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You're essentially claiming that you've developed a car that gets 150 miles per gallon.

Whoa. We're in the alternative energy business, not the car business. And we have made no performance claims other than our ability to cut our costs to ~50% of the competition, which is how we are able to make the offer we do.

Why do you ASSUME we do not have patentable technology and that we have not yet applied? You have no way of knowing. Private technology start-ups do not tell the world their secrets before they are ready to capitalize on them due to a little thing in the marketplace called "competition". Is this a new concept to you? Come on.

Who gave you this investment?

You'll see soon enough when the press release comes out. How arrogant of you to think you deserve to know before anyone else.

All you've proved is that Warren Buffet has terrible ethics

Really? I don't think so. If you knew anything about him, you'd know that it doesn't get more "real" than his investment style and strategy, and that he is a world-class, highly astute investor.

I tell ya what. After our press release comes out (very soon), I'd like you to re-post here with your opinion on our financing package, and how much you think the investor(s) were "scammed". You'll probably accuse them of not doing enough "due dilligence"! Hahaha...

You argue because you_cannot_comprehend the massive scale of what we are doing, and your small-mindedness will be shaken to reality soon. I ask you to PLEASE stick to the facts if you want to try to slam us, and I welcome all of your (failed) efforts to do so. Unfortunately, not one single person has even commented on my original challenge, let alone actually ATTEMPTED to point out ANY flaw (however small it may be) in the Independent Investment Advisor's Analysis.

I dare you to even try.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Once you see who has examined Citizenre fully (and invested $650,000,000), you will be embarrassed.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

With all of the negativity (and outright lies, misinformation, and disinformation based on flawed assumptions) floating around out there, not a SINGLE poster has once mentioned ANY flaws in the Independent Investment Advisor's Analysis. Not one.

How about that?

So much for critical analysis! Hahaha!!

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

What intention is that?

It is obvious to everyone that you'd like him to be a con artist so you can feel justified about slandering him. Do your homework. Professional criminals? See--now you're making up lies. Again--your intention is OBVIOUS.

You are claiming a technology revolution

Wake up, man. Solar power isn't exacly "bleeding edge" technology. It's about half a century old. We just happen to be the innovators. (Maybe that DOES make us revolutionaries!)

technology startups have significant funding and are happy to talk about their sources of funding to anyone who asks

Well, it's obvious you've never STARTED a company (though with your employee-like attitude, you may very well have worked for one--after their press release and unveiling of their technology in order to satiate your aversity to risk). You may have heard about our pre-announced $650M in funding, and if that's not "signicant" to you, well.....Bill? Warren? Is that you?

do not engage in multi-level marketing, which is a scam

Again, DO YOUR HOMEWORK! MLM is a $120B business. The world's largest cosmestics company is MLM. Many Fortune 100 companies (does it get any more REAL than them?) have and continue to use MLM. Warren Buffet bought the controlling interest of Pampered Chef, an MLM, in 2005. He said it was a brilliant business model. Who are you to argue?

What's the matter? Tried and failed? Those who show up win. Those who bitch and moan, bitch and moan.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

The "next" company? Citizenre IS the next company! I find it hilarious that you assume Citizenre is not legitimate. 5 years? You sound like that's what you are hoping for--you must be an old-school solar businessperson who realizes they cannot compete with our model.

Taking customers from old school solar businesses is inevitable, and again, does not hurt the business because customers decide to make an educated decision about selecting solar with the best financial terms. In just a few months, Citizenre has had almost 10,000 customers reserve a system. That's about a third of what the old-school establishment has done in 30 years. Tell me again how we're "hurting the industry"?

The key word in your post is "IF". All you need to do is have some patience. It doesn't matter if you're a skeptic, you will see what we are up to soon enough.

Of course we will have copycats once we unveil things--people always follow success (and what works).

As far as your mistaken assumption that we are simply looking to build a list of people--come on. Do you REALLY think that? Really? Because if you do you are diplaying your marketing naivete to the world. Buying a list of people is far simpler, faster, and more cost effective.

Citizenre does use MLM, and does so differently than any other organization in the world as far as I know (no $ changes hands).

As far as I'm concerned, activism through commerce is the most powerful method to change the status quo. I think you'll see in the future that the Citizenre sales network is one of the most powerful solar lobbies in the world. And soon.

The reality of what we're doing is more accurately described as turning businesspeople into solar activists.

I'm not quite sure what you are alluding to when you question my integrity, but I welcome a thorough examination and all the scrutiny you can muster.

