numbers, solar is a poor investment for someone on the grid.
Ultimately the problem lies with centralized power production and control as the only "allowable" source. Distribution of power generation is more efficient in terms of power delivery, more reliable in the "national security sense" and safer in the health sense in that you can keep the AC, fridge, and freezer on during daytime blackouts.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
All joking aside, if it wasn't for the abysmal access to broadband network access in rural, much less remote areas of the United States, I'd be all for self sufficiency.
I've lived on 8 acres, not huge, but nice hobby farm type in the rural midwest, and the cost to bring reliable high speed access to that property was several hundred a month for a 256k frame connection into my network, so naturally no transit fees. This was in 1995, and 13 years later it is still the same there, and most other rural locations I would bet.
My parents are in a similar situation and use wild blue. I believe they have the 12GB 30-day download limit/FAP. They're pretty happy with it because it beats dial up, and we [children] are happy with it because we can VNC in whenever we want and keep their computers running smoothly.
SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
The comments to this article contain the '%' sign 114 times. Yes, I'm bored.
True, but I still wouldn't want to run anything sensitive on it.
Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
I own a commercial building that i installed a 10kW system last year from an online direct retailer and it only cost me ~$50k. I just looked up what a 6kW system from the same people for a residential system costs and its around $32k without rebates. just seems to me like he grossly overpaid for his system.
http://www.solarexpert.com/pvbasics2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell
12 percent efficiency isn't very high, and cells are expensive.
What other data would you like to see? Seriously. How comprehensive do you want on slashdot?
Solar is good for isolated installations where grid power isn't going to be able to get to. It isn't mass production ready.
No I'm not an expert but I have talked with people who are.
Wind is far cheaper and more efficient. Still with solar and wind storage potential and efficiency also comes into play. Until that is improved a nuclear backbone or some CO2 backbone supply will be necessary as hydro power is fairly well tapped. That is unless people get hot-rock geothermal going which has yet to be tried.
Your question reads a bit off to me. I'm assuming you're asking about commercial(IE not government) power companies built nuclear plants? Of course, 'build their own' - of course not, they generally contract construction for that sort of stuff out. Doesn't matter whether it's a nuclear plant, coal, dam, solar, etc...
Also, there's normally a certain amount of shell gaming going on, and over the 40+ year lifespan of a plant, ownership will normally change hands.
Thus my point - when a plant opens, there are certain fees within the cost of the electricity - such as the federally mandated fee for disposal of the waste, and a fee to go to an account to pay for the eventual decommisioning of the plant. Other than that, a new plant would pay for itself on the basis of electricity sold on market on the remainder. Right not payback is estimated at 3-10 years, depending upon actual construction costs and interest rates.
Still...
There's Joseph M. Farley, Southern Nuclear Operating Company in Alabama. I won't count Browns Ferry, as it's owned by TVA, a federally owned company.
Diablo Canyon - Pacific Gas & Electric.
San Onofre - 'Various Owners'
Millstone - Dominion Resources, Inc.
Now that I've put far more time into this, and only gotten up to Connecticut, the rest is up to you.
Right now we've had a plant reactivation last year, and are looking at a number of new reactors installed on existing plant sites.
I don't read AC A human right