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I can understand that you hate ads taking space and processing-time, but have you ever developed an APPLICATION using Flash? For me it's the language (ActionScript 2.0) and the player. Thats basically what flash is. With the Flash 8 player you can do some really cool things with actionscript. Check it out before you just "hate everything flash". Also, I would like to point you to http://www.osflash.org/ for all your opensource Flash-needs. Flash / SWF / ActionScript isn't just a way to create ads. You can create whole applications with it... when there is an appropriate use for it of course. Making stupid banners and ads with Flash is just a very small part of Flash, though many use Flash to do it. Do you hate gifs, jpegs and pngs too? They dont have as many other uses, besides banners and ads, as Flash do.

The component-architecture by Macromedia admittedly sucks badly, but open source projects are worked on as I write this, to change all that. You can now use Eclipse as a development environment for Flash, though I prefer either TextMate or XCode for my development needs. Especially Xcode, since I do alot of Cocoa/Objective-C development as well.

You should check out ActionStep, which is a framework modeled after NextStep/Cocoa, for Flash. It's opensource, nearly at 1.0, and looking quite good. There is the open source compiler mtasc, which supports all the latest things of the Flash 8 Player, is faster than Macromedias own, does better type checking and works from the commandline on most OSes. Being a commandline compiler, means it can easily be integrated with your favorite editor / IDE. Do read up on these things before you call it a nuisance and ad-thingie. Thank you very much.

Flash(swf) is an open format. Go here for the specs: http://www.macromedia.com/licensing/developer/

And yes, you can create flash movies(swfs) without a license from macromedia. You just need to know how :-)

Check http://osflash.org/open_source_flash_projects for details about Open Source Flash projects.

Flash is just a tool. You'll find that anyone building a serious application will not design anything "Flashy" in Flash. These applications are the ones you're most likely to *have* to use (and maybe even want to use?).

The other, effects-laden pages are not important and thus easily ignored.

I know hating Flash is the popular opinion to have right now but developers are working hard to make it better. Open-source frameworks are becoming more popular (including the application framework based on Cocoa to which I contribute, ActionStep) that are compatible with the open-source compiler, MTASC. There is nothing flashy about this Framework, and it has been seen to be faster than Macromedia's framework.

Give Flash a chance. If you're using the right tools, you might find it to be an enjoyable experience that creates a good product.

Sorry for the OT rant.

hey tepples - i know you from gbadev/dsdev

i am personally a flash developer (though not games, we do applications).

If you don't mid doing everything through code, without the nice macromedia gui, there is a free, opensource flash compiler:

http://mtasc.org/

Check osflash.org for some nice tutorials on getting the compiler set up (as well as other useful tools). They show you how to use Eclipse, but personally I'm not a big fan of it.

http://osflash.org/doku.php?id=tutorials

Flash 8 has gone into beta, and will be released in a couple weeks...But with mtasc, you can already compile flash apps that use the new features! (A few new features: realtime effects like blur, shadow, convolve, displacement. Pixel-level control of bitmap data.)

Info on flash 8: http://osflash.org/doku.php?id=flashcoders:undocum ented:flash8

Some random things I have written for flash: http://rorexrobots.com/flash

ActionScript (the language of the flash player) is fully OOP, with classes, inheritance, interfaces, and error throwing/catching. It is similar to java, in that it is compiled into bytecode which is run by the Flash VM. In fact, if you wanted to, you could write code that looks a lot like java.

hey tepples - i know you from gbadev/dsdev

i am personally a flash developer (though not games, we do applications).

If you don't mid doing everything through code, without the nice macromedia gui, there is a free, opensource flash compiler:

http://mtasc.org/

Check osflash.org for some nice tutorials on getting the compiler set up (as well as other useful tools). They show you how to use Eclipse, but personally I'm not a big fan of it.

http://osflash.org/doku.php?id=tutorials

Flash 8 has gone into beta, and will be released in a couple weeks...But with mtasc, you can already compile flash apps that use the new features! (A few new features: realtime effects like blur, shadow, convolve, displacement. Pixel-level control of bitmap data.)

Info on flash 8: http://osflash.org/doku.php?id=flashcoders:undocum ented:flash8

Some random things I have written for flash: http://rorexrobots.com/flash

ActionScript (the language of the flash player) is fully OOP, with classes, inheritance, interfaces, and error throwing/catching. It is similar to java, in that it is compiled into bytecode which is run by the Flash VM. In fact, if you wanted to, you could write code that looks a lot like java.

Wow, you sure have a passion in hating Flash.

First of all, the article is, in typical slashdot manner, not just misleading, but plain wrong. Laptops are PCs, not embedded devices, so you're not prohibited in using Flash on them. You may dislike MM, but they are not stupid (unlike a part of the crowd)

Second, Flash does not suck resources unless there's heavy animation involved. It certainly doesn't use huge amounts of RAM.

Third, the parent poster uses the lowest form of FUD: he's lying. By default, a flash movie does NOT have access to microphone or webcam - you have to explicitly enable this, and this is a per-site setting. I won't even discuss the cookie nonsense.

Fourth, it's proprietary, because MM wants to stay in control, but the specs are readily available, as is the source code of the player.
There is nothing to stop you from making your own Flash content generator or player. Have a look at OSFlash.org for a list of Flash-related Open Source projects.