Tell me how the "pricing structure" encourages dishonesty--PLEASE. All of our pricing is on our website for all to examine, and the price you'll be able to rent a system for is the same price you paid your utility in 2006. This is very simple, so I'm wondering how you confused yourself so thoroughly.

Sounds like someone's afraid of something...

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

A PhD'd Independent Investment Advisor's opinion and analysis of our model is hardly a brochure.

Don't misquote me (it makes you look foolish when people can see what I really said).

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer, British philosopher

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer, British philosopher

"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?'" - H. G. Wells

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

I was involved with Citizenre as an associate before Rob Styler came aboard, so if you'd like, you can feel free to call me a Citizenre pioneer--an independent sales leader, if you will. Ha.

Want to see ludicrous? Read what you wrote. Posters like yourself like to think they are saying something of substance, but unsubstantiated claims do not qualify as substance. Your intention is transparent. People here can see that.

Making statements like you have is generally never a good idea in public, especially when the people you are making statements about are people you do not know.

As far as the claims of the company are concerned, you must know something I don't, because I have never heard a claim of "100's of times more efficient as existing systems". I have heard the claim that we are able to reduce our costs by about 50%, which is how we are able to make our incredibly disruptive offer to the customers of the power industry--maybe you misread something. Please post a link to that claim for all to see. Please.

Yes, we are a technology start-up with information we are not publicly disclosing at this time--what's new about that?

"It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them." - Arthur C. Clarke, 1963

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Please don't lie about Citizenre, Anonymous Coward.

If you had a clue, you would have seen all the posts refuting your lies.

I would encourage you to read through the FRA and see the fine print for yourself (something you obviously have not done yet), and you will see that there is no investment required. None. THAT'S THE TRUTH.

May God bless your soul.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

for one successful dot-com we had a thousand who burned

Who's fault was that? The business model's or the incredible greed from the investors? ("Irrational Exuberance" sound familiar?)

I would rather be a professional russian roulette player

Hmmm. Well, to each their own, but I'd rather be a VC, personally. How many VC's "disappeared"? I can think of one. Again, it was the greedy little investors that made this happen--they made their capital available to some of the most mind-blowingly valueless organizations, and the investors were throwing darts at a wall.

Personally, I like the dotcom biz model, but Citizenre is not using it. We will have major assets that investors are helping to secure (RE, fatories, etc.), and our model is a lot more traditional that the dotcom model, but like all successful (dominant) businesses, we will certainly be tapping into the power of the Internet.

That's great that you are taking a "wait-and-see" attitude. I think you will.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

I could not be MORE genuine that stating UP FRONT that I am an associate with Citizenre.

I am an independent businessman and I work for myself--I am not employed by Citizenre, nor am I an official company representative. I represent myself in the marketplace, and offer their services as an Independent Direct Seller.

I'm curious how you think I could be more open and honest than that.

I am an associate and I am interested in profiting from the tidal wave of homeowners that we will be switching to solar. That's about as open and honest as I can be, but if you have any suggestions for further clarity, I'll certainly entertain them.

All the customers that have signed up on my web site (thanks for helping my sales spike, as most techies "get it") do not seem to have the identity issues you do: they know who I am and what I do and are happy that I can help them to switch to solar with such incredible terms and no risk on their part.

The only resentment I see is that which you are attempting to propagate.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

with all classical signs of a repackaged dot-com

Is that a new business model? Please explain. FYI--there are some pretty successful dotcoms out there that create incredible value for everyone involved in them, all because of an original vision and market timing. I have no problem being accused of being in the "dotcom" business. Do you?

Their numbers don't make sense...

You couldn't be more wrong. Please, everyone, before you jump to conclusions, do your homework and see what "the numbers" are--hit the last link in my first post. This stuff makes sense, and there's a lot of very intelligent, experienced businesspeople that have come to this conclusion after investigation.

their production facilities haven't been started

True--the first panels are slated to be coming off the line in early Q407, which is when you should expect to see the first installations as well, which is when you'll be able to see the hardware, although I believe there will be early beta models available for examination before then, although I'm not sure of this.

their investors are not known

True. Not yet. You'll just have to wait for the press release like everyone else.

and everything is "secret"

Is it? Really? You seem to know an awful lot about such a secret company. When is the last time you knew so much about a start-up this far before they went into production? You'll get your information when it is in the best interest of the company and the investors to give it to you.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Yes, you certainly are paranoid. You raise a lot of questions, and I will answer them here:

Citizenre's burn rate for the first year would be $2,000,000,000 (2bn) for 100,000 customers PLUS cost of plant, employees, marketing and other expenses. Where are they going to get this kind of cash??? Ah, that's where YOU come in :)

Please don't lie about Citizenre, because when you do, any further post you make will not be credible. Citizenre asks for no money from anyone--customers or associates. You need to explain where you get these numbers, but it really doesn't matter because your premise is flawed. So tell me again about raising money. As a licensed securities professional, I can tell you that it's illegal to go around and ask the public to invest in your company, and to my knowledge, this is not happening, so you are just plain wrong here. Show me I'm not.

So the finances make no sense...

You have obviously not done any homework here, because the finances make such absolute sense, that people that "get it" are scratching our heads why this hasn't happened already. Click the link at the end of my original post and educate yourself.

Re: Rob Styler

You, sir, need to read more about this gentleman before you attempt to sully a good man's name in a public forum such as this. If you did your homework, you would find that Mr. Styler walked away from a substantial residual income stream he spent many years building, and he was the lead witness against his former company in federal court. This is due to his integrity, and I admire him for it, because I believe he made the right decision, and I also believe that most people put their financial self-interest before their ethics (if they have them at all), and he is an example to behold in the business world. He is a man of integrity and a leader I will gladly follow today and tomorrow.

Re: scams

Yep, there are all kinds of scams out there--in EVERY industry and you will find the scammers in every walk of life. Every one of them. If this is news to anyone, I feel sorry for them. But to paint Citizenre with the same brush strokes as you used to tell the story of the examples you happen to know about is unfair. Give Citizenre a chance to show you what we are up to. And if you think you can demand information from a private company in the start-up phase before that company wants to give it to you, you are setting youself up for disappointment right off the bat.

Allegation of Ponzi/Pyramid scheme

Wikipedia: "A Ponzi scheme usually offers abnormally high short-term returns in order to entice new investors. The high returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises (and pays) require an ever-increasing flow of money from investors in order to keep the scheme going." "A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered." One question for you: where is the money coming from? Customers and associates are asked for no money. Please answer this.

Most likely they will lure people with promise of FREE solar panels on their roof but will try to get some poor souls to sign papers to co-own (where have you seen those words before?) the panels AND the loan that Citizenre will have to take out to pay for it.

That's pretty laughable for a number of reasons, but mainly because the FRA (Forward Rental Agreement) is available for anyone to inspect on our website righ now! Do some homework, and you will see how crazy your uninformed allegation is.

Seriously, if you want more info, do your homework, or shoot me an email, and I'll explain things to you and answer any questions you have.

Whew! Lighten up Man!

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

As soon as the landowner in the Gobi desert becomes a customer of a utility that is required to adhere to net-metering laws, I can see that happening.

PJ

PS--It's funny to me that you seem to be all about open-source and interested in disruptive technology that allows the "little guy" to have a competitive advantage in the software industry, or at least the ability to play on a level field, but you have such animosity towards those of us who are moving this vision forward in the solar industry with Citizenre, where every homeowner can recieve a system at_no_cost (sound familiar?), though they pay for their system's production (I suppose that would be "support" or "professional services" fees in the open-source software model). Interesting. Hmmm. Open-Source Solar--you heard it here first!

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

And maybe oil companies will offer you a free gas station when we are driving electric cars, too. Ha!

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Oh man, I'm still recovering from the AC's earlier reply. AC is right (no such thing as free power when there is an investment required: does_not_compute), but I'll try to explain it for you:

Why would anyone do this?

Answer:

1) No upfront investment.

2) No waiting for rebates.

3) No headaches with the city and the utility - We handle the engineering, procurement, and construction.

4) Performance-based contract means homeowners only pay for what is delivered and their total electricity cost will be locked in at a rate less than or equal to their current electricity bill.

5) Worry-Free Guarantee: real-time online system monitoring, maintenance, and repairs managed by our experts all at OUR COST.

6) Actual hedge against future utility price increases. Homeowners "lock-in" their electricity rate for 25 years. Most electric utilities are increasing their rates 5-30+% every year.

Make sense?

Lemme know if you have any other questions, and I'll be glad to try and answer them for you.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

You're kidding, right? If we wanted your information for whatever reason, there are hundreds of brokers out there today that will be glad to sell us millions of your personal details for a price. In fact, if you wanted a full breakdown of customer info, you're looking at just a couple bucks per name, and we've invested more than it would have cost to gather 8000 names into our website alone, which you would see if you visited it and had an idea of today's web development costs.

Maybe you should ask some of the customers that have signed up if they are recieving "solar spam"? Anyone?

You are so funny!