Finally, whether you like it or not, Flash is the best way to create modern web applications, a lot easier than AJAX, more widespread than XUL.

As to SVG standard, read and weep: SVG Rendering Comparison. Also, have you seen Adobe's SVG plugin for example? It makes Acrobat look small and snappy in comparison. It will take at least 5 more years until you'll be able to use SVG across browsers and platforms.

And, come on, this is Slashdot, you may hate flash, but can you resist the girls of Virtual Bartender? :-) Cheers!

Sure.

http://www.osflash.org/

The Flash/Javascript Integration Kit (originally developed by Macromedia with an open license, now hosted on Open Source Flash) works with these Mac browsers ( Macintosh Opera 8.0, Macintosh Firefox 1.0, Safari 1.2.4 and 2.0 ) - if you're having problems with Flash and browser communication check it out. There are supposed to be better methods in the next version of Flash (which is out in a few weeks), but this works now.

This is so going on my nerves I can't tell anyone.
Once again:
As long as JavaScript doesn't behave predictable across Browser DOMs just as CSS has learned by now to behave 95% predictable across plattforms and browsers this whole AJAX thing is NOTHING BUT F*CKING POINTLESS!
The concept of rich clients (what Ajax is all about) in ancient! The only thing that lacks is a cross plattform enviroment that people are willing to use by default in favour of dumb clients.
We've got Java (to difficult for most people - especially for those getting high on Ajax just now), Flash/ActionScript (good but reputation spoiled by same people) and XUL (Firefox/Mozilla only - xulrunner still in the works) but tres cool and a real GUI kit.

So, if you think rich clients are cool, build them in XUL. That's ten bazillion miles ahead of Ajax.

Ajax is nothing but, and I mean absolutely nothing but a marketing hype scheme started by these people. So would you please just ignore it. There are a lot of other much more mature technologies for this that would actually deseve the attention. I mentioned XUL allready, but those countless open source Flash/AS projects out there are also worth a look.

SVG has to compete with semantically void images.

No. SVG has to compete with Flash. And the widespread adoption of Flash by both the commercial and open source (e.g., OSFlash, OpenLaszlo etc.) communities was caused by the fact that Flash is a good platform to develop for, and has a consistent and ubiqutous Flash Player. It has nothing to do with semantics (and it never will) or scaling or anything else. No sane company would target a platform that doesn't even have good viewer. Very few developers will go through the pains of building a serious SVG application if nobody can use it.

Well ... we went through those pains, and probably will do so even more in the future. But we are doing this only with the hope that, one day, people will also be able to easily use our applications.

Yup, I know, the Flash player isn't open source. But there's an open source compiler, MTASC (*), and with ActionStep, there's a rapidly growing (BSD licensed!) open source component library.

All sorts of nifty open source things are happening with Flash these days; you can track that sort of thing on OSFlash.

(*) Written in Ocaml, how cool is that? (**)
(**) Very.

You should check out ActionStep. It's an opensource ActionScript 2.0 implementation of Apple's AppKit.

ActionStep on OSFlash

I think Macromedia has taken a cue from the OSFlash guys who have been using Eclipse and a bunch of other open-source tools to create Flash content for a while.

This 'Zorn' solution seem to be specific to Flex, which is a corporate, expensive, high-end server-side solution. For general Flash development - one without a large budget - the FAME/FAMES/FLAMES solution on the OSFlash site seem to be working really well for some people.

Maybe you can't create Flash content on Linux, but that's what I do. And I'm not talking about Laszlo.
My current workflow is this: I describe my SWF in XML and include all assets I'm going to use. An Open Source compiler adds the code I've written in Eclipse after the SWF has been assembled and the Ant build then launches Firefox with it. The next version of an Eclipse plugin that allows for viewing the SWF inside Eclipse has been announced, and it will support Linux, too (sorry, the latter is only free-as-in-beer).
Have a look here.

So far, Macromedia has been quite supportive of the community, they seem to understand it's for the benefit of all.

As far as the Shockwave plugin is concerned... personally, I don't miss it.

Good, you found MTASC already. It was a huge boost to the OS Flash community, and there now is a wiki where you will find everything you need.
No, there is no GUI, if that's what you're looking for. You will have to use XML to describe your SWF. But there is an Eclipse plugin, and MTASC integrates nicely with it. Currently, what would be needed is a good SVG to SWF converter for the graphics, but I'm sure this could be done. You can already create an SWF with TTF fonts, PNGs, JPEGs and existing SWFs in it if you're not scared of XML. In theory, you could even draw vector graphics in XML and have them converted, but this would be at a very low level. If you're now thinking that SVG is vectors in XML, so an XSLT transform could take care of that, you're mostly right if it wasn't for the CSS in SVG.

As far as the GUI you're asking for is concerned, that's still a very far way to go of course, but if you want code-centric SWF development you can get a great environment already -- actually, if that is your approach to making SWFs I'd say you're better off with Open Source tools now than you would be with the more designer centric original Flash IDE.

Check out osflash.org.
The Open Source Flash community is really taking off these days. You can create SWFs without any need for commercial products.
There's an Open Source Eclipse Plugin for ActionScript2 (ECMA262 v4 based, classes, interfaces, typing...), and you can use Ant to convert an XML to SWF with an OS tool, and then have your code compiled into it with an OS compiler.