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Yes, my link http://www.qcimarketing.com/ is redirected to http://www.jointhesolution.com/olero/. QCIMarketing.com is easier for people to remember, so that's how I have it setup (I don't believe I'm the only one who uses a redirect on the Internet, do you?). Unseemly? You're kidding, right? If you really feel that way, then I'm sure the Fortune 1000 "seems" "unseemly" to you (and your miniscule "anti-redirect" group) then, too, right?

I'm sure you can understand these economics: Our costs are about half of our competition due to many reasons, supply-chain integration being one of them.

Who says we won't be selling them in the future? Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions...

As far as your comment on our website design, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure of the point you are making here (sounds like a personal web design preference to me), but we do have 3 main web functions: corporate information (http://www.citizenre.com/), customer information (http://www.jointhesolution.com/olero/), and associate information (http://www.powur.com/olero/).

Hope that helps explain things a little better for you.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Yes, my link http://www.qcimarketing.com/ is redirected to http://www.jointhesolution.com/olero/. QCIMarketing.com is easier for people to remember, so that's how I have it setup (I don't believe I'm the only one who uses a redirect on the Internet, do you?). Unseemly? You're kidding, right? If you really feel that way, then I'm sure the Fortune 1000 "seems" "unseemly" to you (and your miniscule "anti-redirect" group) then, too, right?

I'm sure you can understand these economics: Our costs are about half of our competition due to many reasons, supply-chain integration being one of them.

Who says we won't be selling them in the future? Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions...

As far as your comment on our website design, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure of the point you are making here (sounds like a personal web design preference to me), but we do have 3 main web functions: corporate information (http://www.citizenre.com/), customer information (http://www.jointhesolution.com/olero/), and associate information (http://www.powur.com/olero/).

Hope that helps explain things a little better for you.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

I'm not sure how more customers switching to solar "hurts" the solar industry as you assert, unless you mean the old (traditional, last year's) business model, since they cannot compete with the Citizenre model, but that's OK--innovation is good, and making others adapt to be even better and more efficient than this model would be a good thing all around for everyone in the solar business.

If you think someone will "have a bad taste in their mouth about solar panels in general" if Citizenre goes under and leaves a system on someone's roof & someone else collects the monthly revenue, then you live on a different planet than I do, since most people have sent their mortgage payments to more than one lender, and people didn't stop getting mortgages because of a new payment address.

Also, with the Citizenre model, it would take about half of our customers to stop paying their bills for 6 months--all at once, for us to have any financial stability issues. If you did your homework, you'd know this.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

"Buy the hardware, and the energy is free."

Except for the first half of your statement. Your "free" energy requires hardware up front in the form of a large investment that will not benefit the homeowner as much or as fast (financially) as it will benefit a commercial entity like The Citizenre Corporation.

But hey, if you have a spare $50,000 lying around, go for it! You'll be doing everyone a favor (unless you include your wallet).

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Did you even read the link I provided? The answers are there, and I offered them upfront, in the hope that someone would actually read the analysis, which it seems obvious, you have yet to do.

It's all explained for you how businesses are in a position to benefit more and faster than homeowners.

After you read it, I'd be willing to answer any other questions you may have.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Why would anyone do this?

1) No Investment

2) Good for the Environment

3) Locked-in lower ongoing costs than you will pay if you remain status quo (power from your utility)

4) The opportunity to zero out your monthly bill by referring others

When you look at it for what it really is, and stop projecting your fears and uninformed business analysis, you see that this is a no-brainer.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

I think what you meant to say was: "Typical answer from an informed, intelligent Associate of the company that soundly answered all questions raised in the response, even though the person trying to poke holes for who knows what reason never did answer the question posed by the orig. poster: can you see any problems with this analysis?"

Name calling is never productive, and doesn't make someone who you say they are, it just means that you're the kind of person who thinks they need to call people names.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Training materials? Really? They are actually a publishing company in disguise? That's an ingenious way to sell books (and a highy inefficient one, at that)!

Could you please post the link here so I can see their ecommerce site where they sell the materials? I've been looking for some!

As far as believing the statement that Citizenre takes on the financial risk, it's not a matter of belief. They are asking for zero money from anyone. How much did you invest into your employer before they gave you a job? Interesting.

As far as having to go to the Citizenre web site to become a Citizenre customer or associate, well, duh. I mean come on here. There are no fees for becoming either.

Do your homework.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Ever hear of Google? Ebay? Yahoo? Paypal? Ring any bells? They were just websites with simple online services, too. That's it. Nothing more.

Not to mention, they didn't have physical assets like real estate and factories when they were funded, but with your knowledge of VC's you probably knew that already.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

What bank do you work for? Be honest.

If you want to drop $50,000 on the typical system sized to meet 100% of the average US home's needs, be my guest, but that is a very poor financial decision.

In the last 3 decades, the current solar establishment has installed ~30,000 systems nationwide. Why haven't they been able to do more? Why don't people take your advice? Hint: $.

Do the math: Drop $50G's today, start paying interest, and MAYBE see ROI in what? 10yrs? 20yrs? Maybe. Or become a Citizenre customer and see ROI the moment your system is installed from interest accruing on the deposit and the fact that you can lock in 2006 rates today--even if your system isn't installed until 2008--and IF utilities drop their prices in fear (heh heh), we'll give you the better rate. If you have a $200/mo bill, you'll save a little over $17,000 (if the utilities raise their rates at 2.1% (inflation) annually, and some have already announced 30-50% increases just this year) with a 25 yr FRA, averaging out to ~$56/mo in savings, which, if invested properly, will have a pile of cash staring you in the face at the end of the contract (wanna talk retirement?)--not a 30-year-old piece of obsolescence you must spend money on to replace.

And as far as your concerns with lifetime slavery go, you can cancel your agreement with Citizenre the instant you see the ColdFusionator 5000 infomercial on TV for 3 easy payments of $9.99 (or any other technological breakthrough that results in a more cost and energy efficient method of getting power to your home), and you simply forfeit your deposit (~$500). Most homeowners can handle that. Most can't handle losing $50,000--even those that can would obviously rather not if there's a better hedge in the market. Getting paid interest is always better than paying it. Let's get real here.

As far a property values go, it is true that Citizenre owns the system, and there is not added asset value because of it, but there is intrinsic value in the Forward Rental Agreement if you want to transfer it to the new owner (if you don't want to take it with you and keep your 2006 rate, since we'll move it to your new home once for free--it's a little more expensive if you own the system). In fact, if you sold your house in 10 years and your monthly bill is lower than your neighbor's, you have a real financial value advantage to offer a prospective buyer, with zero extra costs for monitoring, maintenance, and repairs (like they would incur if the system was purchased).

If you want to put Citizenre and Google on the same level (you call us both "fly-by-night"--see here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=222842&cid=180 45560/) I'm OK with that. It's obvious you took a swing without doing your homework, and I'm OK with that. If I ever have the opportunity to "fly-by-night" like Google does, I'm capitalizing on the opportunity every time.

One more thing--the deposit is due when the equipment is in your neighborhood and you've been reading about us in the news for months and we've become the Google of the solar business and we've put serious time and effort into helping you switch to solar (you'll see our efforts)--there is no financial obligation to reserve your system today. (It takes less than a minute, and you can do it at the link below. Yes, I am an associate.) I'd love to help educate you further if you have any other questions.

PJ

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

Good Question Nick--You get 5% of your referrals' monthly bill. So if you do the math, you can see it would take 20 folks with a bill the same size as yours to zero out your monthly bill. It's that simple.

Ask your current power company if they'll do that!

http://www.qcimarketing.com/

It's funny to me how negative even the nerds are--this is the last place I would have thought I'd see this attitude, but as always, the techies fear the sales guys (OOOOOhhhhhhh--MLM!). I mean for crying out loud--an 18-month-old website just sold for almost $2 BILLION dollars, and although looking at stupid videos might be a good way to pass the time at the office for folks stuck in front of their computer all day, it ain't gonna change the world. I think Citizenre will (full disclosure - I signed up to be an associate - http://www.qcimarketing.com/, and I think the naysayers will be put in their place in the next month or so when the press release comes out. You'll have your questions answered then. I don't know if any of you people remember a little thing called the "Dotcom Era"? Anyone? If you're a tech person and you were working then, you remember the incredible level of secrecy around even the most duplicated business plans, and nobody would even dare to think about "opening the kimono" about their plans to anyone--even investors--without an iron-clad NDA. Why would you expect Citizenre to? With such an incredibly disruptive business model to today's energy industry--especially the traditional solar guys (who CANNOT compete with our model--EVER), and with many big-caps with big pockets who can see themselves making a few bucks in this $296 Billion market by simply copying us, I hope you people have the requisite 2c to rub together when it comes to just plain old business common sense. We may have announced $650 million in funding, but let's be honest here--there's a LOT more where that came from. Timing is everything here. I'm a NASD licensed former floor-trader (private fund--not a stockbroker), start-up business consultant, and C-Level Sales Shark, and I "get" the numbers, and they work. In fact, you can take a look at a PhD'd Independent Investment Advisor's analysis of our plan (I'm in CO like he is, but I've never met him, FYI) here: http://tomkonrad.wordpress.com/2006/12/13/102/ - if you see any flaws in that analysis, let me know! That's my 2c. PJ